Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

[dblack]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

A 'condition of employment' is a voluntary agreement between the employer and the employee, so there's no force involved. The question is moot.

 

[Harry Dresden]

That was after the radicals (Communists/Socialists/Marxists/Fabians) were purged from the unions and before they came back to any great degree. The 70's were a time of radical resurgence in the unions. Then they got smashed by Reagan. Now the radicals are all that are left among union leadership. The American working man image among Union leaders has long been replaced by the unashamed Marxists in the left.

Then they got smashed by Reagan

outside of the Air Traffic Controllers...what other Union got "smashed" by Reagan?....and what happened to them was their doing...

The Air traffic controllers were a test case for the unions. There isn't a labor historian alive who wont tell you this. They will all tell you that Reagans victory over the ATC's "set unions back" for years to come. It spurred unionization on the decline and now very few unions by comparison are private sector. The honest labor historians will also tell you that Reagans victory over the ATC's motivated businesses from all over the world to invest in America and lead to a quicker economic recovery.

the Air Traffic Controllers got what they asked for....getting fired....they signed a paper just like i and many other Govt. workers did ...to not strike or risk getting fired.....

 

[jasonnfree]

Pay has always had less to do with unions and more to do with a high demand for skilled labor. If the population is 10000 and you only have enough jobs for 3000, chances are you aren't going to get paid much because you are easily replicable. If you are highly skilled and there are jobs for 9750 among a 10000 population you are likely to get paid more. That's simple economics, not the benefits of unionization.

What about the Teamsters Union? Truck-drivers are not highly skilled, nor are warehousemen.

My son-in-law works for UPS. He owns a fine home on Long Island and supports his family very nicely. He never graduated high-school. Where would he be without the union?

What about the International Longshoreman's Association? And the Service Employee's International (janitors, window-washers, etc.)? There are many unions that serve the interests of unskilled workers who otherwise would be working like slaves for pitiful wages.

If any union truly cared about their members they would provide educational and training sources to help them rise above the unskilled level to one where they could be productive AND make a decent living.

As it is, union bosses care for nobody but themselves. As FDR pointed, letting public employees unionize was a cause for less production and responsiveness.

Many unions provide training. IBEW Los Angeles and Operator Union 503 Los Angeles are two I'll mention of many. They're affiliated with local community colleges also but the classes are hands on and taught by journeymen usually, and safety on the job as well as technical info, is stressed. I've never met a union boss who's a thug although sometimes they might ignore the members, like any organization you have your jerks. The very wealthy and corporations have their unions also. One of the best that represent them is the US Supreme court, which declared corporations 1st class citizens. 1st class citizens can't be drafted or jailed. Instead of jail, pay a paltry fine which can be written off as business expenses which the rest of us 2nd class citizens cannot do. Corporations (1st class citizens) unlike the rest of us 2nd class citizens, can also operate in USA but claim Ireland or caiman islands or whatever, as their residence to lower their taxes, which right wing 2nd class citizens think is wonderful for some strange reason.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

Such a silly troll ^^^. Publius agenda is never hidden. But I digress.

There are closed shops where everyone is required to join the union, but those employees opposed to the union will receive the same salary, benefits and representation. They will not be required to pay union dues but they will be required to pay an amount equivalent to union dues to an approved non profit.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Pay has always had less to do with unions and more to do with a high demand for skilled labor. If the population is 10000 and you only have enough jobs for 3000, chances are you aren't going to get paid much because you are easily replicable. If you are highly skilled and there are jobs for 9750 among a 10000 population you are likely to get paid more. That's simple economics, not the benefits of unionization.

What about the Teamsters Union? Truck-drivers are not highly skilled, nor are warehousemen.

My son-in-law works for UPS. He owns a fine home on Long Island and supports his family very nicely. He never graduated high-school. Where would he be without the union?

What about the International Longshoreman's Association? And the Service Employee's International (janitors, window-washers, etc.)? There are many unions that serve the interests of unskilled workers who otherwise would be working like slaves for pitiful wages.

If any union truly cared about their members they would provide educational and training sources to help them rise above the unskilled level to one where they could be productive AND make a decent living.

As it is, union bosses care for nobody but themselves. As FDR pointed, letting public employees unionize was a cause for less production and responsiveness.

Longknife is full of sour grape Kool-Aid; I wonder what makes people like him so callous and so self righteous as well as ignorant. But I digress.

My son also drives for UPS. He has degrees in Math and Computer Technology but chose to work for UPS (where he worked 0400 to 0800 while going to school) because of Teamster Benefits and (in his words) the work is physical and he doesn't need to go to the gym.

Isn't it hypocritical that callous conservatives like Longknife call liberals elitists and yet demean working men and women as unskilled? Driving for UPS requires people skills, organizational skills and time management.

 

[longknife]

What about the Teamsters Union? Truck-drivers are not highly skilled, nor are warehousemen.

My son-in-law works for UPS. He owns a fine home on Long Island and supports his family very nicely. He never graduated high-school. Where would he be without the union?

What about the International Longshoreman's Association? And the Service Employee's International (janitors, window-washers, etc.)? There are many unions that serve the interests of unskilled workers who otherwise would be working like slaves for pitiful wages.

If any union truly cared about their members they would provide educational and training sources to help them rise above the unskilled level to one where they could be productive AND make a decent living.

As it is, union bosses care for nobody but themselves. As FDR pointed, letting public employees unionize was a cause for less production and responsiveness.

Longknife is full of sour grape Kool-Aid; I wonder what makes people like him so callous and so self righteous as well as ignorant. But I digress.

My son also drives for UPS. He has degrees in Math and Computer Technology but chose to work for UPS (where he worked 0400 to 0800 while going to school) because of Teamster Benefits and (in his words) the work is physical and he doesn't need to go to the gym.

Isn't it hypocritical that callous conservatives like Longknife call liberals elitists and yet demean working men and women as unskilled? Driving for UPS requires people skills, organizational skills and time management.

I find this easy to say but you are overstuffed with male bovine excrement.

My comments had nothing to do with "belittling working people." It had everything to do with unions taking action to improve the skills of their members.

Unions are the descendants of guilds which were designed to take unskilled workers and turn them into master craftsmen. Apprentice to Master, an education in many ways superior to the academic atmosphere where stress was/is on the esthetic skills.

Although Nevada is an Open Shop state, I worked for a company with union representation. I saw nothing from the union about providing training to gain skills to work up to management positions. Or even to advance to the level of having a CDL.

I will admit that some unions, specifically carpenters', plumbers', and electricians' here have schools where members may improve their skills. But, not the SIEU or other bloodsucker unions that care for nothing but the dues they receive so their shop bosses and general leadership can work in million dollar buildings at expensive desks with all the goodies any so-called private mogul would share.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

 

[Wry Catcher]

If any union truly cared about their members they would provide educational and training sources to help them rise above the unskilled level to one where they could be productive AND make a decent living.

As it is, union bosses care for nobody but themselves. As FDR pointed, letting public employees unionize was a cause for less production and responsiveness.

Longknife is full of sour grape Kool-Aid; I wonder what makes people like him so callous and so self righteous as well as ignorant. But I digress.

My son also drives for UPS. He has degrees in Math and Computer Technology but chose to work for UPS (where he worked 0400 to 0800 while going to school) because of Teamster Benefits and (in his words) the work is physical and he doesn't need to go to the gym.

Isn't it hypocritical that callous conservatives like Longknife call liberals elitists and yet demean working men and women as unskilled? Driving for UPS requires people skills, organizational skills and time management.

I find this easy to say but you are overstuffed with male bovine excrement.

I find this easier to say, you're an asshole.

My comments had nothing to do with "belittling working people." It had everything to do with unions taking action to improve the skills of their members.

Unions are the descendants of guilds which were designed to take unskilled workers and turn them into master craftsmen. Apprentice to Master, an education in many ways superior to the academic atmosphere where stress was/is on the esthetic skills.

Although Nevada is an Open Shop state, I worked for a company with union representation. I saw nothing from the union about providing training to gain skills to work up to management positions. Or even to advance to the level of having a CDL.

I will admit that some unions, specifically carpenters', plumbers', and electricians' here have schools where members may improve their skills. But, not the SIEU or other bloodsucker unions that care for nothing but the dues they receive so their shop bosses and general leadership can work in million dollar buildings at expensive desks with all the goodies any so-called private mogul would share.

Your ignorance (of the history of labor) is amazing. I suggest you look into Craft Guilds in the Middle Ages and read some American History, particular attention on the Gilded Age up to the 1930's. BTW, I spent most of my career in management, and spent lots of hours arguing and negotiating with business agents who worked for their membership and individuals within that structure.

I suggest putting away the Kool-Ade and opening your mind. Suggesting as you did in your final paragraph that union are bloodsuckers and not balancing your remarks on the business plan of Wal-Mart provides further evidence that you're a hack and my comment in red above is spot on.

 

[dblack]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

Yeah, yeah, yeah... everything is up to 'We the People', eh? Democratic totalitarianism. Go team!

 

[MikeK]

Say, are you getting booted out of the forum (having to log back in) from time to time or is it just me?

As far as I know I've never been booted out of this forum. Why do you ask?

 

[Publius1787]

Say, are you getting booted out of the forum (having to log back in) from time to time or is it just me?

As far as I know I've never been booted out of this forum. Why do you ask?

Forum was awfully glitch yesterday. It kept knocking me out.

 

[Publius1787]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

By that standard if "We the people" decide that every first born child should be decapitated then let it be so. No, that's just as laughable as your statement. The founders recognized that there were certain rights that no government had the authority to tamper with no matter how many of the people agreed. This is the problem with the left. They don't want individual liberty and rule of law. They want a French/Bolshevik Revolutionary government.

 

[MikeK]

If any union truly cared about their members they would provide educational and training sources to help them rise above the unskilled level to one where they could be productive AND make a decent living.

As it is, union bosses care for nobody but themselves. As FDR pointed, letting public employees unionize was a cause for less production and responsiveness.

Longknife is full of sour grape Kool-Aid; I wonder what makes people like him so callous and so self righteous as well as ignorant. But I digress.

My son also drives for UPS. He has degrees in Math and Computer Technology but chose to work for UPS (where he worked 0400 to 0800 while going to school) because of Teamster Benefits and (in his words) the work is physical and he doesn't need to go to the gym.

Isn't it hypocritical that callous conservatives like Longknife call liberals elitists and yet demean working men and women as unskilled? Driving for UPS requires people skills, organizational skills and time management.

I find this easy to say but you are overstuffed with male bovine excrement.

My comments had nothing to do with "belittling working people." It had everything to do with unions taking action to improve the skills of their members.

Unions are the descendants of guilds which were designed to take unskilled workers and turn them into master craftsmen. Apprentice to Master, an education in many ways superior to the academic atmosphere where stress was/is on the esthetic skills.

Although Nevada is an Open Shop state, I worked for a company with union representation. I saw nothing from the union about providing training to gain skills to work up to management positions. Or even to advance to the level of having a CDL.

I will admit that some unions, specifically carpenters', plumbers', and electricians' here have schools where members may improve their skills. But, not the SIEU or other bloodsucker unions that care for nothing but the dues they receive so their shop bosses and general leadership can work in million dollar buildings at expensive desks with all the goodies any so-called private mogul would share.

You are correct regarding the skilled trade unions (Electrical, Plumbing, Carpentry, Sheet Metal, etc.) providing trade-related educational benefits to their members. But the SEIU (Service Employees International) does not provide such benefits because their membership consists of non-skilled workers (janitors, window-washers, etc.) and there are no schools related to such occupations. Also, there is a considerable difference in the amount of dues paid by members of the skilled trade unions and the dues paid by SEIU members.

My son--in-law drives a trailer for UPS -- but he didn't start out in that capacity. He started with UPS sorting packages on the night-shift. Eventually he moved up to package delivery and during that time, while he was a Teamsters Union member, he paid $2,500 out of his own pocket to a school to learn how to drive eighteen wheelers. The Teamsters didn't pay for it -- even though it's a semi-skilled trade.

But the bottom line is my son-in-law owns a really nice home and takes very good care of his family -- as a truck driver. Were it not for the Teamsters Union he would be working like a slave for pittance wages.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

Yeah, yeah, yeah... everything is up to 'We the People', eh? Democratic totalitarianism. Go team!

Talk to a real totalitarian, son. Your nonsense is just that: nonsense.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

By that standard if "We the people" decide that every first born child should be decapitated then let it be so.

I accept that as your concession to the importance of our Bill of Rights. Or you actually mean it, which reveals you do not understand our Constitution and its laws.

But, not to worry. No one is going to decapitate you.

 

[Bombur]

Unions are no longer an effective way to represent labor for the most part. They have been critical in our history but we need to develop other methods that can help labor get the representation that it needs.

Keep in mind that the biggest problem the US faces today is a weak labor market. A market that has been poorly represented as people have found ways to turn the working people of America against themselves.

 

[MikeK]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

By that standard if "We the people" decide that every first born child should be decapitated then let it be so. No, that's just as laughable as your statement. The founders recognized that there were certain rights that no government had the authority to tamper with no matter how many of the people agreed. This is the problem with the left. They don't want individual liberty and rule of law. They want a French/Bolshevik Revolutionary government.

I suggest you've made a flawed comparison in that decapitating a newborn is an unacceptably immoral and criminal action but legislating a requirement which promotes union participation is not. The union "check-off" practice (mandatory dues) is both moral and lawful and it serves the ultimate interests of the working class by strengthening unions.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you enjoy the 8-hour work day, the 40-hour work week, paid overtime, paid vacation, along with a host of other benefits and worker protections, I suggest you re-think your apparent anti-union posture. I won't deny that some unions are corrupt and poorly managed, but this is wholly the fault of membership's failure to attend meetings and vote for good leadership. The point I wish to make here is, where unions are concerned, tossing out the baby with the bath water is a very bad idea.

The Union Movement is one of the best things ever happened to the American working class. Moving against unions is ignorantly self-defeating.

 

[dblack]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

That is up the We the People

Yeah, yeah, yeah... everything is up to 'We the People', eh? Democratic totalitarianism. Go team!

Talk to a real totalitarian, son. Your nonsense is just that: nonsense.

I'm not your son, jackass. And, near as I can tell, you claim 'anything goes' when it comes to majority rule, which is as totalitarian as it gets.

 

[oldfart]

Should People be Forced to Pay dues to a Union as a Condition of their Employment?

no.....but then the question comes up....should those who dont, get the Benefits that the Union got them.....i say no....you get what the company wants to give you .....

Of course no one suggests removing the legal impediment that forbids a union from negotiating a contract that prefers union members over non-union workers. This creates a free rider problem. Just change the law and let the union negotiate terms for union members ONLY. Everybody else can fend for themselves if they want.

 

[MikeK]

Unions are no longer an effective way to represent labor for the most part.

Why not?

They have been critical in our history but we need to develop other methods that can help labor get the representation that it needs.

Such as?

Keep in mind that the biggest problem the US faces today is a weak labor market.

Bigger than our corporate-corrupted Congress?

A market that has been poorly represented as people have found ways to turn the working people of America against themselves.

The working people of America are their own worst enemy. They have grown lazily complacent and allowed their corrupted legislators to undo most of the benefits earned by the blood, sweat, and tears of those who gave rise to the Union Movement.

As it is, things will need to get worse before they get better.