Zone1 Predatory Capitalism

[gipper]

But not something stupid. That won't help.

It seems to work well in Western Europe and elsewhere.

PS. Medicare is a government program most Americans find effective.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Nope. Not buyin.

I'm not selling. I'm just preparing you for what's coming.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Without saying so I think you mean workers taking over an established company

But I cant think of situations were a group of blue collar workers started a company from scratch and making a go of it

Not many here in the US. In the UK there are thousands of worker-owned businesses:

and in Spain:



Here in the States there are a few:


​

The SBA (Small Business Administration) doesn't support the launch of worker-owned cooperatives and neither do the banks. Workers in the US, generally, have to start cooperatives by pooling their money together.

 

[Mac-7]

Workers have to start businesses by pooling their money together.

Thats how capitalism works

Neither a sole proprietorship or a worker coop needs my permission to give it a go

But all the stories I see here involve relatively simple small grocery or deli operations that dont involve large capital investments

Which is ok, but you cant drive an economy on just that

 

[TruthNotBS]

Nope. Replacing a handful of corrupt corporations who are in bed with government, with one corrupt corporation run by government solves nothing.

At least with our government, we have elections and a vote, despite living in a plutocracy. We need to enact laws that severely punish government corruption, reducing if not eliminating all of the cronyism, that is undermining our democracy. There are certain industries and services that should be publicly owned, and whatever revenue is generated, should be allocated/reinvested into that company or deposited in the public treasury.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Thats how capitalism works

Neither a sole proprietorship or a worker coop needs my permission to give it a go

But all the stories I see here involve relatively simple small grocery or deli operations that dont involve large capital investments

Which is ok, but you cant drive an economy on just that

I believe the government should support worker-owned cooperatives through its SBA and through other means. Maybe support local and state governments, to fund the launching of worker-owned cooperatives. Such a drive doesn't exist now. Actually, the system in a way, is rigged against facilitating workers to start cooperatives.

 

[TruthNotBS]

It seems to work well in Western Europe and elsewhere.

PS. Medicare is a government program most Americans find effective.

President Bush tried to privatize Medicare. They're sneaky, in the way they privatize these programs. They'll introduce another program, that is "supplementing" the government program, in bed with private companies, and before you know it, the whole program is privatized and services go down the tubes. You pay more and you get less.

 

[dblack]

At least with our government, we have elections and a vote, despite living in a plutocracy.

We can do better than "least". Combining economic power with state power places far too much power in far too few hands.

We need to enact laws that severely punish government corruption, reducing if not eliminating all of the cronyism, that is undermining our democracy.

So, you expect a corrupt government to enforce severe laws punishing government corruption? Do go on ...

 

[gipper]

President Bush tried to privatize Medicare. They're sneaky, in the way they privatize these programs. They'll introduce another program, that is "supplementing" the government program, in bed with private companies, and before you know it, the whole program is privatized and services go down the tubes. You pay more and you get less.

Like Obamacare. O the corporatist had to appease Wall Street and big pharma, resulting in big contributions to the D Party. What a guy.

 

[TruthNotBS]

We can do better than "least". Combining economic power with state power places far too much power in far too few hands.

So, you expect a corrupt government to enforce severe laws punishing government corruption? Do go on ...

The government already has economic power. It's the exclusive issuer of the USD, a sovereign fiat currency:

​

The government doesn't need to extract power from capitalists. It's the source of power, that's why capitalists do everything they can to control it, often at the expense of the public.

How do you figure that it's better to give all of our resources and public services to a billionaire or a small group of wealthy capitalists? I prefer to place the major centers of economic power, those industries that are vital to our infrastructure and national security, in the hands of the American people through their government. Publicly owned and run. The benefit of that is that it's legally owned collectively, by the American people, hence the profits are deposited in the public treasury or the public's "checking account" at the FED.

That money can be reinvested into the company and also used for other things, like healthcare, education, and rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. Modernizing our electric grid, laying high-speed rail, and building safe, clean nuclear electric plants. With all of the flaws of the US government, I trust it more, than a capitalist, privately owned multinational corporation. These corporations get billions of dollars in subsidies and bailouts from the government (federal, state and local):

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE.	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,136,286,466	946
2	Intel	$8,371,896,017	133
3	Ford Motor	$7,761,916,195	815
4	General Motors	$7,594,509,872	990
5	Micron Technology	$6,785,681,915	18
6	Alcoa	$5,798,600,778	160
7	X-Energy LLC	$5,661,511,202	17
8	General Atomics	$5,465,529,295	438
9	Cheniere Energy	$5,431,565,870	41
10	Amazon.com	$5,051,773,349	332
11	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,827,036,483	76
12	Sempra Energy	$3,835,098,001	53
13	Southern Company	$3,783,360,569	130
14	NRG Energy	$3,586,516,301	268
15	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
16	NextEra Energy	$3,003,823,754	117
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,836,366,619	116
18	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
19	Stellantis	$2,800,442,867	230
20	Volkswagen	$2,740,983,143	222
21	General Electric	$2,529,193,561	1,668
22	Nucor	$2,514,358,340	158
23	Walt Disney	$2,421,304,588	248
24	Brookfield Asset Management	$2,339,430,278	304
25	Iberdrola	$2,285,768,043	112
26	Summit Power	$2,240,568,236	8
27	Shell PLC	$2,184,517,527	141
28	Oracle	$2,167,890,528	88
29	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
30	Nike	$2,104,917,829	138
31	Hyundai Motor	$2,072,957,848	27
32	SCS Energy	$1,927,236,683	10
33	Archer Daniels Midland	$1,920,305,787	1,099
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,891,153,489	207
35	NuScale Power	$1,880,780,589	34
36	Toyota	$1,864,826,689	198
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,859,775,471	1,158
38	Nissan	$1,842,314,165	86
39	Alphabet Inc.	$1,832,565,977	116
40	Paramount Global	$1,751,801,882	317
41	Apple Inc.	$1,750,043,420	36
42	Comcast	$1,722,467,426	376
43	JPMorgan Chase	$1,663,890,873	1,129
44	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,654,401,303	137
45	Energy Transfer	$1,634,074,422	106
46	Samsung	$1,586,310,806	70
47	PG&E Corp.	$1,568,027,901	27
48	IBM Corp.	$1,562,738,626	387
49	SkyWest	$1,550,492,958	683
50	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,532,854,012	3
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	Panasonic	$1,385,969,341	61
53	Raytheon Technologies	$1,322,899,721	952
54	Duke Energy	$1,318,084,164	69
55	Lockheed Martin	$1,302,847,415	337
56	Corning Inc.	$1,272,628,059	395
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,266,804,354	266
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,243,857,336	32
61	Microsoft	$1,153,690,869	103
62	Jefferies Financial Group	$1,120,662,497	18
63	Meta Platforms Inc.	$1,105,098,844	53
64	Dow Inc.	$1,091,152,544	686
65	Abengoa	$1,082,660,583	63
66	LG	$1,055,690,737	103
67	Valero Energy	$1,054,520,860	199
68	Exelon	$1,040,601,369	98
69	AES Corp.	$1,010,194,632	132
70	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
71	Pyramid Companies	$966,050,097	91
72	EDF-Electricite de France	$940,247,983	65
73	Texas Instruments	$940,071,436	60
74	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
75	Air Products & Chemicals	$897,651,105	248
76	Delta Air Lines	$876,412,623	14
77	Centene	$875,064,432	54
78	Bayer	$849,175,809	202
79	Honda	$846,026,154	91
80	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	83
81	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$826,062,285	104
82	SunEdison	$812,753,318	119
83	Apollo Global Management	$804,565,970	471
84	Goldman Sachs	$801,573,386	255
85	E.ON	$782,609,880	38
86	Wolfspeed Inc.	$773,681,732	88
87	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
88	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
89	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$725,632,525	206
90	Gotion	$715,000,000	1
91	American Electric Power	$699,673,821	92
92	Bank of America	$698,760,073	919
93	Johnson Controls	$691,180,720	144
94	Related Companies	$687,200,000	1
95	Caithness Energy	$670,379,738	28
96	Hyannis Air Service Inc.	$667,928,778	296
97	Koch Industries	$662,557,530	486
98	Sagamore Development	$660,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy

​

Our government serves the interests and needs of the capitalists, often at the expense of the public. These wealthy elitists hate the idea of the government being used to serve the public good. They demonize the government, pretending it's inherently evil and "inefficient" , completely "corrupted", while they're the ones corrupting it with their armies of lobbyists legally bribing our politicians. They're using their super PACs to mold the government into their own image, to serve them. Have a working-class person express that he wants his government to serve his working-class interests and that person is accused of being a bum, who wants to rely on the so-called "nanny state". It's actually the big-money capitalists who love the "nanny".

 

[dblack]

The government already has economic power. It's the exclusive issuer of the USD, a sovereign fiat currency.

Yet you want to give them more.

It's bad idea. When the corrupt corporations and the law play for the same team, we're out of options.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yet you want to give them more.

It's bad idea. When the corrupt corporations and the law play for the same team, we're out of options.

We can't give them more, they already have it. They issue the dollar.

The government is a social apparatus, organized by us, the American people, to manage our large-scale projects and socioeconomic, civil affairs. Its function is to serve us, and we can employ it for that purpose, by participating in its elections and being vigilant and responsible. Keeping government officials accountable by only voting for those who serve the public good. We can't do that with EXXON or AT&T, but we can do that with our government. That's why it's better to nationalize the industries that are vital to our nation's infrastructure and national security, rather than placing them in private hands. I prefer all of those resources to be in the hands of the public.

 

[dblack]

We can't give them more, they already have it.

No. They don't have all the power. Yet. If they did, you wouldn't be here arguing for more.

When will it be enough?

 

[Mac-7]

I believe the government should support worker-owned cooperatives through its SBA and through other means. Maybe support local and state governments, to fund the launching of worker-owned cooperatives. Such a drive doesn't exist now. Actually, the system in a way, is rigged against facilitating workers to start cooperatives.

Thats a bad idea

If they cant make it on their own then they dont deserve to make it

 

[TruthNotBS]

No. They don't have all the power. Yet. If they did, you wouldn't be here arguing for more.

When will it be enough?

You're ignoring all of my points and reacting to my posts, the moment you read something you disagree with in the first sentence. You need to read everything I said. You prefer to place the resources that belong to the American people, as a nation, in the hands of a billionaire, having him own and control everything. Our government is ours, and we have more control over it legally and through a democratic process than we do over private corporations.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Thats a bad idea

If they cant make it on their own then they dont deserve to make it

The rich that you love and worship, don't make it on their own. They get plenty of help from the government, in the way of interest-free loans, grants, subsidies, tax cuts, tax rebates, contracts, facilities, expert advice, and of course the bailouts. The government can do all of that for your beloved billionaires (who you aspire to become), but if ten workers want to start a worker-owned cooperative, and need a loan, you're against them getting any assistance from the SBA (Small Business Administration) or a government grant. Only private companies can get help, not worker-owned cooperatives. Your sentiments are RICH.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE.	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,136,286,466	946
2	Intel	$8,371,896,017	133
3	Ford Motor	$7,761,916,195	815
4	General Motors	$7,594,509,872	990
5	Micron Technology	$6,785,681,915	18
6	Alcoa	$5,798,600,778	160
7	X-Energy LLC	$5,661,511,202	17
8	General Atomics	$5,465,529,295	438
9	Cheniere Energy	$5,431,565,870	41
10	Amazon.com	$5,051,773,349	332
11	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,827,036,483	76
12	Sempra Energy	$3,835,098,001	53
13	Southern Company	$3,783,360,569	130
14	NRG Energy	$3,586,516,301	268
15	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
16	NextEra Energy	$3,003,823,754	117
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,836,366,619	116
18	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
19	Stellantis	$2,800,442,867	230
20	Volkswagen	$2,740,983,143	222
21	General Electric	$2,529,193,561	1,668
22	Nucor	$2,514,358,340	158
23	Walt Disney	$2,421,304,588	248
24	Brookfield Asset Management	$2,339,430,278	304
25	Iberdrola	$2,285,768,043	112
26	Summit Power	$2,240,568,236	8
27	Shell PLC	$2,184,517,527	141
28	Oracle	$2,167,890,528	88
29	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
30	Nike	$2,104,917,829	138
31	Hyundai Motor	$2,072,957,848	27
32	SCS Energy	$1,927,236,683	10
33	Archer Daniels Midland	$1,920,305,787	1,099
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,891,153,489	207
35	NuScale Power	$1,880,780,589	34
36	Toyota	$1,864,826,689	198
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,859,775,471	1,158
38	Nissan	$1,842,314,165	86
39	Alphabet Inc.	$1,832,565,977	116
40	Paramount Global	$1,751,801,882	317
41	Apple Inc.	$1,750,043,420	36
42	Comcast	$1,722,467,426	376
43	JPMorgan Chase	$1,663,890,873	1,129
44	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,654,401,303	137
45	Energy Transfer	$1,634,074,422	106
46	Samsung	$1,586,310,806	70
47	PG&E Corp.	$1,568,027,901	27
48	IBM Corp.	$1,562,738,626	387
49	SkyWest	$1,550,492,958	683
50	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,532,854,012	3
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	Panasonic	$1,385,969,341	61
53	Raytheon Technologies	$1,322,899,721	952
54	Duke Energy	$1,318,084,164	69
55	Lockheed Martin	$1,302,847,415	337
56	Corning Inc.	$1,272,628,059	395
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,266,804,354	266
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,243,857,336	32
61	Microsoft	$1,153,690,869	103
62	Jefferies Financial Group	$1,120,662,497	18
63	Meta Platforms Inc.	$1,105,098,844	53
64	Dow Inc.	$1,091,152,544	686
65	Abengoa	$1,082,660,583	63
66	LG	$1,055,690,737	103
67	Valero Energy	$1,054,520,860	199
68	Exelon	$1,040,601,369	98
69	AES Corp.	$1,010,194,632	132
70	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
71	Pyramid Companies	$966,050,097	91
72	EDF-Electricite de France	$940,247,983	65
73	Texas Instruments	$940,071,436	60
74	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
75	Air Products & Chemicals	$897,651,105	248
76	Delta Air Lines	$876,412,623	14
77	Centene	$875,064,432	54
78	Bayer	$849,175,809	202
79	Honda	$846,026,154	91
80	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	83
81	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$826,062,285	104
82	SunEdison	$812,753,318	119
83	Apollo Global Management	$804,565,970	471
84	Goldman Sachs	$801,573,386	255
85	E.ON	$782,609,880	38
86	Wolfspeed Inc.	$773,681,732	88
87	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
88	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
89	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$725,632,525	206
90	Gotion	$715,000,000	1
91	American Electric Power	$699,673,821	92
92	Bank of America	$698,760,073	919
93	Johnson Controls	$691,180,720	144
94	Related Companies	$687,200,000	1
95	Caithness Energy	$670,379,738	28
96	Hyannis Air Service Inc.	$667,928,778	296
97	Koch Industries	$662,557,530	486
98	Sagamore Development	$660,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy

 

[dblack]

AYou're ignoring all of my points and reacting to my posts, the moment you read something you disagree with in the first sentence.

Sorry, but the rest is bullshit. If you post something more interesting than the usual socialist propaganda, I'll respond to it.

You need to read everything I said. You prefer to place the resources that belong to the American people, as a nation, in the hands of a billionaire, having him own and control everything. Our government is ours, and we have more control over it legally and through a democratic process than we do over private corporations.

With everything you're talking about (when you say "our" and "we", etc ...) - you're not talking about all of us. You're talking about the majority. In particular, the majority forcing their will on everyone else, via the government. That's the primary danger of democracy. The founders of our nation recognized this danger and tried to limit the power of the government and protect individual rights. They were right. You are wrong.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Sorry, but the rest is bullshit. If you post something more interesting than the usual socialist propaganda, I'll respond to it.

With everything you're talking about (when you say "our" and "we", etc ...) - you're not talking about all of us. You're talking about the majority. In particular, the majority forcing it's will on everyone else via the government. That's the primary danger of democracy. The founders of our nation recognized this danger and tried to limit the power of the government and protect individual rights. They were right. You are wrong.

The individual rights of every citizen are protected in a democracy, including the rights of the minority. I prefer the rule of the majority over the rule of a small minority of self-serving capitalists. You prefer the rich ruling over everybody else, at their expense, whereas I prefer the vast majority of people ruling over their government and making sure their government serves their interests, not the financial interests of a few billionaires.

Everyone's legitimate rights are protected in a civil democracy, so your concerns are cynical and disingenuous.

 

[Mac-7]

but if ten workers want to start a worker-owned cooperative, and need a loan, you're against them getting any assistance from the SBA (Small Business Administration) or a government grant.

No government grants

Screw that

If the workers sign for a loan and are personally on the hook then they will get the same consideration as an individual small business owner

But no handouts

 

[TruthNotBS]

No government grants

Screw that

If the workers sign for a loan and are personally on the hook then they will get the same consideration as an individual small business owner

But no handouts

Why no grants? Do big companies get handouts and assistance? Moreover, why not give preference to democratically run, worker-owned cooperatives? They're democratic, they're not being run like a totalitarian state, with a little dictator sitting at the top, throwing orders around without accountability. All of the leadership in a cooperative is elected by the workers, through a democratic process and is accountable to the workers, who work the enterprise. They should get a preference from the government for contracts and other opportunities. That's the way to replace the authoritarians, the little dictators.

If it's good for America, for our economy, to have more worker-owned cooperatives serving their communities, heck, why not have the government help them get on their feet? Grants, subsidies, and bailouts are given to your wealthy buddies quite often, on a regular basis.

RANK	PARENT	SUBSIDY VALUE.	NUMBER OF AWARDS
1	Boeing	$15,136,286,466	946
2	Intel	$8,371,896,017	133
3	Ford Motor	$7,761,916,195	815
4	General Motors	$7,594,509,872	990
5	Micron Technology	$6,785,681,915	18
6	Alcoa	$5,798,600,778	160
7	X-Energy LLC	$5,661,511,202	17
8	General Atomics	$5,465,529,295	438
9	Cheniere Energy	$5,431,565,870	41
10	Amazon.com	$5,051,773,349	332
11	Foxconn Technology Group (Hon Hai Precision Industry Company)	$4,827,036,483	76
12	Sempra Energy	$3,835,098,001	53
13	Southern Company	$3,783,360,569	130
14	NRG Energy	$3,586,516,301	268
15	Venture Global LNG	$3,285,883,566	6
16	NextEra Energy	$3,003,823,754	117
17	Tesla Inc.	$2,836,366,619	116
18	Sasol	$2,836,049,845	72
19	Stellantis	$2,800,442,867	230
20	Volkswagen	$2,740,983,143	222
21	General Electric	$2,529,193,561	1,668
22	Nucor	$2,514,358,340	158
23	Walt Disney	$2,421,304,588	248
24	Brookfield Asset Management	$2,339,430,278	304
25	Iberdrola	$2,285,768,043	112
26	Summit Power	$2,240,568,236	8
27	Shell PLC	$2,184,517,527	141
28	Oracle	$2,167,890,528	88
29	Mubadala Investment Company	$2,124,035,097	62
30	Nike	$2,104,917,829	138
31	Hyundai Motor	$2,072,957,848	27
32	SCS Energy	$1,927,236,683	10
33	Archer Daniels Midland	$1,920,305,787	1,099
34	Exxon Mobil	$1,891,153,489	207
35	NuScale Power	$1,880,780,589	34
36	Toyota	$1,864,826,689	198
37	Berkshire Hathaway	$1,859,775,471	1,158
38	Nissan	$1,842,314,165	86
39	Alphabet Inc.	$1,832,565,977	116
40	Paramount Global	$1,751,801,882	317
41	Apple Inc.	$1,750,043,420	36
42	Comcast	$1,722,467,426	376
43	JPMorgan Chase	$1,663,890,873	1,129
44	Cleveland-Cliffs	$1,654,401,303	137
45	Energy Transfer	$1,634,074,422	106
46	Samsung	$1,586,310,806	70
47	PG&E Corp.	$1,568,027,901	27
48	IBM Corp.	$1,562,738,626	387
49	SkyWest	$1,550,492,958	683
50	Rivian Automotive Inc.	$1,532,854,012	3
51	OGE Energy	$1,427,570,182	15
52	Panasonic	$1,385,969,341	61
53	Raytheon Technologies	$1,322,899,721	952
54	Duke Energy	$1,318,084,164	69
55	Lockheed Martin	$1,302,847,415	337
56	Corning Inc.	$1,272,628,059	395
57	Northrop Grumman	$1,266,804,354	266
58	Vingroup	$1,254,000,000	1
59	Continental AG	$1,244,875,478	111
60	Vornado Realty Trust	$1,243,857,336	32
61	Microsoft	$1,153,690,869	103
62	Jefferies Financial Group	$1,120,662,497	18
63	Meta Platforms Inc.	$1,105,098,844	53
64	Dow Inc.	$1,091,152,544	686
65	Abengoa	$1,082,660,583	63
66	LG	$1,055,690,737	103
67	Valero Energy	$1,054,520,860	199
68	Exelon	$1,040,601,369	98
69	AES Corp.	$1,010,194,632	132
70	CF Industries	$982,271,715	129
71	Pyramid Companies	$966,050,097	91
72	EDF-Electricite de France	$940,247,983	65
73	Texas Instruments	$940,071,436	60
74	Mazda Toyota Manufacturing, U.S.A., Inc.	$900,000,000	1
75	Air Products & Chemicals	$897,651,105	248
76	Delta Air Lines	$876,412,623	14
77	Centene	$875,064,432	54
78	Bayer	$849,175,809	202
79	Honda	$846,026,154	91
80	Enterprise Products Partners	$826,988,371	83
81	Shin-Etsu Chemical	$826,062,285	104
82	SunEdison	$812,753,318	119
83	Apollo Global Management	$804,565,970	471
84	Goldman Sachs	$801,573,386	255
85	E.ON	$782,609,880	38
86	Wolfspeed Inc.	$773,681,732	88
87	Triple Five Worldwide	$748,000,000	4
88	EDP-Energias de Portugal	$733,674,868	14
89	Warner Bros. Discovery Inc.	$725,632,525	206
90	Gotion	$715,000,000	1
91	American Electric Power	$699,673,821	92
92	Bank of America	$698,760,073	919
93	Johnson Controls	$691,180,720	144
94	Related Companies	$687,200,000	1
95	Caithness Energy	$670,379,738	28
96	Hyannis Air Service Inc.	$667,928,778	296
97	Koch Industries	$662,557,530	486
98	Sagamore Development	$660,000,000	1
99	Dominion Energy	$640,858,559	64