Should America put a ban on gun free zone because they're being used by mass shooters?

[2aguy]

Well...what do you propose?

Background checks failed...again. Shooter passed at least two background checks, even though he was likely a prohibited person.

The hero who disarmed and chased off this shooter ALSO used an AR-15.

So...what exactly do you suggest?

The two guys who chased the guy did not stop him from shooting anyone, did not disarm him and did not "chase him off".

They stopped him from killing more people, in particular any people he may have met as he fled the scene, since the police weren't there, and likely his wife and her parents.....

 

[2aguy]

Here are the links...

Sharpshooting plumber with AR-15 fired shot that took down Texas church gunman ---NY Post

Air Force Error Allowed Texas Gunman to Pass Background Checks, Buy Weapon. ---The New York Times

Sutherland Springs church shooter passed background checks to buy guns in S.A., store says. ---The Houston Chronicle

And he was an NRA instructor.........the liberal tears are flowing....

 

[2aguy]

There just is no situation terrible enough for gun advocates to assume any responsible gun control ideas. In fact, the gun advocates say that as no law designed in the mind of man can totally prevent gun deaths, nothing at all should be done. Of course, if we applied that argument to drunk drivers, we would equip all vehicles with shot glasses and beer taps.

So, in the spirit of the ossified thinking of the gun advocates I suggest an All-American Arms Race! Require everyone, and I mean everyone regardless of mental or physical competence to be armed 24 hours a day. Guns for everyone. If you prefer to carry a rocket propelled grenade launcher, go for it! If you want a flamethrower, why not? Tired of your Ford 150? How about an Abrams A-1 tank? The Right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.

And since we have factored in the havoc of battlefield weapons on our schools, churches and concerts as the cost of doing business in our gun loving society, any and all weapons should be on our streets.

We have sown the seeds of gun violence. We have watered the fields with the blood of innocents. We have cultivated our garden with political intimidation by lobbyists. Now we must reap the whirlwind.

Your first line - I've been thinking about this. I haven't been here for a while but I knew exactly what I would find here after these shootings and its horrifying.

After every shooting, the same posters immediately post the same lame excuses and the very same catch phrases. If you go to RWNJ sites or 2nd Amendment sites, same thing.

They've been told what to say and they're unable to think beyond that.

Add to that the amount of money the NRA gives to Repub congress and there's just no way this will change.

If Sandy Hook wasn't bad enough, nothing will ever be bad enough.

They will say they're "pro-life" but they're anything but. No number of dead children is too many.

It's a circular argument. First they say that 'this is not the time to argue a political position' as if their compassionate n for the victims is sacrosanct. Then they'll say that no law would have prevented this tragedy'. Their argument is that the perfect prevents the good. No law at all can eliminate crime. But as no law can eliminate crime, should we stop writing laws?

And you're right. If Sandy Hook could not move them to take responsibility no gun tragedy will. They have factored in the cost in lives to justify their love of weaponry.

I have asked again and again what is the virtue of a high capacity magazine fitted to a semi-automatic (or modified semi-automatic) firing system. Why I should it good? Why is it necessary?

No one among the gun lovers can craft a response other than to say you need it for self defense.

This supposes that one is defending against a horde of criminals at a mfuneral meets notice.

If the argument about violent video games and movies has any legs, it can be used in the hordes of criminals response. These folks are living in a Rambo inspired world.

Yes...we have factored in the lives saved when people are allowed to use guns to stop killers like this...Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent attackers.......saving lives when they do....

A standard magazine...which you lie about and call a high capacity magazine to fool the uninformed into supporting banning them........is necessary to fight violent monsters.......

The democrat bernie sanders supporter required 40 rounds by two police officers to take him down.....any civilian caught in the same fight needs as much ammo as they want to carry..........

The Costs and Consequences of Gun Control



In 2012, Arizona repealed its limitations on magazine capacity for hunters precisely because of the possible need for self-defense against unexpected encounters with cartel gangs in the southern part of the state.36 In that region, it is well known that drug traffickers and human traffickers use the same wild and lonely lands that hunters do.



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For the firearms that are most often chosen for self-defense, the claim that any magazine holding more than 10 (or 7) rounds is “high capacity” or “large” is incorrect. The term “high-capacity magazine” might have a legitimate meaning when it refers to a magazine that extends far beyond that intended for the gun’s optimal operation. For example, although a semiautomatic handgun can accept a 40-round magazine, such a magazine typically extends far beneath the gun grip, and it is therefore impractical to use with a concealed-carry permit. For most handguns, a 40-round magazine could be called “high-capacity.”

------

The persons who have the most need for actual high-capacity magazines are those who would have great difficulty changing a magazine — such as elderly persons or persons with disabilities. For an able-bodied person, changing a magazine only takes a few seconds. Typically a gun’s magazine-release button is near the trigger. To change a magazine, the person holding the gun presses the magazine-release button with a thumb or finger. The magazine instantly drops to the floor. While one hand was pushing the magazine-release button, the other hand can grab a fresh magazine (which might be carried in a special holster on a belt) and bring it toward the gun. The moment the old magazine drops out, a fresh one is inserted.37


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Although one can quickly change magazines, persons being attacked by criminals will typically prefer not to spend even a few seconds for a magazine change. The stress of being attacked usually impedes fine motor skills, making it much more difficult to insert the magazine.38 That is why many semiautomatic handguns come factory-standard with a magazine of 11 to 20 rounds. Thus, a ban on magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds means a ban on some of the most common and most useful magazines purchased for purposes of recreational target practice and self-defense.

Why might someone need a factory-standard 17-round magazine for a common 9mm handgun? As noted, standard-capacity magazines can be very useful for self-defense. This is especially true if a defender faces multiple attackers, an attacker is wearing heavy clothing or body armor, an attacker who is turbo-charged by methamphetamine or cocaine, or an attacker who poses an active threat from behind cover. In stressful circumstances, police as well as civilians often miss when firing a handgun even at close range, so having the extra rounds can be crucial.
It is important to consider the advantages a criminal has over his intended victims. The criminal has the element of surprise, whereas the victim is the one surprised. The criminal can decide at leisure what weaponry he will bring; whereas the victim must respond with what’s at hand at the moment of attack. A criminal can bring several guns, or lots of magazines; whereas the victim will usually have on hand, at most, a single defensive gun with only as much ammunition as is in that gun. Thus, legislation confining law-abiding victims to magazines of 10 or fewer magnifies the criminal’s advantage over his intended victim
Violent confrontations are unpredictable; for example, if a person is fighting against one or two perpetrators, he may not know if there is an additional, hidden attacker. Thus, defensive gun users need to keep a reserve of ammunition. So even though armed defenders do not usually fire more than 10 shots, reducing reserve capacity (e.g., from a standard 17-round magazine to a 10-round substitute) will reduce the number of defensive shots. Fewer shots fired at the attacker reduces the risk of injury to the attacker, and thereby raises the risk of injury to the victim.
Would a Magazine Ban Be Beneficial?
The National Institute of Justice study found that the 1994-2004 federal ban on the manufacture of large magazines had no discernible benefit because the existing supply of such magazines was so vast.40

The types of criminals most likely to get into shootouts with the police or with other criminals are precisely those who are very aware of what is available on the black market. Although gun prohibitionists often link assault weapons to gang violence associated with the illegal drug trade, they miss the irony of their argument.41 They are, in effect, claiming that the very gangs operating the black market in drugs will somehow be restricted from acquiring high-capacity magazines by legislation limiting the manufacture and sale of such magazines. The claim — at least as it pertains to career criminals — is ludicrous. If gangsters can obtain all the cocaine they want, despite a century of prohibition, they will be able to obtain 15-round magazines.

What about the typical perpetrators of random mass attacks — mentally ill young men? They, too, could acquire magazines by theft, or on the black market. Given that 36 percent of American high school seniors illegally acquire and consume marijuana, it is clear that plenty of people who are not gangsters or career criminals use the black market.42 Besides that, the truly high-capacity magazines, such as a 100-round drum, are very prone to malfunction. For example, during the 2012 mass murder at the movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, the murderer’s 100-round magazine jammed, allowing people to escape.43 Hundred-round magazines are novelty items and are not standard for self-defense by civilians or police.

Advocates of a ban on standard-capacity magazines assert that while the attacker is changing the magazine, an intended victim might be able to subdue him — yet they cannot point to a single instance where this actually happened. They cite a trilogy of events that happened in Tucson, Arizona (2011), Aurora, Colorado (2012), and Newtown, Connecticut (2013). In fact, all of those events involved gun jams, not magazine changes. At Newtown, the criminal changed magazines seven times and no one escaped, but when his rifle jammed, people did escape. Clearing a gun jam takes much longer than changing a magazine. Fixing a gun jam involves all the steps of a magazine change (remove the empty magazine and insert a new one) plus all the intermediate steps of doing whatever is necessary to fix the jam. Similarly, in the Luby’s cafeteria murders (24 dead), the perpetrator replaced magazines multiple times. In the Virginia Tech murders (32 dead), the perpetrator changed magazines 17 times.44

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When one also takes into account rifle magazines, the number of American magazines holding more than 10 rounds could be more than 100 million. That in itself is sufficient, according to the Supreme Court’s Hellerprecedent, to make the ban unconstitutional.

 

[2aguy]

There just is no situation terrible enough for gun advocates to assume any responsible gun control ideas. In fact, the gun advocates say that as no law designed in the mind of man can totally prevent gun deaths, nothing at all should be done. Of course, if we applied that argument to drunk drivers, we would equip all vehicles with shot glasses and beer taps.

So, in the spirit of the ossified thinking of the gun advocates I suggest an All-American Arms Race! Require everyone, and I mean everyone regardless of mental or physical competence to be armed 24 hours a day. Guns for everyone. If you prefer to carry a rocket propelled grenade launcher, go for it! If you want a flamethrower, why not? Tired of your Ford 150? How about an Abrams A-1 tank? The Right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.

And since we have factored in the havoc of battlefield weapons on our schools, churches and concerts as the cost of doing business in our gun loving society, any and all weapons should be on our streets.

We have sown the seeds of gun violence. We have watered the fields with the blood of innocents. We have cultivated our garden with political intimidation by lobbyists. Now we must reap the whirlwind.

Your first line - I've been thinking about this. I haven't been here for a while but I knew exactly what I would find here after these shootings and its horrifying.

After every shooting, the same posters immediately post the same lame excuses and the very same catch phrases. If you go to RWNJ sites or 2nd Amendment sites, same thing.

They've been told what to say and they're unable to think beyond that.

Add to that the amount of money the NRA gives to Repub congress and there's just no way this will change.

If Sandy Hook wasn't bad enough, nothing will ever be bad enough.

They will say they're "pro-life" but they're anything but. No number of dead children is too many.

It's a circular argument. First they say that 'this is not the time to argue a political position' as if their compassionate n for the victims is sacrosanct. Then they'll say that no law would have prevented this tragedy'. Their argument is that the perfect prevents the good. No law at all can eliminate crime. But as no law can eliminate crime, should we stop writing laws?

And you're right. If Sandy Hook could not move them to take responsibility no gun tragedy will. They have factored in the cost in lives to justify their love of weaponry.

I have asked again and again what is the virtue of a high capacity magazine fitted to a semi-automatic (or modified semi-automatic) firing system. Why I should it good? Why is it necessary?

No one among the gun lovers can craft a response other than to say you need it for self defense.

This supposes that one is defending against a horde of criminals at a mfuneral meets notice.

If the argument about violent video games and movies has any legs, it can be used in the hordes of criminals response. These folks are living in a Rambo inspired world.

The only reason is "self defense?" And you think that isn't the only and most important reason for law abiding Americans, who do not use their guns to commit crimes or murder, to have magazines that might save their lives or the lives of their families...

You are really stupid........

 

[2aguy]

Nothing of the kind has been proven because there is literally no "gun free zones" in the US.

Gun nutters will tell you that passing laws won't stop shooters. That argument is nonsense. We pass laws against against a lot of actions BECAUSE we know people will ignore those laws.

Same is true with this.

If one cannot be successfully legislated, neither can the other. If one could be, so could the other.

Yes...there are.....public schools...gun free, churches...gun free.......except for killers....there are no gun free zones for them....only for law abiding gun owners.....

you people are insane....

 

[2aguy]

Well...what do you propose?

Background checks failed...again. Shooter passed at least two background checks, even though he was likely a prohibited person.

The hero who disarmed and chased off this shooter ALSO used an AR-15.

So...what exactly do you suggest?

He bought 4 guns in 4 years as a prohibited person........so he could have bought any gun, even in a private sale....

 

[2aguy]

There just is no situation terrible enough for gun advocates to assume any responsible gun control ideas. In fact, the gun advocates say that as no law designed in the mind of man can totally prevent gun deaths, nothing at all should be done. Of course, if we applied that argument to drunk drivers, we would equip all vehicles with shot glasses and beer taps.

So, in the spirit of the ossified thinking of the gun advocates I suggest an All-American Arms Race! Require everyone, and I mean everyone regardless of mental or physical competence to be armed 24 hours a day. Guns for everyone. If you prefer to carry a rocket propelled grenade launcher, go for it! If you want a flamethrower, why not? Tired of your Ford 150? How about an Abrams A-1 tank? The Right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed.

And since we have factored in the havoc of battlefield weapons on our schools, churches and concerts as the cost of doing business in our gun loving society, any and all weapons should be on our streets.

We have sown the seeds of gun violence. We have watered the fields with the blood of innocents. We have cultivated our garden with political intimidation by lobbyists. Now we must reap the whirlwind.

No...we know exactly what laws work...the ones that say if you use a gun for a crime, you go to jail for 30 years...morons like you fight those laws.

Laws that state if you are a violent felon caught with a gun...you go to jail for 30 years...morons like you fight those laws....

Those two laws would stop most of our gun crime...you would see criminals using knives and bats to commit their crimes.......but you morons fight those laws and keep putting those criminals back on the streets...

And the true magic of those laws.....you don't need more paperwork, or any new gun laws...we can already use them right now.......

And the last one.....end gun free zones....they allow murderers to murder innocent, unarmed people...

There.....those actually work.....the ones you make up...don't work, and won't work for criminals or mass shooters....

 

[MyParentsAreProud]

Either you're getting drinker as the evening wears on or your parents neglected to teach you the ways of civilization. Stupid ass or dumb ass motherfucker betrays a low degree of breeding. I pity you.

Yeah, I'm getting pretty drink. Getting drink helps to deal with all of these shootings in gun free zones. Makes me wonder, what the hell are these people drunking!? I think I'm going to go make myself another drunk so that I can get good and drink.

 

[2aguy]

Well...what do you propose?

Background checks failed...again. Shooter passed at least two background checks, even though he was likely a prohibited person.

The hero who disarmed and chased off this shooter ALSO used an AR-15.

So...what exactly do you suggest?

A complete ban on the sale, manufacture, importation, distribution and possession of all guns equipped with a semi-automatic firing system. A buy back program offering 150% of market value for all privately held guns during the first year, 100% of market value during the second year and amnesty for the return of named guns during the third year. In year four any named guns will be confiscated without payment. In year five all named guns will result in a mandatory five year federal prison sentence and a $250,000 fine.

Five years to turn the weapons into manhole covers. Swords to ploughshares, guns to cover the sewers which spawned them.

Oh.....so you also want all semi auto pistols.....see, there is the Bait and Switch we always see from you morons....

Your laws turn the owners of 16 million rifles, which have never been used to commit a crime or a mass shooing, into criminals...while doing nothing to stop criminals or mass shooters...

The Virginia Tech shooter murdeed 32 people and injured 17......


Hey...they have all of that in France.....a complete ban on both semi auto and fully automatic military weapons...and terrorists, on government terrorist watch lists got fully automatic military rifles and murdered 142 people...

There are 16 million semi auto rifles in this country.....1 was used on Sunday.....

16,000,000 to 1.......can you see how stupid your idea is?

Oh...you want them banned because they killed 26 people......well knives, clubs and bare hands kill more....every single year....

Expanded Homicide Data Table 4

Rifles....374

knives....1,604

blunt objects....472

bare hands....656

 

[2aguy]

Bolt action rifles, revolvers and pump actin shotguns would be exempt.

The ban applies to battlefield weapons, not sporting weapons.

Well...since none of those are semi-automatic, I should hope they would be exempt.

Every pistol that takes a magazine is a semi-automatic.

View attachment 159025 The M1911...The first handgun I ever shot...in the Army.

IT was a battlefield weapon...and at the very least, a heavy influence on nearly every pistol produced in the last 100 years.

View attachment 159028

The M1903 Springfield...The predecessor of almost all bolt action hunting rifles of the last 100 years...a battlefield rifle.

They are all desendents of some type of battlefield weapons...even the revolvers come from the 1860 Colt Army and 1858 Remington Navy, and the Dragoons and Lemats...all battlefield weapons.

Plus...an AR-15 was used to disarm and drive off the shooter, a shot that at least contributed to his taking of his own life.

He knows that.....that is the Gun Grabber Bait and Switch....they say semi auto weapons, knowing the uninformed people will think..."rifle".......and not realize they are voting to support a ban on pistols too.......

And then, if nosmo gets those rifles and pistols....after the next mass shooting with revolvers, pump action shotguns or lever action rifles.....he will come for those as well....

They want all of them......

 

[Nosmo King]

Either you're getting drinker as the evening wears on or your parents neglected to teach you the ways of civilization. Stupid ass or dumb ass motherfucker betrays a low degree of breeding. I pity you.

Yeah, I'm getting pretty drink. Getting drink helps to deal with all of these shootings in gun free zones. Makes me wonder, what the hell are these people drunking!? I think I'm going to go make myself another drunk so that I can get good and drink.

Why deal with the mass shootings at all? Nothing ever comes of them but more mass shootings.

Grab a drink and catch all the typographical mistakes you may. But don't concern yourself with mass shootings. It's the cost of doing business in the NRA America of today.

We have sown the seeds of gun violence. We have cultivated the fields with political intimidation from the all powerful lobbyists. We have watered the crop with the blood of innocent victims. Now we must reap the whirlwind.

 

[2aguy]

Well...what do you propose?

Background checks failed...again. Shooter passed at least two background checks, even though he was likely a prohibited person.

The hero who disarmed and chased off this shooter ALSO used an AR-15.

So...what exactly do you suggest?

A complete ban on the sale, manufacture, importation, distribution and possession of all guns equipped with a semi-automatic firing system. A buy back program offering 150% of market value for all privately held guns during the first year, 100% of market value during the second year and amnesty for the return of named guns during the third year. In year four any named guns will be confiscated without payment. In year five all named guns will result in a mandatory five year federal prison sentence and a $250,000 fine.

Five years to turn the weapons into manhole covers. Swords to ploughshares, guns to cover the sewers which spawned them.

Never going to happen. Over 85% of the handguns owned, sold, and purchased are semi-automatic. Skeet shotguns are semi-automatic. Disabled hunters need semi-automatic.

Next.

Bolt action rifles, revolvers and pump actin shotguns would be exempt.

The ban applies to battlefield weapons, not sporting weapons.

Mopron......bolt action rifles....are current weapons of war. Pump action shotguns...current weapons of war. Revolvers....also a weapon of war.......used to kill native Americans and used to kill close to 500,000 Americans in the Civil war....

Moron......

Even lever action rifles are weapons of war......and you want to ban all of them.

The AR-15...was never a weapon of war........it is a civilian rifle for use by civilians and police.....moron.

 

[MindWars]

These 4 yr olds seem to think so. LMDAO talk about making yourself look like an idiot.

 

[WEATHER53]

On an All in The Family classic Archie went on a tV show and said the solution to airplane highjackings was to "arm all the passengers"
We are now indeed there