Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[Meriweather]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

 

[progressive hunter]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

could you show us where in the constitution it says that??

 

[DGS49]

Amendment I: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

What this means, to those with any historical perspective, is that Congress has no power to declare a national religion, such as the Church of England is in...I forget what country.

It is folly to look to other documents for the meaning of what is clear on its face. Accordingly, there is no "...wall of separation between Church and State..." That is one person's view of the matter, not a binding precedent for everyone else, forever.

For some reason, the first five words of the First Amendment are always forgotten by Leftists who consider the Amendment and what it means. It places no constraint whatsoever on state legislatures. There is nothing in the First Amendment that would prevent the State of Utah, for example, from passing a law or a Constitutional declaration that Utah shall, to the extent consistent with other laws, be governed according to the moral principles of the Church of JC of Latter Day Saints.

Catholics, a group of which I am a member, are morally obliged to use our voting power to further the moral teachings of the Church. For example, if a political candidate openly and conspicuously advocates for a "Woman's Right to Choose," then that candidate would be one to be voted against, unless other more pressing issues apply.

It is noteworthy that many Catholics and other Christians have the mistaken belief that it is the "Christian" thing to do when they vote for politicians who promise to take taxpayer money and use it to provide "goodies" for the Poor and other wretched people. In my view that is not Christian giving, it is stealing from other people and trying to take credit for it. Charity begins at home.

 

[Meriweather]

What this means, to those with any historical perspective, is that Congress has no power to declare a national religion, such as the Church of England is in...I forget what country.

It is folly to look to other documents for the meaning of what is clear on its face. Accordingly, there is no "...wall of separation between Church and State..." That is one person's view of the matter, not a binding precedent for everyone else, forever.

For some reason, the first five words of the First Amendment are always forgotten by Leftists who consider the Amendment and what it means. It places no constraint whatsoever on state legislatures. There is nothing in the First Amendment that would prevent the State of Utah, for example, from passing a law or a Constitutional declaration that Utah shall, to the extent consistent with other laws, be governed according to the moral principles of the Church of JC of Latter Day Saints.

Catholics, a group of which I am a member, are morally obliged to use our voting power to further the moral teachings of the Church. For example, if a political candidate openly and conspicuously advocates for a "Woman's Right to Choose," then that candidate would be one to be voted against, unless other more pressing issues apply.

It is noteworthy that many Catholics and other Christians have the mistaken belief that it is the "Christian" thing to do when they vote for politicians who promise to take taxpayer money and use it to provide "goodies" for the Poor and other wretched people. In my view that is not Christian giving, it is stealing from other people and trying to take credit for it. Charity begins at home.

I've understood all of the above since childhood--fifth grade (age 10) to be exact. I am addressing those who think citizens who are also people of faith should not be involved in issues such as abortion, "wokeness", gathering other church members to vote for a specific candidate due to their political positions. I've read many times from those who believe churches should be taxed by governments because they do take a position on an issue or support a particular candidate. The faithful have just as much right to be heard as any other protester based on the fact we are also citizens. In fact--according to our faith--we have a duty to be heard.

 

[Meriweather]

could you show us where in the constitution it says that??

Can you show me the branch of government where a religious body decides on law or specific ethical issues?

 

[progressive hunter]

Can you show me the branch of government where a religious body decides on law or specific ethical issues?

people decide laws,, and those people can be anything from a ditch digger to a bishop of the church,, as long as they win an election,,

its your claim so please do show where we can find what you claim in the OP??

 

[rampart]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

BUT your votes count the same as ours. no more no less.

does christ favor a monarchy, or is democracy ok with the big guy?

the apostles ( in acts) were socialist. should we emulate that example?

i am catholic, but long fallen.

i know the pope is infallible. is there any scriptural basis for that ?

 

[rightwinger]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

Very true

But the government can’t endorse your faith

 

[rampart]

Can you show me the branch of government where a religious body decides on law or specific ethical issues?

seems the supreme court has assumed that role.

 

[Meriweather]

people decide laws,, and those people can be anything from a ditch digger to a bishop of the church,, as long as they win an election,,

its your claim so please do show where we can find what you claim in the OP??

Try to understand! Is religion a branch of government?!

My point is that citizens of any faith--and groups of citizens of any faith--should be active in government without people who are against their input clamoring that churches be taxed. Perhaps you were not aware of people condemning Evangelicals as a whole for their support of President Trump in the 2016 and 2020 elections?

 

[progressive hunter]

Try to understand! Is religion a branch of government?!

My point is that citizens of any faith--and groups of citizens of any faith--should be active in government without people who are against their input clamoring that churches be taxed. Perhaps you were not aware of people condemning Evangelicals as a whole for their support of President Trump in the 2016 and 2020 elections?

still waiting to see where I can find your claim in the constitution,,

you were very specific what it said so it shouldnt be hard to back it up,,

 

[Meriweather]

BUT your votes count the same as ours. no more no less.

does christ favor a monarchy, or is democracy ok with the big guy?

the apostles ( in acts) were socialist. should we emulate that example?

i am catholic, but long fallen.

i know the pope is infallible. is there any scriptural basis for that ?

An example: Voices against abortion should not be shouted down. Religious classes (of any/all faiths) should be permitted in schools, as should prayer, even prayers led by educators. (Freedom of speech.)

You say you know the Pope is infallible? How many infallible teachings (that cannot be reversed by another pope) have there been down through the centuries? Two. Many popes have written sermons, essays, books--and guess what--none of those books are considered "infallible". Nor is the Pope considered personally infallible. "Infallible" means when it is up to the Pope to decide a matter that has been discussed, argued, and prayed over by the entire Church (and actually started with the laity) that has not been resolved by priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals) and finally (centuries later) is presented to the pope. It is up to the Pope to decide the matter. These two infallible rulings were the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary into heaven. The people couldn't decide/agree, so the Pope did. That is how the teachings of the Assumption of Mary and the Immaculate Conception started in the Church.

 

[Meriweather]

Very true

But the government can’t endorse your faith

Exactly!

 

[Meriweather]

seems the supreme court has assumed that role.

The Supreme Court is not a branch of religion or any church. It is a branch of government.

 

[Meriweather]

still waiting to see where I can find your claim in the constitution,,

you were very specific what it said so it shouldnt be hard to back it up,,

Then you will have to wait. I've tried--with no avail--to clear up your misunderstanding of what I am saying, so I suggest we both move on.

 

[Donald H]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

During the 19th. century and before, when nearly everybody was a believer, there was no reason to separate the church and state. That which was good for the state was good for the church, and vice versa.

What year was that changed in the US?

 

[progressive hunter]

Then you will have to wait. I've tried--with no avail--to clear up your misunderstanding of what I am saying, so I suggest we both move on.

you were very specific as to what the constitution says,,

either you can back it up or you cant,,

how about you retract your claim or you drop the subject,,

cause it makes no sense having a conversation based on a lie,,

people make laws not religious or private groups,,
and theres nothing in the constitution that says that person cant be a preacher or a leader in a church

 

[rightwinger]

During the 19th. century and before, when nearly everybody was a believer, there was no reason to separate the church and state. That which was good for the state was good for the church, and vice versa.

What year was that changed in the US?

Actually they had a majority rule when it came to officially sanctioned faith

 

[BreezeWood]

However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

there are no exceptions or vague distinctions - as clergy not also being laity in regards to establishment of religion and its separation from secular gov't.

 

[Foxfyre]

The Constitution prohibits the hierarchy of Churches/Religions from being involved in State/Federal government. Popes, bishops, priests, ministers are set apart from government. However, this separation does not apply to the laity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the vocation of the laity:

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will....

899 The initiative of lay Christians is necessary especially when the matter involves discovering or inventing the means for permeating social, political, and economic realities with the demands of Christian doctrine and life. This initiative is a normal element of the life of the Church….

People/citizens of faith are not only citizens of a nation, but are also citizens of the Kingdom of God. It is not only our right, but our duty to permeate the social, political, and economic realities within our governments.

Gentle disagreement. The Constitution does not in any way prohibit a priest or Pope or Deacon or minister or anybody else involved in the Church, who is a citizen of the United States and meets the residency requirements, from running for, being appointed to, or otherwise holding any public office. Many ordained ministers and at least two Catholic priests in fact have served in Congress.

The Founders wanted those in government to be people of faith and righteous morals but did not want any kind of theocracy, thus mandating no religious test for those serving at the federal level.

What the Constitution does prohibit is any organized religious group--Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Protestant etc.--from having any more authority in the federal government than any other citizens whether they are religious or not.

The few theocracies that existed at the colony/state level all dissolved themselves by the end of the 18th Century and no new theocracies were established. The closest to it was the Church of Latter Day Saints when they first settled in Utah but by the time Utah applied for statehood the theocracy was not law.