Rip up NAFTA, apply 15-20% border tariff and 10's of thousands of jobs will be recovered from Canada

[BluesLegend]

Trump is one man, lets remember we still have the idiots in congress to deal with. Congress has allowed other countries to steal our jobs for decades.

Look, congress uses our jobs as currency, they trade our jobs to other countries for favors and kickbacks, or to benefit a donor or special interest group. This corruption has laid waste to entire industries in the USA.

I wish Trump luck but people lets remember, he's fighting the DC establishment a corrupt cesspool.

How does another country "steal" our jobs? No, we seek out cheap labor and those places where we can pollute to hearts content

if you want to reduce pollution look no further than Dem run cities. Seattle recently spilled over 200 million gallons of putrid untreated human sewage into Puget Sound, they had to close the beaches it was that nasty.

Fake news !

That was an accident as a result of a big storm .

Trump purposely undoes a reg that now allows coal companies to throw their pollution into local
Streams .

Mountain top removal is one of the dirtiest forms of mining ever done by man. And the orange clown has given the coal companies a pass to destroy entire watersheds.

Learn more about mountaintop removal coal mining

RECLAMATION
While reclamation efforts are required by federal law, coal companies often receive waivers from state agencies with the idea that economic development will occur on the newly flattened land. In reality, most sites receive little more than a spraying of exotic grass seed, and less than 3 percent of reclaimed mountaintop removal sites are used for economic development. According to a U.S. Environmental Protection Agency impact statement on mountaintop removal in Appalachia, it may take hundreds of years for a forest to re-establish itself on the mine site.

Images of Mountaintop Removal Mining

Mother nature routinely removes the tops of mountains just relax lib.

 

[shockedcanadian]

Is the cost of labor that much cheaper in Canada?

Outraged Canadian has a hate on for Canada and is only staying here because he can't get into the US. The Canadian government is, apparently keeping him from leaving. Or so he says.

Huh? I have been to America 3 or 4 times over the last eight years or so, where do you get your information? The Canadian government had my wife and I detained some years ago and it began the odyssey of me reaching out to the U.S government and corporations there to understand what is going on in American businesses here since I was fully aware of the real reasons Canada wanted me detained, and it was my place to ensure America knew too.

I've had issues with Canada, clearly. After I blew the whistle and contacted the security apparatus to have them answer for their abuses against IBM in particular where I worked and in which they were caught operating covertly. Now, unless this is suddenly an acceptable tactic by Canada and other foreign governments, I would expect that the American government and Americans in general wouldn't be supportive of this, especially with America losing so many jobs to Canada through NAFTA.

Maybe it is you who is working to protect Canadian abusers, I certainly won't. American companies are being entered with covertly, tampered, experiencing intervention in the free market contrary to NAFTA and other International trade deals. Trump will have to deal with this or it will continue unabated. You can be sure, unless Trump takes a firm approach to Canada, Mexico and China and have the abuses addressed, America will not recover nearly as many jobs as is required.

Just as the economy requires revenue and cost cutting, the job market requires both expansion AND the withdrawal of jobs from Canada, Mexico and China back into America.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Trump and his team can't keep his eye off of this issue, if he does, the Democrats will sweep in and take away those who left their party and voted GOP, it's a guarantee. It is by far the #1 reason why he won the election from what I can glean. People want unfair trade deals to be eliminated and jobs to return. After he deals with Mexico and Canada, he needs to work on he China unfair file. This will be heavy lifting, but will be in the best interest of American workers and the future.

This means applying the border tariff to Canada, ripping up NAFTA (which is violated by Canada all the time anyways, as you will read from me). This will ensure American businesses avoid Canada, and, in many cases, move jobs back to America from Canada since any perceived benefit will be gone. Coupled with the tax cuts, this is a powerful antidote.

As someone who considers himself a fiscal conservative and who would never have prescribed to increased tariffs, this has to be done. Globalization requires tweaking, I've stated it before, it has become far too unequal for National economies of liberty loving nations and a massive and unequal drain of jobs from these same countries. Meaning less revenue, a withering middle class and a future that s bleak.

Furthermore, even the globalists need to understand something very important, if America fails, the world leader will be China. Not only will human rights along the world suffer from such a realisation, by osmosis, the watering down of American individualism and rights will be eroded too.

Why do you think the US and the world is richer than it's ever been with lower tariffs? Yes, the US might see some short term gains, but over the long term, tariffs will hurt the US badly.

 

[miketx]

The future is open trade, not restrictive trade. All high tariffs accomplish is retaliation and a sinking global economy.

Why do you always ignore points that make your rant false? Like for example, we are talking about FAIR trade. Why leave that word out? Can you tell us? I won't hold my breath.

How do tariffs result in fair trade? History teaches us that they lead to a decrease in trade. What's fair about that?

Who said anything abut tariffs, lib? I said fair trade, fair to the United States. I don't care about other countries. Since you do, why don't you move to one?

 

[Tehon]

Trump and his team can't keep his eye off of this issue, if he does, the Democrats will sweep in and take away those who left their party and voted GOP, it's a guarantee. It is by far the #1 reason why he won the election from what I can glean. People want unfair trade deals to be eliminated and jobs to return. After he deals with Mexico and Canada, he needs to work on he China unfair file. This will be heavy lifting, but will be in the best interest of American workers and the future.

This means applying the border tariff to Canada, ripping up NAFTA (which is violated by Canada all the time anyways, as you will read from me). This will ensure American businesses avoid Canada, and, in many cases, move jobs back to America from Canada since any perceived benefit will be gone. Coupled with the tax cuts, this is a powerful antidote.

As someone who considers himself a fiscal conservative and who would never have prescribed to increased tariffs, this has to be done. Globalization requires tweaking, I've stated it before, it has become far too unequal for National economies of liberty loving nations and a massive and unequal drain of jobs from these same countries. Meaning less revenue, a withering middle class and a future that s bleak.

Furthermore, even the globalists need to understand something very important, if America fails, the world leader will be China. Not only will human rights along the world suffer from such a realisation, by osmosis, the watering down of American individualism and rights will be eroded too.

Why do you think the US and the world is richer than it's ever been with lower tariffs? Yes, the US might see some short term gains, but over the long term, tariffs will hurt the US badly.

GDP is not a good indicator of the health of a society. While the GDP has increased, the top 1% has acquired 40% of the wealth and the bottom 80% only 7% of the wealth in the US. Obviously we are doing something wrong and Americans are already hurting badly. This disparity in wealth further complicates our political processes as the wealthiest among us have enough income to own the political process. Doing nothing, which is what I am hearing from the so called liberals here, is socially irresponsible.

 

[NYcarbineer]

No. Which begs the question, why does Canada have 100's of thousands, possibly millions of U.S jobs?

Our trade deficit with Canada is small. A large portion of Canada's exports to the US are raw materials such as oil, minerals, lumber. You can't move a Canadian lumberjack job to the US.

You can't move a Canadian lumberjack job to the US.

Why not? We moved US lumberjack jobs for the stupid spotted owl.

Bullshit. We move US lumberjack jobs because we over logged in the 80's. Also, many of the jobs in the woods and mills became mechanized, with a machine doing the work of 10 to 30 men.

With at least 10,000 jobs in the Pacific Northwest expected to be lost so as to save some of nation's oldest trees and the owls that live among them, loggers and sawmill workers here are demanding economic compensation from the Federal Government.


10,000 Are Expected to Lose Jobs to Spotted Owl

Old growth is now only 5% of the forest. Enough to provide a few jobs for a few years, and then what? We clear cut like fools, and now are paying for it. Paying for it with the loss of salmon spawning grounds, and loss of soil from the runoff on bare ground.

Canada has extremely rigid and strict forestry regulations, so the issue between the two countries is non-existent.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The future is open trade, not restrictive trade. All high tariffs accomplish is retaliation and a sinking global economy.

Why do you always ignore points that make your rant false? Like for example, we are talking about FAIR trade. Why leave that word out? Can you tell us? I won't hold my breath.

How do tariffs result in fair trade? History teaches us that they lead to a decrease in trade. What's fair about that?

Who said anything abut tariffs, lib? I said fair trade, fair to the United States. I don't care about other countries. Since you do, why don't you move to one?

How do you propose to compete with $1 an hour labor producing goods imported into the US?

 

[usmbguest5318]

There is a sum called the "terms of trade effect" (TTE) of a tariff. The TTE is essentially the gain to a domestic economy resulting from forcing a foreign nation to accept a lower selling price when selling within the economy of the country that imposed the tariff. The TTE appears only when large countries [1] use their size as a lever in trade. The reason the TTE exists only with large countries is that their demand can affect the world price of a good.


Optimal Tariffs:
Trump is talking about optimal tariffs because it's technically possible -- within the context of positive economics -- to implement a tariff that is actually beneficial to the levying nation. Such a tariff is called an "optimal tariff." That such a thing exists is (presumably and giving him the benefit of the doubt -- it's not as though he's actually stated so) why Trump is talking about tariffs. If one is of a mind to implement a tariff, whether it'll be good or bad is really not a matter of politics. Empirical economics can identify whether it will or will not be beneficial to the tariff levying country, provided one identifies one's assumptions, the tariff rate, the relevant demand curves for the good in question (the rate generally has to be good-specific) and a few other metrics. Neither Trump nor any of his people have shared that information; thus the merit of his tariff proposal is at best ambiguous, and in terms of "small country" [1] models, decidedly a bad idea.

If/when Trump demonstrates the TTE exceeds the sum of domestic inefficiency losses (producer and consumer sides) wrought by his proposed tariffs, I'll support his tariff. To understand why I say that, watch the following brief video.

Domestic Welfare Effects of Large Country Tariff [2]

​

If you watched the video, try and map out using graphs of your own what it would take for the TTE to actually outweigh the cost inefficiencies. When TTE exceeds domestic inefficiency, what's going on is the tariff imposing country is maximizing the difference between the effects on foreign supplies and the inefficiencies created domestically, one can have what's called an "optimal tariff." At what tariff rate does the optimal tariff occur for any given product? I don't know....That's what anyone proposing a tariff needs to show so the matter is no longer ambiguous, thus political.

Additional References:

• For "low information" folks: The Optimum Tariff (With Diagram) -- It's "quick and dirty," but don't go running off at the mouth just because you read this.
• For "medium-information" folks: You can hold a reasonable discussion with anyone using the info found on the following pages (all from the same site - the bullet items are just what one would get by clicking "next" if one started at the first link):
  • The Price Effects of a Tariff: A Simple Dynamic Story
    
  • Noteworthy Price Effects of a Tariff
    
  • Effects of a Tariff: Large Country
    
  • The Optimal Tariff
• For folks who want to fully understand optimal tariffs: Optimal Tariffs and Market Power: The Evidence -- Don't just parrot something from this document because if you say certain things from that document, you'll signal to someone that you know the topic really, really well, and you will look stupid when they respond to you at that level of comprehension and your reply isn't again at that level.

Note:

1. Large has nothing to do with actual size. If Iceland happens to be the largest buyer of widgets, Iceland is a large country as goes widgets.
2. "Welfare" to an economist does not mean public assistance programs. It's means what laymen would call the "overall wellbeing of an economy."

 

[WheelieAddict]

We are going to have to borrow some loonies to pay for Trump's constant vacations and flying to NYC. Dude makes Obamas' expenditures look like nothing.

 

[Old Rocks]

Our trade deficit with Canada is small. A large portion of Canada's exports to the US are raw materials such as oil, minerals, lumber. You can't move a Canadian lumberjack job to the US.

You can't move a Canadian lumberjack job to the US.

Why not? We moved US lumberjack jobs for the stupid spotted owl.

Bullshit. We move US lumberjack jobs because we over logged in the 80's. Also, many of the jobs in the woods and mills became mechanized, with a machine doing the work of 10 to 30 men.

With at least 10,000 jobs in the Pacific Northwest expected to be lost so as to save some of nation's oldest trees and the owls that live among them, loggers and sawmill workers here are demanding economic compensation from the Federal Government.


10,000 Are Expected to Lose Jobs to Spotted Owl

Old growth is now only 5% of the forest. Enough to provide a few jobs for a few years, and then what? We clear cut like fools, and now are paying for it. Paying for it with the loss of salmon spawning grounds, and loss of soil from the runoff on bare ground.

When you clear cut the forest will eventually come back, it just takes a long time.

If you mandate replanting then the forest comes back faster.

If you don't cut at all then the forest will just burn to the ground eventually -- for nothing -- and also a hazard to itself and neighboring communities.

And if you selective log, you get healthier forests that replant themselves, forests with multiple species in them. As for the forests burning, when you get a very long dry spell, then dry lightning with high wind, they are going to burn, no matter how well managed. As the climate warms, we will and are seeing more of that.

 

[Windship]

The future is open trade, not restrictive trade. All high tariffs accomplish is retaliation and a sinking global economy.

Sure, right...like they ruined our country between the years of 1935-1970?...THAT kind of sinking economy? History proves you 100% incorrect sir. You just want cheap labor and no EPA. Do you see the writings below? "Protectionist"? Read it.

 

[busybee01]

Trump and his team can't keep his eye off of this issue, if he does, the Democrats will sweep in and take away those who left their party and voted GOP, it's a guarantee. It is by far the #1 reason why he won the election from what I can glean. People want unfair trade deals to be eliminated and jobs to return. After he deals with Mexico and Canada, he needs to work on he China unfair file. This will be heavy lifting, but will be in the best interest of American workers and the future.

This means applying the border tariff to Canada, ripping up NAFTA (which is violated by Canada all the time anyways, as you will read from me). This will ensure American businesses avoid Canada, and, in many cases, move jobs back to America from Canada since any perceived benefit will be gone. Coupled with the tax cuts, this is a powerful antidote.

As someone who considers himself a fiscal conservative and who would never have prescribed to increased tariffs, this has to be done. Globalization requires tweaking, I've stated it before, it has become far too unequal for National economies of liberty loving nations and a massive and unequal drain of jobs from these same countries. Meaning less revenue, a withering middle class and a future that s bleak.

Furthermore, even the globalists need to understand something very important, if America fails, the world leader will be China. Not only will human rights along the world suffer from such a realisation, by osmosis, the watering down of American individualism and rights will be eroded too.

All the technical reviews that I have seen on how the border tax is supposed to work indicate that the corporate income tax will be the mechanism rather than the tariff.

Export revenue shall become tax exempt.

And cost of goods sold from imports will be non-deductible.

Hence exporters get a huge tax break while importers get a huge tax hike.

To help finance the tax cut side of it, corporate interest expense will become nondeductible as well.

This still will raise prices on lower middle class and poor Americans. It works the same way as a tariff. It also discriminates against companies which is not the goal of tax reform. Some companies will pay little or nothing in taxes while some will pay the maximum. Worth noting that Trump has said that it is too complicated which suggests he favors a straight tariff.

 

[busybee01]

This is the stupidest idea that I have ever heard of. Ronald Reagan gave us one of the longest peacetime expansion of the economy in history. Yet some people want to emulate Herbert Hoover who gave us a depression. The fact is that the output of goods manufactured in this country has never been higher even with fewer people making them. It is something called productivity.

The fact is that some goods were made overseas even before NAFTA. A tariff would be harmful to lower middle class and poor people. While there is poverty in this country, it is hardly as bad as it is in other countries. One of the reasons is cheap goods. Goods that are made in the US are available. Even Glenn Beck has a line of American made clothing. The strategy of American auto companies is simple. Autos that have high profit margins are generally made in the US. Cars with low profit margins are assembled in countries like Mexico. If these cars were made in the US, prices would be higher and lower income people would be priced out of the market. That means that more jobs would not be created because lower sales would cause the auto company to drop the car. Same thing with clothing. Higher prices and fewer sales would hurt American retailers like Walmart which would lead to job losses.

Tariffs are nothing but the government trying to manipulate the economy. Amazing how some people claim to be conservatives and want the government to manage the economy.

Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan were both morons when it came to international macro-economics.

Between the two of them they gave away the store.

Reagan was a great man and a class act. He also gave us the longest peacetime expansion. Trump is a thug and trash.

 

[Windship]

stupid ass RW's constantly bitch about raising taxes, and how a tax increase would only be passed on to consumers, yet when Trump takes office those same tax increases are magically good for the economy and create jobs.


The tax rate in 1935 for the wealthy, was 93% over 25,000usd per year. Now, with trumps 35% down to 15 percent means the wealthy will pay no taxes. From 93% to zero %. If tax cuts create jobs...where ARE the jobs?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Trump and his team can't keep his eye off of this issue, if he does, the Democrats will sweep in and take away those who left their party and voted GOP, it's a guarantee. It is by far the #1 reason why he won the election from what I can glean. People want unfair trade deals to be eliminated and jobs to return. After he deals with Mexico and Canada, he needs to work on he China unfair file. This will be heavy lifting, but will be in the best interest of American workers and the future.

This means applying the border tariff to Canada, ripping up NAFTA (which is violated by Canada all the time anyways, as you will read from me). This will ensure American businesses avoid Canada, and, in many cases, move jobs back to America from Canada since any perceived benefit will be gone. Coupled with the tax cuts, this is a powerful antidote.

As someone who considers himself a fiscal conservative and who would never have prescribed to increased tariffs, this has to be done. Globalization requires tweaking, I've stated it before, it has become far too unequal for National economies of liberty loving nations and a massive and unequal drain of jobs from these same countries. Meaning less revenue, a withering middle class and a future that s bleak.

Furthermore, even the globalists need to understand something very important, if America fails, the world leader will be China. Not only will human rights along the world suffer from such a realisation, by osmosis, the watering down of American individualism and rights will be eroded too.

Why do you think the US and the world is richer than it's ever been with lower tariffs? Yes, the US might see some short term gains, but over the long term, tariffs will hurt the US badly.

GDP is not a good indicator of the health of a society. While the GDP has increased, the top 1% has acquired 40% of the wealth and the bottom 80% only 7% of the wealth in the US. Obviously we are doing something wrong and Americans are already hurting badly. This disparity in wealth further complicates our political processes as the wealthiest among us have enough income to own the political process. Doing nothing, which is what I am hearing from the so called liberals here, is socially irresponsible.

Well I didn't mention GDP and wasn't really talking about GDP, just that Americans are generally much richer now than at any time in history.

I'm not sure what you're getting at by saying it is socially irresponsible to do nothing. I'm not a Socialist, I believe that humans can't live in a Utopia, the US being the largest economy on Earth and yet having so many problems is evidence that things don't always work as we'd like them to.

 

[MordechaiGoodbud]

Trump and his team can't keep his eye off of this issue, if he does, the Democrats will sweep in and take away those who left their party and voted GOP, it's a guarantee. It is by far the #1 reason why he won the election from what I can glean. People want unfair trade deals to be eliminated and jobs to return. After he deals with Mexico and Canada, he needs to work on he China unfair file. This will be heavy lifting, but will be in the best interest of American workers and the future.

This means applying the border tariff to Canada, ripping up NAFTA (which is violated by Canada all the time anyways, as you will read from me). This will ensure American businesses avoid Canada, and, in many cases, move jobs back to America from Canada since any perceived benefit will be gone. Coupled with the tax cuts, this is a powerful antidote.

As someone who considers himself a fiscal conservative and who would never have prescribed to increased tariffs, this has to be done. Globalization requires tweaking, I've stated it before, it has become far too unequal for National economies of liberty loving nations and a massive and unequal drain of jobs from these same countries. Meaning less revenue, a withering middle class and a future that s bleak.

Furthermore, even the globalists need to understand something very important, if America fails, the world leader will be China. Not only will human rights along the world suffer from such a realisation, by osmosis, the watering down of American individualism and rights will be eroded too.

Canada doesn't take jobs from the U.S.

You live in an alternate reality.

 

[Windship]

Between the two of them they gave away the store.[/QUOTE]

Reagan was a great man and a class act. He also gave us the longest peacetime expansion. Trump is a thug and trash.[/QUOTE]

Reagan kicked off the largest transfer of wealth in American history. Its proved to be a failed policy.

 

[Windship]

stupid ass RW's constantly bitch about raising taxes, and how a tax increase would only be passed on to consumers, yet when Trump takes office those same tax increases are magically good for the economy and create jobs.


The tax rate in 1935 for the wealthy, was 93% over 25,000usd per year. Now, with trumps 35% down to 15 percent means the wealthy will pay no taxes. From 93% to zero %. If tax cuts create jobs...where ARE the jobs?

...and where is that tax elimination for people single with an income of 25,000usd per yr or less...51,000 for married couples, huh? A trump campaign promiss.

 

[Windship]

reagan was a fuckin' actor and a traitor to The America People.

 

[Windship]

Yes. trump will rip up nafta...and replace it with the tpp, the ttip and the tisa.