Promoting Islamophobia

[toxicmedia]

Thank you....you just proved to me you're crazy

And you just proved to me that you're about as ignorant as a redneck when it comes to the history of Turkey and the Middle East. Like I said, your limited exposure in Turkey didn't count because you A- were in a very secular reformed country, with an anti Islamization culture in it's past, and B- Weren't really in touch with any minorities, so how the fuck would you know what the Muslim majority was doing to them?

Good news is I'm not going to charge you for this free education, dufus. Here's what is happening to all the reforms that Attaturk had brought about. Telling the truth isn't crazy. Ignoring it is:

4 Jarring Signs of Turkey s Growing Islamization - The Atlantic

Turn right at the omelet," said the gas-station attendant. We were standing on the outskirts of Edirne, a small city about two hours north of Istanbul. My Turkish is poor so I turned for help to my Turkish friend.

"Omelet?" I asked.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques constructed by the government since 2002.
"He meant outlet," he said, as in outlet mall. On today's Turkish highways, outlet malls are more common than caravanserais or roadside inns once were on the Silk Road. The malls are just one sign of the economic boom that is bringing western consumerism to the masses. Arriving in Istanbul from one of the phlegmatic economies of Europe or even from the United States is a jolt. Drive around western or central Turkey and you'll see new roads, high rises, and construction sites everywhere. Much of it comes from Middle Eastern oil money, much of it reinvested into industries such as automobile manufacture, textile, and food production. A recent trip revealed a Turkey that is wealthier than ever in its modern history.

And yet, the gas jockey had it right. For the average person, Westernization is about as deep as the difference between "omelet" and "outlet." The Turkish government wouldn't have it any other way. The Justice and Development Party (AKP) has been in power for more than ten years, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in charge for most of them. Their goal is change. They want to make Turkey wealthy and Islamic. They have turned from the vaguely socialist policies of their predecessors to crony capitalism, and from the staunchly secular and pro-western policies established by Ataturk, the Republic's founder, to religious and Muslim-world-centered policies. They have abandoned Ataturk's non-interventionist stance for an active role in Egypt, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and now Syria.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques built by the government since 2002. The state is planning an enormous mosque, more than 150,000 square feet in size, to loom over Istanbul on a hill on the Asian side of the Bosphorus. Secularists are outraged, and an opposition leader, Republican People's Party (CHP) MP Mehmet Ali Ediboglu, calls this just another step in a process that, he claims, will end in an Islamic republic.

Whither Turkey? Erdogan's visit to Washington last week is a reminder of how important that question is. President Barack Obama has called Turkey a critical ally and has spoken of his friendship for the Turkish leader. Yet Erdogan is trying to change the Turkish constitution from a parliamentary to a presidential system -- with the hope, of course, that he will be the president. His opponent's charge that Erdogan's model is Russia's Putin, a virtual dictator by legal means.

A visitor can only wonder where Erdogan's country is headed. Consider four scenes from the road:

1) Lecturing in a public university on Turkey's western coast -- the country's secular region -- I saw a small but significant number of women wearing headscarves. The government not long ago overturned a ban on headscarves in public places. From the American point of view, that seems like a good thing and a move in favor of religious freedom. Turkish secularists, however, consider it the thin end of a wedge.

2) In Amasya in north-central Turkey sits the graceful Kapiaga Madrasa. It was built in the sixteenth century by Sultan Bayezit II, an enlightened ruler who welcomed Jews and Muslims expelled from Spain in 1492. The octagonal structure is constructed around a central, arcaded courtyard. A visitor encounters what sounds at first like the buzzing of bees. In fact, it is boys studying religious texts.

The day I saw the madrasa I was wearing a baseball cap purchased earlier at a Turkish naval museum. It was decorated with a Turkish flag and a historic warship. The students looked at me with a certain aloof surprise. I didn't realize that I was making a political statement, but my Turkish friend explained that the symbol was nationalist and secular in their eyes.

3) On the way to Edirne, we drove past the exit to Silivri. A summer resort, Silivri is also home to a huge prison. It houses hundreds of top military officers along with journalists, lawyers, and members of Parliament accused of plotting against the government. It is Turkey's answer to the Bastille, the notorious jail for political prisoners in pre-revolutionary France. With 47 reporters incarcerated, Turkey has been called the world's leading jailer of journalists.

4) Arriving in Istanbul at night after a trip to the Anatolian heartland, my friend drove down Baghdad Avenue -- the Rodeo Drive of Istanbul. Rock music and short skirts were on order, not headscarves and religious chanting. Political prisoners seemed far away. But the boys in the madrasa will soon be adults and the women in headscarves will be college graduates. What kind of a country will they build, I wondered, when they come to Istanbul and look up at its grand new mosque? And what will Turkey's future mean for Americans and our own long and troubled quest to build better relations with Muslim countries?

Erdogan resurrects debates of Islamization
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/09/193621.html

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s comment that his government wants to “raise a religious youth” has touched a nerve in society, fuelling debates over an alleged “hidden agenda” to Islamize secular Turkey.

“We want to raise a religious youth,” said Erdogan, himself a graduate of a clerical school and the leader of the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), during a parliamentary address last week.

“Do you expect the conservative democrat AK Party to raise an atheist generation? That might be your business, your mission, but not ours. We will raise a conservative and democratic generation embracing the nation’s values and principles,” he added.


Erdogan’s remarks drew strong criticism from the staunchly secular Republican People’s Party (CHP) founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, with its leader calling him a “religion-monger.”

“It is a sin to garner votes over religion. You are not religious but a religion-monger,” said Kemal Kilicdaroglu, accusing Erdogan of polarizing the country by touching its faultlines.

“I’m asking the prime minister: what can I do if I don’t want my child to be raised as religious and conservative?” wrote prominent liberal commentator Hasan Cemal in Milliyet daily.

“If you are going to train a religious and conservative generation in schools, what will happen to my child?” he asked.

Columnist Mehmet Ali Birand also criticized Erdogan this week in an article titled, “The race for piety will be our end.”

“What does it mean, really, that the state raises religious youth? Is this the first step towards a religious state?” he wrote in Hurriyet Daily News.

Erdogan must explain what he meant, otherwise a dangerous storm may erupt and go as far as fights about being religious versus being godless, he argued.

Neither religious nor political uniformity can be imposed on Turkey given regional, ethnic and sectarian diversity in the country, wrote Semih Idiz in Milliyet daily on Tuesday.

He said millions of people “have subscribed to secular lifestyles” even before the republic.

Erdogan’s AKP has been in power since 2002 and won a third term with nearly 50 percent of the vote in the 2011 elections, securing 325 seats in the 550-member parliament.

But since then the influence of the military, considered as guardian of secularism, has waned.

Dozens of retired and active army officers, academics, journalists and lawyers have been put behind bars in probes into alleged plots against Erdogan’s government.

Critics accuse the government of launching the probes as a tool to silence opponents and impose authoritarianism.

Secular quarters argue Erdogan’s conservative government is also step by step imposing religion in every aspect of life, saying many restaurants already refuse to serve alcohol during Ramadan.

They also criticize recent changes to legislation under which religious school graduates will now be able to access any university branch they like, while in the past they had only access to theology schools.

Birand expressed fears that the changes would not be confined to this and would lead to censorship in television broadcasts.

The Turkish television watchdog RTUK “will restrict all kissing scenes; they will confuse pornography with explicit broadcast and all television screens will be made pious,” he added.

“Then will come religious foundations. After them, it will be municipalities. All kinds of Koran teaching courses, legal or illegal, will mushroom.”

Observers say Erdogan’s message contradicts what he had said during a recent tour of Arab Spring countries, in September.

“As Recep Tayyip Erdogan I am a Muslim but not secular. But I am a prime minister of a secular country. People have the freedom to choose whether or not to be religious in a secular regime,” he said in an interview with an Egyptian TV, published by Turkish daily Vatan.

“The constitution in Turkey defines secularism as the state’s equal distance to every religion,” he said in remarks that provoked criticism from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

None of the Turkish people I know would have any idea what you're talking about.

It's easy to be as far from reality as you are, having never lived with Muslims

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Pretty much these dudes.

 

[toxicmedia]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

The depth of ignorance shown by those who try to claim some sort of expertise can get downright laughable at times, can't it?

First, he displays that he is completely ignorant of the notion of apostasy. Now, it is aniconism.

I await his next display of utter lack of knowledge most avidly.

Did I ever claim expertise on that crap?

I only stated I don't care, and none of the Muslims I met in the middle east talk about that.

 

[Coyote]

]I'm sure you had to look up how to spell rescind.

Are you familiar with the psychological concept of "projection"?

I'm sorry you feel so inadequate. Those college boys making more money than you, being smarter than you...must be tough

An actual example of projection would be when antisemitic pieces of excrement like Coyote run around calling people bigoted racists for resisting the totalitarian ideology that is responsible for so much of it.

Must have hit a nerve

 

[toxicmedia]

Thank you....you just proved to me you're crazy

And you just proved to me that you're about as ignorant as a redneck when it comes to the history of Turkey and the Middle East. Like I said, your limited exposure in Turkey didn't count because you A- were in a very secular reformed country, with an anti Islamization culture in it's past, and B- Weren't really in touch with any minorities, so how the fuck would you know what the Muslim majority was doing to them?

Good news is I'm not going to charge you for this free education, dufus. Here's what is happening to all the reforms that Attaturk had brought about. Telling the truth isn't crazy. Ignoring it is:

4 Jarring Signs of Turkey s Growing Islamization - The Atlantic

Turn right at the omelet," said the gas-station attendant. We were standing on the outskirts of Edirne, a small city about two hours north of Istanbul. My Turkish is poor so I turned for help to my Turkish friend.

"Omelet?" I asked.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques constructed by the government since 2002.
"He meant outlet," he said, as in outlet mall. On today's Turkish highways, outlet malls are more common than caravanserais or roadside inns once were on the Silk Road. The malls are just one sign of the economic boom that is bringing western consumerism to the masses. Arriving in Istanbul from one of the phlegmatic economies of Europe or even from the United States is a jolt. Drive around western or central Turkey and you'll see new roads, high rises, and construction sites everywhere. Much of it comes from Middle Eastern oil money, much of it reinvested into industries such as automobile manufacture, textile, and food production. A recent trip revealed a Turkey that is wealthier than ever in its modern history.

And yet, the gas jockey had it right. For the average person, Westernization is about as deep as the difference between "omelet" and "outlet." The Turkish government wouldn't have it any other way. The Justice and Development Party (AKP) has been in power for more than ten years, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in charge for most of them. Their goal is change. They want to make Turkey wealthy and Islamic. They have turned from the vaguely socialist policies of their predecessors to crony capitalism, and from the staunchly secular and pro-western policies established by Ataturk, the Republic's founder, to religious and Muslim-world-centered policies. They have abandoned Ataturk's non-interventionist stance for an active role in Egypt, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and now Syria.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques built by the government since 2002. The state is planning an enormous mosque, more than 150,000 square feet in size, to loom over Istanbul on a hill on the Asian side of the Bosphorus. Secularists are outraged, and an opposition leader, Republican People's Party (CHP) MP Mehmet Ali Ediboglu, calls this just another step in a process that, he claims, will end in an Islamic republic.

Whither Turkey? Erdogan's visit to Washington last week is a reminder of how important that question is. President Barack Obama has called Turkey a critical ally and has spoken of his friendship for the Turkish leader. Yet Erdogan is trying to change the Turkish constitution from a parliamentary to a presidential system -- with the hope, of course, that he will be the president. His opponent's charge that Erdogan's model is Russia's Putin, a virtual dictator by legal means.

A visitor can only wonder where Erdogan's country is headed. Consider four scenes from the road:

1) Lecturing in a public university on Turkey's western coast -- the country's secular region -- I saw a small but significant number of women wearing headscarves. The government not long ago overturned a ban on headscarves in public places. From the American point of view, that seems like a good thing and a move in favor of religious freedom. Turkish secularists, however, consider it the thin end of a wedge.

2) In Amasya in north-central Turkey sits the graceful Kapiaga Madrasa. It was built in the sixteenth century by Sultan Bayezit II, an enlightened ruler who welcomed Jews and Muslims expelled from Spain in 1492. The octagonal structure is constructed around a central, arcaded courtyard. A visitor encounters what sounds at first like the buzzing of bees. In fact, it is boys studying religious texts.

The day I saw the madrasa I was wearing a baseball cap purchased earlier at a Turkish naval museum. It was decorated with a Turkish flag and a historic warship. The students looked at me with a certain aloof surprise. I didn't realize that I was making a political statement, but my Turkish friend explained that the symbol was nationalist and secular in their eyes.

3) On the way to Edirne, we drove past the exit to Silivri. A summer resort, Silivri is also home to a huge prison. It houses hundreds of top military officers along with journalists, lawyers, and members of Parliament accused of plotting against the government. It is Turkey's answer to the Bastille, the notorious jail for political prisoners in pre-revolutionary France. With 47 reporters incarcerated, Turkey has been called the world's leading jailer of journalists.

4) Arriving in Istanbul at night after a trip to the Anatolian heartland, my friend drove down Baghdad Avenue -- the Rodeo Drive of Istanbul. Rock music and short skirts were on order, not headscarves and religious chanting. Political prisoners seemed far away. But the boys in the madrasa will soon be adults and the women in headscarves will be college graduates. What kind of a country will they build, I wondered, when they come to Istanbul and look up at its grand new mosque? And what will Turkey's future mean for Americans and our own long and troubled quest to build better relations with Muslim countries?

Erdogan resurrects debates of Islamization
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/09/193621.html

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s comment that his government wants to “raise a religious youth” has touched a nerve in society, fuelling debates over an alleged “hidden agenda” to Islamize secular Turkey.

“We want to raise a religious youth,” said Erdogan, himself a graduate of a clerical school and the leader of the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), during a parliamentary address last week.

“Do you expect the conservative democrat AK Party to raise an atheist generation? That might be your business, your mission, but not ours. We will raise a conservative and democratic generation embracing the nation’s values and principles,” he added.


Erdogan’s remarks drew strong criticism from the staunchly secular Republican People’s Party (CHP) founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, with its leader calling him a “religion-monger.”

“It is a sin to garner votes over religion. You are not religious but a religion-monger,” said Kemal Kilicdaroglu, accusing Erdogan of polarizing the country by touching its faultlines.

“I’m asking the prime minister: what can I do if I don’t want my child to be raised as religious and conservative?” wrote prominent liberal commentator Hasan Cemal in Milliyet daily.

“If you are going to train a religious and conservative generation in schools, what will happen to my child?” he asked.

Columnist Mehmet Ali Birand also criticized Erdogan this week in an article titled, “The race for piety will be our end.”

“What does it mean, really, that the state raises religious youth? Is this the first step towards a religious state?” he wrote in Hurriyet Daily News.

Erdogan must explain what he meant, otherwise a dangerous storm may erupt and go as far as fights about being religious versus being godless, he argued.

Neither religious nor political uniformity can be imposed on Turkey given regional, ethnic and sectarian diversity in the country, wrote Semih Idiz in Milliyet daily on Tuesday.

He said millions of people “have subscribed to secular lifestyles” even before the republic.

Erdogan’s AKP has been in power since 2002 and won a third term with nearly 50 percent of the vote in the 2011 elections, securing 325 seats in the 550-member parliament.

But since then the influence of the military, considered as guardian of secularism, has waned.

Dozens of retired and active army officers, academics, journalists and lawyers have been put behind bars in probes into alleged plots against Erdogan’s government.

Critics accuse the government of launching the probes as a tool to silence opponents and impose authoritarianism.

Secular quarters argue Erdogan’s conservative government is also step by step imposing religion in every aspect of life, saying many restaurants already refuse to serve alcohol during Ramadan.

They also criticize recent changes to legislation under which religious school graduates will now be able to access any university branch they like, while in the past they had only access to theology schools.

Birand expressed fears that the changes would not be confined to this and would lead to censorship in television broadcasts.

The Turkish television watchdog RTUK “will restrict all kissing scenes; they will confuse pornography with explicit broadcast and all television screens will be made pious,” he added.

“Then will come religious foundations. After them, it will be municipalities. All kinds of Koran teaching courses, legal or illegal, will mushroom.”

Observers say Erdogan’s message contradicts what he had said during a recent tour of Arab Spring countries, in September.

“As Recep Tayyip Erdogan I am a Muslim but not secular. But I am a prime minister of a secular country. People have the freedom to choose whether or not to be religious in a secular regime,” he said in an interview with an Egyptian TV, published by Turkish daily Vatan.

“The constitution in Turkey defines secularism as the state’s equal distance to every religion,” he said in remarks that provoked criticism from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

None of the Turkish people I know would have any idea what you're talking about.

It's easy to be as far from reality as you are, having never lived with Muslims

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Do Turks eat that salted Bulgarian Peynir (cheese) as well? Iranians call it Panir Bulgari. I still love eating it with bread and watermelon. Breakfast of champions. I have never been to Turkey however I am sure Turks, like all other people are busy living their everyday lives.

But yes, most of the things said on these anonymous boards can't be said in public, anywhere. However, that does not mean there isn't any truth to them.

That salty feta like cheese comes in a square blue aluminum can, not sure if it's from Bulgaria. But I loved the summer season Turkish breakfasts. Tomatos, those skinny mild green peppers, cucumbers, salty home made cured black olives, fresh bread from the corner bakery, tea, and preserves.

 

[toxicmedia]

And you just proved to me that you're about as ignorant as a redneck when it comes to the history of Turkey and the Middle East. Like I said, your limited exposure in Turkey didn't count because you A- were in a very secular reformed country, with an anti Islamization culture in it's past, and B- Weren't really in touch with any minorities, so how the fuck would you know what the Muslim majority was doing to them?

Good news is I'm not going to charge you for this free education, dufus. Here's what is happening to all the reforms that Attaturk had brought about. Telling the truth isn't crazy. Ignoring it is:

4 Jarring Signs of Turkey s Growing Islamization - The Atlantic

Turn right at the omelet," said the gas-station attendant. We were standing on the outskirts of Edirne, a small city about two hours north of Istanbul. My Turkish is poor so I turned for help to my Turkish friend.

"Omelet?" I asked.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques constructed by the government since 2002.
"He meant outlet," he said, as in outlet mall. On today's Turkish highways, outlet malls are more common than caravanserais or roadside inns once were on the Silk Road. The malls are just one sign of the economic boom that is bringing western consumerism to the masses. Arriving in Istanbul from one of the phlegmatic economies of Europe or even from the United States is a jolt. Drive around western or central Turkey and you'll see new roads, high rises, and construction sites everywhere. Much of it comes from Middle Eastern oil money, much of it reinvested into industries such as automobile manufacture, textile, and food production. A recent trip revealed a Turkey that is wealthier than ever in its modern history.

And yet, the gas jockey had it right. For the average person, Westernization is about as deep as the difference between "omelet" and "outlet." The Turkish government wouldn't have it any other way. The Justice and Development Party (AKP) has been in power for more than ten years, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in charge for most of them. Their goal is change. They want to make Turkey wealthy and Islamic. They have turned from the vaguely socialist policies of their predecessors to crony capitalism, and from the staunchly secular and pro-western policies established by Ataturk, the Republic's founder, to religious and Muslim-world-centered policies. They have abandoned Ataturk's non-interventionist stance for an active role in Egypt, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and now Syria.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques built by the government since 2002. The state is planning an enormous mosque, more than 150,000 square feet in size, to loom over Istanbul on a hill on the Asian side of the Bosphorus. Secularists are outraged, and an opposition leader, Republican People's Party (CHP) MP Mehmet Ali Ediboglu, calls this just another step in a process that, he claims, will end in an Islamic republic.

Whither Turkey? Erdogan's visit to Washington last week is a reminder of how important that question is. President Barack Obama has called Turkey a critical ally and has spoken of his friendship for the Turkish leader. Yet Erdogan is trying to change the Turkish constitution from a parliamentary to a presidential system -- with the hope, of course, that he will be the president. His opponent's charge that Erdogan's model is Russia's Putin, a virtual dictator by legal means.

A visitor can only wonder where Erdogan's country is headed. Consider four scenes from the road:

1) Lecturing in a public university on Turkey's western coast -- the country's secular region -- I saw a small but significant number of women wearing headscarves. The government not long ago overturned a ban on headscarves in public places. From the American point of view, that seems like a good thing and a move in favor of religious freedom. Turkish secularists, however, consider it the thin end of a wedge.

2) In Amasya in north-central Turkey sits the graceful Kapiaga Madrasa. It was built in the sixteenth century by Sultan Bayezit II, an enlightened ruler who welcomed Jews and Muslims expelled from Spain in 1492. The octagonal structure is constructed around a central, arcaded courtyard. A visitor encounters what sounds at first like the buzzing of bees. In fact, it is boys studying religious texts.

The day I saw the madrasa I was wearing a baseball cap purchased earlier at a Turkish naval museum. It was decorated with a Turkish flag and a historic warship. The students looked at me with a certain aloof surprise. I didn't realize that I was making a political statement, but my Turkish friend explained that the symbol was nationalist and secular in their eyes.

3) On the way to Edirne, we drove past the exit to Silivri. A summer resort, Silivri is also home to a huge prison. It houses hundreds of top military officers along with journalists, lawyers, and members of Parliament accused of plotting against the government. It is Turkey's answer to the Bastille, the notorious jail for political prisoners in pre-revolutionary France. With 47 reporters incarcerated, Turkey has been called the world's leading jailer of journalists.

4) Arriving in Istanbul at night after a trip to the Anatolian heartland, my friend drove down Baghdad Avenue -- the Rodeo Drive of Istanbul. Rock music and short skirts were on order, not headscarves and religious chanting. Political prisoners seemed far away. But the boys in the madrasa will soon be adults and the women in headscarves will be college graduates. What kind of a country will they build, I wondered, when they come to Istanbul and look up at its grand new mosque? And what will Turkey's future mean for Americans and our own long and troubled quest to build better relations with Muslim countries?

Erdogan resurrects debates of Islamization
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/09/193621.html

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s comment that his government wants to “raise a religious youth” has touched a nerve in society, fuelling debates over an alleged “hidden agenda” to Islamize secular Turkey.

“We want to raise a religious youth,” said Erdogan, himself a graduate of a clerical school and the leader of the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), during a parliamentary address last week.

“Do you expect the conservative democrat AK Party to raise an atheist generation? That might be your business, your mission, but not ours. We will raise a conservative and democratic generation embracing the nation’s values and principles,” he added.


Erdogan’s remarks drew strong criticism from the staunchly secular Republican People’s Party (CHP) founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, with its leader calling him a “religion-monger.”

“It is a sin to garner votes over religion. You are not religious but a religion-monger,” said Kemal Kilicdaroglu, accusing Erdogan of polarizing the country by touching its faultlines.

“I’m asking the prime minister: what can I do if I don’t want my child to be raised as religious and conservative?” wrote prominent liberal commentator Hasan Cemal in Milliyet daily.

“If you are going to train a religious and conservative generation in schools, what will happen to my child?” he asked.

Columnist Mehmet Ali Birand also criticized Erdogan this week in an article titled, “The race for piety will be our end.”

“What does it mean, really, that the state raises religious youth? Is this the first step towards a religious state?” he wrote in Hurriyet Daily News.

Erdogan must explain what he meant, otherwise a dangerous storm may erupt and go as far as fights about being religious versus being godless, he argued.

Neither religious nor political uniformity can be imposed on Turkey given regional, ethnic and sectarian diversity in the country, wrote Semih Idiz in Milliyet daily on Tuesday.

He said millions of people “have subscribed to secular lifestyles” even before the republic.

Erdogan’s AKP has been in power since 2002 and won a third term with nearly 50 percent of the vote in the 2011 elections, securing 325 seats in the 550-member parliament.

But since then the influence of the military, considered as guardian of secularism, has waned.

Dozens of retired and active army officers, academics, journalists and lawyers have been put behind bars in probes into alleged plots against Erdogan’s government.

Critics accuse the government of launching the probes as a tool to silence opponents and impose authoritarianism.

Secular quarters argue Erdogan’s conservative government is also step by step imposing religion in every aspect of life, saying many restaurants already refuse to serve alcohol during Ramadan.

They also criticize recent changes to legislation under which religious school graduates will now be able to access any university branch they like, while in the past they had only access to theology schools.

Birand expressed fears that the changes would not be confined to this and would lead to censorship in television broadcasts.

The Turkish television watchdog RTUK “will restrict all kissing scenes; they will confuse pornography with explicit broadcast and all television screens will be made pious,” he added.

“Then will come religious foundations. After them, it will be municipalities. All kinds of Koran teaching courses, legal or illegal, will mushroom.”

Observers say Erdogan’s message contradicts what he had said during a recent tour of Arab Spring countries, in September.

“As Recep Tayyip Erdogan I am a Muslim but not secular. But I am a prime minister of a secular country. People have the freedom to choose whether or not to be religious in a secular regime,” he said in an interview with an Egyptian TV, published by Turkish daily Vatan.

“The constitution in Turkey defines secularism as the state’s equal distance to every religion,” he said in remarks that provoked criticism from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

None of the Turkish people I know would have any idea what you're talking about.

It's easy to be as far from reality as you are, having never lived with Muslims

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Unless they were Shiites. I know that Shiites put pictures of Ali up all the time, even in their mosques. But Turks are usually Sunnis and Sunnis can't have displays of Mohammad.

Ever heard of Alevis?

My ex wife's Father's side of the family were Kurdish, and her Mother's was Sunni.

 

[Roudy]

And you just proved to me that you're about as ignorant as a redneck when it comes to the history of Turkey and the Middle East. Like I said, your limited exposure in Turkey didn't count because you A- were in a very secular reformed country, with an anti Islamization culture in it's past, and B- Weren't really in touch with any minorities, so how the fuck would you know what the Muslim majority was doing to them?

Good news is I'm not going to charge you for this free education, dufus. Here's what is happening to all the reforms that Attaturk had brought about. Telling the truth isn't crazy. Ignoring it is:

4 Jarring Signs of Turkey s Growing Islamization - The Atlantic

Turn right at the omelet," said the gas-station attendant. We were standing on the outskirts of Edirne, a small city about two hours north of Istanbul. My Turkish is poor so I turned for help to my Turkish friend.

"Omelet?" I asked.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques constructed by the government since 2002.
"He meant outlet," he said, as in outlet mall. On today's Turkish highways, outlet malls are more common than caravanserais or roadside inns once were on the Silk Road. The malls are just one sign of the economic boom that is bringing western consumerism to the masses. Arriving in Istanbul from one of the phlegmatic economies of Europe or even from the United States is a jolt. Drive around western or central Turkey and you'll see new roads, high rises, and construction sites everywhere. Much of it comes from Middle Eastern oil money, much of it reinvested into industries such as automobile manufacture, textile, and food production. A recent trip revealed a Turkey that is wealthier than ever in its modern history.

And yet, the gas jockey had it right. For the average person, Westernization is about as deep as the difference between "omelet" and "outlet." The Turkish government wouldn't have it any other way. The Justice and Development Party (AKP) has been in power for more than ten years, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in charge for most of them. Their goal is change. They want to make Turkey wealthy and Islamic. They have turned from the vaguely socialist policies of their predecessors to crony capitalism, and from the staunchly secular and pro-western policies established by Ataturk, the Republic's founder, to religious and Muslim-world-centered policies. They have abandoned Ataturk's non-interventionist stance for an active role in Egypt, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and now Syria.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques built by the government since 2002. The state is planning an enormous mosque, more than 150,000 square feet in size, to loom over Istanbul on a hill on the Asian side of the Bosphorus. Secularists are outraged, and an opposition leader, Republican People's Party (CHP) MP Mehmet Ali Ediboglu, calls this just another step in a process that, he claims, will end in an Islamic republic.

Whither Turkey? Erdogan's visit to Washington last week is a reminder of how important that question is. President Barack Obama has called Turkey a critical ally and has spoken of his friendship for the Turkish leader. Yet Erdogan is trying to change the Turkish constitution from a parliamentary to a presidential system -- with the hope, of course, that he will be the president. His opponent's charge that Erdogan's model is Russia's Putin, a virtual dictator by legal means.

A visitor can only wonder where Erdogan's country is headed. Consider four scenes from the road:

1) Lecturing in a public university on Turkey's western coast -- the country's secular region -- I saw a small but significant number of women wearing headscarves. The government not long ago overturned a ban on headscarves in public places. From the American point of view, that seems like a good thing and a move in favor of religious freedom. Turkish secularists, however, consider it the thin end of a wedge.

2) In Amasya in north-central Turkey sits the graceful Kapiaga Madrasa. It was built in the sixteenth century by Sultan Bayezit II, an enlightened ruler who welcomed Jews and Muslims expelled from Spain in 1492. The octagonal structure is constructed around a central, arcaded courtyard. A visitor encounters what sounds at first like the buzzing of bees. In fact, it is boys studying religious texts.

The day I saw the madrasa I was wearing a baseball cap purchased earlier at a Turkish naval museum. It was decorated with a Turkish flag and a historic warship. The students looked at me with a certain aloof surprise. I didn't realize that I was making a political statement, but my Turkish friend explained that the symbol was nationalist and secular in their eyes.

3) On the way to Edirne, we drove past the exit to Silivri. A summer resort, Silivri is also home to a huge prison. It houses hundreds of top military officers along with journalists, lawyers, and members of Parliament accused of plotting against the government. It is Turkey's answer to the Bastille, the notorious jail for political prisoners in pre-revolutionary France. With 47 reporters incarcerated, Turkey has been called the world's leading jailer of journalists.

4) Arriving in Istanbul at night after a trip to the Anatolian heartland, my friend drove down Baghdad Avenue -- the Rodeo Drive of Istanbul. Rock music and short skirts were on order, not headscarves and religious chanting. Political prisoners seemed far away. But the boys in the madrasa will soon be adults and the women in headscarves will be college graduates. What kind of a country will they build, I wondered, when they come to Istanbul and look up at its grand new mosque? And what will Turkey's future mean for Americans and our own long and troubled quest to build better relations with Muslim countries?

Erdogan resurrects debates of Islamization
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/09/193621.html

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s comment that his government wants to “raise a religious youth” has touched a nerve in society, fuelling debates over an alleged “hidden agenda” to Islamize secular Turkey.

“We want to raise a religious youth,” said Erdogan, himself a graduate of a clerical school and the leader of the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), during a parliamentary address last week.

“Do you expect the conservative democrat AK Party to raise an atheist generation? That might be your business, your mission, but not ours. We will raise a conservative and democratic generation embracing the nation’s values and principles,” he added.


Erdogan’s remarks drew strong criticism from the staunchly secular Republican People’s Party (CHP) founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, with its leader calling him a “religion-monger.”

“It is a sin to garner votes over religion. You are not religious but a religion-monger,” said Kemal Kilicdaroglu, accusing Erdogan of polarizing the country by touching its faultlines.

“I’m asking the prime minister: what can I do if I don’t want my child to be raised as religious and conservative?” wrote prominent liberal commentator Hasan Cemal in Milliyet daily.

“If you are going to train a religious and conservative generation in schools, what will happen to my child?” he asked.

Columnist Mehmet Ali Birand also criticized Erdogan this week in an article titled, “The race for piety will be our end.”

“What does it mean, really, that the state raises religious youth? Is this the first step towards a religious state?” he wrote in Hurriyet Daily News.

Erdogan must explain what he meant, otherwise a dangerous storm may erupt and go as far as fights about being religious versus being godless, he argued.

Neither religious nor political uniformity can be imposed on Turkey given regional, ethnic and sectarian diversity in the country, wrote Semih Idiz in Milliyet daily on Tuesday.

He said millions of people “have subscribed to secular lifestyles” even before the republic.

Erdogan’s AKP has been in power since 2002 and won a third term with nearly 50 percent of the vote in the 2011 elections, securing 325 seats in the 550-member parliament.

But since then the influence of the military, considered as guardian of secularism, has waned.

Dozens of retired and active army officers, academics, journalists and lawyers have been put behind bars in probes into alleged plots against Erdogan’s government.

Critics accuse the government of launching the probes as a tool to silence opponents and impose authoritarianism.

Secular quarters argue Erdogan’s conservative government is also step by step imposing religion in every aspect of life, saying many restaurants already refuse to serve alcohol during Ramadan.

They also criticize recent changes to legislation under which religious school graduates will now be able to access any university branch they like, while in the past they had only access to theology schools.

Birand expressed fears that the changes would not be confined to this and would lead to censorship in television broadcasts.

The Turkish television watchdog RTUK “will restrict all kissing scenes; they will confuse pornography with explicit broadcast and all television screens will be made pious,” he added.

“Then will come religious foundations. After them, it will be municipalities. All kinds of Koran teaching courses, legal or illegal, will mushroom.”

Observers say Erdogan’s message contradicts what he had said during a recent tour of Arab Spring countries, in September.

“As Recep Tayyip Erdogan I am a Muslim but not secular. But I am a prime minister of a secular country. People have the freedom to choose whether or not to be religious in a secular regime,” he said in an interview with an Egyptian TV, published by Turkish daily Vatan.

“The constitution in Turkey defines secularism as the state’s equal distance to every religion,” he said in remarks that provoked criticism from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

None of the Turkish people I know would have any idea what you're talking about.

It's easy to be as far from reality as you are, having never lived with Muslims

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Pretty much these dudes.

Yup. Like I said. Look outside the picture you will see "Imam Ali". That's the main Shiite prophet. In many ways Shiites are like the Catholics of Islam. They have Saints which they pray to or carry their pictures in their homes or at work. And they have a lot more superstitious type traditions that Sunnis don't have. You must have gone out with a Shiite Turk. There are many of them in Iran as well. Many of them are from Azerbaijan, they are called Azari Turks. They are very different culturally than Turks from Turkey, who are more like Arabs. Their food, music, dancing, and even their language is a little different. I had a business partner who was an Iranian Azari Turk.

 

[Roudy]

None of the Turkish people I know would have any idea what you're talking about.

It's easy to be as far from reality as you are, having never lived with Muslims

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Unless they were Shiites. I know that Shiites put pictures of Ali up all the time, even in their mosques. But Turks are usually Sunnis and Sunnis can't have displays of Mohammad.

Ever heard of Alevis?

My ex wife's Father's side of the family were Kurdish, and her Mother's was Sunni.

I had heard the term but I just read a little just now. Apparently Alevi's and Alawites (as in Syrian rulers) are the same. They are Sunnis who believe in a mystical version of Islam, who hold Ali, the Shiite prophet in high reverence. So I was wrong they were Sunnis, although the pic is indeed Ali. The other dude I'm not sure who he is. But a Turk would definitely know.

Someone once said, if you want to know why multiculturalism and diversity don't work, just take a look at the Middle East. All these countries have been invaded and conquered by so many throughout history, leaving behind all these ethnicities that have been in limbo for hundreds of years, who at times are at war with other people's and tribes. The Kurds are one of these people, with a proud history.

It's truly a mess there, the results of which we are seeing being played in the world stage now.

 

[toxicmedia]

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Unless they were Shiites. I know that Shiites put pictures of Ali up all the time, even in their mosques. But Turks are usually Sunnis and Sunnis can't have displays of Mohammad.

Ever heard of Alevis?

My ex wife's Father's side of the family were Kurdish, and her Mother's was Sunni.

I had heard the term but I just read a little just now. Apparently Alevi's and Alawites (as in Syrian rulers) are the same. They are Sunnis who believe in a mystical version of Islam, who hold Ali, the Shiite prophet in high reverence. So I was wrong they were Sunnis, although the pic is indeed Ali. The other dude I'm not sure who he is. But a Turk would definitely know.

Someone once said, if you want to know why multiculturalism and diversity don't work, just take a look at the Middle East. All these countries have been invaded and conquered by so many throughout history, leaving behind all these ethnicities that have been in limbo for hundreds of years, who at times are at war with other people's and tribes. The Kurds are one of these people, with a proud history.

It's truly a mess there, the results of which we are seeing being played in the world stage now.

I'm not sure...I remember somebody saying something that puts resentful distance between Alewites and Alevis. But they also bad mouthed Shiites, Afghanis, Armenians, and Saudis. But the thing they were oppressed a bit for was because they were tradesmen. There were APC's rolling through the streets at night looking for trouble makers

They spent far less time talking religion than you and I do. One time, my Dede (grandpa) gave me an empty beer bottle to throw at the new Mosque across the street, he was tired of thos guys doing their thing 4 times a day.

 

[Phoenall]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

The depth of ignorance shown by those who try to claim some sort of expertise can get downright laughable at times, can't it?

First, he displays that he is completely ignorant of the notion of apostasy. Now, it is aniconism.

I await his next display of utter lack of knowledge most avidly.

Yes. It can. Please keep posting. The entertainment value, at least, is worth it.

How about the educational value as well, you learn something new about islam every day

 

[Coyote]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

The depth of ignorance shown by those who try to claim some sort of expertise can get downright laughable at times, can't it?

First, he displays that he is completely ignorant of the notion of apostasy. Now, it is aniconism.

I await his next display of utter lack of knowledge most avidly.

Yes. It can. Please keep posting. The entertainment value, at least, is worth it.

How about the educational value as well, you learn something new about islam every day

Yes, there are a few posters from whom I learn - I rate them with "informative"

 

[Phoenall]

But such a thing as free speech does not exist in Muslim countries. Never did, and never will.

And again, you are talking about Turkey, a secular country which at some point in recent history banned Islamism to the point that even it's official language was changed to Latin / Greek. Now of course, it's taken a turn for the much worse with this new leadership. What I'm saying is the act of a Christian man marrying a Muslim woman without first converting to Islam, is punishable by death in many Muslim countries. I'm wondering how even in Turkey, you guys were issued a marriage certificate. Perhaps you married in US.

There is no such thing as a cool head when it comes to Muslims (generally speaking). There is a certain capacity for rational thought and reason, which for some reason or another Islam seems to wipe out of the human brain. Having been around Muslims I know this to be a fact. Why do you think there seems to be an endless amount of people in the Muslim world willing to put on a suicide vest and go blow themselves up? Picture the act and then ask yourself, is it poverty, education, or is it the degree of the grievance? You have people under worse conditions that never did the kinds of horrific things Muslims do. The answer can be one thing and one thing alone: it's the ideology. Let's be honest and call a spade a spade.

And team Palestine ignore the facts because they don't agree with their reality of the situation.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

So what facts can you bring to the table to show that overall muslims are maligned and misunderstood pillars of the community. And I will bring the exact opposite to the table with evidence from every nation they have set foot in.

I've brought multiple facts supported by data and sources "to the table" in a number of threads. The fact that you choose to ignore them does not mean I have to keep reposting them on demand.

I can bring - to the table - atrocities committed by Muslims, Jews,, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians and Athiests. I can also bring to the table good things brought about by Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Athiests. There are plenty of examples of each.

Never seen any facts from a non partisan source from you or any other team Palestine member, what I have seen is ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and LIES. Your good things will be in the minority compared to the bad things done by muslims to even their own. They will issue fatwahs that make other muslims apostates so they can mass murder them with impunity and a clear conscience. that is how they work on a system of self absolution so that their sins are forgiven, a good example would be a child raped and murdered by a muslim, all he need do is utter the prayer to allah and he is innocent of any crime again. Then he pays the family a set amount for the life of the child. This is why when they are engaging in terrorist acts they cry out allahu Akbar so they will go to paradise if they are killed.

 

[Phoenall]

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Unless they were Shiites. I know that Shiites put pictures of Ali up all the time, even in their mosques. But Turks are usually Sunnis and Sunnis can't have displays of Mohammad.

Ever heard of Alevis?

My ex wife's Father's side of the family were Kurdish, and her Mother's was Sunni.

I had heard the term but I just read a little just now. Apparently Alevi's and Alawites (as in Syrian rulers) are the same. They are Sunnis who believe in a mystical version of Islam, who hold Ali, the Shiite prophet in high reverence. So I was wrong they were Sunnis, although the pic is indeed Ali. The other dude I'm not sure who he is. But a Turk would definitely know.

Someone once said, if you want to know why multiculturalism and diversity don't work, just take a look at the Middle East. All these countries have been invaded and conquered by so many throughout history, leaving behind all these ethnicities that have been in limbo for hundreds of years, who at times are at war with other people's and tribes. The Kurds are one of these people, with a proud history.

It's truly a mess there, the results of which we are seeing being played in the world stage now.

I'm not sure...I remember somebody saying something that puts resentful distance between Alewites and Alevis. But they also bad mouthed Shiites, Afghanis, Armenians, and Saudis. But the thing they were oppressed a bit for was because they were tradesmen. There were APC's rolling through the streets at night looking for trouble makers

They spent far less time talking religion than you and I do. One time, my Dede (grandpa) gave me an empty beer bottle to throw at the new Mosque across the street, he was tired of thos guys doing their thing 4 times a day.

You must have missed one as the call to prayer goes out 5 times a day, now they use cheap walkie talkies to call the faithfull to prayer after being hit with many noise abatement orders.
The true arabs from Saudi look down on all the other muslims as scum and second class pretend muslims, so is it any wonder islam is so paranoid and sees hate round every corner

 

[toxicmedia]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Unless they were Shiites. I know that Shiites put pictures of Ali up all the time, even in their mosques. But Turks are usually Sunnis and Sunnis can't have displays of Mohammad.

Ever heard of Alevis?

My ex wife's Father's side of the family were Kurdish, and her Mother's was Sunni.

I had heard the term but I just read a little just now. Apparently Alevi's and Alawites (as in Syrian rulers) are the same. They are Sunnis who believe in a mystical version of Islam, who hold Ali, the Shiite prophet in high reverence. So I was wrong they were Sunnis, although the pic is indeed Ali. The other dude I'm not sure who he is. But a Turk would definitely know.

Someone once said, if you want to know why multiculturalism and diversity don't work, just take a look at the Middle East. All these countries have been invaded and conquered by so many throughout history, leaving behind all these ethnicities that have been in limbo for hundreds of years, who at times are at war with other people's and tribes. The Kurds are one of these people, with a proud history.

It's truly a mess there, the results of which we are seeing being played in the world stage now.

I'm not sure...I remember somebody saying something that puts resentful distance between Alewites and Alevis. But they also bad mouthed Shiites, Afghanis, Armenians, and Saudis. But the thing they were oppressed a bit for was because they were tradesmen. There were APC's rolling through the streets at night looking for trouble makers

They spent far less time talking religion than you and I do. One time, my Dede (grandpa) gave me an empty beer bottle to throw at the new Mosque across the street, he was tired of thos guys doing their thing 4 times a day.

You must have missed one as the call to prayer goes out 5 times a day, now they use cheap walkie talkies to call the faithfull to prayer after being hit with many noise abatement orders.
The true arabs from Saudi look down on all the other muslims as scum and second class pretend muslims, so is it any wonder islam is so paranoid and sees hate round every corner

The Mosque accross the street had a PA system. But the guy had a pretty good voice, and did his own little riffs that would make us laugh.

I don't know about anybody who thought others were scum. Maybe snooty Saudis might do that. They way talked about people they didn't like was no different than I hear coming from people who hate liberals, or consrvatives, on this site.

Ya know...everywhere I went, terrorism was illegal, and most of the people I met thought terrorists were idiots. I was living at Lake Van in eastern Turkey during 911. Most of the people in the town came over at some point for Tea, and offered condolences, and expressed shock

 

[toxicmedia]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

Unless they were Shiites. I know that Shiites put pictures of Ali up all the time, even in their mosques. But Turks are usually Sunnis and Sunnis can't have displays of Mohammad.

Ever heard of Alevis?

My ex wife's Father's side of the family were Kurdish, and her Mother's was Sunni.

I had heard the term but I just read a little just now. Apparently Alevi's and Alawites (as in Syrian rulers) are the same. They are Sunnis who believe in a mystical version of Islam, who hold Ali, the Shiite prophet in high reverence. So I was wrong they were Sunnis, although the pic is indeed Ali. The other dude I'm not sure who he is. But a Turk would definitely know.

Someone once said, if you want to know why multiculturalism and diversity don't work, just take a look at the Middle East. All these countries have been invaded and conquered by so many throughout history, leaving behind all these ethnicities that have been in limbo for hundreds of years, who at times are at war with other people's and tribes. The Kurds are one of these people, with a proud history.

It's truly a mess there, the results of which we are seeing being played in the world stage now.

I'm not sure...I remember somebody saying something that puts resentful distance between Alewites and Alevis. But they also bad mouthed Shiites, Afghanis, Armenians, and Saudis. But the thing they were oppressed a bit for was because they were tradesmen. There were APC's rolling through the streets at night looking for trouble makers

They spent far less time talking religion than you and I do. One time, my Dede (grandpa) gave me an empty beer bottle to throw at the new Mosque across the street, he was tired of thos guys doing their thing 4 times a day.

You must have missed one as the call to prayer goes out 5 times a day, now they use cheap walkie talkies to call the faithfull to prayer after being hit with many noise abatement orders.
The true arabs from Saudi look down on all the other muslims as scum and second class pretend muslims, so is it any wonder islam is so paranoid and sees hate round every corner

And by the way....I didn't really count how many times a day ptayer went out. I just remember it waking me up at something like 6:00am or whatever.

The moral of this story...is how little the Muslims I knew, NOT JUST IN TURKEY, talked about Islam.

You guys who are afraid Muslims will take over think of them waaaaay more than the average Muslim thinks about Americans. I wonder how they would react if I told them Americans think they'll actually try to take us over some day, and start killing Christians. They'd think some of us have lost it.

There are bad people over there, and their lives are generally NOT as exciting as ours. But they have Family....smile about as much, cry about as much, and so on....

whatever....your'e just going to say I'm some kind of nazi jew islamic thingy or whatever...I give up

 

[Coyote]

And team Palestine ignore the facts because they don't agree with their reality of the situation.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

So what facts can you bring to the table to show that overall muslims are maligned and misunderstood pillars of the community. And I will bring the exact opposite to the table with evidence from every nation they have set foot in.

I've brought multiple facts supported by data and sources "to the table" in a number of threads. The fact that you choose to ignore them does not mean I have to keep reposting them on demand.

I can bring - to the table - atrocities committed by Muslims, Jews,, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians and Athiests. I can also bring to the table good things brought about by Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, Athiests. There are plenty of examples of each.

Never seen any facts from a non partisan source from you or any other team Palestine member, what I have seen is ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and LIES.

Well natch - any source that disagrees with you is going to be labled "ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and LIES" (and really now - what kind of silly point are you trying to make with the all caps?).

Your good things will be in the minority compared to the bad things done by muslims to even their own. They will issue fatwahs that make other muslims apostates so they can mass murder them with impunity and a clear conscience. that is how they work on a system of self absolution so that their sins are forgiven, a good example would be a child raped and murdered by a muslim, all he need do is utter the prayer to allah and he is innocent of any crime again. Then he pays the family a set amount for the life of the child. This is why when they are engaging in terrorist acts they cry out allahu Akbar so they will go to paradise if they are killed.

That's a matter of opinion.

You do know if a child is raped and murdered by a Christian all he needs to do is "get saved" and he is absolved of any crime. He doesn't even have to pay restitution. And the Doctrine of Mental Reservation allows them to cover it up.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

The depth of ignorance shown by those who try to claim some sort of expertise can get downright laughable at times, can't it?

First, he displays that he is completely ignorant of the notion of apostasy. Now, it is aniconism.

I await his next display of utter lack of knowledge most avidly.

Yes. It can. Please keep posting. The entertainment value, at least, is worth it.

How about the educational value as well, you learn something new about islam every day

Yes, there are a few posters from whom I learn - I rate them with "informative"

. "Informative" - I/e montelaciti, beezelbub, challenger, Penelope, Sunni man, cult smasher..........

 

[Coyote]

Which prophets did they have pictures of, seeing these are disallowed in islam ?

The depth of ignorance shown by those who try to claim some sort of expertise can get downright laughable at times, can't it?

First, he displays that he is completely ignorant of the notion of apostasy. Now, it is aniconism.

I await his next display of utter lack of knowledge most avidly.

Yes. It can. Please keep posting. The entertainment value, at least, is worth it.

How about the educational value as well, you learn something new about islam every day

Yes, there are a few posters from whom I learn - I rate them with "informative"

. "Informative" - I/e montelaciti, beezelbub, challenger, Penelope, Sunni man, cult smasher..........

You have some strange ideas of "informative". Some yes, some not so much. But if you find the likes of cult smasher, Monte, and Penelope informative...well....it's a free country dude.

 

[Sally]

This is about what YOU do, not what other people do. You lied. You are a bald-faced liar and your very purpose in propagandizing across various boards is to lie.

You do not treat all religions the same, to which your many tens of thousands of posts attests. You treat the defense of Islam as your very mission in life.

You sure like to think you know what other people think don't you? You don't. You're just one more racist bigot who's admittted he's never even met a Muslim yet feels qualified to demonize them all.

All religions have their good and their dark sides. When a group gets demonized with hate rhetoric - someone better speak up. We've all seen where that kind of crap can lead.

I'm curious - what's your "solution" to the "Muslim problem" in America? I'm sure you have one, despite never having met a Muslim, so let's hear it.

you make a point that interests me Coyote. You accused
Dog of hating muslims without having met one. Long ago--
when I was young (and beautiful) ----I met LOTS AND LOTS of muslims----together with lots of other people from India, Pakistan Iran even Ceylon (well it WAS Ceylon)------of
those people-----the ones who really really hated jews----
were the muslims who never met a jew.. Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc did not hate jews-------some even had jewish friends---
usually in Bombay------but muslims from the northern parts
of India and from Pakistan (the Ceylon people I knew were
Buddhist and hindu) REALLY HATED JEWS. It worked out
ok------they seemed to assume I am Christian-----that's how
I found out how much they hated jews-------they expected me
to share the opinion-------so I played along----sometimes.
One poor young Opthamologist from Pakistan was HORRIFIED at my claim to be a jew----he insisted
"IT's NOT TRUE"
As to dog------what makes you think he hates "all muslims"-----did he ever say that? Did he say just being born a muslim
is like proof of corruption like so many people say of jews-----
the ones I correctly call islamo nazis

When people have never met "the other" it's easy to believe they aren't like other people and to believe in conspiracy theories and fear mongering. The danger in actually meeting them and talking with them is that you might realize that they are just like other people - just as good, bad, pig-headed, ignorant, educated, smart, stupid....

Look at how the level of anti-semitism and wide spread acceptance of conspiracy theories has risen among the Palestinians. With increased seperation over the years many have never met a Jew.

As far as India - antisemitism among India's Hindus is around 18% - .not a miniscule number.

As far as Dogma's views to Muslims - I have yet to see a single post from him that doesn't totally villafy them as a whole - without distinction. What other conclusion can be drawn?

I have never seen him vilify Muslims as a whole. This is your imagination working overtime. By the way, since you want to call people bigoted, how about you ask this devout Muslim doctor living here in America why he felt he had to narrate this documentary to warn people about how the radical Muslims want to take over America. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many Muslims here in America who wouldn't want to see other Muslims take over because then they would be back in the same boat as they were in before they fled to America for freedom.

The Third Jihad

Show me a post where he has made a distinction between Islam and radical Islam, or said anything postive about Muslims.

Racists and anti-semites aren't the only bigots around you know.

Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time looking at his previous posts. I don't think any of us have given excuses for other groups who commit atrocities on others; however, if you were honest with yourself, you would admit that most of the atrocities being committed at this time in the world are being committed by Muslims. I will always remember what an honest Muslim man in Pakistan said in a letter to the Editor of Dawn.com that if it was only a small percentage of Muslims who were terrorists that could mean in the millions of Muslims. Perhaps you can show us where other groups are operating in so many different locations committing terrorism against innocent people that same way that the Muslims are doing these days.

 

[Sally]

And you just proved to me that you're about as ignorant as a redneck when it comes to the history of Turkey and the Middle East. Like I said, your limited exposure in Turkey didn't count because you A- were in a very secular reformed country, with an anti Islamization culture in it's past, and B- Weren't really in touch with any minorities, so how the fuck would you know what the Muslim majority was doing to them?

Good news is I'm not going to charge you for this free education, dufus. Here's what is happening to all the reforms that Attaturk had brought about. Telling the truth isn't crazy. Ignoring it is:

4 Jarring Signs of Turkey s Growing Islamization - The Atlantic

Turn right at the omelet," said the gas-station attendant. We were standing on the outskirts of Edirne, a small city about two hours north of Istanbul. My Turkish is poor so I turned for help to my Turkish friend.

"Omelet?" I asked.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques constructed by the government since 2002.
"He meant outlet," he said, as in outlet mall. On today's Turkish highways, outlet malls are more common than caravanserais or roadside inns once were on the Silk Road. The malls are just one sign of the economic boom that is bringing western consumerism to the masses. Arriving in Istanbul from one of the phlegmatic economies of Europe or even from the United States is a jolt. Drive around western or central Turkey and you'll see new roads, high rises, and construction sites everywhere. Much of it comes from Middle Eastern oil money, much of it reinvested into industries such as automobile manufacture, textile, and food production. A recent trip revealed a Turkey that is wealthier than ever in its modern history.

And yet, the gas jockey had it right. For the average person, Westernization is about as deep as the difference between "omelet" and "outlet." The Turkish government wouldn't have it any other way. The Justice and Development Party (AKP) has been in power for more than ten years, with Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan in charge for most of them. Their goal is change. They want to make Turkey wealthy and Islamic. They have turned from the vaguely socialist policies of their predecessors to crony capitalism, and from the staunchly secular and pro-western policies established by Ataturk, the Republic's founder, to religious and Muslim-world-centered policies. They have abandoned Ataturk's non-interventionist stance for an active role in Egypt, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and now Syria.

Turkey's building boom includes 17,000 new mosques built by the government since 2002. The state is planning an enormous mosque, more than 150,000 square feet in size, to loom over Istanbul on a hill on the Asian side of the Bosphorus. Secularists are outraged, and an opposition leader, Republican People's Party (CHP) MP Mehmet Ali Ediboglu, calls this just another step in a process that, he claims, will end in an Islamic republic.

Whither Turkey? Erdogan's visit to Washington last week is a reminder of how important that question is. President Barack Obama has called Turkey a critical ally and has spoken of his friendship for the Turkish leader. Yet Erdogan is trying to change the Turkish constitution from a parliamentary to a presidential system -- with the hope, of course, that he will be the president. His opponent's charge that Erdogan's model is Russia's Putin, a virtual dictator by legal means.

A visitor can only wonder where Erdogan's country is headed. Consider four scenes from the road:

1) Lecturing in a public university on Turkey's western coast -- the country's secular region -- I saw a small but significant number of women wearing headscarves. The government not long ago overturned a ban on headscarves in public places. From the American point of view, that seems like a good thing and a move in favor of religious freedom. Turkish secularists, however, consider it the thin end of a wedge.

2) In Amasya in north-central Turkey sits the graceful Kapiaga Madrasa. It was built in the sixteenth century by Sultan Bayezit II, an enlightened ruler who welcomed Jews and Muslims expelled from Spain in 1492. The octagonal structure is constructed around a central, arcaded courtyard. A visitor encounters what sounds at first like the buzzing of bees. In fact, it is boys studying religious texts.

The day I saw the madrasa I was wearing a baseball cap purchased earlier at a Turkish naval museum. It was decorated with a Turkish flag and a historic warship. The students looked at me with a certain aloof surprise. I didn't realize that I was making a political statement, but my Turkish friend explained that the symbol was nationalist and secular in their eyes.

3) On the way to Edirne, we drove past the exit to Silivri. A summer resort, Silivri is also home to a huge prison. It houses hundreds of top military officers along with journalists, lawyers, and members of Parliament accused of plotting against the government. It is Turkey's answer to the Bastille, the notorious jail for political prisoners in pre-revolutionary France. With 47 reporters incarcerated, Turkey has been called the world's leading jailer of journalists.

4) Arriving in Istanbul at night after a trip to the Anatolian heartland, my friend drove down Baghdad Avenue -- the Rodeo Drive of Istanbul. Rock music and short skirts were on order, not headscarves and religious chanting. Political prisoners seemed far away. But the boys in the madrasa will soon be adults and the women in headscarves will be college graduates. What kind of a country will they build, I wondered, when they come to Istanbul and look up at its grand new mosque? And what will Turkey's future mean for Americans and our own long and troubled quest to build better relations with Muslim countries?

Erdogan resurrects debates of Islamization
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/09/193621.html

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s comment that his government wants to “raise a religious youth” has touched a nerve in society, fuelling debates over an alleged “hidden agenda” to Islamize secular Turkey.

“We want to raise a religious youth,” said Erdogan, himself a graduate of a clerical school and the leader of the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), during a parliamentary address last week.

“Do you expect the conservative democrat AK Party to raise an atheist generation? That might be your business, your mission, but not ours. We will raise a conservative and democratic generation embracing the nation’s values and principles,” he added.


Erdogan’s remarks drew strong criticism from the staunchly secular Republican People’s Party (CHP) founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, with its leader calling him a “religion-monger.”

“It is a sin to garner votes over religion. You are not religious but a religion-monger,” said Kemal Kilicdaroglu, accusing Erdogan of polarizing the country by touching its faultlines.

“I’m asking the prime minister: what can I do if I don’t want my child to be raised as religious and conservative?” wrote prominent liberal commentator Hasan Cemal in Milliyet daily.

“If you are going to train a religious and conservative generation in schools, what will happen to my child?” he asked.

Columnist Mehmet Ali Birand also criticized Erdogan this week in an article titled, “The race for piety will be our end.”

“What does it mean, really, that the state raises religious youth? Is this the first step towards a religious state?” he wrote in Hurriyet Daily News.

Erdogan must explain what he meant, otherwise a dangerous storm may erupt and go as far as fights about being religious versus being godless, he argued.

Neither religious nor political uniformity can be imposed on Turkey given regional, ethnic and sectarian diversity in the country, wrote Semih Idiz in Milliyet daily on Tuesday.

He said millions of people “have subscribed to secular lifestyles” even before the republic.

Erdogan’s AKP has been in power since 2002 and won a third term with nearly 50 percent of the vote in the 2011 elections, securing 325 seats in the 550-member parliament.

But since then the influence of the military, considered as guardian of secularism, has waned.

Dozens of retired and active army officers, academics, journalists and lawyers have been put behind bars in probes into alleged plots against Erdogan’s government.

Critics accuse the government of launching the probes as a tool to silence opponents and impose authoritarianism.

Secular quarters argue Erdogan’s conservative government is also step by step imposing religion in every aspect of life, saying many restaurants already refuse to serve alcohol during Ramadan.

They also criticize recent changes to legislation under which religious school graduates will now be able to access any university branch they like, while in the past they had only access to theology schools.

Birand expressed fears that the changes would not be confined to this and would lead to censorship in television broadcasts.

The Turkish television watchdog RTUK “will restrict all kissing scenes; they will confuse pornography with explicit broadcast and all television screens will be made pious,” he added.

“Then will come religious foundations. After them, it will be municipalities. All kinds of Koran teaching courses, legal or illegal, will mushroom.”

Observers say Erdogan’s message contradicts what he had said during a recent tour of Arab Spring countries, in September.

“As Recep Tayyip Erdogan I am a Muslim but not secular. But I am a prime minister of a secular country. People have the freedom to choose whether or not to be religious in a secular regime,” he said in an interview with an Egyptian TV, published by Turkish daily Vatan.

“The constitution in Turkey defines secularism as the state’s equal distance to every religion,” he said in remarks that provoked criticism from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

None of the Turkish people I know would have any idea what you're talking about.

It's easy to be as far from reality as you are, having never lived with Muslims

Kamal Attaturk is a national hero and the father of the Turkish nation. Any semi educated Turk would know Attaturk. Unless you hung out with some low class ignorant ones. "Having never lived with Muslims" after everything that has transpired are you back to bragging about your tourist credentials?

You're putting words in my mouth. It's quite easy for me to remember the many living rooms I sat in over there that have 2 pictures hanging on the wall. One of Ataturk, and the other a prophet.

I understand your need to discredit my experiences over there, while you probably don't. The subconscious is tricky that way. The conversations I had over there always involved lot's of questions about how Americans viewed Turks. I learned early on how genuinely hurt people would get when I told them Americans don't care about things they thought we would. After 911 when somehow, I forget the particulars, the Turkish press got ahold of comments someone made portraying Turks as the lap dog of American policy. THAT created Anti American sentiment. Another thing that would blindly outrage them, being a proud people...are your posts.

The last thing they need is you, a stranger, telling them all about how they are. I feel a little that way when I see you telling me stuff I already know quite well, and stuff that never entered any conversations I had over there.

What you can't possibly realize it what the average day is like for most Turks.

Some of the mind numbing hysterical rants...which you call posts...would not go down well at the Turkish dinner table. The stuff I see you alarmed about is created by politicians in a chaotic parliament, and doesn't affect the price of Domates and Peynir.

I'm simply relating my experiences over there, and I know it must be an obstacle to your abstracts.

Do Turks eat that salted Bulgarian Peynir (cheese) as well? Iranians call it Panir Bulgari. I still love eating it with bread and watermelon. Breakfast of champions. I have never been to Turkey however I am sure Turks, like all other people are busy living their everyday lives.

But yes, most of the things said on these anonymous boards can't be said in public, anywhere. However, that does not mean there isn't any truth to them.

That salty feta like cheese comes in a square blue aluminum can, not sure if it's from Bulgaria. But I loved the summer season Turkish breakfasts. Tomatos, those skinny mild green peppers, cucumbers, salty home made cured black olives, fresh bread from the corner bakery, tea, and preserves.

And here I was looking for a good recipe for lambs' testicles that I see in the meat department of Middle Eastern markets. Since the Armenian Turks that I know say that their mother's dish using these are great, I should ask them how she makes them unless you have a good recipe that you can pass on.

 

[Coyote]

You sure like to think you know what other people think don't you? You don't. You're just one more racist bigot who's admittted he's never even met a Muslim yet feels qualified to demonize them all.

All religions have their good and their dark sides. When a group gets demonized with hate rhetoric - someone better speak up. We've all seen where that kind of crap can lead.

I'm curious - what's your "solution" to the "Muslim problem" in America? I'm sure you have one, despite never having met a Muslim, so let's hear it.

you make a point that interests me Coyote. You accused
Dog of hating muslims without having met one. Long ago--
when I was young (and beautiful) ----I met LOTS AND LOTS of muslims----together with lots of other people from India, Pakistan Iran even Ceylon (well it WAS Ceylon)------of
those people-----the ones who really really hated jews----
were the muslims who never met a jew.. Hindus, Sikhs, etc etc did not hate jews-------some even had jewish friends---
usually in Bombay------but muslims from the northern parts
of India and from Pakistan (the Ceylon people I knew were
Buddhist and hindu) REALLY HATED JEWS. It worked out
ok------they seemed to assume I am Christian-----that's how
I found out how much they hated jews-------they expected me
to share the opinion-------so I played along----sometimes.
One poor young Opthamologist from Pakistan was HORRIFIED at my claim to be a jew----he insisted
"IT's NOT TRUE"
As to dog------what makes you think he hates "all muslims"-----did he ever say that? Did he say just being born a muslim
is like proof of corruption like so many people say of jews-----
the ones I correctly call islamo nazis

When people have never met "the other" it's easy to believe they aren't like other people and to believe in conspiracy theories and fear mongering. The danger in actually meeting them and talking with them is that you might realize that they are just like other people - just as good, bad, pig-headed, ignorant, educated, smart, stupid....

Look at how the level of anti-semitism and wide spread acceptance of conspiracy theories has risen among the Palestinians. With increased seperation over the years many have never met a Jew.

As far as India - antisemitism among India's Hindus is around 18% - .not a miniscule number.

As far as Dogma's views to Muslims - I have yet to see a single post from him that doesn't totally villafy them as a whole - without distinction. What other conclusion can be drawn?

I have never seen him vilify Muslims as a whole. This is your imagination working overtime. By the way, since you want to call people bigoted, how about you ask this devout Muslim doctor living here in America why he felt he had to narrate this documentary to warn people about how the radical Muslims want to take over America. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many Muslims here in America who wouldn't want to see other Muslims take over because then they would be back in the same boat as they were in before they fled to America for freedom.

The Third Jihad

Show me a post where he has made a distinction between Islam and radical Islam, or said anything postive about Muslims.

Racists and anti-semites aren't the only bigots around you know.

Sorry, but I am not going to waste my time looking at his previous posts.

It's your choice Sally. I stand by what I say then.

I don't think any of us have given excuses for other groups who commit atrocities on others;

True, you just ignore them. Or excuse them (if the victims are Muslim like in Myanmar).

however, if you were honest with yourself, you would admit that most of the atrocities being committed at this time in the world are being committed by Muslims.

Are they?

Check out Human Rights Watch: Human Rights Watch Defending Human Rights Worldwide
Also, check out the list of ongoing conflicts around the world and the associated death tolls. Human atrocities are part and parcel of these conflicts. List of ongoing armed conflicts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Many are in Islamic areas. Many are not. They're the ones you guys ignore despite the cost in human life.

I will always remember what an honest Muslim man in Pakistan said in a letter to the Editor of Dawn.com that if it was only a small percentage of Muslims who were terrorists that could mean in the millions of Muslims.

Why do you think he's "honest"? Do you think that's a reason to justify hate rhetoric against the the vast majority who aren't? Did you know that a small percentage of white males are responsible for most of the crime in the US?

Perhaps you can show us where other groups are operating in so many different locations committing terrorism against innocent people that same way that the Muslims are doing these days.

Check out the links.

I've posted threads on the Congo and Mexico and Myanmar amongst others. You ignore them.