record deficit

[Harpy Eagle]

When I get home I will check out your article.

And you'll find an article that will explain how people make PLENTY of money to save they just don't.

Because again, this sounds like another right wing talking point that I used to hear a lot during the Bush 2000's. Tired old arguments coming back out.

Thanks for calling me right wing! I do not get that much on here!

Here is my talking point for you. Anyone that has a smart phone with a data plan and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

Anyone that eats out once a week and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

I don't know about you but most people these days don't have a land line. Their cell phone is their only phone. Especially with people who are younger.

I haven't had a land line in years. My only phone is a cell phone.

Are you saying that it's not important to have a phone? It's very important to have a phone especially if a person is a parent or is disabled.

Cell phone rates are very cheap these days. It's not like when I started carrying one in 1993. Those bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Today, I have unlimited calls and unlimited texts with paying 12 dollars a gig for internet on my phone. People can pay as little as 15 dollars a month for a phone.

As for going out to eat, people who are strapped for cash don't go out to eat a lot. Just saying people go out to eat and applying it to everyone isn't fair or honest.

The reality is that most everyone in America isn't paid a living wage or what they're worth. People take multiple jobs to make ends meet. Reality is that people today don't make enough money to save for retirement. A lot of employers don't offer any sort of pension plan or even a 401k.

When the federal minimum wage has been 7.25 a hour since the bush boy years, there's a problem. When people who are working are paid so low wages that they qualify for pubic assistance, there's a very big problem.

Saying having a phone and eating is causing people to not be able to save for retirement is very simplistic and not honest. You're ignoring the real cause.

The argument you fricken loons make is pathetic. If you're stupid enough to be working for $7.25/hour as a career, have two kids and go out to eat a couple times a week, you deserve your misery. BTW, going out to eat is not exactly the same as "eating" as some of you would like to suggest. So you go right ahead and claim you need a "living" wage of $15/hour and when some of you loose your jobs over it or can't afford the increased prices, due to the increased wages, you'll be right back here pissing and moaning about how unfair life is.

I don't care if McD cuts their staff in half because of automation as long as they pay the workers they need a living wage. Like, a career. McD is making billions of dollars you greedy fucks.

Then what happens to those that no longer have that job and have no where to get a job?

 

[sealybobo]

You just said almost anyone could save more if they chose to. Wasn't that true when Obama was president? So how is today any different for blue collar? It's not.

Who the POTUS is has no bearing on one's ability to save money. Why do you let such things rule your life?

When Trump said he was going to make America great again didn't you assume he was going to take us back to when our parents could work 30 years and retire at 65? Not only that they did it with 1 income.

So don't give me that MAGA bullshit unless you think America was great back in 2005 because that's what Trump has taken us back to.

I assumed Trump was full of shit and and just had a cool sounding campaign slogan.

I don't. Remember it was your side that told blacks and blue collar what do they have to lose. As if you were going to make things better for them. Have you? Not really. Trickle down doesn't work. Blue collar are still struggling like mofos.

You guys attacked labor starting right before Reagan, you got that scumbag in the White House, the middle class took a huge step back. He attacked labor. Then Bush 2 really fucked this country up. Clinton years were great and a surplus. Little did we know the GOP House and Senate were still working on their war on the middle class.

WTF is wrong with Americans. So fucking stupid.

 

[sealybobo]

And you'll find an article that will explain how people make PLENTY of money to save they just don't.

Because again, this sounds like another right wing talking point that I used to hear a lot during the Bush 2000's. Tired old arguments coming back out.

Thanks for calling me right wing! I do not get that much on here!

Here is my talking point for you. Anyone that has a smart phone with a data plan and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

Anyone that eats out once a week and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

I don't know about you but most people these days don't have a land line. Their cell phone is their only phone. Especially with people who are younger.

I haven't had a land line in years. My only phone is a cell phone.

Are you saying that it's not important to have a phone? It's very important to have a phone especially if a person is a parent or is disabled.

Cell phone rates are very cheap these days. It's not like when I started carrying one in 1993. Those bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Today, I have unlimited calls and unlimited texts with paying 12 dollars a gig for internet on my phone. People can pay as little as 15 dollars a month for a phone.

As for going out to eat, people who are strapped for cash don't go out to eat a lot. Just saying people go out to eat and applying it to everyone isn't fair or honest.

The reality is that most everyone in America isn't paid a living wage or what they're worth. People take multiple jobs to make ends meet. Reality is that people today don't make enough money to save for retirement. A lot of employers don't offer any sort of pension plan or even a 401k.

When the federal minimum wage has been 7.25 a hour since the bush boy years, there's a problem. When people who are working are paid so low wages that they qualify for pubic assistance, there's a very big problem.

Saying having a phone and eating is causing people to not be able to save for retirement is very simplistic and not honest. You're ignoring the real cause.

The argument you fricken loons make is pathetic. If you're stupid enough to be working for $7.25/hour as a career, have two kids and go out to eat a couple times a week, you deserve your misery. BTW, going out to eat is not exactly the same as "eating" as some of you would like to suggest. So you go right ahead and claim you need a "living" wage of $15/hour and when some of you loose your jobs over it or can't afford the increased prices, due to the increased wages, you'll be right back here pissing and moaning about how unfair life is.

I don't care if McD cuts their staff in half because of automation as long as they pay the workers they need a living wage. Like, a career. McD is making billions of dollars you greedy fucks.

Then what happens to those that no longer have that job and have no where to get a job?

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I don't. Remember it was your side that told blacks and blue collar what do they have to lose. As if you were going to make things better for them. Have you? Not really. Trickle down doesn't work. Blue collar are still struggling like mofos.

You guys attacked labor starting right before Reagan, you got that scumbag in the White House, the middle class took a huge step back. He attacked labor. Then Bush 2 really fucked this country up. Clinton years were great and a surplus. Little did we know the GOP House and Senate were still working on their war on the middle class.

WTF is wrong with Americans. So fucking stupid.

You are not too bright. My side is the Libertarian Party, not the Repubs. Last time I voted for a Repub was 1988.

It is not the job of the government to make things "better" for people, why do people like you always rely on the government instead of your own skills and hard work?

Trickle down doesn't work
Trickle up doesn't work

The only thing that works is the government getting the fuck out of the way.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

There are better jobs to be had, we have a million more open positions than people to fill them. Companies are willing to train people that are willing to work hard and show up for work.

 

[sealybobo]

I wonder what excuses the pseudocon tard herd will make when Trump shatters Obama's debt record.

"Look! A squirrel!"

Barack Obama: Added $8.588 trillion, a 74 percent increase from the $11.657 trillion debt at the end of Bush’s last budget, FY 2009.
George W. Bush: Added $5.849 trillion, a 101 percent increase from the $5.8 trillion debt at the end of Clinton's last budget, FY 2001.
Bill Clinton: Added $1.396 trillion, a 32 percent increase from the $4.4 trillion debt at the end of George H.W. Bush's last budget, FY 1993.
George H.W. Bush: Added $1.554 trillion, a 54 percent increase from the $2.857 trillion debt at the end of Reagan's last budget, FY 1989.
Ronald Reagan: Added $1.86 trillion, a 186 percent increase from the $998 billion debt at the end of Carter's last budget, FY 1981.
Jimmy Carter: Added $299 billion, a 43 percent increase from the $699 billion debt at the end of Ford's last budget, FY 1977.
Gerald Ford: Added $224 billion, a 47 percent increase from the $475 billion debt at the end of Nixon's last budget, FY 1974.
Richard Nixon: Added $121 billion, a 34 percent increase from the $354 billion debt at the end of President Johnson's last budget, FY 1969.
Lyndon B. Johnson: Added $42 billion, a 13 percent increase from the $312 billion debt at the end of President Kennedy's last budget, FY 1964.
John F. Kennedy: Added $23 billion, an 8 percent increase from the $289 billion debt at the end of Eisenhower's last budget, FY 1961.
Dwight Eisenhower: Added $23 billion, a 9 percent increase from the $266 billion debt at the end of Truman's last budget, FY 1953.
Harry Truman: Added $7 billion, a 3 percent increase from the $259 billion debt at the end of President Roosevelt’s last budget, FY 1945.
Franklin D. Roosevelt: Added $236 billion, a 1,048 percent increase from the $23 billion debt at the end of Hoover's last budget, FY 1933.
Herbert Hoover: Added $6 billion, a 33 percent increase from the $17 billion debt at the end of Coolidge's last budget, FY 1929.
Calvin Coolidge: Subtracted $5 billion from the debt, a 26 percent decrease from the $21 billion debt at the end of Harding's last budget, FY 1923.
Warren G. Harding: Subtracted $2 billion from the debt, a 7 percent decrease from the $24 billion debt at the end of Wilson's last budget, FY 1921.
Woodrow Wilson: Added $21 billion to the debt, a 727 percent increase from the $2.9 billion debt at the end of Taft's last budget, FY 1913.

What will Trump's numbers look like?

 

[sealybobo]

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

There are better jobs to be had, we have a million more open positions than people to fill them. Companies are willing to train people that are willing to work hard and show up for work.

If that were true those companies would send their recruiters out to Walmart and snatch up those workers.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't. Remember it was your side that told blacks and blue collar what do they have to lose. As if you were going to make things better for them. Have you? Not really. Trickle down doesn't work. Blue collar are still struggling like mofos.

You guys attacked labor starting right before Reagan, you got that scumbag in the White House, the middle class took a huge step back. He attacked labor. Then Bush 2 really fucked this country up. Clinton years were great and a surplus. Little did we know the GOP House and Senate were still working on their war on the middle class.

WTF is wrong with Americans. So fucking stupid.

You are not too bright. My side is the Libertarian Party, not the Repubs. Last time I voted for a Repub was 1988.

It is not the job of the government to make things "better" for people, why do people like you always rely on the government instead of your own skills and hard work?

Trickle down doesn't work
Trickle up doesn't work

The only thing that works is the government getting the fuck out of the way.

Libertarians are the Republicans retarded cousins.

 

[sealybobo]

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

There are better jobs to be had, we have a million more open positions than people to fill them. Companies are willing to train people that are willing to work hard and show up for work.

This was true when Obama was president too. They're called trade jobs and not every person working at Walmart or McD can do those jobs and many Americans have applied and didn't get a call back because they don't have experience.

Do you think Trump's unemployment numbers are real? LOL. Now the numbers are real? LOL

 

[sealybobo]

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

There are better jobs to be had, we have a million more open positions than people to fill them. Companies are willing to train people that are willing to work hard and show up for work.

I don't know about that. There are a few people at my company who would gladly leave for a better job if things were like they were in the mid 90's.

For example why are the feds going to lower interest rates? If the economy is booming like you say it is, why would they have to do that? This is a fake ass economy. Those tax breaks gave us about 2 years of so so growth and prosperity but they say the stimulus from those tax breaks is over.

Anyways, I'm killing it so hey fuck the rest of you. I just disagree with conservatives on almost every level.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I don't. Remember it was your side that told blacks and blue collar what do they have to lose. As if you were going to make things better for them. Have you? Not really. Trickle down doesn't work. Blue collar are still struggling like mofos.

You guys attacked labor starting right before Reagan, you got that scumbag in the White House, the middle class took a huge step back. He attacked labor. Then Bush 2 really fucked this country up. Clinton years were great and a surplus. Little did we know the GOP House and Senate were still working on their war on the middle class.

WTF is wrong with Americans. So fucking stupid.

You are not too bright. My side is the Libertarian Party, not the Repubs. Last time I voted for a Repub was 1988.

It is not the job of the government to make things "better" for people, why do people like you always rely on the government instead of your own skills and hard work?

Trickle down doesn't work
Trickle up doesn't work

The only thing that works is the government getting the fuck out of the way.

Libertarians are the Republicans retarded cousins.

And the Repubs say that Libertarians are the Dems retarded cousins.

That is what makes being a Libertarian so much fun.

We sit on the hill watching you sheep in your pens on the left and the right thinking you are so very different from the other side...

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

There are better jobs to be had, we have a million more open positions than people to fill them. Companies are willing to train people that are willing to work hard and show up for work.

This was true when Obama was president too. They're called trade jobs and not every person working at Walmart or McD can do those jobs and many Americans have applied and didn't get a call back because they don't have experience.

Do you think Trump's unemployment numbers are real? LOL. Now the numbers are real? LOL

Yes it was true then, that is sort of my point. In your world everything revolves around who is sitting in the White House. For the vast majority of us out here, who is sitting in the White House has very little bearing on our lives. I got a raise after Trump was elected...not because Trump was elected but because of me and my work and my willingness to better myself and make myself more valuable to my employer.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I don't know about that. There are a few people at my company who would gladly leave for a better job if things were like they were in the mid 90's.

For example why are the feds going to lower interest rates? If the economy is booming like you say it is, why would they have to do that? This is a fake ass economy. Those tax breaks gave us about 2 years of so so growth and prosperity but they say the stimulus from those tax breaks is over.

Anyways, I'm killing it so hey fuck the rest of you. I just disagree with conservatives on almost every level.

The economy is not booming, I have been saying that for years. Trump is only slightly better than Obama in this area. The Fed will give in to the pressure because they are weak, and it is a huge mistake to lower the rates now. We will suffer for it later, but Trump knows the economy is his only chance at reelection so I will try and give it one last sugar high.

 

[sealybobo]

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

There are better jobs to be had, we have a million more open positions than people to fill them. Companies are willing to train people that are willing to work hard and show up for work.

This was true when Obama was president too. They're called trade jobs and not every person working at Walmart or McD can do those jobs and many Americans have applied and didn't get a call back because they don't have experience.

Do you think Trump's unemployment numbers are real? LOL. Now the numbers are real? LOL

Yes it was true then, that is sort of my point. In your world everything revolves around who is sitting in the White House. For the vast majority of us out here, who is sitting in the White House has very little bearing on our lives. I got a raise after Trump was elected...not because Trump was elected but because of me and my work and my willingness to better myself and make myself more valuable to my employer.

I got a HUGE raise after Trump was elected too for the exact same reason. I was making about $50K and got bumped up to $65K plus $30K in commissions. $95K.

Everyone else at my company is jealous. But they don't produce like I do. Very few workers do. Most workers just aren't that important to the companies they work for. The scheduler, the service techs, the marketing director, the controller, the office manager. So everyone here has kids and mortgages and they make $50-$60K. I sell around $150,000 a month and we make about 20% profit on those sales. That means every month I'm making my company around $30,000. Even if you take out the $8K a month they pay me I'm still making my company $22,000 every month.

Really screw the rest of them. They all were working here before me. Any one of them could have stepped up and taken my job before I got here. No one wanted it. Now they are all jealous. That's $264,000 a year I make the owners. They are Germans in Germany. When they come to town they always make sure to come by and thank me.

 

[sealybobo]

I don't. Remember it was your side that told blacks and blue collar what do they have to lose. As if you were going to make things better for them. Have you? Not really. Trickle down doesn't work. Blue collar are still struggling like mofos.

You guys attacked labor starting right before Reagan, you got that scumbag in the White House, the middle class took a huge step back. He attacked labor. Then Bush 2 really fucked this country up. Clinton years were great and a surplus. Little did we know the GOP House and Senate were still working on their war on the middle class.

WTF is wrong with Americans. So fucking stupid.

You are not too bright. My side is the Libertarian Party, not the Repubs. Last time I voted for a Repub was 1988.

It is not the job of the government to make things "better" for people, why do people like you always rely on the government instead of your own skills and hard work?

Trickle down doesn't work
Trickle up doesn't work

The only thing that works is the government getting the fuck out of the way.

Libertarians are the Republicans retarded cousins.

And the Repubs say that Libertarians are the Dems retarded cousins.

That is what makes being a Libertarian so much fun.

We sit on the hill watching you sheep in your pens on the left and the right thinking you are so very different from the other side...

No Republican ever said a libertarian is connected to the Democratic party. No one EVER. Libertarians are to the GOP like Bernie Sanders is to the Democratic party.

 

[Thinker101]

When I get home I will check out your article.

And you'll find an article that will explain how people make PLENTY of money to save they just don't.

Because again, this sounds like another right wing talking point that I used to hear a lot during the Bush 2000's. Tired old arguments coming back out.

Thanks for calling me right wing! I do not get that much on here!

Here is my talking point for you. Anyone that has a smart phone with a data plan and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

Anyone that eats out once a week and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

I don't know about you but most people these days don't have a land line. Their cell phone is their only phone. Especially with people who are younger.

I haven't had a land line in years. My only phone is a cell phone.

Are you saying that it's not important to have a phone? It's very important to have a phone especially if a person is a parent or is disabled.

Cell phone rates are very cheap these days. It's not like when I started carrying one in 1993. Those bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Today, I have unlimited calls and unlimited texts with paying 12 dollars a gig for internet on my phone. People can pay as little as 15 dollars a month for a phone.

As for going out to eat, people who are strapped for cash don't go out to eat a lot. Just saying people go out to eat and applying it to everyone isn't fair or honest.

The reality is that most everyone in America isn't paid a living wage or what they're worth. People take multiple jobs to make ends meet. Reality is that people today don't make enough money to save for retirement. A lot of employers don't offer any sort of pension plan or even a 401k.

When the federal minimum wage has been 7.25 a hour since the bush boy years, there's a problem. When people who are working are paid so low wages that they qualify for pubic assistance, there's a very big problem.

Saying having a phone and eating is causing people to not be able to save for retirement is very simplistic and not honest. You're ignoring the real cause.

The argument you fricken loons make is pathetic. If you're stupid enough to be working for $7.25/hour as a career, have two kids and go out to eat a couple times a week, you deserve your misery. BTW, going out to eat is not exactly the same as "eating" as some of you would like to suggest. So you go right ahead and claim you need a "living" wage of $15/hour and when some of you loose your jobs over it or can't afford the increased prices, due to the increased wages, you'll be right back here pissing and moaning about how unfair life is.

I don't care if McD cuts their staff in half because of automation as long as they pay the workers they need a living wage. Like, a career. McD is making billions of dollars you greedy fucks.

Of course you don't, hopefully your job isn't one of them they cut.

 

[Thinker101]

Thanks for calling me right wing! I do not get that much on here!

Here is my talking point for you. Anyone that has a smart phone with a data plan and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

Anyone that eats out once a week and says they do not make enough to save is lying.

I don't know about you but most people these days don't have a land line. Their cell phone is their only phone. Especially with people who are younger.

I haven't had a land line in years. My only phone is a cell phone.

Are you saying that it's not important to have a phone? It's very important to have a phone especially if a person is a parent or is disabled.

Cell phone rates are very cheap these days. It's not like when I started carrying one in 1993. Those bills were hundreds of dollars a month. Today, I have unlimited calls and unlimited texts with paying 12 dollars a gig for internet on my phone. People can pay as little as 15 dollars a month for a phone.

As for going out to eat, people who are strapped for cash don't go out to eat a lot. Just saying people go out to eat and applying it to everyone isn't fair or honest.

The reality is that most everyone in America isn't paid a living wage or what they're worth. People take multiple jobs to make ends meet. Reality is that people today don't make enough money to save for retirement. A lot of employers don't offer any sort of pension plan or even a 401k.

When the federal minimum wage has been 7.25 a hour since the bush boy years, there's a problem. When people who are working are paid so low wages that they qualify for pubic assistance, there's a very big problem.

Saying having a phone and eating is causing people to not be able to save for retirement is very simplistic and not honest. You're ignoring the real cause.

The argument you fricken loons make is pathetic. If you're stupid enough to be working for $7.25/hour as a career, have two kids and go out to eat a couple times a week, you deserve your misery. BTW, going out to eat is not exactly the same as "eating" as some of you would like to suggest. So you go right ahead and claim you need a "living" wage of $15/hour and when some of you loose your jobs over it or can't afford the increased prices, due to the increased wages, you'll be right back here pissing and moaning about how unfair life is.

I don't care if McD cuts their staff in half because of automation as long as they pay the workers they need a living wage. Like, a career. McD is making billions of dollars you greedy fucks.

Then what happens to those that no longer have that job and have no where to get a job?

Someone else said if you are pathetic enough to be working for $7.25 hr. I agree. NO ONE except high school kids should work for that much. But there aren't better jobs to be had or those people would gladly take them. Unfortunately the new America doesn't offer GM and Ford jobs. We now offer Walmart and McD.

And good luck trying to pay for college to get out of that shitty job. The rich have won.

Well, the good news is there are other ways to get out of a "shitty" job, the bad news for you loons is that it requires some effort...dumbass.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I don't. Remember it was your side that told blacks and blue collar what do they have to lose. As if you were going to make things better for them. Have you? Not really. Trickle down doesn't work. Blue collar are still struggling like mofos.

You guys attacked labor starting right before Reagan, you got that scumbag in the White House, the middle class took a huge step back. He attacked labor. Then Bush 2 really fucked this country up. Clinton years were great and a surplus. Little did we know the GOP House and Senate were still working on their war on the middle class.

WTF is wrong with Americans. So fucking stupid.

You are not too bright. My side is the Libertarian Party, not the Repubs. Last time I voted for a Repub was 1988.

It is not the job of the government to make things "better" for people, why do people like you always rely on the government instead of your own skills and hard work?

Trickle down doesn't work
Trickle up doesn't work

The only thing that works is the government getting the fuck out of the way.

Libertarians are the Republicans retarded cousins.

And the Repubs say that Libertarians are the Dems retarded cousins.

That is what makes being a Libertarian so much fun.

We sit on the hill watching you sheep in your pens on the left and the right thinking you are so very different from the other side...

No Republican ever said a libertarian is connected to the Democratic party. No one EVER. Libertarians are to the GOP like Bernie Sanders is to the Democratic party.

are you kidding, I get it about 100 times a month on this board. We are just Dem lite according to the wingers on the right.

 

[ColonelAngus]

Trump should not sign any budget with less than a 20% across the board cut. Period. Shut the fucker down and fire all non essential personnel.

Are we going to wait until we are fucking Greece to do anything?

 

[Siete]

Trump should not sign any budget with less than a 20% across the board cut. Period. Shut the fucker down and fire all non essential personnel.

Are we going to wait until we are fucking Greece to do anything?

and you kiss his ass for this -

POLITICO analysis: At $2.3 trillion cost, Trump tax cuts leave big gap