Should Churches be forced to accomodate for homosexual weddings?

[Kosh]

No matter how the far left wants to spin it, "marriage" is not a "right".

 

[Seawytch]

That you do not know the difference between your use of the word "churches" and my use of the phrase "the Church" just illustrates that you're too busy self-righteously demonizing those who disagree with you to bother educating yourself about them and understanding them.

Ignorance is never a winning strategy, which is why tyrannical fucktards like you disappear onto the ashheap of history and the Church continues on.

That you decide to be a nasty twat and not actually address any of the points I made, leads me to believe I hit the nail on the head.

Even "the Church" won't be able to survive on just 3rd world money...it will need money from places like the US that thinks gays should be treated equally and they want their gay loved ones to worship alongside them.

Among Americans who left their childhood religion and are now religiously unaffiliated, about one-quarter say negative teachings about or treatment of gay and lesbian people was a somewhat important (14%) or very important (10%) factor in their decision to disaffiliate. Among Millennials who no longer identify with their childhood religion, nearly one-third say that negative teachings about, or treatment of, gay and lesbian people was either a somewhat important (17%) or very important (14%) factor in their disaffiliation from religion.​

A Decade of Change in American Attitudes about Same-Sex Marriage and LGBT Issues

Here's an opinion from a Millennial:

What millennials really want from the church is not a change in style but a change in substance.

We want an end to the culture wars. We want a truce between science and faith. We want to be known for what we stand for, not what we are against.

We want to ask questions that don’t have predetermined answers.

We want churches that emphasize an allegiance to the kingdom of God over an allegiance to a single political party or a single nation.

We want our LGBT friends to feel truly welcome in our faith communities.

We want to be challenged to live lives of holiness, not only when it comes to sex, but also when it comes to living simply, caring for the poor and oppressed, pursuing reconciliation, engaging in creation care and becoming peacemakers.

You can’t hand us a latte and then go about business as usual and expect us to stick around. We’re not leaving the church because we don’t find the cool factor there; we’re leaving the church because we don’t find Jesus there.​

This is why His Holiness, Pope Frankie has been modifying the Church's position regarding gays. The part of the world with all the cash, doesn't hate the gays so much.

So what? Why would I care what the Pope does? Why would care what other people do?

Do you think I hold the views I do because of what is popular? I promise you, I do not. Never will.

Homosexuality is a sin. Period. Last I checked, G-d doesn't care about your opinion polls.

Have you never read Psalm 2?

Why do the nations rage, and the people plot in vain?
He who sits in the heavens laughs, the Lord holds them in derision.

Go read Psalms 2. You post all your opinion polls.... He who sits in the heavens..... LAUGHS.... LAUGHS!

That's what G-d thinks about all your opinion polls... and that's what I think about them.

We don't care about your opinion polls. Homosexuality is a sin. We won't accommodate it ever. Period.

I'm not all that worried about god. If god exists and he/she is all that ya'll say he/she is, then god made me gay and cannot possibly view it as a "sin".

Sin is a man made invention as a means of controlling the masses.

 

[Seawytch]

No matter how the far left wants to spin it, "marriage" is not a "right".

You can keep repeating it to get your post count up, but the courts disagree with you.

So, in one hand I have your opinion and in the other hand we have the legal opinions of judge after judge after judge ruling in favor of marriage equality. Hmmmm....

Tough one.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"using your logic, if i marry in another country, i never married because i did not do so under US laws" unless US law recognized it

Did you go to private or home school?

thanks for proving my point.

in essence, your claim is that someone is only married IF they marry under US laws. how can you claim such when they married in another country? how can you claim they were never married?

Fantastic point!!!

There is no point, DS.

Marriage is governed by law

 

[Seawytch]

If you find an old dictionary, before people started screwing with the words....

The definition of "marriage" is:

'a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife'

Husband.... and wife. Marriage has ALWAYS been defined as male and female.

You could have multiple females. But it was still between a man, and a woman.

Even in societies that were very open to homosexuality, you could have partners as such, but they were still not "married". They were partners, and had some level of legal standing, but they were not "married".

Marriage was between a man and woman. If there is such a example of any historical society where man and man, or woman and woman, could marry, I don't know of it.

So to that end, I would say to you that everyone is legally equal under the law. Everyone has the ability to marry a member of the opposite sex, just like everyone else.

Now if society wants to allow some sort of legal partnership.... I would be ok with that. I'd feel sad for the people who agreed to it, but let the pagans be pagans, in my book. If that's what they want, knock themselves out.

Marriage was always white people and white people or black people and black people...until it wasn't. Women used to not be able to own property in the marriage...until they could.

Know what they told those interracial couples that wanted to marry? That they weren't being discriminated against because they could marry someone of the same race...just like you are telling me I'm not discriminated against because I can marry someone of the opposite gender. Same discrimination, different day.

Now, if you don't like that civil marriages are called civil marriages, the onus is on you and others that don't want gays to say "married" to change the name of ALL civil marriages to civil unions...not just for the gays.

By the way, marriage is a pagan tradition. The wedding ring? Pagan to it's roots.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No matter how the far left wants to spin it, "marriage" is not a "right".

SCOTUS disagrees with you, and DS, and Yurt.

You can have your opinions, of course, but they don't count in the Rule of Law.

 

[Gadawg73]

Nobody is forced to join or remain a member of ANY religion. But MAKING people accept Homosexuality, or any other fetish, I draw the line there. Freedom, it means a lot of things. Freedom means I don't have to accept perverts as normal and then let them corrupt my family, religion or politics.

You don't have to accept it, but the majority of your fellow citizens already have so when the invitations start to dry up or your kids find play-dates harder to get, start buying more boardgames since you will be yelling into the wind, mostly by yourself...

LOL. "The majority of my fellow citizens" have accepted "gay marriage?" That's total BS. Almost every state that has voted on the issue has voted it down. It's taken an activist Federal Judge to overturn the will of the people in almost every case. I don't personally know anyone who believes that "gay marriage" is normal or acceptable. You really do have mush for brains ... don't you!?

Integration and interracial marriage would have been voted down also.
We do not live in a mob majority rule nation even though in many states the polls clearly state that gay marriage is "accepted" by the majority.
And the majority never vote as only 50% of the citizens register to vote and less than 50% vote most of the time.
Our laws protect the rights of the individual, not the majority.
Something about The United States Constitution.
An interesting document. Federal Judges go by it and no where in the Constitution does it state anyone can deny 2 same sex folks that love and are committed to each other from a marriage license. Marriage is a CONTRACT in this country.
We are a nation OF LAWS, not men and their various and changing like the wind religious opinions.

 

[Gadawg73]

The CONSTITUTION is the law of the land here.
NOT THE BIBLE.

 

[Seawytch]

That you do not know the difference between your use of the word "churches" and my use of the phrase "the Church" just illustrates that you're too busy self-righteously demonizing those who disagree with you to bother educating yourself about them and understanding them.

Ignorance is never a winning strategy, which is why tyrannical fucktards like you disappear onto the ashheap of history and the Church continues on.

That you decide to be a nasty twat and not actually address any of the points I made, leads me to believe I hit the nail on the head.

Even "the Church" won't be able to survive on just 3rd world money...it will need money from places like the US that thinks gays should be treated equally and they want their gay loved ones to worship alongside them.

Among Americans who left their childhood religion and are now religiously unaffiliated, about one-quarter say negative teachings about or treatment of gay and lesbian people was a somewhat important (14%) or very important (10%) factor in their decision to disaffiliate. Among Millennials who no longer identify with their childhood religion, nearly one-third say that negative teachings about, or treatment of, gay and lesbian people was either a somewhat important (17%) or very important (14%) factor in their disaffiliation from religion.​

A Decade of Change in American Attitudes about Same-Sex Marriage and LGBT Issues

Here's an opinion from a Millennial:

What millennials really want from the church is not a change in style but a change in substance.

We want an end to the culture wars. We want a truce between science and faith. We want to be known for what we stand for, not what we are against.

We want to ask questions that don’t have predetermined answers.

We want churches that emphasize an allegiance to the kingdom of God over an allegiance to a single political party or a single nation.

We want our LGBT friends to feel truly welcome in our faith communities.

We want to be challenged to live lives of holiness, not only when it comes to sex, but also when it comes to living simply, caring for the poor and oppressed, pursuing reconciliation, engaging in creation care and becoming peacemakers.

You can’t hand us a latte and then go about business as usual and expect us to stick around. We’re not leaving the church because we don’t find the cool factor there; we’re leaving the church because we don’t find Jesus there.​

This is why His Holiness, Pope Frankie has been modifying the Church's position regarding gays. The part of the world with all the cash, doesn't hate the gays so much.

"How dare you not address my points as though they're valid, instead of pointing out that they're based on a fallacy, and therefore not worth noticing?! Look, Huffington Post! I win!"

Sounds like someone is a sandy twat. Grab some Vagisil. Then say something that A) demonstrates that you know what the fuck you're talking about, and B) cite a source that isn't even more laughable than your ignorant, fallacy-based "points". Huffington Post? Fucktard, please.

You're not even the ashheap of history. You're the ashheap of short-term memory.

Ah, but they aren't based on a fallacy and I provide plenty of evidence to support my contention...and from more than just the Huffington Post, I might add.

So what do you do in response? Get nastier...which I will assume means I was right again and you have no response.

It is the anti gay churches that will eventually end up in the ash bin of history.

 

[Seawytch]

In the end, Churches will be "forced" to perform gay marriages...but it won't be the government doing the "forcing", it will be the family, the friends, the loved ones of gays and lesbians that will do the "forcing" through public opinion.

Who will be last, the Mormons again? I'm putting my money on white evangelicals...

 

[Andylusion]

I'm not all that worried about god. If god exists and he/she is all that ya'll say he/she is, then god made me gay and cannot possibly view it as a "sin".

Sin is a man made invention as a means of controlling the masses.

Oh of course. No one is responsible for anything they do, because someone somewhere, caused everyone to be the way they are.... and if we can't blame a person, then we can always just blame G-d for it.

Tell me... does that mean that you can't blame those people over in the middle east who stone you to death for being gay either? After all... I'm sure G-d just 'made them that way' too, right?

I learn this years ago, from a very old man.... where I am, and the situation I am in, is due 90% to my own choices, and only 10% to circumstances.

It's been 20 years since then, and I've found that old farts words to be genuinely true. Are there things you can't control, things that are the way they are and there is nothing you can do about it? Sure. But very few.

Most of the reason you are bitter, and angry, and are trying to strike back at people around you, is duo mostly to you reaping the results of your own choices. I know because I've been there. I've done that. Never again.

But if you want to stay bitter and angry, and blame everyone and G-d for the rest of your life... that is your choice. I think it's a bad choice, but it is yours. Best to you. Later.

 

[Andylusion]

If you find an old dictionary, before people started screwing with the words....

The definition of "marriage" is:

'a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife'

Husband.... and wife. Marriage has ALWAYS been defined as male and female.

You could have multiple females. But it was still between a man, and a woman.

Even in societies that were very open to homosexuality, you could have partners as such, but they were still not "married". They were partners, and had some level of legal standing, but they were not "married".

Marriage was between a man and woman. If there is such a example of any historical society where man and man, or woman and woman, could marry, I don't know of it.

So to that end, I would say to you that everyone is legally equal under the law. Everyone has the ability to marry a member of the opposite sex, just like everyone else.

Now if society wants to allow some sort of legal partnership.... I would be ok with that. I'd feel sad for the people who agreed to it, but let the pagans be pagans, in my book. If that's what they want, knock themselves out.

Marriage was always white people and white people or black people and black people...until it wasn't. Women used to not be able to own property in the marriage...until they could.

Know what they told those interracial couples that wanted to marry? That they weren't being discriminated against because they could marry someone of the same race...just like you are telling me I'm not discriminated against because I can marry someone of the opposite gender. Same discrimination, different day.

Now, if you don't like that civil marriages are called civil marriages, the onus is on you and others that don't want gays to say "married" to change the name of ALL civil marriages to civil unions...not just for the gays.

By the way, marriage is a pagan tradition. The wedding ring? Pagan to it's roots.

Nothing of what you said changed anything of what I said. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman.

The race issue.... is a RACE issue. Not a redefining of marriage between a man and a woman.

Yes, I am well aware of where the wedding ring came from. So what? Does that change what it stand for between a man and woman today? No. Does it change what it means to me? No. Does it matter at all to anything we're talking about in this coversation? No.

Moving on.

 

[Andylusion]

The CONSTITUTION is the law of the land here.
NOT THE BIBLE.

Still don't care. You don't get it do you? I don't care what you think the law of the land is. I don't care what the constitution says, if it violates the Bible.

I'm a Christian. As a Christian, the Bible is the highest authority in my life. Higher than you... higher than the law.... higher than the Constitution, the President, or the Supreme Court.

Now as long as all those things do not contradict the Bible.... we're good.

But the moment they contradict the Bible... you lose. I'm going with the Bible. And that sir, is all there is to it.

 

[Andylusion]

In the end, Churches will be "forced" to perform gay marriages...but it won't be the government doing the "forcing", it will be the family, the friends, the loved ones of gays and lesbians that will do the "forcing" through public opinion.

Who will be last, the Mormons again? I'm putting my money on white evangelicals...

Yeah, so said the Romans. Friends rejected friends. Children turned against parents, and parents against children. Neighbor against neighbor.

Even to this very day, Christians are rejected by Jews in Israel. Christians are rejected by Muslims throughout the middle east.

I can even point to people I know right now that have been disowned by their families because they became Christian. I know of situations where because they would not accept their Homosexual relatives 'partner', they were completely abandoned by their family.

None of them have turned away from Christianity, and none of started accepting Homosexuality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some people have. The ones I know have not, but no doubt there are some.

But if you think that Bible believing Christianity is going to accept homosexuality.... you do not know your history. People like you have been saying that for 2,000 years. It's not true, and never will be.

I will promise you, right here, right now, the Generation of Bible based Christianity will stand against what G-d calls sin, until the very last second, of the last day, of this Earth. Until the end of time. I will put every single thing I own in this world, on that bet.

 

[Yurt]

No matter how the far left wants to spin it, "marriage" is not a "right".

SCOTUS disagrees with you, and DS, and Yurt.

You can have your opinions, of course, but they don't count in the Rule of Law.

i never said marriage was not a right you dumbass liar

 

[Yurt]

Marriage is a legal construct when religious unions seek the privileges and perks and reciprocities as shown in #1267. A church ceremony privately telling two folks they can shack up is not a marriage in the legal sense. The red above bolded outs Yurt.

Do some research, Yurt, I am going to find some airline tickets to Denver to see family and Rockie Dodgers baseball.

do you even know what a legal construct is? i don't think you do. because marriage was around LONG before the good USofA jake.

the law does not create marriage. the law creates certain rights with regards to marriage.

enjoy your game, perhaps it will give you time to reflect on the wisdom i've given you. have fun! and enjoy a good hot dog for me.

[MENTION=20412]JakeStarkey[/MENTION]

 

[JakeStarkey]

You can believe whatever you wan, Androw. So can you, Yurt.

But we live by Rule of Law, not Rule of Man.

 

[Yurt]

i see jakey simply can't debate and resorts to his standard:

i'm right you're wrong because i say so

schtick

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

and throws out his strawman about rule of law vs rule of man....which i never even talked about. he is a dishonest poster who can't make a point without lying.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Still don't care. You don't get it do you? I don't care what you think the law of the land is. I don't care what the constitution says, if it violates the Bible.

I'm a Christian. As a Christian, the Bible is the highest authority in my life. Higher than you... higher than the law.... higher than the Constitution, the President, or the Supreme Court.

So you're against the 13th amendment then?

 

[Andylusion]

Still don't care. You don't get it do you? I don't care what you think the law of the land is. I don't care what the constitution says, if it violates the Bible.

I'm a Christian. As a Christian, the Bible is the highest authority in my life. Higher than you... higher than the law.... higher than the Constitution, the President, or the Supreme Court.

So you're against the 13th amendment then?

Pretty dumb question.

Who led the fight against slavery? Oh right... Christians.... not just any Christians, but specifically Bible believing Christians.

And does the Bible support racism of any type? Nope.

Did I not already post, even on this very thread, Acts 10:34:

Then Peter began to speak: "Now I understand that God shows no partiality."

What does that say? There is no racism. The fact all men came from Adam, suggest there is only one race.

We Christians, who believed there was a higher authority than man's law, are the very ones who ended slavery sir.

And now you ask me if I'm against the 13th amendment?

Do you not see what a dumb question that was?