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How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style. They are certainly not the same.Quantum Windbag, what do you believe? Do you believe it is a choice or that it is not a choice? Conclusive scientific evidence or not, which do you believe is more likely?
This is just a question based on curiosity... nothing more, nothing less.
Personally, I think it is a matter of choice. Unfortunately not everyone makes a choice, most people prefer to pretend they do not have one.
I was just asking as to what choice you were referring to in respect to gays, choosing to lead a gay life style or having a sexual preference for those of the same sex.How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style. They are certainly not the same.Personally, I think it is a matter of choice. Unfortunately not everyone makes a choice, most people prefer to pretend they do not have one.
How do I define choice? More than one option and the ability to make a decision based on whatever criteria you want to use. You are the one that wants to make people into robots that are forced to do what they do, not me.
Heres the thing:
No one is 100% straight opr gay ( no matter what they say ) The data concerning prenatal hormones is interesting in that it shows us that we can be predisposed from birth to a certain orientation.
Lets say three people are born this way
Person A is predisposed 70% homosexual 30% straight
Person B is predisposed 50/50
Person C is predisposed 30% homosexual 70% straight.
Predisposition does not decide on the persons eventual sexual orientation. That comes from two other factors: Enviornment and finally choice.
Now some people will object to the choice factor but let me explain. One has to accept what they are in order to live their lives. In that sense, choice is a factor.
I think the reason theres such a strong debate on the subject is that there isnt a single cause but a combination of factors that lead to sexual orientation, both straight and homosexual.
I have actually heard of this theory before, and another one similar to it in that sexuality "fluxuates" as a life progresses.
I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
EDIT: Forgot this: Again, I am sorry to repeat myself, but it is not about whether we accept what we are and make a choice (as you put it), but what we are dealt with in terms of the orientation itself. I did not choose to be attracted to guys. I just am. I choose to date guys because my attraction to women is so minute and rare that it's almost nonexistent.
I was just asking as to what choice you were referring to in respect to gays, choosing to lead a gay life style or having a sexual preference for those of the same sex.How do you define choice? having a sexual preference for those of the same sex or leading a leading a gay life style. They are certainly not the same.
How do I define choice? More than one option and the ability to make a decision based on whatever criteria you want to use. You are the one that wants to make people into robots that are forced to do what they do, not me.
If you want evidence of healthy, wild animals rejecting heterosexuality in favor of homosexuality, then look up the story on the penguins, Roy and Silo. Oh, and organisms of different species do not crossdress because animals do not usually wear clothes.
Roy and Silo were in captivity, hardly natural conditions. Roy and Silo never performed sex acts! Boy and girl penguins look the same! Silo (a male) eventually hooked up with a female name Scrappy!
Is it representative of homosexual human male partners to never perform sex acts? Are homosexual men too stupid to tell the difference between a male and a female?
Roy and Silo do not reflect human homosexuals. But, you offer this example just as bullshit.
Please try not to comment on things that require logic, reason or any kind of thinking at all. Its not your strong suit.
When I was born, the doctor told my mother that I was a boy. When I got older my mother told me I was a boy. Guess it must be true and I'd say I'm pretty well orientated to the fact that I'm a boy.
I will point out that you were the person in this thread who said he doesn't need science. That makes anything you have to say about my position useless.
As I said, if sexual orientation is a choice then let's have a few heterosexuals be aroused by those of the same gender. Does it really require science to prove this?
EDIT: Actually, I'm sure we would have to run tests enable to determined if they are aroused or not... So I suppose science would play a part in it.
I know a few heterosexuals that are aroused by the same gender. A few of them even admit it.
Okay, then here are two questions:
1.) Did they choose to be aroused by those of the same gender? If so, how can you be sure?
2.) How can they be heterosexual if they are attracted to those of the same gender?
Since you said that there is no scientific evidence to support that sexual orientation is not a choice (as well as there being no evidence to support that it is a choice), then let's look at another factor: psychology (which is a type of science as well).
Why would people choose to be gay and suffer the consequences that go with it?
- I never said it was a choice, I keep pointing out that you cannot prove it is not.
- How can you be gay if you are attracted to some women?
I can safely say that there have only been a couple of instances in my life to where I was (a little) aroused at the female form. So, speaking on a personal level, I can see how this theory could be believable/valid, but... what do you have to say about those who claim to have never been attracted to women before? That they're lying or...
I think the person with the problem here is you, sexuality is obviously more complicated than you are trying to portray it.
As for your psychological question, consider this.
Sexual Masochism | Psychology Today
Okay, I am done arguing about the rest of this debate. You are (currently) correct about there not being any valid and conclusive scientific evidence supporting the causes for sexual orientation. I was, as you previously stating, twisting science to support my personal beliefs. However, I want to know how masochism would be the reason for people choosing to be gay. Surely those who identify themselves as homosexual are not all masochists?
Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological.
Case 1:
Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice.
Case 2:
One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay?
Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.
Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.right 3 vids, but you claim that it is every person who says they are gay. I could easily find 10 videos of gay people who say that it is biological for every 3 you find.
So if being homo is biological and they can't help it.
Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.
The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.
In 2000, there were no states that allowed same sex marriage. Now there are 8. Polls were reliable in 2000 when voter were against same sex marriage and not in 2012 when a majority of voter approve of allowing same sex marriage?Demonic possession? What in the fuck are you talking about?
People are certainly open about being bigots under the guise that homosexuality is a choice.
If homosexuality is a biological construct, then discriminating against it is akin to discrimination based on race and you share a mindset with Bull Connor.
Own it.
Actually, there was poll (taken in 2000) that asked whether or not one's opinion would change if sexual orientation was proven not to be a choice. 75% said "no."
Now, polls are not always very reliable (especially when there is only one... which was taken 12 years ago), but keep in mind that racism and sexism have existed and still exists despite the fact both gender and skin color are determined by genetics.
People will continue to promote hate whether science backs them or not. However, as of right now, some of them are (yes) hiding behind the lack of conclusive proof that supports sexual orientation is determined before birth. I can assure you, though, that their position wouldn't change even if there was conclusive proof.
People who have sex with animals say that it's not a "choice" either.The same argument was used against the homos just a few years ago.
Now being a homo is considered normal.
Pedophiles say that it's not a "choice" sames as the homos.
Thus, there is No difference between homosexuality and pedophelia.
Interesting how you cut out the second half of my post.....
Just saying
Sorry I'm late to this party but here's my $0.02:
In the question of Nature vs Nurture, I believe it is a little of both. I believe that there are people who are genetically susceptable to being homosexual, and it takes a stressor in the environment to shift them in that direction. I base my theory on the many friends I have who are gay.
Chip, who is 32 years old and gay has a total shit bag for a mother. his older sister could do no wrong and Chip can do no right. Chip is a very talented artist, designer, and is highly sought after in his job. He and I have collaborated on some really fine projects. he's a generally nice guy. His mom is a beast from hell.
Jamie who I think is about 30, is a lesbian friend who I met via my daughter. She's funny, vibrant and being in her company is always good for one's soul. Her brother, whom she grew up admiring was tragically killed while she watched. I don't know the details, because she can't speak of it still after all these years.
Jon, a gay friend who only recently came out, has always been a troubled soul. i have known him for many years. We were among a group of good friends who drank a whole lot of alchohol in our days. he's adopted and his rich parents are psycho. I never liked them.
Phil, another Gay friend who recently came out, though it was no surprise to anyone, has a past he won't talk about at all. Since he came out he's been likethe phoenix rising from the ashes. The change in him is astounding. He is now on to greater things.
I vote both nature and nurture.
Based on personal observation I think for some it is a choice and for others it's biological.
Case 1:
Someone I know was brought up by a gay couple. He dated girls for a while, but decided he dug boys. From what I could tell this was his choice. I think he liked girls, but just decided he wanted to give guys a try. Now I haven't talked to him in several years so I have no idea whether or not he still is into guys or not. But that, to me, is a choice.
Case 2:
One of my friends was brought up in a Catholic household. He went to church every Sunday and his family was very religious. I was one of the first people he came out to. He told me he was very worried about telling his family because they saw it as a sin. He didn't tell them for a long time out of that fear. Now, if he was really that afraid it being a sin, as his family and church so firmly believed, how could anyone make that choice to be gay?
Now these are just my observations, and not my only two gay friends. But the ones I think most demonstrate the "issue" at hand.
Rebellion against the status quo is very common in teens and young adults. If he was uncomfortable with his parents, or felt he was being "bullied" by his family to accept religious beliefs he did not support, "coming out" would have been a great way to "punish" his family. Again, a choice, albeit an subconscious one.
Both homos and child molesters claim that it's Not a "choice" that they were born that way.
So if being homo is biological and they can't help it.
Then being a pedophile is also biological; because after all, they say it's not a choice.
The difference there is that pedophiles pray on innocent children, molest and torture them when they have no choice in the matter. And many do say that pedophilia is a disease and they should be treated.
But when it comes to being gay, when it is not a choice, it is up to the partners to decide whether or not to engage in sexual activity. That's the difference.
The difference is that you have arbitrarily decided that one is acceptable and one isn't, so you choose to pretend that your morality is better than theirs.
I don't really care what people have to say about my sexuality. I am what I am. I'm not happy or sad about it... it's just there. Also, we're not arguing about marriage rights, we're talking about what causes sexual orientation....I have chosen to remain celibate because I am just not really that interested in sex at all. Does that make me a freak...I'm sure some, if not many would say "Yes". That doesn't bother me at all. I have been told I just have a low libido, or some such. I rather consider that I have many other, varied interests besides sex. Does your "predisposition" necessarily make you a freak? Only if you let others define you as such. But, as I mentioned, a lot of people find it patently offensive that homosexuals/lesbians/etc appear to be very actively trying to force others to accept who or what they define themselves as. I would suggest that as long as everyone has the same legal opportunities, that some terms be left to populations who have long had a franchise on the idea, i.e. marriage. Do you really need to paste the same name on a sentiment that should be held above such constricted definitions?
I don't think anyone is refuting that.The choice to engage in sexual activity, or not, is not limited to homosexuals. Heterosexuals also have that choice.
Again, this thread exists to discuss the causes for sexual oriention...Unfortunately, it has become fashionable for sex of any stripe to be sanctioned because of some claimed genetic predisposition to such. Morality does not enter into the equation. Hollywood plays a HUGE role in the normalization of what was once considered perverse. Government has played along in order to pander to various constituencies.
Yes, this is a thread regarding the science behind sexual orientation. If you are going to make a statement in regards to this topic, then it would be best to back it up with sources.If I am going to leave a post please post a link? Wow. 2 +2 =4. Do I need a link for that too? It's obvious, homosexuality is um, well. Dysfunctional. Your momma and poppa weren't gay. And they made silly old you. The purpose of sex isn't to hard to figure out without links. Gays aren't quite following THAT simple little paradigm. I don't respect THEM because they are childish sexually maladjusted narcissist perverts. A pervert by any other name...So? the human race can do just fine without homosexuals, we have survived millions of years without any children conceived through gay sex. Need a link to that, too? Ask your PARENTS.
