Ramadan Bomb-a-thon blast wounds 8 soldiers in Thailand

[Osomir]

I am open to discussing the Koran with you and I am open to the possibility that I am wrong if you could show me how, and I also know that according to the current manual of known species there is no such thing as an atheist apologist for Islam.

Excellent.

however I should also let you know that I know that people are being killed and maimed on a daily basis according to those teachings

And the LRA marches into battle in the formation of a cross and shoots children who take cover in battle because it shows a lack of faith that Jesus will protect them. That doesn't mean that the LRA are a good example of Christian theological beliefs, nor does it mean that Christians elsewhere in the world practice their faith in that manner.

And you should be open to the possibility that I am playing with you catandmouse.

The reason why I come here is to debate. If I simply wanted to preach I'd write a blog.

 

[alpine]

Why do you put Senegal in the middle of the whole conversation now?

Because its existence contradicts your argument. So yeah I want you to address the issue of Senegal for me and how you reconcile it with your stance on Muslim populations within democracies.

Oh yes, you find Senegal soooo interesting because that is the only islam state that proves the point you are trying to make. None other but just Senegal. SO if Senegal did not exist, you would be out of ammunition.

Well, let me pop the Senegal balloon for you. I have mentioned over and over before, if you don't have polarization in a society, than islam will have a different outcome. I have never claimed islam itself is a driving force for violence. It is an enabler, I have told you many times and you rather ignored than to listen. If you have any dispute, in a western society you will use the court system, in an islam state, well, you will behead the guy.

Senegal is 92% sufi. Nobody has any problem with each other because let alone a brach of islam, they all belong to a branch of branch of branch of islam. Think a society of all Mormons, what would go wrong?

And you also forgot to mention Senegal government did take some measures against political islam too. Not a gentlemanly thing to do, since we know you are a Senegal "expert" and you should have known the government interfering to the islamic movement which is not the "democrat" way to run a country. Maybe you would like to explain that part.

So do you have anything other than "Senegal" or should I assume you solely base your whole case on Senegal alone. You don't have any examples what so ever from the birth place of islam, where it should be best read and understood, since it is in their original language, Arabic...

 

[AVG-JOE]

And you're right... the stories coming out of Muslim Africa that involve violence do seem to revolve around more than just religious differences. So what? That just means that Africans are better Muslims than Middle Easterners, ass-u-me-ing the goal truly is a 'religion of peace'.

No it doesn't. It just means that base power structures are institutionally different there.

Which means that their religion is not something that they fight over as much, eh?

That would indicate to me that they're more peaceful than the Arab Muslims, at least with respect to their religious differences.

 

[Osomir]

Which means that their religion is not something that they fight over as much, eh?

I think this is missing the point. They aren't fighting over religion per say, they are fighting over political power.

That would indicate to me that they're more peaceful than the Arab Muslims, at least with respect to their religious differences.

Not really. Sub-saharan Africa hasn't been very well known for peace and stability. while it has been getting better (by a lot) it still has quite active conflict zones.

 

[Osomir]

Oh yes, you find Senegal soooo interesting because that is the only islam state that proves the point you are trying to make. None other but just Senegal. SO if Senegal did not exist, you would be out of ammunition.

It isn't the only one by far, it was merely my first example. Sierra Leone would be another one with a democratically elected leader (who is Christian) in a pretty religiously tolerant majority Muslim country.

You may think Senegal is the only one, but that I think just shows how little you look at Islamic populations outside of the Middle East.

I could continue to list others (and gladly will if you'd like), but I figured it would be easier to go one country at a time.

Well, let me pop the Senegal balloon for you. I have mentioned over and over before, if you don't have polarization in a society, than islam will have a different outcome. I have never claimed islam itself is a driving force for violence. It is an enabler, I have told you many times and you rather ignored than to listen. If you have any dispute, in a western society you will use the court system, in an islam state, well, you will behead the guy.

How many beheadings has the Senegalese government engaged in again?

Senegal is 92% sufi. Nobody has any problem with each other because let alone a brach of islam, they all belong to a branch of branch of branch of islam. Think a society of all Mormons, what would go wrong?

A couple of things:

1.) They aren't all the same branch of Sufi Islam

2.) the Christians of the country certainly aren't Sufis either. If anything such a majority should make it easier for them to mistreat the minority religious populations should they want to.

And you also forgot to mention Senegal government did take some measures against political islam too. Not a gentlemanly thing to do, since we know you are a Senegal "expert" and you should have known the government interfering to the islamic movement which is not the "democrat" way to run a country. Maybe you would like to explain that part.

Senegal's Islamic institutions are pretty active in Senegalese politics and always have been. Senegal merely has a history of religious groups working together. Islamic groups were quite influential under the last presidency too. The trouble that Senegal has is in a very low level civil conflict with rebel nationalist groups in Casamance where Iran is slightly involved.

So do you have anything other than "Senegal" or should I assume you solely base your whole case on Senegal alone. You don't have any examples what so ever from the birth place of islam, where it should be best read and understood, since it is in their original language, Arabic...

For perhaps the dozenth time, I rather feel the need to point out that a vast majority of Muslims aren't Arabs.

 

[alpine]

Oh yes, you find Senegal soooo interesting because that is the only islam state that proves the point you are trying to make. None other but just Senegal. SO if Senegal did not exist, you would be out of ammunition.

It isn't the only one by far, it was merely my first example. Sierra Leone would be another one with a democratically elected leader (who is Christian) in a pretty religiously tolerant majority Muslim country.

You may think Senegal is the only one, but that I think just shows how little you look at Islamic populations outside of the Middle East.

I could continue to list others (and gladly will if you'd like), but I figured it would be easier to go one country at a time.

Well, let me pop the Senegal balloon for you. I have mentioned over and over before, if you don't have polarization in a society, than islam will have a different outcome. I have never claimed islam itself is a driving force for violence. It is an enabler, I have told you many times and you rather ignored than to listen. If you have any dispute, in a western society you will use the court system, in an islam state, well, you will behead the guy.

How many beheadings has the Senegalese government engaged in again?


A couple of things:

1.) They aren't all the same branch of Sufi Islam

2.) the Christians of the country certainly aren't Sufis either. If anything such a majority should make it easier for them to mistreat the minority religious populations should they want to.

And you also forgot to mention Senegal government did take some measures against political islam too. Not a gentlemanly thing to do, since we know you are a Senegal "expert" and you should have known the government interfering to the islamic movement which is not the "democrat" way to run a country. Maybe you would like to explain that part.

Senegal's Islamic institutions are pretty active in Senegalese politics and always have been. Senegal merely has a history of religious groups working together. Islamic groups were quite influential under the last presidency too. The trouble that Senegal has is in a very low level civil conflict with rebel nationalist groups in Casamance where Iran is slightly involved.

So do you have anything other than "Senegal" or should I assume you solely base your whole case on Senegal alone. You don't have any examples what so ever from the birth place of islam, where it should be best read and understood, since it is in their original language, Arabic...

For perhaps the dozenth time, I rather feel the need to point out that a vast majority of Muslims aren't Arabs.

Well, too bad, because I am trying to make a point about the mid east, where the is POLARIZATION(for the millionth time), where you lack of any understanding of what so ever. Put some sunni islamists in any of those countries and we shall see how they cramp in no more than 10 years....

 

[Osomir]

Oh yes, you find Senegal soooo interesting because that is the only islam state that proves the point you are trying to make. None other but just Senegal. SO if Senegal did not exist, you would be out of ammunition.

It isn't the only one by far, it was merely my first example. Sierra Leone would be another one with a democratically elected leader (who is Christian) in a pretty religiously tolerant majority Muslim country.

You may think Senegal is the only one, but that I think just shows how little you look at Islamic populations outside of the Middle East.

I could continue to list others (and gladly will if you'd like), but I figured it would be easier to go one country at a time.



How many beheadings has the Senegalese government engaged in again?


A couple of things:

1.) They aren't all the same branch of Sufi Islam

2.) the Christians of the country certainly aren't Sufis either. If anything such a majority should make it easier for them to mistreat the minority religious populations should they want to.



Senegal's Islamic institutions are pretty active in Senegalese politics and always have been. Senegal merely has a history of religious groups working together. Islamic groups were quite influential under the last presidency too. The trouble that Senegal has is in a very low level civil conflict with rebel nationalist groups in Casamance where Iran is slightly involved.

So do you have anything other than "Senegal" or should I assume you solely base your whole case on Senegal alone. You don't have any examples what so ever from the birth place of islam, where it should be best read and understood, since it is in their original language, Arabic...

For perhaps the dozenth time, I rather feel the need to point out that a vast majority of Muslims aren't Arabs.

Well, too bad, because I am trying to make a point about the mid east, where the is POLARIZATION(for the millionth time), where you lack of any understanding of what so ever. Put some sunni islamists in any of those countries and we shall see how they cramp in no more than 10 years....

This thread is about Islam in general, not just the Middle East there bud.

if you want to ignore a majority of the world's Islamic population simply because you have a hard on for the Middle East that's fine, but it isn't very intellectually honest.

 

[alpine]

It isn't the only one by far, it was merely my first example. Sierra Leone would be another one with a democratically elected leader (who is Christian) in a pretty religiously tolerant majority Muslim country.

You may think Senegal is the only one, but that I think just shows how little you look at Islamic populations outside of the Middle East.

I could continue to list others (and gladly will if you'd like), but I figured it would be easier to go one country at a time.



How many beheadings has the Senegalese government engaged in again?


A couple of things:

1.) They aren't all the same branch of Sufi Islam

2.) the Christians of the country certainly aren't Sufis either. If anything such a majority should make it easier for them to mistreat the minority religious populations should they want to.



Senegal's Islamic institutions are pretty active in Senegalese politics and always have been. Senegal merely has a history of religious groups working together. Islamic groups were quite influential under the last presidency too. The trouble that Senegal has is in a very low level civil conflict with rebel nationalist groups in Casamance where Iran is slightly involved.



For perhaps the dozenth time, I rather feel the need to point out that a vast majority of Muslims aren't Arabs.

Well, too bad, because I am trying to make a point about the mid east, where the is POLARIZATION(for the millionth time), where you lack of any understanding of what so ever. Put some sunni islamists in any of those countries and we shall see how they cramp in no more than 10 years....

This thread is about Islam in general, not just the Middle East there bud.

if you want to ignore a majority of the world's Islamic population simply because you have a hard on for the Middle East that's fine, but it isn't very intellectually honest.

So yes, the Senegal muslims know islam better than the Saudis,.... sure.... hmm....

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

 

[hobelim]

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your sense of smell is quite accurate..

What are the odds that a real atheist would be parroting Islamic propaganda?

whatever he is, mysterious as it may be, someone must have sold him invisible clothes.

 

[longknife]

Ramadan Bomb-a-thon: 13 killed in bomb blast at Sunni mosque in Baghdad

And the holiday traditions continue. "13 killed in bomb blast at Sunni mosque in Baghdad" Jihadwatch July 13, 2013 A bomb exploded outside a Sunni mosque in Baghdad late Saturday, killing at least 13 people leaving prayers Read more @ Ramadan Bomb-a-thon: 13 killed in bomb blast at Sunni mosque in Baghdad - Atlas Shrugs

Scorecard for Day 6

Terror Attacks in the name of The Religion of Peace = 42
Dead Bodies in the name of The Religion of Peace = 237
Terror Attacks and Dead Bodies in the name of any other religion = 0 and 0
By Islamophobes = 0 and 0

Argue all you want – facts don't lie.

 

[Osomir]

So yes, the Senegal muslims know islam better than the Saudis,.... sure.... hmm....

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your sense of smell is quite accurate..

What are the odds that a real atheist would be parroting Islamic propaganda?

whatever he is, mysterious as it may be, someone must have sold him invisible clothes.

I find it a little sad that you have to think of me as a secret Muslim in order for you to feel better about your own arguments.

Doesn't say much for the strength of your posts. Ever think that I might just honestly disagree with your stances, or can you all not conceive of a world where you might actually be wrong, or where someone who studies and works with this stuff might actually disagree with you?

 

[Osomir]

Argue all you want – facts don't lie.

I think how you haven't been able to respond to any of my "arguments" concerning your "facts".

 

[prepster]

We've already talked about this though, that doesn't really fit into what you are talking about because the violence base there are based more around political identity and power and not theology.

In parts of the Middle East political structures and parties can tend to revolve around religious lines (like they can revolve around ethnic lines in say Africa), so political violence tends to also be sectarian violence much in the same way that African ethnic violence tends to be expressions of political violence.

I think the part you are insisting to ignore is that islam is a political religion. It has specific instructions on how to run a state that no other religion has in its context.

So, islam is NOT just a religion as you paint and wish it to be. It is an institution that claims power on people and the state at the same time, pretty much like the church in the mid ages.

Once you miss this nuance, of course you miss the whole point afterwards.

The problem with what you are suggesting if that, if true, all Muslims would have be be Political Islamists. They aren't though, so that rather shatters your theory there, nor do other Muslim majority countries outside of the Middle East and former Ottoman holdings have the same sort of sectarian struggles which also shatters your uniform understanding of Islam.

Once again I feel inclined to point out that Islam is bigger than your Middle Eastern understanding of it.

I concur with your sentiments. As for organized terrorist groups, like Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, and the Haqqani Network, their acts are absolutely contrary to even an orthodox interpretation of Islamic religious doctrine. In the general sense, acts like suicide bombings and bombings in general are strictly forbidden under Islamic religious doctrine, and are more the result of distortion of pre-Islamic tribal customs of revenge, desperate attempts to uphold traditional ethnic, national, or territorial identities as the result of foreign government and central government intervention, and/or the unfortunate culmination of a foreign government and central government backing of armed militant groups.

 

[hobelim]

So yes, the Senegal muslims know islam better than the Saudis,.... sure.... hmm....

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your sense of smell is quite accurate..

What are the odds that a real atheist would be parroting Islamic propaganda?

whatever he is, mysterious as it may be, someone must have sold him invisible clothes.

I find it a little sad that you have to think of me as a secret Muslim in order for you to feel better about your own arguments.

Doesn't say much for the strength of your posts. Ever think that I might just honestly disagree with your stances, or can you all not conceive of a world where you might actually be wrong, or where someone who studies and works with this stuff might actually disagree with you?

Nonsense. By your posts I assumed that you were a Muslim until I saw you claim to be an atheist.

That presented a bit of a logical problem. I know of may tolerant atheists who might defend others right to believe and practice any religion but never in a million years would any of them endorse even one religion that claims a belief in God much less Islam whose founder as recorded by history was a violent and psychotic megalomaniac and a pedophile to boot.

You are not an atheist. Cut the crap already.

If you are an atheist I'm sure you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts on Allah, and his prophet. Why not clear things up?

Do you believe there is no God but Allah?

Do you think that his prophet Mohammed was a great teacher and the finest example for all people about how to live a holy life?

Or, do you believe that there is no such thing as Allah or any God for that matter

and do you believe that Mohammed was deranged?

 

[alpine]

So yes, the Senegal muslims know islam better than the Saudis,.... sure.... hmm....

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your whole argument stinks of islamic propaganda to me. Anybody who is curious of islam, will and shall look at mid east, naturally, and see what it is all about. And than you can argue if it is "intellectually honest" to stand behind that or not...

Your sense of smell is quite accurate..

What are the odds that a real atheist would be parroting Islamic propaganda?

whatever he is, mysterious as it may be, someone must have sold him invisible clothes.

I find it a little sad that you have to think of me as a secret Muslim in order for you to feel better about your own arguments.

Doesn't say much for the strength of your posts. Ever think that I might just honestly disagree with your stances, or can you all not conceive of a world where you might actually be wrong, or where someone who studies and works with this stuff might actually disagree with you?

I did not say that you were a muslim, but that you were full of islamic propaganda.

It is not your fault that you are full of it, because the whole world is full of it. You are just another victim, nothing special.

So next time, you shall make your readings more carefully. If this is the way you are studying mid east, no wonder why you fail miserably...

 

[Osomir]

Nonsense. By your posts I assumed that you were a Muslim until I saw you claim to be an atheist.

That presented a bit of a logical problem. I know of may tolerant atheists who might defend others right to believe and practice any religion but never in a million years would any of them endorse even one religion that claims a belief in God much less Islam whose founder as recorded by history was a violent and psychotic megalomaniac and a pedophile to boot.

I don't endorse Islam, or any religion, i have an opinion concerning religion in general because I work with it a lot within my area of specialty: economic development and conflict. I've also done a lot of counter terrorism work so I am pretty familiar with Islamism and Islamic populations in general across the developing world.

My opinions stem from having both formal education and years of work experience in these areas.

You are not an atheist. Cut the crap already.

Lol. See my above post then. It's sad that instead of being able to actually discuss things with me you have to resort to a rather childish witch hunt in order to make yourself feel better about your stance.

If you are an atheist I'm sure you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts on Allah, and his prophet. Why not clear things up?

I believe I already offered to discuss Islamic Scripture with you did I not?

I'd be perfectly willing to discuss Christian theology with you as well. I have fairly strong opinions there as well.

Do you believe there is no God but Allah?

No. I'm an atheist there sport.

Do you think that his prophet Mohammed was a great teacher and the finest example for all people about how to live a holy life?

No, and in fact theologically I find a lot of Salafists hypocrites in their devotion to Muhammad and to the use of Hadith's as a source for divine law. Early Muslims used to criticize Christians for deifying Christ and considered it polytheism and yet some Muslims do the same thing with Muhammad by taking a moral man (who wasn't perfect) and making everything he supposedly said did or approved of akin to divine religious law. To me that reeks of theological polytheism.

Or, do you believe that there is no such thing as Allah or any God for that matter

I don't believe that a godhead exists: hence my self declaration as an atheist. Not sure why that is so hard for you to swallow. Just because I am an atheist doesn't mean that I have to be completely ignorant about other religions.

and do you believe that Mohammed was deranged?

Historically speaking? No, I don't find much evidence of that in the early histories.

 

[Osomir]

I did not say that you were a muslim, but that you were full of islamic propaganda.

Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean that it is propaganda.

It is not your fault that you are full of it, because the whole world is full of it. You are just another victim, nothing special.

Big words for someone who has such trouble addressing any of my points and who didn't even know about Senegal or Sierra Leone.

 

[Osomir]

This is a poor deflection for your inabilities to address my posts.

 

[alpine]

I did not say that you were a muslim, but that you were full of islamic propaganda.

Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean that it is propaganda.

It is not your fault that you are full of it, because the whole world is full of it. You are just another victim, nothing special.

Big words for someone who has such trouble addressing any of my points and who didn't even know about Senegal or Sierra Leone.

No, I know it is a propaganda because I listened to it my WHOLE LIFE.

You know what we, we the people who did RUN AWAY from islam call your kind, "butts of islam"

You are just a but of islam, because you have a "but" for anything that is connected to islam. You are simply denying facts. I have been telling you to the details of how the election campaigns were run by islamists, and all you could come up against that was.... Senegal.

I did put up the word of ISLAMISTS THEMSELVES, and you once again, had Senegal.

If you are not taking ISLAMISTS THEMSELVES admitting everything that you were trying to deny all along into account and still telling me the same stories, I don't know what else you would take into account, ahhh, except Senegal of course.

You are funny, I am quoting the islamist leaders, you argue that they are the otherwise.

I am QUOTING them for gods sake

And you still argue otherwise.

An islamist is telling you democracy and islam can not co-exist, and you still argue otherwise

I don't have a word for you my friend...

But islamists have

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBqSwjjzOSc]Recep Tayyip Erdogan democracy in his own words - YouTube[/ame]

you got a hard on, don't you...

 

[Osomir]

No, I know it is a propaganda because I listened to it my WHOLE LIFE.

once again for over the dozenth time I feel inclined to point out to you that your singular experience from whatever country you're from rather fails to take into account the vast majority of Muslims that live in the world. I'm not sure why you think you're so special in that sense, but despite your grand claims of being such an expert you have repeatedly failed to address the bulk of my points and have routinely done little more than deflect and engage in personal attacks.

Pretty pathetic performance overall.

You are just a but of islam, because you have a "but" for anything that is connected to islam. You are simply denying facts.

What "facts" have i denied? Would you care to have a formal debate concerning them with moderator oversight? Could do a bet of some kind if you're interested.

I have been telling you to the details of how the election campaigns were run by islamists, and all you could come up against that was.... Senegal.

Nice strawman, I started with Senegal and you couldn't even provide any counter to my FIRST example, so I gave you Sierra Leone and you simply ignored it. Not very good quality there, and not a very strong case for your argument.

I did put up the word of ISLAMISTS THEMSELVES, and you once again, had Senegal.

All Islamists aren't the same there champ. You seem to have a particularly difficult time accepting the basic fact that the world is more diverse than you give it credit for.

And once again you are merely deflecting instead of actually addressing any of the specifics of my post which is pretty telling in terms of your confidence in your own argument. You can't even seem to defend your own assertions.