Selective Feminism

[Dragonlady]

Why would we defend Pallin at all? Feminists don't defend women from mysogeny. I don't know where you got the notion that we did, or that it's our responsibility to do so.

We work for women's rights. We defend women who are attacked while defending their rights.

We don't defend women from men who make passes at them. We defended Sandra Fluke because she was attacked and vilified for asking for her rights.

As for Gloria Steinem's comments on Sarah Pallin, that's not mysogeny nor are many of the other comments you flagged. Criticizing a woman isn't necessarily mysogeny and criticizing politicians just comes with the job.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Why would we defend Pallin at all? Feminists don't defend women from mysogeny. I don't know where you got the notion that we did, or that it's our responsibility to do so.

We work for women's rights. We defend women who are attacked while defending their rights.

We don't defend women from men who make passes at them. We defended Sandra Fluke because she was attacked and vilified for asking for her rights.

As for Gloria Steinem's comments on Sarah Palin, that's not misogyny nor are many of the other comments you flagged. Criticizing a woman isn't necessarily misogyny and criticizing politicians just comes with the job.

That's a lie. Just as is your claim that "We defend women who are attacked while defending their rights." The criticism of Palin went way beyond her stature as a politician, so no, that's also a lie.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Pogo:

I just established the question, and the response I received was that I am a callow, temeritous youth. Way to make your point, sir. I'm four years from being 30. I think I've shed that "youth" label by now.

 

[Esmeralda]

No, I'm not a woman, nor is Pogo. But it confounds me simply because liberal women say they are for women, women's rights and such, but defend one woman over another. I am accusing them all of employing a double standard. If being a woman meant so much to all of them, I would wager they would do anything to defend their version of the species from unfair or unbased attacks. But lo and behold, they don't. One woman is more worthy of praise than another, one woman is more worthy of defense than the other. One is more deserving of ridicule than the other. This is a classic double standard which needs to be addressed.

Need I repeat myself?

OMG, the temerity of callow youth...

OMG, the vacuousness of the reply... (by the way, that response of yours is a genetic fallacy).

First, women who may be liberals or feminists are not required to defend every woman simply because she is a woman. I'm an American and I certainly don't defend everything every American does. It is a complete failure of logic to assume that a feminist must defend a woman simply because she is a woman.

Second, the phrase callow youth (per Webster's dictionary if you need evidence) is: "used to describe a young person who does not have much experience and does not know how to behave the way adults behave . That describes you to a tee as far as anything I have gleaned from your posts. You need to grow up.


If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch; otherwise, you just get in everyone's way and you are very tiresome. Which is why I found this thread to be a yawn from the very beginning.

 

[Dragonlady]

That's a lie. Just as is your claim that "We defend women who are attacked while defending their rights." The criticism of Palin went way beyond her stature as a politician, so no, that's also a lie.

That's simply your opinion as to who and what feminists are, which is both misguided and wrong headed.

Quite frankly, I'm losing patience with you and your attitudes. You're trying to tell me what I must do as a liberal feminist and you're upset that I won't play your game by your rules.

Your original premise was flawed and you persist in pretending that you had a valid point. You didn't. But you keep insisting that women must defend other women from mysogyny and that's a false premise. It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, or how many ways you say it. You don't get to tell women what feminists must do.

Your examples of mysogyny aren't even valid. You wouldn't recognize a mysognistic statement if it jumped up and slapped you in the face. You simply call every criticism of a woman which you consider to be harsh, or unwarranted, as mysogyny. It isn't. Calling a stupid woman stupid, is not mysognistic. Saying all women are stupid is mysogynistic.

Gloria Steinem's criticism of Pallin was spot on. She nailed every reason why running this woman as a candidate was a bad idea and an insult to women voters. You don't agree, that's your prerogative but don't try to tell me what to think.

Callow youth is an apt description. 26 is not nearly old enough to acquire experience or wisdom, especially given your immaturity.

 

[JoeB131]

I miss this thread when TK originally posted it.

Besides the fact that Letterman apologized to the Palin family for the joke, let's put it in perspective.

Palin's OTHER Teen daughter did get knocked up, largely because they let the son of the local meth dealer do sleepovers. So, yeah, the joke was kind of appropriate, as she's ready to lecture the rest of the country on morality and doesn't really have a handle on what is going on in her own house.

Meanwhile, Limbaugh didn't apologize until he lost half his sponsors, and he didn't even know what he was talking about. Fluke spoke about how women who have valid medical reasons for contraception, such as treating ovarian cysts, have to jump through hoops to get treatment.

Limbaugh also apparently thinks the amount of birth control you take corrolates to how much sex you are having, which makes one wonder if he understands how the lady parts work.

 

[kaz]

You mention Palin, so, are you disgusted with comments made about her by Democrats? You didn't actually say that you were.

I did say that I found Bill Maher's comments disgusting. I haven't seen or heard any Democratic Party officials and spokespeople calling her a bitch or other names, as has happened with Hillary.

I don't think that name calling is healthy to the political process, but then there is so much happening in the American political process that is unhealthy and not helpful. That's true of both sides.

For Republicans you counted pundits and columnists, but for Palin you only count "Democratic Party officials." That's why I have a hard time taking liberals seriously.

And I am not the same animal as you, I left the Republican party because they didn't reflect my values, I didn't alibi them like you do Democrats.

 

[kaz]

I don't think I've ever heard a Republican leader on national television, refer to any President or presidential candidate, past or present, as a "bastard", but I've heard more than one Republican leader refer to Hillary as a "bitch".

Remember Harry Reid Calling W a "loser?"

Reid Calls Bush a 'Loser'

Can you show the link for Republican leaders calling Hillary a "bitch?" I haven't heard that and, call me crazy, I'm not taking your word for it.

Loser and bitch are totally not the same thing; not in the same universe at all. Miles and miles apart. Seriously, you think calling someone a loser is equal to calling a woman a bitch? Unbelieveable.

All you just said is you have a stick up your ass. I'll stipulate to that. Do you have a point on the conversation?

 

[Esmeralda]

Remember Harry Reid Calling W a "loser?"

Reid Calls Bush a 'Loser'

Can you show the link for Republican leaders calling Hillary a "bitch?" I haven't heard that and, call me crazy, I'm not taking your word for it.

Loser and bitch are totally not the same thing; not in the same universe at all. Miles and miles apart. Seriously, you think calling someone a loser is equal to calling a woman a bitch? Unbelieveable.

All you just said is you have a stick up your ass. I'll stipulate to that. Do you have a point on the conversation?

One thing I know, I would never use a statement such as this: "you have a stick up your ass." You must be trailer trash through and through. As well, I did make a point. You are apparently too dense to get it.

 

[kaz]

Loser and bitch are totally not the same thing; not in the same universe at all. Miles and miles apart. Seriously, you think calling someone a loser is equal to calling a woman a bitch? Unbelieveable.

All you just said is you have a stick up your ass. I'll stipulate to that. Do you have a point on the conversation?

One thing I know, I would never use a statement such as this: "you have a stick up your ass." You must be trailer trash through and through. As well, I did make a point. You are apparently too dense to get it.

Yes, that you believe that the Democratic head of the Senate calling W a "loser" is OK while people who are not elected Republican anything calling women calling Hillary a "bitch" is unacceptable because one is higher on your thin skin meter. Actually it's because you're OK when Democrats do it and not Republicans. If this were a real issue to you, then Bill Maher calling Sarah Palin a word we can't even use on this site and then saying her granddaughter was a product of statutory rape would trivialize everything else. But Maher is a Democrat, not an issue.

And then you followed it up with that my saying you have a "stick up your ass" is unbelievable but you're apparently OK with calling me trailer trash.

LOL. I'd pull the stick out. But you are a hoot. Keep it up.

 

[Dragonlady]

For Republicans you counted pundits and columnists, but for Palin you only count "Democratic Party officials." That's why I have a hard time taking liberals seriously.

And I am not the same animal as you, I left the Republican party because they didn't reflect my values, I didn't alibi them like you do Democrats.

Oh Kaz, first you said it never happened, and now that I proved it happened, you're moving the goal posts.

None of the people I gave you was a comedian. All are people conservatives consider when informing their opinion. The last time I looked, Newt Gingerich ran for President which makes him, as a former Speaker of the House, a Republican official.

A simple, "I was mistaken. I apologize" would have been sufficient.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Oh so this is how you justify all the misogyny exhibited by the left towards Palin then, for example? If I recall, you didn't mind some of the crap Maher and Letterman said about her. It's also very interesting that you should say "we pick our battles, based on where our interests lie."

Moving on.

So you're going to pose a question, and then ignore every answer you don't like then?

Good plan. Let me know how it works out.

You haven't even established your question anyway. You've declared "misogyny", posted an irrelevant piece of op-ed from Steinem, and when I asked what it's point is, I got crickets.

And again, where do you get off purporting to sit in judgement of women? Rather an arrogant presumption to take if you don't mind my saying.

Although I suspect women are used to it by now...

Questions. Why do women in one party treat one woman with disdain but not the other? Why do they only react to criticism of one woman and rush to her defense but not the other? Why does such a selective bias exist within the mind of a liberal woman/liberal/feminist?

I already proved you were wrong with my link to the National Organization for Women, NOW's reaction to the Letterman/Palin episode.

 

[kaz]

For Republicans you counted pundits and columnists, but for Palin you only count "Democratic Party officials." That's why I have a hard time taking liberals seriously.

And I am not the same animal as you, I left the Republican party because they didn't reflect my values, I didn't alibi them like you do Democrats.

Oh Kaz, first you said it never happened, and now that I proved it happened, you're moving the goal posts.

None of the people I gave you was a comedian. All are people conservatives consider when informing their opinion. The last time I looked, Newt Gingerich ran for President which makes him, as a former Speaker of the House, a Republican official.

A simple, "I was mistaken. I apologize" would have been sufficient.

You keep changing the standard between Republicans and Democrats, you're the one moving the goal posts.

 

[Pogo]

For Republicans you counted pundits and columnists, but for Palin you only count "Democratic Party officials." That's why I have a hard time taking liberals seriously.

And I am not the same animal as you, I left the Republican party because they didn't reflect my values, I didn't alibi them like you do Democrats.

Oh Kaz, first you said it never happened, and now that I proved it happened, you're moving the goal posts.

None of the people I gave you was a comedian. All are people conservatives consider when informing their opinion. The last time I looked, Newt Gingerich ran for President which makes him, as a former Speaker of the House, a Republican official.

A simple, "I was mistaken. I apologize" would have been sufficient.

She's a notorious liar. Or he -- it lies about its own avatar. It prolly doesn't even know -- liars lose track.

Ask it to quote something it claims. That's always good for a belly laugh.

 

[Pogo]

No, I'm not a woman, nor is Pogo. But it confounds me simply because liberal women say they are for women, women's rights and such, but defend one woman over another. I am accusing them all of employing a double standard. If being a woman meant so much to all of them, I would wager they would do anything to defend their version of the species from unfair or unbased attacks. But lo and behold, they don't. One woman is more worthy of praise than another, one woman is more worthy of defense than the other. One is more deserving of ridicule than the other. This is a classic double standard which needs to be addressed.

Need I repeat myself?

OMG, the temerity of callow youth...

OMG, the vacuousness of the reply... (by the way, that response of yours is a genetic fallacy).

It's not a response; it's not addressed to you. It's an aside addressed to the other observers who see the same thing going on that I do -- a 26 year old male purporting to judge people two and three times his age of a gender he will never be. Hence: "temerity".

 

[Pogo]

Oh so this is how you justify all the misogyny exhibited by the left towards Palin then, for example? If I recall, you didn't mind some of the crap Maher and Letterman said about her. It's also very interesting that you should say "we pick our battles, based on where our interests lie."

Moving on.

So you're going to pose a question, and then ignore every answer you don't like then?

Good plan. Let me know how it works out.

You haven't even established your question anyway. You've declared "misogyny", posted an irrelevant piece of op-ed from Steinem, and when I asked what it's point is, I got crickets.

And again, where do you get off purporting to sit in judgement of women? Rather an arrogant presumption to take if you don't mind my saying.

Although I suspect women are used to it by now...

Questions. Why do women in one party treat one woman with disdain but not the other? Why do they only react to criticism of one woman and rush to her defense but not the other? Why does such a selective bias exist within the mind of a liberal woman/liberal/feminist?

Question: why does your strawman build itself out of blanket statements? Is it cold?

Shouldn't you establish the premise exists before you send it out to that cold world?

 

[Pogo]

Why would we defend Pallin at all? Feminists don't defend women from mysogeny. I don't know where you got the notion that we did, or that it's our responsibility to do so.

We work for women's rights. We defend women who are attacked while defending their rights.

We don't defend women from men who make passes at them. We defended Sandra Fluke because she was attacked and vilified for asking for her rights.

As for Gloria Steinem's comments on Sarah Palin, that's not misogyny nor are many of the other comments you flagged. Criticizing a woman isn't necessarily misogyny and criticizing politicians just comes with the job.

That's a lie. Just as is your claim that "We defend women who are attacked while defending their rights." The criticism of Palin went way beyond her stature as a politician, so no, that's also a lie.

I asked you that question too -- what was the point -- and got crickets. Nothing in the Steinem quote you posted was gender specific.

Is it your position that to criticize a male politician is OK but to criticize a female one can be OK or not OK depending on the letter after her name?

 

[kaz]

Questions. Why do women in one party treat one woman with disdain but not the other? Why do they only react to criticism of one woman and rush to her defense but not the other? Why does such a selective bias exist within the mind of a liberal woman/liberal/feminist?

Question: why does your strawman build itself out of blanket statements? Is it cold?

Shouldn't you establish the premise exists before you send it out to that cold world?

Please, liberal women lead the attack on non-liberal women. Non-liberal women don't single out women, they just think Democrats are stupid, they don't select liberal women in any way for extra ridicule.

Look at this discussion and all the liberal women who are incensed over criticism of liberal women, but yawn at attacks on conservative women.

 

[kaz]

I asked you that question too -- what was the point -- and got crickets.

Mirror...

Is it your position that to criticize a male politician is OK but to criticize a female one can be OK or not OK depending on the letter after her name?

No, the point is how non-conservative women are singled out for massive amounts of additional abuse just because they are women and women are not allowed to not be liberal.

 

[kaz]

it lies about its own avatar

My theme is liberty, I went from a photo of the Statue of Liberty to a hot girl in a Statue of Liberty costume. When you get to puberty, you will get it.