SJW's have ruined Movies/TVseries

[Correll]

Well, yes, that is part of it, in many cases. If a film maker(s) has as priority that in their own mind, is more important than making a good film, that is part of the issue, if not the primary cause.

what is a "good" film is 100% in the eye of the beholder. You have this notion in your head that if you did not like a film, then it was not a good film.

I disagree. I might note that every newpaper or network that pays film critics to review films, seems to disagree with you too.


Hell, HOLLYWOOD itself gives itself awards on which films are "Good", so, they seem to disagree with you too.

 

[Montrovant]

1. You are the one who suggested a movie about the Avengers being led by Captain America into conflict with the Sakovia Accords because America is better. Natasha Romanov isn't American, or at least not originally (one can only guess that she may have US citizenship in the movies). Wanda Maximoff isn't American. Vision isn't American. Thor isn't American. Also, the US was one of the signatories of the Accords in the films.

2. One of the reasons Black Panther was so popular is that it gave representation to blacks in big budget superhero movies that they hadn't had before. Since whites have had the vast majority of representation is those sorts of movies, the same draw doesn't exist. I'm pretty sure the majority of the cast in every Marvel movie other than Black Panther has been white.

3. Again, the representation issue. While one could conceivably get a majority of the cast to be conservatives, that would not be obvious the way having a majority black cast is. One doesn't need to give lines to every extra for the audience to see they are largely black; the same is not true of seeing that they are conservative. So again, the same sort of 'pandering' wouldn't work.

4. How did the movie target Black Nationalists? If anything, I would think it specifically pushed them away, since the villain of the movie seems like the closest thing to a Black Nationalist.

I still don't know who you think it is that does not go to see Marvel movies now, but would if they were more...blatantly patriotic, or however you want to describe your preferred plan for the movies.

I'm also curious if you believe your ideas for what should be in movies have ever been done before?

1. The Black Widow would have no trouble following Captain America. Neither would Wanda, Vision, nor Thor. That America signed could have been done differently, or simply presented as a mistake by an overly accommodating American President.


2.Blade would like to have a word with you. AND, that was only ONE of the reasons. Plenty of other way to target an audience.


3. "Majority of cast" is the weakest of reasons. YOu would want conservative characters presented sympathetically, and conservative ideas as the premise and/or elements for the plot. A movie glamorizing America and traditional American ideals, would be very well received by American movie goers.


4. There were a number of ideas presented, that fit with Black Nationalism view points and conspiracy theories. From a sympathetic character calling the lead white a "colonizer" to blacks just being presented as extremely competent, to the idea of African as high tech. I heard an actual black nationalists telling a co-worker that Africa really was like that, in the past, before something. Not to mention that the villain was presented as having a reasonable point of view and given quite a bit of time to monologue and to be rude to various white people. Cause, racism.

1. Sure, you can have all of them follow Cap...but if his reasoning is "America great!" having them follow him would be way outside of their characters. None of them has ever been portrayed as American patriots.

2. Blade was a comic book movie with a black lead....written by a white guy, directed by a white guy, with a mostly white cast. I've heard or read quite a few people saying that the black representation in all the major aspects of the film were a big reason they were so high on the film. Also, Blade came out well before the current super hero renaissance. It wasn't nearly as popular as the Marvel movies are now, so had a lesser impact.

3. You asked pandering the same way Black Panther did. Black Panther had a black lead, mostly black cast, black director, black writers. Even people who didn't know about the director or writer could see the level of black representation in the film. That same sort of thing wouldn't work for an ideology.

4. Wow. Blacks being presented as extremely competent is Black Nationalism. The idea of a high tech nation in Africa is Black Nationalism. I wonder, is that who Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting when they created the character, do you think?
Villains are often presented as having at least some degree of reason to their views. Hell, Thanos killed half the universe but was given a somewhat reasonable motivation.
"Rude to various white people"? Killmonger was rude to pretty much everyone.

1. It would be mindless simple to write a conflict between following UN direction and a can do American Altitude with Captain America in the lead. THe rest of the Avengers do not have to be American patriots to support or follow Captain America. I mean, I didn't go into detail there, because it seemed obvious.

2. Sure, it did not become the over hyped cultural mile stone that we all are supposed to pretend the Black Panther was. But it was a major motion picture and it was actually GOOD.

3. Do you think Captain America, before he went back in time at the end of Endgame, was a virgin?

4. When it is against whites who are mostly there to be incompetent or helpless, yes.

1. If this is all so mindlessly simple, why aren't you writing a screenplay that will make billions?
You said that Captain America would reject the Accords because of patriotism and nationalism, and because America is better. If those were his reasons, no, having all the Avengers follow him would not make sense.

2. What is or is not good is subjective. However, Black Panther was clearly a much more popular movie, seen by more people than Blade. And clearly Black Panther had far more black representation in the major aspects of filmmaking than Blade did.

3. I don't know nor care, nor do I understand what that question has to do with the conversation.

4. So all of the blacks being competent in Black Panther were doing so "against whites"? What movie did you watch?
Again I will ask, do you think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting Black Nationalists when they created the Black Panther character?

1.

1. You are the one who suggested a movie about the Avengers being led by Captain America into conflict with the Sakovia Accords because America is better. Natasha Romanov isn't American, or at least not originally (one can only guess that she may have US citizenship in the movies). Wanda Maximoff isn't American. Vision isn't American. Thor isn't American. Also, the US was one of the signatories of the Accords in the films.

2. One of the reasons Black Panther was so popular is that it gave representation to blacks in big budget superhero movies that they hadn't had before. Since whites have had the vast majority of representation is those sorts of movies, the same draw doesn't exist. I'm pretty sure the majority of the cast in every Marvel movie other than Black Panther has been white.

3. Again, the representation issue. While one could conceivably get a majority of the cast to be conservatives, that would not be obvious the way having a majority black cast is. One doesn't need to give lines to every extra for the audience to see they are largely black; the same is not true of seeing that they are conservative. So again, the same sort of 'pandering' wouldn't work.

4. How did the movie target Black Nationalists? If anything, I would think it specifically pushed them away, since the villain of the movie seems like the closest thing to a Black Nationalist.

I still don't know who you think it is that does not go to see Marvel movies now, but would if they were more...blatantly patriotic, or however you want to describe your preferred plan for the movies.

I'm also curious if you believe your ideas for what should be in movies have ever been done before?

1. The Black Widow would have no trouble following Captain America. Neither would Wanda, Vision, nor Thor. That America signed could have been done differently, or simply presented as a mistake by an overly accommodating American President.


2.Blade would like to have a word with you. AND, that was only ONE of the reasons. Plenty of other way to target an audience.


3. "Majority of cast" is the weakest of reasons. YOu would want conservative characters presented sympathetically, and conservative ideas as the premise and/or elements for the plot. A movie glamorizing America and traditional American ideals, would be very well received by American movie goers.


4. There were a number of ideas presented, that fit with Black Nationalism view points and conspiracy theories. From a sympathetic character calling the lead white a "colonizer" to blacks just being presented as extremely competent, to the idea of African as high tech. I heard an actual black nationalists telling a co-worker that Africa really was like that, in the past, before something. Not to mention that the villain was presented as having a reasonable point of view and given quite a bit of time to monologue and to be rude to various white people. Cause, racism.

1. Sure, you can have all of them follow Cap...but if his reasoning is "America great!" having them follow him would be way outside of their characters. None of them has ever been portrayed as American patriots.

2. Blade was a comic book movie with a black lead....written by a white guy, directed by a white guy, with a mostly white cast. I've heard or read quite a few people saying that the black representation in all the major aspects of the film were a big reason they were so high on the film. Also, Blade came out well before the current super hero renaissance. It wasn't nearly as popular as the Marvel movies are now, so had a lesser impact.

3. You asked pandering the same way Black Panther did. Black Panther had a black lead, mostly black cast, black director, black writers. Even people who didn't know about the director or writer could see the level of black representation in the film. That same sort of thing wouldn't work for an ideology.

4. Wow. Blacks being presented as extremely competent is Black Nationalism. The idea of a high tech nation in Africa is Black Nationalism. I wonder, is that who Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting when they created the character, do you think?
Villains are often presented as having at least some degree of reason to their views. Hell, Thanos killed half the universe but was given a somewhat reasonable motivation.
"Rude to various white people"? Killmonger was rude to pretty much everyone.

1. It would be mindless simple to write a conflict between following UN direction and a can do American Altitude with Captain America in the lead. THe rest of the Avengers do not have to be American patriots to support or follow Captain America. I mean, I didn't go into detail there, because it seemed obvious.

2. Sure, it did not become the over hyped cultural mile stone that we all are supposed to pretend the Black Panther was. But it was a major motion picture and it was actually GOOD.

3. Do you think Captain America, before he went back in time at the end of Endgame, was a virgin?

4. When it is against whites who are mostly there to be incompetent or helpless, yes.

1. If this is all so mindlessly simple, why aren't you writing a screenplay that will make billions?
You said that Captain America would reject the Accords because of patriotism and nationalism, and because America is better. If those were his reasons, no, having all the Avengers follow him would not make sense.

2. What is or is not good is subjective. However, Black Panther was clearly a much more popular movie, seen by more people than Blade. And clearly Black Panther had far more black representation in the major aspects of filmmaking than Blade did.

3. I don't know nor care, nor do I understand what that question has to do with the conversation.

4. So all of the blacks being competent in Black Panther were doing so "against whites"? What movie did you watch?
Again I will ask, do you think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting Black Nationalists when they created the Black Panther character?

1. I said more than that. Hell, even the actual Civil War touched on the conflict between the UN's desire for control, and the needs for decisive action. Such a conflict could easily be milked for America Yeah, feel good-ness for the American movie going audience. There is a lack of balance.


2. Not completely. You see characters or situations or plot elements that don't make sense, and you can judge that accordingly. Blade's setting was pretty simple and held together nicely. Vampires exist, and the human governments hide the fact. Blade is a vampire hunter. Black Panther? Vibrainum exists and Wakandans use it for shit. Why has no one else noticed? Oh, they hide it. How? Magic cloaking shied. How did they develop that, when did they, what did they do before that? If they are so strong, why did they just sit there and not doing anything while the rest of their content was overrun by "colonizers"? ect. ect. ect.



3. Really? I would think it would be obvious. Captain America is effectively a time traveler from before the Sexual Revolution. Thor and Iron Man both hav plot lines about a romantic interest. If Captain America had such a plot line, they could have had so much fun dealing with him being a super hero who is terrified of modern women. And if they presented his position as sympathetic, or having some validity, it could have been used to pander to conservatives. Can you imagine a Captain America getting married scene? Think that might appeal to female fans? But Hollywood as it is, can't do that. No balance.


4. Look at Killmonger's scene with the female curator. He ridiculed her for buying a cup of coffee, and stupidly not paying attention to what was put in it. That makes no sense. That is the type of shit a bully says to justify their actions. It was up there with "why are you hitting yourself".


Could not say who they were trying to appeal to. Hopefully just black potential customers. Hopefully not Black Nationalists. But it is worth pointing out that, there is no reason that a comic with a black main character cannot appeal to whites. If it is a good comic. Or even ok. Or really, just not shit.

1. Civil War was a plotline adapted from the comics. It wouldn't work as an "America great, UN bad" story. Your concept would need to be completely on its own. And why isn't Captain America leading the Avengers already milking America Yeah feel good-ness?

2. What you just said is subjective. If you don't see that...I'm not sure what to say. Someone might look at that and say, "Vampires don't make sense. Blade being half vampire doesn't make sense. It's silly made up bullshit. Science-fiction style technology is at least possible." Or any of a million other comparisons between the movies.
More importantly is my point that Black Panther was vastly more popular and able to have a greater impact, as well as having far greater black representation.

3. Cap had a romantic interest. It's why he went back in time.

4. Killmonger was a bully. And?

 

[Correll]

1. The Black Widow would have no trouble following Captain America. Neither would Wanda, Vision, nor Thor. That America signed could have been done differently, or simply presented as a mistake by an overly accommodating American President.


2.Blade would like to have a word with you. AND, that was only ONE of the reasons. Plenty of other way to target an audience.


3. "Majority of cast" is the weakest of reasons. YOu would want conservative characters presented sympathetically, and conservative ideas as the premise and/or elements for the plot. A movie glamorizing America and traditional American ideals, would be very well received by American movie goers.


4. There were a number of ideas presented, that fit with Black Nationalism view points and conspiracy theories. From a sympathetic character calling the lead white a "colonizer" to blacks just being presented as extremely competent, to the idea of African as high tech. I heard an actual black nationalists telling a co-worker that Africa really was like that, in the past, before something. Not to mention that the villain was presented as having a reasonable point of view and given quite a bit of time to monologue and to be rude to various white people. Cause, racism.

1. Sure, you can have all of them follow Cap...but if his reasoning is "America great!" having them follow him would be way outside of their characters. None of them has ever been portrayed as American patriots.

2. Blade was a comic book movie with a black lead....written by a white guy, directed by a white guy, with a mostly white cast. I've heard or read quite a few people saying that the black representation in all the major aspects of the film were a big reason they were so high on the film. Also, Blade came out well before the current super hero renaissance. It wasn't nearly as popular as the Marvel movies are now, so had a lesser impact.

3. You asked pandering the same way Black Panther did. Black Panther had a black lead, mostly black cast, black director, black writers. Even people who didn't know about the director or writer could see the level of black representation in the film. That same sort of thing wouldn't work for an ideology.

4. Wow. Blacks being presented as extremely competent is Black Nationalism. The idea of a high tech nation in Africa is Black Nationalism. I wonder, is that who Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting when they created the character, do you think?
Villains are often presented as having at least some degree of reason to their views. Hell, Thanos killed half the universe but was given a somewhat reasonable motivation.
"Rude to various white people"? Killmonger was rude to pretty much everyone.

1. It would be mindless simple to write a conflict between following UN direction and a can do American Altitude with Captain America in the lead. THe rest of the Avengers do not have to be American patriots to support or follow Captain America. I mean, I didn't go into detail there, because it seemed obvious.

2. Sure, it did not become the over hyped cultural mile stone that we all are supposed to pretend the Black Panther was. But it was a major motion picture and it was actually GOOD.

3. Do you think Captain America, before he went back in time at the end of Endgame, was a virgin?

4. When it is against whites who are mostly there to be incompetent or helpless, yes.

1. If this is all so mindlessly simple, why aren't you writing a screenplay that will make billions?
You said that Captain America would reject the Accords because of patriotism and nationalism, and because America is better. If those were his reasons, no, having all the Avengers follow him would not make sense.

2. What is or is not good is subjective. However, Black Panther was clearly a much more popular movie, seen by more people than Blade. And clearly Black Panther had far more black representation in the major aspects of filmmaking than Blade did.

3. I don't know nor care, nor do I understand what that question has to do with the conversation.

4. So all of the blacks being competent in Black Panther were doing so "against whites"? What movie did you watch?
Again I will ask, do you think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting Black Nationalists when they created the Black Panther character?

1.

1. The Black Widow would have no trouble following Captain America. Neither would Wanda, Vision, nor Thor. That America signed could have been done differently, or simply presented as a mistake by an overly accommodating American President.


2.Blade would like to have a word with you. AND, that was only ONE of the reasons. Plenty of other way to target an audience.


3. "Majority of cast" is the weakest of reasons. YOu would want conservative characters presented sympathetically, and conservative ideas as the premise and/or elements for the plot. A movie glamorizing America and traditional American ideals, would be very well received by American movie goers.


4. There were a number of ideas presented, that fit with Black Nationalism view points and conspiracy theories. From a sympathetic character calling the lead white a "colonizer" to blacks just being presented as extremely competent, to the idea of African as high tech. I heard an actual black nationalists telling a co-worker that Africa really was like that, in the past, before something. Not to mention that the villain was presented as having a reasonable point of view and given quite a bit of time to monologue and to be rude to various white people. Cause, racism.

1. Sure, you can have all of them follow Cap...but if his reasoning is "America great!" having them follow him would be way outside of their characters. None of them has ever been portrayed as American patriots.

2. Blade was a comic book movie with a black lead....written by a white guy, directed by a white guy, with a mostly white cast. I've heard or read quite a few people saying that the black representation in all the major aspects of the film were a big reason they were so high on the film. Also, Blade came out well before the current super hero renaissance. It wasn't nearly as popular as the Marvel movies are now, so had a lesser impact.

3. You asked pandering the same way Black Panther did. Black Panther had a black lead, mostly black cast, black director, black writers. Even people who didn't know about the director or writer could see the level of black representation in the film. That same sort of thing wouldn't work for an ideology.

4. Wow. Blacks being presented as extremely competent is Black Nationalism. The idea of a high tech nation in Africa is Black Nationalism. I wonder, is that who Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting when they created the character, do you think?
Villains are often presented as having at least some degree of reason to their views. Hell, Thanos killed half the universe but was given a somewhat reasonable motivation.
"Rude to various white people"? Killmonger was rude to pretty much everyone.

1. It would be mindless simple to write a conflict between following UN direction and a can do American Altitude with Captain America in the lead. THe rest of the Avengers do not have to be American patriots to support or follow Captain America. I mean, I didn't go into detail there, because it seemed obvious.

2. Sure, it did not become the over hyped cultural mile stone that we all are supposed to pretend the Black Panther was. But it was a major motion picture and it was actually GOOD.

3. Do you think Captain America, before he went back in time at the end of Endgame, was a virgin?

4. When it is against whites who are mostly there to be incompetent or helpless, yes.

1. If this is all so mindlessly simple, why aren't you writing a screenplay that will make billions?
You said that Captain America would reject the Accords because of patriotism and nationalism, and because America is better. If those were his reasons, no, having all the Avengers follow him would not make sense.

2. What is or is not good is subjective. However, Black Panther was clearly a much more popular movie, seen by more people than Blade. And clearly Black Panther had far more black representation in the major aspects of filmmaking than Blade did.

3. I don't know nor care, nor do I understand what that question has to do with the conversation.

4. So all of the blacks being competent in Black Panther were doing so "against whites"? What movie did you watch?
Again I will ask, do you think that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting Black Nationalists when they created the Black Panther character?

1. I said more than that. Hell, even the actual Civil War touched on the conflict between the UN's desire for control, and the needs for decisive action. Such a conflict could easily be milked for America Yeah, feel good-ness for the American movie going audience. There is a lack of balance.


2. Not completely. You see characters or situations or plot elements that don't make sense, and you can judge that accordingly. Blade's setting was pretty simple and held together nicely. Vampires exist, and the human governments hide the fact. Blade is a vampire hunter. Black Panther? Vibrainum exists and Wakandans use it for shit. Why has no one else noticed? Oh, they hide it. How? Magic cloaking shied. How did they develop that, when did they, what did they do before that? If they are so strong, why did they just sit there and not doing anything while the rest of their content was overrun by "colonizers"? ect. ect. ect.



3. Really? I would think it would be obvious. Captain America is effectively a time traveler from before the Sexual Revolution. Thor and Iron Man both hav plot lines about a romantic interest. If Captain America had such a plot line, they could have had so much fun dealing with him being a super hero who is terrified of modern women. And if they presented his position as sympathetic, or having some validity, it could have been used to pander to conservatives. Can you imagine a Captain America getting married scene? Think that might appeal to female fans? But Hollywood as it is, can't do that. No balance.


4. Look at Killmonger's scene with the female curator. He ridiculed her for buying a cup of coffee, and stupidly not paying attention to what was put in it. That makes no sense. That is the type of shit a bully says to justify their actions. It was up there with "why are you hitting yourself".


Could not say who they were trying to appeal to. Hopefully just black potential customers. Hopefully not Black Nationalists. But it is worth pointing out that, there is no reason that a comic with a black main character cannot appeal to whites. If it is a good comic. Or even ok. Or really, just not shit.

1. Civil War was a plotline adapted from the comics. It wouldn't work as an "America great, UN bad" story. Your concept would need to be completely on its own. And why isn't Captain America leading the Avengers already milking America Yeah feel good-ness?

2. What you just said is subjective. If you don't see that...I'm not sure what to say. Someone might look at that and say, "Vampires don't make sense. Blade being half vampire doesn't make sense. It's silly made up bullshit. Science-fiction style technology is at least possible." Or any of a million other comparisons between the movies.
More importantly is my point that Black Panther was vastly more popular and able to have a greater impact, as well as having far greater black representation.

3. Cap had a romantic interest. It's why he went back in time.

4. Killmonger was a bully. And?

1. Not familiar with comic Civil War canon, but this is offered more as an example of what could be done, instead of a specific "only this way". And because of the way the character is presented. Do you think he was used to pander to Traditional Americans, Conservatives or Whites, the way that Black Panther targeted blacks?



2. Ideally, the viewer only has to suspend disbelief ONCE. Vampires exist, everything else should flow from that, or at least be believable in the context of that. If Vampires exist and they can turn humans into vampires, the idea that a woman giving birth during the transition, could result is an aberration of the accepted norm. In Black Panther, you had to suspend disbelief with the Vibranium. That Wakanda advanced rapidly with a magic resource? OK. But why not expand then, how to keep secret instead? A substance that has weird vibration qualities, leads to super human enhancing drugs? Sure I can suspend disbelief again. Oh, and why not use it on a mass scale to enhance the loyal troops to defend the whole continent, or the world? Don't know. Why is his sister so inhumanly brilliant? Don't know, I can suspend disbelief. And so on.


3. YOu don't see any potential humor/drama in having a super hero afraid of modern sexually assertive women? You really just want to dismiss that? YOu don't see my point how that could be used to appeal to a large segment of the viewers?


4. You are kidding yourself if you think it was presented or received that way.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Well, yes, that is part of it, in many cases. If a film maker(s) has as priority that in their own mind, is more important than making a good film, that is part of the issue, if not the primary cause.

what is a "good" film is 100% in the eye of the beholder. You have this notion in your head that if you did not like a film, then it was not a good film.

I disagree. I might note that every newpaper or network that pays film critics to review films, seems to disagree with you too.


Hell, HOLLYWOOD itself gives itself awards on which films are "Good", so, they seem to disagree with you too.

Black panther got great reviews from thee critics, it got great reviews from the movie goers and made a shit ton of movie yet you claimed it sucked. The problem seems to be you, and not the movie.

 

[Correll]

Well, yes, that is part of it, in many cases. If a film maker(s) has as priority that in their own mind, is more important than making a good film, that is part of the issue, if not the primary cause.

what is a "good" film is 100% in the eye of the beholder. You have this notion in your head that if you did not like a film, then it was not a good film.

I disagree. I might note that every newpaper or network that pays film critics to review films, seems to disagree with you too.


Hell, HOLLYWOOD itself gives itself awards on which films are "Good", so, they seem to disagree with you too.

Black panther got great reviews from thee critics, it got great reviews from the movie goers and made a shit ton of movie yet you claimed it sucked. The problem seems to be you, and not the movie.

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

Those points matter to you, not to the rest of us. That is what you cannot seem to understand.

 

[Correll]

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

Those points matter to you, not to the rest of us. That is what you cannot seem to understand.

It is not that I do not understand your position or points, it is I disagree with them.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

Those points matter to you, not to the rest of us. That is what you cannot seem to understand.

It is not that I do not understand your position or points, it is I disagree with them.

yet you expect us all to judge movies by the same standard that you do.

 

[Correll]

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

Those points matter to you, not to the rest of us. That is what you cannot seem to understand.

It is not that I do not understand your position or points, it is I disagree with them.

yet you expect us all to judge movies by the same standard that you do.

I expect that we can try to judge all movies by some standards/merits, and not by whether or not we agree with whatever message they are pushing.


Actually, no not even that. I would LIKE if we could do that. It would be a small step back towards sanity for our society.

I EXPECT, conformity to the mob. I EXPECT that when I speak out against it, that I will be vilified and attacked by the mob, for my failure to conform.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

Those points matter to you, not to the rest of us. That is what you cannot seem to understand.

It is not that I do not understand your position or points, it is I disagree with them.

yet you expect us all to judge movies by the same standard that you do.

I expect that we can try to judge all movies by some standards/merits, and not by whether or not we agree with whatever message they are pushing.


Actually, no not even that. I would LIKE if we could do that. It would be a small step back towards sanity for our society.

I EXPECT, conformity to the mob. I EXPECT that when I speak out against it, that I will be vilified and attacked by the mob, for my failure to conform.

So, you really do not want us all to judge all movies by some standards/merits but to judge all movies by YOUR standards/merits. But when we do not bow down to your views we are just mindless mobs afraid to rock the boat.

and you wonder why I mock you.

 

[Correll]

Sometimes the world is wrong and the one guy is right.

I've made a number of points about the movie, better than just telling me the Appeal to Popularity Fallacy, let's discuss those points.

Those points matter to you, not to the rest of us. That is what you cannot seem to understand.

It is not that I do not understand your position or points, it is I disagree with them.

yet you expect us all to judge movies by the same standard that you do.

I expect that we can try to judge all movies by some standards/merits, and not by whether or not we agree with whatever message they are pushing.


Actually, no not even that. I would LIKE if we could do that. It would be a small step back towards sanity for our society.

I EXPECT, conformity to the mob. I EXPECT that when I speak out against it, that I will be vilified and attacked by the mob, for my failure to conform.

So, you really do not want us all to judge all movies by some standards/merits but to judge all movies by YOUR standards/merits. But when we do not bow down to your views we are just mindless mobs afraid to rock the boat.

and you wonder why I mock you.

1. You seem to be conflating the subjective standards of what is an enjoyable film, with the less subjective/more objective standards of what makes a good film.


2. And no, not everyone who disagrees with me on any film is part of a mindless mob. But right now, we are in a period of mass hysteria, and the mob is running wild. AND Black Panther is a bad film that the mob is demanding we all pretend is great. It is an extreme example, perhaps the most extreme example of all time of this phenomenon.

3. No, I don't wonder why you mock me. I understand completely how dangerous it would be for you to not conform. The people in your life who right now, accept your significant deviations from Conformity, might start to question whether you were a bad person, if you went further and did not kowtow to the mob on BLACK PANTHER. You might lose friends. Your career could suffer. Who knows?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

1. You seem to be conflating the subjective standards of what is an enjoyable film, with the less subjective/more objective standards of what makes a good film.


2. And no, not everyone who disagrees with me on any film is part of a mindless mob. But right now, we are in a period of mass hysteria, and the mob is running wild. AND Black Panther is a bad film that the mob is demanding we all pretend is great. It is an extreme example, perhaps the most extreme example of all time of this phenomenon.

3. No, I don't wonder why you mock me. I understand completely how dangerous it would be for you to not conform. The people in your life who right now, accept your significant deviations from Conformity, might start to question whether you were a bad person, if you went further and did not kowtow to the mob on BLACK PANTHER. You might lose friends. Your career could suffer. Who knows?

1. Enjoyability is the only thing that matters, if you enjoy a movie then it was a good movie, if you do not then it was not a good movie.

2. According to you and pretty much only you, yet again anyone that does not agree with you is part of the mindless mob. Weird how you point to conformity as a bad thing but then rant and rave about how people will not confirm with you.

3. I think perhaps someone like yourself that is a party drone should not speak of others and conformity.

 

[rightwinger]

1. Anyone can be written to do anything.

2. Which group do you think has not been represented in the superhero genre that could be in a similar fashion? Not whites, obviously. Conservatives? That wouldn't work in the same way. Also, you seem to be thinking that Black Panther was only watched by blacks. Marvel fans are going to watch their movies, generally speaking, regardless of who the movie may pander to. Marvel fans watched Black Panther, they watched Captain Marvel, they watched Avengers, etc. I doubt very many decided to stay home because they felt the movies pandered to a particular audience. So unless you want to argue that many marvel fans didn't bother going to see Black Panther because it pandered, who is it you think is not watching Marvel movies now but would be if they followed whatever formula you think is best?

1. Characters can be written to do anything. If you have no respect for the product or the fans.

2. Why not whites?

3. Why not conservatives?

4. Incorrect. I am well aware that non-blacks went and watched Black Panther in large numbers. That does not mean it was not targeted at blacks, specifically Black Nationalists.

1. You are the one who suggested a movie about the Avengers being led by Captain America into conflict with the Sakovia Accords because America is better. Natasha Romanov isn't American, or at least not originally (one can only guess that she may have US citizenship in the movies). Wanda Maximoff isn't American. Vision isn't American. Thor isn't American. Also, the US was one of the signatories of the Accords in the films.

2. One of the reasons Black Panther was so popular is that it gave representation to blacks in big budget superhero movies that they hadn't had before. Since whites have had the vast majority of representation is those sorts of movies, the same draw doesn't exist. I'm pretty sure the majority of the cast in every Marvel movie other than Black Panther has been white.

3. Again, the representation issue. While one could conceivably get a majority of the cast to be conservatives, that would not be obvious the way having a majority black cast is. One doesn't need to give lines to every extra for the audience to see they are largely black; the same is not true of seeing that they are conservative. So again, the same sort of 'pandering' wouldn't work.

4. How did the movie target Black Nationalists? If anything, I would think it specifically pushed them away, since the villain of the movie seems like the closest thing to a Black Nationalist.

I still don't know who you think it is that does not go to see Marvel movies now, but would if they were more...blatantly patriotic, or however you want to describe your preferred plan for the movies.

I'm also curious if you believe your ideas for what should be in movies have ever been done before?

1. The Black Widow would have no trouble following Captain America. Neither would Wanda, Vision, nor Thor. That America signed could have been done differently, or simply presented as a mistake by an overly accommodating American President.


2.Blade would like to have a word with you. AND, that was only ONE of the reasons. Plenty of other way to target an audience.


3. "Majority of cast" is the weakest of reasons. YOu would want conservative characters presented sympathetically, and conservative ideas as the premise and/or elements for the plot. A movie glamorizing America and traditional American ideals, would be very well received by American movie goers.


4. There were a number of ideas presented, that fit with Black Nationalism view points and conspiracy theories. From a sympathetic character calling the lead white a "colonizer" to blacks just being presented as extremely competent, to the idea of African as high tech. I heard an actual black nationalists telling a co-worker that Africa really was like that, in the past, before something. Not to mention that the villain was presented as having a reasonable point of view and given quite a bit of time to monologue and to be rude to various white people. Cause, racism.

1. Sure, you can have all of them follow Cap...but if his reasoning is "America great!" having them follow him would be way outside of their characters. None of them has ever been portrayed as American patriots.

2. Blade was a comic book movie with a black lead....written by a white guy, directed by a white guy, with a mostly white cast. I've heard or read quite a few people saying that the black representation in all the major aspects of the film were a big reason they were so high on the film. Also, Blade came out well before the current super hero renaissance. It wasn't nearly as popular as the Marvel movies are now, so had a lesser impact.

3. You asked pandering the same way Black Panther did. Black Panther had a black lead, mostly black cast, black director, black writers. Even people who didn't know about the director or writer could see the level of black representation in the film. That same sort of thing wouldn't work for an ideology.

4. Wow. Blacks being presented as extremely competent is Black Nationalism. The idea of a high tech nation in Africa is Black Nationalism. I wonder, is that who Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting when they created the character, do you think?
Villains are often presented as having at least some degree of reason to their views. Hell, Thanos killed half the universe but was given a somewhat reasonable motivation.
"Rude to various white people"? Killmonger was rude to pretty much everyone.

I Googled "conservative films 2019" yesterday, and this was the top article, from National Review:
2018's Conservative Movies: The Top Ten | National Review

Black Panther made the list. This is a hoot.

Conservatives don’t make good movies

Boring

 

[Correll]

1. You seem to be conflating the subjective standards of what is an enjoyable film, with the less subjective/more objective standards of what makes a good film.


2. And no, not everyone who disagrees with me on any film is part of a mindless mob. But right now, we are in a period of mass hysteria, and the mob is running wild. AND Black Panther is a bad film that the mob is demanding we all pretend is great. It is an extreme example, perhaps the most extreme example of all time of this phenomenon.

3. No, I don't wonder why you mock me. I understand completely how dangerous it would be for you to not conform. The people in your life who right now, accept your significant deviations from Conformity, might start to question whether you were a bad person, if you went further and did not kowtow to the mob on BLACK PANTHER. You might lose friends. Your career could suffer. Who knows?

1. Enjoyability is the only thing that matters, if you enjoy a movie then it was a good movie, if you do not then it was not a good movie.

2. According to you and pretty much only you, yet again anyone that does not agree with you is part of the mindless mob. Weird how you point to conformity as a bad thing but then rant and rave about how people will not confirm with you.

3. I think perhaps someone like yourself that is a party drone should not speak of others and conformity.

1. Enjoyability might be the only thing that matters to you. I think good movie elements, such as believable characters, plots that hold together and good special effects contribute to making a movie enjoyable, or even more enjoyable. And that discussing and thinking about such elements can be productive.


2. Nope. As I just stated, I can respect reasonable disagreements, especially on subjective matters. But BLACK PANTHER, is, imo, an extreme example of a bad phenomenon. Movies and society would improve, if there was significant pushback to this.


3. Your inability to understand me is understandable. I am very different than most people you likely know. If you care to, try paying more attention. YOu might learn something.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

1. Enjoyability might be the only thing that matters to you. I think good movie elements, such as believable characters, plots that hold together and good special effects contribute to making a movie enjoyable, or even more enjoyable. And that discussing and thinking about such elements can be productive.


2. Nope. As I just stated, I can respect reasonable disagreements, especially on subjective matters. But BLACK PANTHER, is, imo, an extreme example of a bad phenomenon. Movies and society would improve, if there was significant pushback to this.


3. Your inability to understand me is understandable. I am very different than most people you likely know. If you care to, try paying more attention. YOu might learn something.

1. Enjoyability is the only thing that matters to anyone, even you. You just said those things make the movie more enjoyable. Who gives a fuck if a movie is "well made" but not enjoyable to watch?

2. But you cannot, you cannot respect that I enjoyed the movie, you have to make it about something more. You have to turn me into a mindless drone because I enjoyed the movie, you have no respect for anyone that does not bow down and tell you how fucking amazing you are.

3. I understand you better than you understand yourself. You have a highly inflated view of yourself, you are neither complicated nor different, all you are doing is parroting the far right wing line.

 

[rightwinger]

1. Enjoyability might be the only thing that matters to you. I think good movie elements, such as believable characters, plots that hold together and good special effects contribute to making a movie enjoyable, or even more enjoyable. And that discussing and thinking about such elements can be productive.


2. Nope. As I just stated, I can respect reasonable disagreements, especially on subjective matters. But BLACK PANTHER, is, imo, an extreme example of a bad phenomenon. Movies and society would improve, if there was significant pushback to this.


3. Your inability to understand me is understandable. I am very different than most people you likely know. If you care to, try paying more attention. YOu might learn something.

1. Enjoyability is the only thing that matters to anyone, even you. You just said those things make the movie more enjoyable. Who gives a fuck if a movie is "well made" but not enjoyable to watch?

2. But you cannot, you cannot respect that I enjoyed the movie, you have to make it about something more. You have to turn me into a mindless drone because I enjoyed the movie, you have no respect for anyone that does not bow down and tell you how fucking amazing you are.

3. I understand you better than you understand yourself. You have a highly inflated view of yourself, you are neither complicated nor different, all you are doing is parroting the far right wing line.

If enjoyability was the only thing that matters, all we would watch would be porn movies.

But some movies make you sad, some scare the shit out of you, some make you think, some are educational.

A good movie has an emotional impact on the viewer

 

[rightwinger]

Conservatives make bad movies because conservative issues are pretty boring. Liberals write about the downtrodden, those wronged by society

Who wants to see a movie about how rich someone is?

 

[Correll]

1. Characters can be written to do anything. If you have no respect for the product or the fans.

2. Why not whites?

3. Why not conservatives?

4. Incorrect. I am well aware that non-blacks went and watched Black Panther in large numbers. That does not mean it was not targeted at blacks, specifically Black Nationalists.

1. You are the one who suggested a movie about the Avengers being led by Captain America into conflict with the Sakovia Accords because America is better. Natasha Romanov isn't American, or at least not originally (one can only guess that she may have US citizenship in the movies). Wanda Maximoff isn't American. Vision isn't American. Thor isn't American. Also, the US was one of the signatories of the Accords in the films.

2. One of the reasons Black Panther was so popular is that it gave representation to blacks in big budget superhero movies that they hadn't had before. Since whites have had the vast majority of representation is those sorts of movies, the same draw doesn't exist. I'm pretty sure the majority of the cast in every Marvel movie other than Black Panther has been white.

3. Again, the representation issue. While one could conceivably get a majority of the cast to be conservatives, that would not be obvious the way having a majority black cast is. One doesn't need to give lines to every extra for the audience to see they are largely black; the same is not true of seeing that they are conservative. So again, the same sort of 'pandering' wouldn't work.

4. How did the movie target Black Nationalists? If anything, I would think it specifically pushed them away, since the villain of the movie seems like the closest thing to a Black Nationalist.

I still don't know who you think it is that does not go to see Marvel movies now, but would if they were more...blatantly patriotic, or however you want to describe your preferred plan for the movies.

I'm also curious if you believe your ideas for what should be in movies have ever been done before?

1. The Black Widow would have no trouble following Captain America. Neither would Wanda, Vision, nor Thor. That America signed could have been done differently, or simply presented as a mistake by an overly accommodating American President.


2.Blade would like to have a word with you. AND, that was only ONE of the reasons. Plenty of other way to target an audience.


3. "Majority of cast" is the weakest of reasons. YOu would want conservative characters presented sympathetically, and conservative ideas as the premise and/or elements for the plot. A movie glamorizing America and traditional American ideals, would be very well received by American movie goers.


4. There were a number of ideas presented, that fit with Black Nationalism view points and conspiracy theories. From a sympathetic character calling the lead white a "colonizer" to blacks just being presented as extremely competent, to the idea of African as high tech. I heard an actual black nationalists telling a co-worker that Africa really was like that, in the past, before something. Not to mention that the villain was presented as having a reasonable point of view and given quite a bit of time to monologue and to be rude to various white people. Cause, racism.

1. Sure, you can have all of them follow Cap...but if his reasoning is "America great!" having them follow him would be way outside of their characters. None of them has ever been portrayed as American patriots.

2. Blade was a comic book movie with a black lead....written by a white guy, directed by a white guy, with a mostly white cast. I've heard or read quite a few people saying that the black representation in all the major aspects of the film were a big reason they were so high on the film. Also, Blade came out well before the current super hero renaissance. It wasn't nearly as popular as the Marvel movies are now, so had a lesser impact.

3. You asked pandering the same way Black Panther did. Black Panther had a black lead, mostly black cast, black director, black writers. Even people who didn't know about the director or writer could see the level of black representation in the film. That same sort of thing wouldn't work for an ideology.

4. Wow. Blacks being presented as extremely competent is Black Nationalism. The idea of a high tech nation in Africa is Black Nationalism. I wonder, is that who Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were targeting when they created the character, do you think?
Villains are often presented as having at least some degree of reason to their views. Hell, Thanos killed half the universe but was given a somewhat reasonable motivation.
"Rude to various white people"? Killmonger was rude to pretty much everyone.

I Googled "conservative films 2019" yesterday, and this was the top article, from National Review:
2018's Conservative Movies: The Top Ten | National Review

Black Panther made the list. This is a hoot.

Conservatives don’t make good movies

Boring

Any other group, not represented in an industry, and liberals seen discrimination as the only possible cause.

When it is them doing it, suddenly, there are soooooo many other reasons.


morons.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

If enjoyability was the only thing that matters, all we would watch would be porn movies.

But some movies make you sad, some scare the shit out of you, some make you think, some are educational.

A good movie has an emotional impact on the viewer

Porn gets boring really quick.

Movies that scare people are viewed by people that enjoy that. My wife would not pay to see a scary movie as she does not find them enjoyable. Same goes with being sad, personally I hate movies that leave me feeling sad but my wife loves them. Thus she finds them enjoyable and I do not.

 

[Correll]

1. Enjoyability might be the only thing that matters to you. I think good movie elements, such as believable characters, plots that hold together and good special effects contribute to making a movie enjoyable, or even more enjoyable. And that discussing and thinking about such elements can be productive.


2. Nope. As I just stated, I can respect reasonable disagreements, especially on subjective matters. But BLACK PANTHER, is, imo, an extreme example of a bad phenomenon. Movies and society would improve, if there was significant pushback to this.


3. Your inability to understand me is understandable. I am very different than most people you likely know. If you care to, try paying more attention. YOu might learn something.

1. Enjoyability is the only thing that matters to anyone, even you. You just said those things make the movie more enjoyable. Who gives a fuck if a movie is "well made" but not enjoyable to watch?

2. But you cannot, you cannot respect that I enjoyed the movie, you have to make it about something more. You have to turn me into a mindless drone because I enjoyed the movie, you have no respect for anyone that does not bow down and tell you how fucking amazing you are.

3. I understand you better than you understand yourself. You have a highly inflated view of yourself, you are neither complicated nor different, all you are doing is parroting the far right wing line.

1. Good movie elements, even if you are not aware of them, are generally a big part of how you get to enjoyability. Do you really want characters who are not believable, even the context of a fictional, comic book universe? Do you really never see a scene where a character does something, and you feel a clunk, and the bad writing drops you out of the story, and into, "ouch, that was not what that character would do"?


2. I can respect your enjoying it. We all have "guilty pleasures". I could even respect if you did not want to discuss the flaws of a movie that you love, because you are such a fanboy. And I do not use that term as a bad thing. But you choose to enter a thread that was obviously going to be about film critique. And I can certainly not respect any use of the Race Card. Anyone that does that, deserves to be called on it.


3. You understand nothing. Indeed, there is no "far right wing line", at least at this point in time. We are in flux. If you were unaware of that....