So we want to talk about individualism

[Dale Smith]

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

I am white and I never created racism nor have I ever pushed racism....so you are painting ALL whites with the same broad brush. I have had to work my ass off for everything I have ever gotten from the sweat of my brow under this debt this debt slavery system.

The truth is whites have been handed almost everything they have got. You white folks don't like that being said about you, but you sure are glad to put that on others. After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given low cost loans in the 50's by the government to buy homes, I am quite sure they worked hard to make the payments. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired because they were white worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees. I'm sure that white person who got that business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the opportunity while others couldn’t because of skin color.

I went to tech school and I had to pay for my education. I was in a class of 27 students and 5 of them were black and they had a 100 percent "free ride". I liked them and bonded with them and we studied together but as the classes got harder as we progressed? They dropped out....not just the black students but whites as well. My graduating class ended up with 8 students that graduated. What was the biggest difference was that the black students had nothing to lose financially while the white students did and were on the hook for the guaranteed government student loans.

I have PLENTY of hard working friends I have met over the years that are black, hispanic, oriental that got a good job based on their skills because that is what trumps all.....your bellyaching that minorities were not given a chance based on the tint of their skin has absolutely no merit at all.

Yeah right. And what kind of free rides were these blacks on? My statements have a 241 year record of American history supporting it at the minimum. That from 7-4-1776 until right now. Yours has zero supporting evidence.

You can continue to play the victim card or you can put your best foot forward and do the work and make the effort to better your situation....no one owes anyone anything.I did it the hard way and no one gave me a free pass at all.

 

[buttercup]

You can continue to play the victim card or you can put your best foot forward and do the work and make the effort to better your situation....

I agree, and I think that the promotion of that victim mentality is by design. It is a way for the PTSB to manipulate people and keep them down, which is very sad.

 

[IM2]

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

I am white and I never created racism nor have I ever pushed racism....so you are painting ALL whites with the same broad brush. I have had to work my ass off for everything I have ever gotten from the sweat of my brow under this debt this debt slavery system.

The truth is whites have been handed almost everything they have got. You white folks don't like that being said about you, but you sure are glad to put that on others. After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given low cost loans in the 50's by the government to buy homes, I am quite sure they worked hard to make the payments. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired because they were white worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees. I'm sure that white person who got that business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the opportunity while others couldn’t because of skin color.

I went to tech school and I had to pay for my education. I was in a class of 27 students and 5 of them were black and they had a 100 percent "free ride". I liked them and bonded with them and we studied together but as the classes got harder as we progressed? They dropped out....not just the black students but whites as well. My graduating class ended up with 8 students that graduated. What was the biggest difference was that the black students had nothing to lose financially while the white students did and were on the hook for the guaranteed government student loans.

I have PLENTY of hard working friends I have met over the years that are black, hispanic, oriental that got a good job based on their skills because that is what trumps all.....your bellyaching that minorities were not given a chance based on the tint of their skin has absolutely no merit at all.

Yeah right. And what kind of free rides were these blacks on? My statements have a 241 year record of American history supporting it at the minimum. That from 7-4-1776 until right now. Yours has zero supporting evidence.

You can continue to play the victim card or you can put your best foot forward and do the work and make the effort to better your situation....no one owes anyone anything.I did it the hard way and no one gave me a free pass at all.

I don't play any cards. My situation is good. Why do people like you assume that we are only complaining because we don't do the work?

My conclusions come after 32 years of professional work in sociology and social work. Oh, I've done the work ad then some. This narrative you have made up doesn't stand the scrutiny of history or even current public policy. You did not do everything the hard way, you did get opportunities a non white person did not get.

 

[IM2]

Since I am not being a racist then what you say doesn't apply. And here we have another null and void white racist asshole trying to talk about what King said.

I am opposed to racism so how am I a "racist asshole" for merely making the true point that responding to racism and bitterness with more of the same does not help matters? In fact who said I was white? You don't even know what race I am.

You say you are not being racist, but you start almost every post with "whites this" or "whites that" (showing that you don't judge people as individuals) and your posts are clearly bitter and angry. So I repeat, responding with bitterness, anger, or racism only brings further division and does not help matters. You also are going to be held back in life if you hold on to that angry, bitter mindset, and that is true whether you want to accept that or not.

Because no one is responding to racism with more racism. That's the first failure pf your statement. I can be angry if I want. You have got to be crazy if you think I should be happy or non committal about the continuing pattern of white racism that I see. And what creates more division is whites like you telling us how we should act. Given this is the race and racism section you should expect that a black person is going to start off a thread about white racism with the word white. And since you whites have never seen us as individual, don't ask for things you don't do yourself. Most of the time here I am responding to being called a nigga, a nignag, an ape or gorilla. If it's not t hat, I am told how I have a lower IQ than everybody white. If it's not that, then I am told that I need to stop producing children out of wedlock. If not that, I am being told how I am mooching off the white mans dime. None of these opinions recognize me for a individual who has paid taxes since he was 24, had one son while married, ended my college with a 4.0 year and a masters, that I have never been on public assistance and that I have worked various jobs from age 9 until I retired at 54. 45 yeas of being gainfully employed gets ignored by you bigots each time you tell me how ALL BLACKS don't want to work. If t's not that, I didn't work to get the jobs, I was handed them because of some fake ass version of Affirmative Action that doesn't exist you guys choose believe. So don't start that individual bs with me.

Racism is the belief your race is superior. Talking about having been under the thumb of white racism is not that. A racist is a person who believes they are better than someone because of their race. I have never said I was better, or smarter or anything else tan all whites just because I am back. But I have read whites here doing this.. Where were you then to talk to somebody about looking at people as individuals? Let me tell you. You didn't show up or say anything because that's not why you are speaking this rhetoric now. You and those like you come up with this mess only to blacks because you want to force us to shut up.

 

[flacaltenn]

13 posts deleted. warnings/thread bans. Race baiting is not tolerated. From either side. The TOPIC defines the discussion. The discussion is not baiting and taunting each other. If you don't STICK to the SPECIFIC topic -- you're violating Zone2 rules.

 

[buttercup]

Because no one is responding to racism with more racism. That's the first failure pf your statement. I can be angry if I want. You have got to be crazy if you think I should be happy or non committal about the continuing pattern of white racism that I see. And what creates more division is whites like you telling us how we should act. Given this is the race and racism section you should expect that a black person is going to start off a thread about white racism with the word white. And since you whites have never seen us as individual, don't ask for things you don't do yourself. Most of the time here I am responding to being called a nigga, a nignag, an ape or gorilla. If it's not t hat, I am told how I have a lower IQ than everybody white. If it's not that, then I am told that I need to stop producing children out of wedlock. If not that, I am being told how I am mooching off the white mans dime. None of these opinions recognize me for a individual who has paid taxes since he was 24, had one son while married, ended my college with a 4.0 year and a masters, that I have never been on public assistance and that I have worked various jobs from age 9 until I retired at 54. 45 yeas of being gainfully employed gets ignored by you bigots each time you tell me how ALL BLACKS don't want to work. If t's not that, I didn't work to get the jobs, I was handed them because of some fake ass version of Affirmative Action that doesn't exist you guys choose believe. So don't start that individual bs with me.


Racism is the belief your race is superior. Talking about having been under the thumb of white racism is not that. A racist is a person who believes they are better than someone because of their race. I have never said I was better, or smarter or anything else tan all whites just because I am back. But I have read whites here doing this.. Where were you then to talk to somebody about looking at people as individuals? Let me tell you. You didn't show up or say anything because that's not why you are speaking this rhetoric now. You and those like you come up with this mess only to blacks because you want to force us to shut up.

That is one definition of racism, but that was not what I had in mind in my posts. I was talking about an antagonism/dislike/prejudice toward an entire race… and having a fixation on race, instead of viewing people as individuals.

Secondly, I never said that you should be happy about injustice or that you should be noncommittal about racism. However, there are different ways to respond to it and fight it. I do not believe that living a life of anger, bitterness and an extremely negative attitude is going to help and it certainly is not going to end racism.

It's nearly impossible to even have a discussion with you on this topic because you are so angry, presumptuous and antagonistic. You don't even know me and you have accused me of all sorts of things including being a racist and a bigot, when in actuality I can't stand racism, no matter where it's coming from. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have never used the n-word and I never would. I believe that all people are equally valuable, and as a born-again Christian, I try to follow what Jesus said is the greatest command – love God and love others.

As for the bad things that you have experienced here, I do not support any of those things, so you're barking up the wrong tree and it is not fair to lump me in with others simply because you think I am white. You just finished saying that you don't like to be lumped in and pre-judged simply based on your race, so why do you do that to me and others? Do you not see how it works both ways?

And lastly, as for showing up and saying something, maybe you missed my previous post but I clearly stated that I was not here even though I signed up in 2010, I only recently started posting here. Please don't assume things and jump to conclusions. You don't like when people do that to you, so please don't do that to others. Thank you.

 

[flacaltenn]

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group.

The guy relating this story is an idiot tool. And he gets paid for being an idiot tool. Why am I so hard on him? Because most folks who have thought about racism clearly see that ONLY RACISTS AND BIGOTS use group identities to slander and race bait. Only racists and bigots smear ENTIRE groups at a time.

Makes it awfully damn hard to BE a racist dealing with only ONE PERSON at a time -- as an INDIVIDUAL -- rather than just stereotyping to the WHOLE group. Never talked to a radical racist that says "As an individual, you are inferior and you suck"

SO -- the currency of the realm of these pesky morons who are only getting paid by Chief Diversity Officer is "re-education". Bullying folks with their politically correct garbage about "only dominant groups can see their people as individuals" is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY one of the most racist ABSURD and STUPID things --- that I've ever heard.

And certainly in THIS case, individualism is more of a cure than politically motivated "group identities". You'll NEVER fix a thing about racism if you believe only in GROUP IDENTITIES rather than recognizing individuals. And ANY group is composed of a vast spectrum of personalities, abilities and talents. That's the irrefutable truth. You can BE an individual regardless of how the leftist classify you if "you're not in the dominant group". In fact -- if you don't want to BE a racist -- you should be an individual.

 

[IM2]

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group.

The guy relating this story is an idiot tool. And he gets paid for being an idiot tool. Why am I so hard on him? Because most folks who have thought about racism clearly see that ONLY RACISTS AND BIGOTS use group identities to slander and race bait. Only racists and bigots smear ENTIRE groups at a time.

Makes it awfully damn hard to BE a racist dealing with only ONE PERSON at a time -- as an INDIVIDUAL -- rather than just stereotyping to the WHOLE group. Never talked to a radical racist that says "As an individual, you are inferior and you suck"

SO -- the currency of the realm of these pesky morons who are only getting paid by Chief Diversity Officer is "re-education". Bullying folks with their politically correct garbage about "only dominant groups can see their people as individuals" is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY one of the most racist ABSURD and STUPID things --- that I've ever heard.

And certainly in THIS case, individualism is more of a cure than politically motivated "group identities". You'll NEVER fix a thing about racism if you believe only in GROUP IDENTITIES rather than recognizing individuals. And ANY group is composed of a vast spectrum of personalities, abilities and talents. That's the irrefutable truth. You can BE an individual regardless of how the leftist classify you if "you're not in the dominant group". In fact -- if you don't want to BE a racist -- you should be an individual.

I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. Laws were made and those laws did inhibit the rights of groups of people to the benefit of another group. They still are. So it's a little disingenuous especially coming from the group that established this way of doing things to be talking about looking at people as individuals when they have had 241 years to do so, never have and are only using this to maintain a system where they never will have to. This pretense is transparent especially when it is only applied to people of color when they are talking about how they have been done by the system of white racism in this country.

You haven't thought about racism. Not really. You see the term leftist is a group term, but here we see you talking about how you cannot think of group identities. This is where you consistently fail in trying this line of garbage.

 

[flacaltenn]

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group.

The guy relating this story is an idiot tool. And he gets paid for being an idiot tool. Why am I so hard on him? Because most folks who have thought about racism clearly see that ONLY RACISTS AND BIGOTS use group identities to slander and race bait. Only racists and bigots smear ENTIRE groups at a time.

Makes it awfully damn hard to BE a racist dealing with only ONE PERSON at a time -- as an INDIVIDUAL -- rather than just stereotyping to the WHOLE group. Never talked to a radical racist that says "As an individual, you are inferior and you suck"

SO -- the currency of the realm of these pesky morons who are only getting paid by Chief Diversity Officer is "re-education". Bullying folks with their politically correct garbage about "only dominant groups can see their people as individuals" is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY one of the most racist ABSURD and STUPID things --- that I've ever heard.

And certainly in THIS case, individualism is more of a cure than politically motivated "group identities". You'll NEVER fix a thing about racism if you believe only in GROUP IDENTITIES rather than recognizing individuals. And ANY group is composed of a vast spectrum of personalities, abilities and talents. That's the irrefutable truth. You can BE an individual regardless of how the leftist classify you if "you're not in the dominant group". In fact -- if you don't want to BE a racist -- you should be an individual.

I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. Laws were made and those laws did inhibit the rights of groups of people to the benefit of another group. They still are. So it's a little disingenuous especially coming from the group that established this way of doing things to be talking about looking at people as individuals when they have had 241 years to do so, never have and are only using this to maintain a system where they never will have to. This pretense is transparent especially when it is only applied to people of color when they are talking about how they have been done by the system of white racism in this country.

You haven't thought about racism. Not really. You see the term leftist is a group term, but here we see you talking about how you cannot think of group identities. This is where you consistently fail in trying this line of garbage.

What your idiot tool said is that YOU can't be an individual because you're not "in the dominant group". The process of ending institutional LEGAL bias has made extraordinary progress. So less and less group identification is necessary. And in fact PROMOTES racism. DUHHH....

Live the free life. Bust an individual identity. You are NOT defined by skin color --- ARE YOU? Who are the people defined by skin color? They are RACISTS. Group identification feeds that racism. Seeing folks as individuals defuses that.

If that's how you relate to the world and biggest selling point of who you are --- then MAYBE you should consider being a diversity trainer like the useless tool in your OP..

Only racists do that. And please don't tell me what I've thought through or not. Let's just discuss your OP..

 

[flacaltenn]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

In the last pages of "Separate Pasts, Growing Up White in the Segregated South," Melton McLaurin shares his visit with an older Black gentleman he had known while growing up.

He asked him about how Wade's white folks liked Black men serving on the town council. "There are some who aren't happy with the situation, but they can't do nothing about it. For the most part, we get along. There's people of my race I don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that you don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that I'd rather be with than some of my race. But the racism is still there."

He pauses a beat in his response, glancing away, as if searching for just the right words to capture the way in which race and racism continue to impact the community. He faces me again and speaks slowly, forcefully, the words coming from deep within him. "It's in you, and it's in me, and that's the truth, down there inside us. That's just the way it it."

I get in the car and am filled with a deep, sorrowful anger. It does not diminish as I drive from Wade to Wilmington to continue to struggle with the difficult necessity of confronting our separate pasts."

I believe that since individuals form communities, those individuals must come together to honestly confront and deal with the racism that has been so ingrained in us. As Margaret Mead said,
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”

I was cheering this tale on right on up to point where we find that some little remnant of racism festers inside all of us. That's a generalization that just devalues the tale. And it conflates racism with "confronting our separate pasts".. Well guess what -- LARGE fractions of either race didn't play a role in that past. Not the Caribbean blacks or the 20th century Euro immigrants for example. So stuff the "coming together as a community" deal if it's all about one big group harping on the other big group about history that is shared and causing the "It's in you" problem. THAT confrontation just FUELS racial divides. Which is of course what SOME folks get paid to do and go to college to be proficient at.

You want to UNWIND racism on BOTH sides? Meet some folks from the other side. Have a dialogue. Find out the long list of things that REALLY defines them. LOSE this racist concept of stereotyping by group... Which is all that happens when only "our separate pasts" are discussed.

For crying out loud -- fly free. LOSE the "my skin color defines me" and smell the 21st century.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

Dear IM2
Individualism can go both ways.
The best way I know to stop racism is to hold individuals accountable
for their own beliefs, and quit justifying collective generalizations passed on by others!

The key strategy taught by Dialogue:Racism facilitators with
the Center for the Healing of Racism is to
respect each person's right to their own feelings and
represent their own experiences. And NOT to "see people
as REPRESENTING an ENTIRE group"

So this application of individualism HELPS to break through
the racial conditioning, where people associate groups
with people and start blaming the actions of one person
on another just because they are affiliated and 'seen as representing that group.'

SEE: http://www.houstonprogressive.org

GUIDELINES FOR SHARING

• We have come together to try to learn about the disease of racism and promote a healing process.

• Sharing is voluntary.

• We want to create a safe, loving and respectful atmosphere.

• Sharing is about one's own feelings, experiences, perceptions, etc.

• We are not always going to agree or see everything the same way and that's O.K.

• Each person has a right to and responsibility for his or her own feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.

• It is important to avoid criticism or judgement about another person's sharing, point of view, and/or feelings.

• Avoid getting tied up in debate and argument. It rarely changes anything or anyone and tends to ultimately inhibit the sharing.

• We can only change ourselves. Our change and growth may, however, inspire someone else.

• Refrain from singling out any individual as "representing" his or her group or issue.

• It is important to give full attention to whomever is talking.

• Feelings are important.

• We will surely make mistakes in our efforts, but mistakes are occasions for learning and forgiving.

• We may laugh and cry together, share pain, joy, fear, or anger.

• Hopefully we will leave these meetings with a deeper understanding and a renewed hope for the future of humanity.

 

[IM2]

Because no one is responding to racism with more racism. That's the first failure pf your statement. I can be angry if I want. You have got to be crazy if you think I should be happy or non committal about the continuing pattern of white racism that I see. And what creates more division is whites like you telling us how we should act. Given this is the race and racism section you should expect that a black person is going to start off a thread about white racism with the word white. And since you whites have never seen us as individual, don't ask for things you don't do yourself. Most of the time here I am responding to being called a nigga, a nignag, an ape or gorilla. If it's not t hat, I am told how I have a lower IQ than everybody white. If it's not that, then I am told that I need to stop producing children out of wedlock. If not that, I am being told how I am mooching off the white mans dime. None of these opinions recognize me for a individual who has paid taxes since he was 24, had one son while married, ended my college with a 4.0 year and a masters, that I have never been on public assistance and that I have worked various jobs from age 9 until I retired at 54. 45 yeas of being gainfully employed gets ignored by you bigots each time you tell me how ALL BLACKS don't want to work. If t's not that, I didn't work to get the jobs, I was handed them because of some fake ass version of Affirmative Action that doesn't exist you guys choose believe. So don't start that individual bs with me.


Racism is the belief your race is superior. Talking about having been under the thumb of white racism is not that. A racist is a person who believes they are better than someone because of their race. I have never said I was better, or smarter or anything else tan all whites just because I am back. But I have read whites here doing this.. Where were you then to talk to somebody about looking at people as individuals? Let me tell you. You didn't show up or say anything because that's not why you are speaking this rhetoric now. You and those like you come up with this mess only to blacks because you want to force us to shut up.

That is one definition of racism, but that was not what I had in mind in my posts. I was talking about an antagonism/dislike/prejudice toward an entire race… and having a fixation on race, instead of viewing people as individuals.

Secondly, I never said that you should be happy about injustice or that you should be noncommittal about racism. However, there are different ways to respond to it and fight it. I do not believe that living a life of anger, bitterness and an extremely negative attitude is going to help and it certainly is not going to end racism.

It's nearly impossible to even have a discussion with you on this topic because you are so angry, presumptuous and antagonistic. You don't even know me and you have accused me of all sorts of things including being a racist and a bigot, when in actuality I can't stand racism, no matter where it's coming from. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I have never used the n-word and I never would. I believe that all people are equally valuable, and as a born-again Christian, I try to follow what Jesus said is the greatest command – love God and love others.

As for the bad things that you have experienced here, I do not support any of those things, so you're barking up the wrong tree and it is not fair to lump me in with others simply because you think I am white. You just finished saying that you don't like to be lumped in and pre-judged simply based on your race, so why do you do that to me and others? Do you not see how it works both ways?

And lastly, as for showing up and saying something, maybe you missed my previous post but I clearly stated that I was not here even though I signed up in 2010, I only recently started posting here. Please don't assume things and jump to conclusions. You don't like when people do that to you, so please don't do that to others. Thank you.

Well your opinion of racism is not racism. I don't live a life of anger but I am not going to be told how I should react to the 56 years I have seen continuing white racism happen in this nation. Blacks have talked nice to whites for most pf American history and it seems that instead of listening whites figure out news ways to practice the same racism. Third, I am talking far beyond here. I am talking about a 241 year history of white racism in this nation that you have benefited from no matter how you don't what to believe it. You showed up recently and you have spoken, this is what I am talking about.. You've come here read the posts and decided to try lecturing only me about looking at people as individuals. I do that but the reality of American law and policy shows that this country has not practiced that and the laws and policies were enacted by whites. So if you don't like that, maybe you can find a time machine and go back to the constitutional convention and make them correct things in it that made groups less than a full human being. That made it legal for groups to be considered not human but property.

However if you took that time machine you'd be gone for a log time trying to correct the laws so that individuals were respected more than groups/

We are in the race and racism section ad I get real tired of whites who start crying about some kind of racism when blacks start telling how we feel about how we have been treated by whites both as individuals and as a group by white individuals and whites as a group. If we were in he health care section I could understand the complaining, but this is a section on race and racism, we do have a legitimate beef with whites and maybe instead of trying to tell us how we should speak that maybe whites no matter whether or not they are racists should listen.

Last, just as much as O don't know you h, you have assumed things about me hat are way off base and untrue. Where I live, I am known for fair treatment of all regardless of race, sex, sexual orientate etc. That's my record. I have worked t help all manner of people impacted by poverty and HIV/AIDS. And I have at same time advocated against city governments for racist practices which were being done that we got changed. Not in the 1950's but in recent years. I am also known to stand up to racists and racism in no uncertain terms So you might want to understand why I say that you are talking meritless trash when you take the positon you do on me. I'm speaking the truth. And if you don't like it, well all I can say is that it never should have happened.

 

[IM2]

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group.

The guy relating this story is an idiot tool. And he gets paid for being an idiot tool. Why am I so hard on him? Because most folks who have thought about racism clearly see that ONLY RACISTS AND BIGOTS use group identities to slander and race bait. Only racists and bigots smear ENTIRE groups at a time.

Makes it awfully damn hard to BE a racist dealing with only ONE PERSON at a time -- as an INDIVIDUAL -- rather than just stereotyping to the WHOLE group. Never talked to a radical racist that says "As an individual, you are inferior and you suck"

SO -- the currency of the realm of these pesky morons who are only getting paid by Chief Diversity Officer is "re-education". Bullying folks with their politically correct garbage about "only dominant groups can see their people as individuals" is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY one of the most racist ABSURD and STUPID things --- that I've ever heard.

And certainly in THIS case, individualism is more of a cure than politically motivated "group identities". You'll NEVER fix a thing about racism if you believe only in GROUP IDENTITIES rather than recognizing individuals. And ANY group is composed of a vast spectrum of personalities, abilities and talents. That's the irrefutable truth. You can BE an individual regardless of how the leftist classify you if "you're not in the dominant group". In fact -- if you don't want to BE a racist -- you should be an individual.

I'm sorry but this is a load of crap. Laws were made and those laws did inhibit the rights of groups of people to the benefit of another group. They still are. So it's a little disingenuous especially coming from the group that established this way of doing things to be talking about looking at people as individuals when they have had 241 years to do so, never have and are only using this to maintain a system where they never will have to. This pretense is transparent especially when it is only applied to people of color when they are talking about how they have been done by the system of white racism in this country.

You haven't thought about racism. Not really. You see the term leftist is a group term, but here we see you talking about how you cannot think of group identities. This is where you consistently fail in trying this line of garbage.

What your idiot tool said is that YOU can't be an individual because you're not "in the dominant group". The process of ending institutional LEGAL bias has made extraordinary progress. So less and less group identification is necessary. And in fact PROMOTES racism. DUHHH....

Live the free life. Bust an individual identity. You are NOT defined by skin color --- ARE YOU? Who are the people defined by skin color? They are RACISTS. Group identification feeds that racism. Seeing folks as individuals defuses that.

If that's how you relate to the world and biggest selling point of who you are --- then MAYBE you should consider being a diversity trainer like the useless tool in your OP..

Only racists do that. And please don't tell me what I've thought through or not. Let's just discuss your OP..

We are discussing my OP and you have not thought. You are here posting garbage flacaltenn..

Of you want to discuss the OP, then read the study. .

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Antiracist Education

Google it, then read it. I'm tired of arguing with you based upon your unlearned opinion of things like this. Because you don't even understand how this person came to this conclusion, you don't know what hey studied t determine this but you dismiss is summarily because of an ignorant belief in individualism that denies every factor that involves individual differences. So read the study. Learn about Discourse theory and the 8 dynamics your belief in individualism denies or ignores.

Institutional bias is not gone nor have we made he strides you conservatives believe. I know this because I've studied these issues for 32 years. You haven't.

But I won't be holding my breath expecting you to read the study. What I do expect is an excuse as to why you can't.

 

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

In the last pages of "Separate Pasts, Growing Up White in the Segregated South," Melton McLaurin shares his visit with an older Black gentleman he had known while growing up.

He asked him about how Wade's white folks liked Black men serving on the town council. "There are some who aren't happy with the situation, but they can't do nothing about it. For the most part, we get along. There's people of my race I don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that you don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that I'd rather be with than some of my race. But the racism is still there."

He pauses a beat in his response, glancing away, as if searching for just the right words to capture the way in which race and racism continue to impact the community. He faces me again and speaks slowly, forcefully, the words coming from deep within him. "It's in you, and it's in me, and that's the truth, down there inside us. That's just the way it it."

I get in the car and am filled with a deep, sorrowful anger. It does not diminish as I drive from Wade to Wilmington to continue to struggle with the difficult necessity of confronting our separate pasts."

I believe that since individuals form communities, those individuals must come together to honestly confront and deal with the racism that has been so ingrained in us. As Margaret Mead said,
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”

I was cheering this tale on right on up to point where we find that some little remnant of racism festers inside all of us. That's a generalization that just devalues the tale. And it conflates racism with "confronting our separate pasts".. Well guess what -- LARGE fractions of either race didn't play a role in that past. Not the Caribbean blacks or the 20th century Euro immigrants for example. So stuff the "coming together as a community" deal if it's all about one big group harping on the other big group about history that is shared and causing the "It's in you" problem. THAT confrontation just FUELS racial divides. Which is of course what SOME folks get paid to do and go to college to be proficient at.

You want to UNWIND racism on BOTH sides? Meet some folks from the other side. Have a dialogue. Find out the long list of things that REALLY defines them. LOSE this racist concept of stereotyping by group... Which is all that happens when only "our separate pasts" are discussed.

For crying out loud -- fly free. LOSE the "my skin color defines me" and smell the 21st century.

Been there do that every day. Read the study and learn why what you are saying just misses the entre point. Because racism doesn't exist in all of us. rejudice might, but not racism. Delores is right. You are not.

 

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

Dear IM2
Individualism can go both ways.
The best way I know to stop racism is to hold individuals accountable
for their own beliefs, and quit justifying collective generalizations passed on by others!

The key strategy taught by Dialogue:Racism facilitators with
the Center for the Healing of Racism is to
respect each person's right to their own feelings and
represent their own experiences. And NOT to "see people
as REPRESENTING an ENTIRE group"

So this application of individualism HELPS to break through
the racial conditioning, where people associate groups
with people and start blaming the actions of one person
on another just because they are affiliated and 'seen as representing that group.'

SEE: http://www.houstonprogressive.org

GUIDELINES FOR SHARING

• We have come together to try to learn about the disease of racism and promote a healing process.

• Sharing is voluntary.

• We want to create a safe, loving and respectful atmosphere.

• Sharing is about one's own feelings, experiences, perceptions, etc.

• We are not always going to agree or see everything the same way and that's O.K.

• Each person has a right to and responsibility for his or her own feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.

• It is important to avoid criticism or judgement about another person's sharing, point of view, and/or feelings.

• Avoid getting tied up in debate and argument. It rarely changes anything or anyone and tends to ultimately inhibit the sharing.

• We can only change ourselves. Our change and growth may, however, inspire someone else.

• Refrain from singling out any individual as "representing" his or her group or issue.

• It is important to give full attention to whomever is talking.

• Feelings are important.

• We will surely make mistakes in our efforts, but mistakes are occasions for learning and forgiving.

• We may laugh and cry together, share pain, joy, fear, or anger.

• Hopefully we will leave these meetings with a deeper understanding and a renewed hope for the future of humanity.

Maybe you read the study too. The laws and policies that have been made were/are made to primarily benefit one group. All the individuals in that group had/have rights/opportunities others did/do not have regardless of whether or not they agree with them.. Until this is understood, stopped and the damage created by these things is fixed completely, this talk which is done primarily by white conservatives cannot be recognized as having any validity. Racism is not just going to disappear because people stop saying they are black or white. End trying this ruse folks

From the Cambridge dictionary:

Ruse-a trick intended to deceive someone:

 

[emilynghiem]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

????
IM2
The white colonialists, imperialist and slave traders
may have established the slave trade and laws
that caused the genocide and damage to Africans
and their descendants (as well as the genocide
against Native Americans still seeking healing and restoration today as well)

But no, racism and tribalism started with human nature
and our collective "pack mentality" and pecking order.

The Native Americans will tell you their culture went through
tribal wars, slavery, genocides of tribe against tribe
LONG BEFORE the "white man" started this chapter in the saga
affecting all humanity. It goes in cycles until we learn
and break this cycle of war oppression and tribal bullying to dominate for power.

The same healing that it took Native Americans
to get over their wars and slavery and live in peace,
we all have to go through regardless of what cultural or personal experience
we share in this universal process.

This is about all of humanity, and no one group
is any more or less to blame. All groups have their
strong points and positive contributions to the whole of humanity,
and all have their faults and destruction they go through as well.

When you see the bigger picture IM2
it's like a huge overlapping and complex Symphony
where every section has a special part to play.
And we all have to learn to play our parts IN TUNE,
at the right timing, and in Harmony with others.

If there is a problem, we have to correct it.
That goes with everyone and every group.
We are all in this together and that's how we are going to overcome
the fear and unforgiveness for past injustice
that otherwise obstructs our ability to work together
toward solutions and create that perfect Symphony we are designed for.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

In the last pages of "Separate Pasts, Growing Up White in the Segregated South," Melton McLaurin shares his visit with an older Black gentleman he had known while growing up.

He asked him about how Wade's white folks liked Black men serving on the town council. "There are some who aren't happy with the situation, but they can't do nothing about it. For the most part, we get along. There's people of my race I don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that you don't want nothing to do with. And there's people of your race that I'd rather be with than some of my race. But the racism is still there."

He pauses a beat in his response, glancing away, as if searching for just the right words to capture the way in which race and racism continue to impact the community. He faces me again and speaks slowly, forcefully, the words coming from deep within him. "It's in you, and it's in me, and that's the truth, down there inside us. That's just the way it it."

I get in the car and am filled with a deep, sorrowful anger. It does not diminish as I drive from Wade to Wilmington to continue to struggle with the difficult necessity of confronting our separate pasts."

I believe that since individuals form communities, those individuals must come together to honestly confront and deal with the racism that has been so ingrained in us. As Margaret Mead said,
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.”

I was cheering this tale on right on up to point where we find that some little remnant of racism festers inside all of us. That's a generalization that just devalues the tale. And it conflates racism with "confronting our separate pasts".. Well guess what -- LARGE fractions of either race didn't play a role in that past. Not the Caribbean blacks or the 20th century Euro immigrants for example. So stuff the "coming together as a community" deal if it's all about one big group harping on the other big group about history that is shared and causing the "It's in you" problem. THAT confrontation just FUELS racial divides. Which is of course what SOME folks get paid to do and go to college to be proficient at.

You want to UNWIND racism on BOTH sides? Meet some folks from the other side. Have a dialogue. Find out the long list of things that REALLY defines them. LOSE this racist concept of stereotyping by group... Which is all that happens when only "our separate pasts" are discussed.

For crying out loud -- fly free. LOSE the "my skin color defines me" and smell the 21st century.

Been there do that every day. Read the study and learn why what you are saying just misses the entre point. Because racism doesn't exist in all of us. rejudice might, but not racism. Delores is right. You are not.

So let's address PREJUDICE then IM2
so that covers both racial prejudice, religions, political, economic or educational class etc.
That would be more fair, and address/solve all such
biases regardless. Can we agree to address
the problem with projecting prejudice in general?
And cover ALL cases?

Then from THAT context we could focus on
racial injustice and genocide. But from the
perspective of everyone having their own
biases and prejudices when we look at that case or any other.

This way we don't fall into the trap of blaming (or appearing to blame) any
one person or group more or less than any other,
but SHARE responsibility mutually for FIXING what is wrong
REGARDLESS who we might hold at fault for one factor or another.

isn't that a more stable inclusive approach
so we can communicate and collaborate better?

 

[emilynghiem]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

Dear IM2
Individualism can go both ways.
The best way I know to stop racism is to hold individuals accountable
for their own beliefs, and quit justifying collective generalizations passed on by others!

The key strategy taught by Dialogue:Racism facilitators with
the Center for the Healing of Racism is to
respect each person's right to their own feelings and
represent their own experiences. And NOT to "see people
as REPRESENTING an ENTIRE group"

So this application of individualism HELPS to break through
the racial conditioning, where people associate groups
with people and start blaming the actions of one person
on another just because they are affiliated and 'seen as representing that group.'

SEE: http://www.houstonprogressive.org

GUIDELINES FOR SHARING

• We have come together to try to learn about the disease of racism and promote a healing process.

• Sharing is voluntary.

• We want to create a safe, loving and respectful atmosphere.

• Sharing is about one's own feelings, experiences, perceptions, etc.

• We are not always going to agree or see everything the same way and that's O.K.

• Each person has a right to and responsibility for his or her own feelings, thoughts, and beliefs.

• It is important to avoid criticism or judgement about another person's sharing, point of view, and/or feelings.

• Avoid getting tied up in debate and argument. It rarely changes anything or anyone and tends to ultimately inhibit the sharing.

• We can only change ourselves. Our change and growth may, however, inspire someone else.

• Refrain from singling out any individual as "representing" his or her group or issue.

• It is important to give full attention to whomever is talking.

• Feelings are important.

• We will surely make mistakes in our efforts, but mistakes are occasions for learning and forgiving.

• We may laugh and cry together, share pain, joy, fear, or anger.

• Hopefully we will leave these meetings with a deeper understanding and a renewed hope for the future of humanity.

Maybe you read the study too. The laws and policies that have been made were/are made to primarily benefit one group. All the individuals in that group had/have rights/opportunities others did/do not have regardless of whether or not they agree with them.. Until this is understood, stopped and the damage created by these things is fixed completely, this talk which is done primarily by white conservatives cannot be recognized as having any validity. Racism is not just going to disappear because people stop saying they are black or white. End trying this ruse folks

From the Cambridge dictionary:

Ruse-a trick intended to deceive someone:

Dear IM2
Actually there may be a step before even that can be understood and discussed.
And it's called forgiveness.

Sometimes the degree of forgiveness has to come first
BEFORE the understanding can even be received. It tends to be proportional:
so the MORE we can forgive the MORE understanding can be realized.

That's the common factor I've found in healing and recovery
from abuse, racism, addiction, crime, any number of wrongs and injustices that cause injury and wounds to be carried from the past into present and future generations.

What therapists have found is that forgiveness
allows people to open and RECEIVE help to recover and make corrections.
Including UNDERSTANDING what went wrong, why and how to fix it.

And unforgiveness tends to block this process.

Ability to recover and take positive steps correlates with
forgiveness and taking the approach of being a 'hero' overcoming
setbacks, instead of focusing on being a "victim" of the misactions of others.

So we need to learn from this and be careful
not to focus so much on victimhood and blame
that we obstruct the very understanding and healing process
we are seeking to resolve the damages and debts incurred by wrongdoing.

That forgiveness is a key step and makes all the difference
in reconciling and reaching understanding with others.

 

[usmbguest5318]

<<<...Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups....>>>

Your entire premise is based on the assumption that looking past skin color and viewing each person as an individual is a "barrier" to seeing Racism. Like nearly all of the academics I have encountered over the years, you are determined to believe a certain conclusion and then you will use all of your considerable education and data measuring prowess to "prove" you are right.

The truth is usually simple IM2. Your position is very complex and difficult to defend or understand. Instead of assuming White people are being stubborn when you present your case against Individualism, perhaps it is because your position is flawed.

I don't think my position is flawed. Not every white person holds this view of individualism. Primarily white conservatives with racist tendencies seem to be the one argue about how we are individuals and only when it pertains to the mention of white racism. This argument does not come up when we discuss crime, illegitimacy, single parent families, IQ's, education, work ethic or anything else.

If you believe that it is primarily racist white conservatives who argue we are all individuals, you need to get out and meet more people. I know people of every age and race who believe people should always be viewed and treated as a unique individual. Racism exists in some people, and doesn't exist in other people. Institutional racism used to be prevalent 100 or even 50 years ago. Today it is nearly non-existent.

I've met plenty of people. And I say what I do because that is what I have seen And I've seen pretty much all 50 states and most major cities, The major flaw in your thinking is that white people aren't being looked at as individuals. They are, but as individuals still whites have benefitted from a system that is based on white racial preference. And like I have said, I don't see whites saying that only some blacks commit crimes. or that there are some black unwed mothers, so until that is consistently done by whites no one wants to be lectured by someone white about seeing whites as individuals. Institutional racism is still plenty prevalent. You don't get to post make believe like its true.

This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem
By Mia Mercado
Mar 15 2017

The roots of racism run deep. They permeate our culture beyond the existence of racial slurs and persist regardless of our first black president. To see examples of systemic racism, you don’t even need to look far. If you have gone to school, lived in a house, had a job, or been to the doctor, you’ve likely been hurt or helped by institutional racism at some point in your life.

Institutional racism, or systemic racism, is defined as the pattern of social and political systems discriminating against a group of people based on race. If you’re wondering how a school or a bank or any “thing” or “system” can be racist, ask yourself who runs those “things” and “systems.” A government or any other institution is created and run by human beings. While a building or a document cannot itself hold prejudice or beliefs (on account of...they’re made of bricks and/or paper), human beings are more than capable of holding prejudicial beliefs, and in turn, creating systems that reflect those beliefs.

My “But slavery was abolished and hate crimes are illegal” senses are tingling; this is usually the part in the conversation where laws established or struck down are used as examples of why institutional racism can’t exist. If Equal Employment Opportunity Laws make it federally illegal, how can job discrimination based on race persist? Oh, sweet, naive, hypothetical question. Making something illegal doesn’t make it go away. If that were the case, murders would never happen and even if they did, they would all be solved and the victim brought justice. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unsolved murders still very much exist. Like, there are whole basic cable channels dedicated to them.

Institution racism is real. Systemic bias exists. Here are just seven examples of how our systems treat people of color differently — and how it shows that institutional racism is still a very real problem.

This Is Proof That Institutional Racism Is Still Very Much A Problem

This is an article written 8 months ago. I don't think institutional racism ended in the past 8 months. Some of us need to quit lying to ourselves about this and others need to quit calling people who tell the truth about how such things exist racists. So you look throughout our history, whites have always been looked at as individuals. Whites have been the ones with the problem recognizing the individuality of others. This argument about individualism is bogus because that is not the intent of the argument. The current argument is used to try forcing others to shut up about the consistent racism that is in our society today.

OT:
Why are the links "buried?" I wouldn't have known they were there but for moving my mouse across the screen to scroll and noticing a piece of text "blink."

For readers who may be interested, take the matter seriously, and are willing to read the linked content, here are the hyperlinked passages:

examples of systemic racism

systemic racism, is defined

On Topic:
From the linked essay:

"Where you live can decide everything from how safe you are, to what food you eat, to the quality of your health care to the quality of your job, to the quality of your children's education."​

Thinking about and responding to that assertion, I have the following to say:

"Where you live can decide..."

• "How safe you are" --> I don't by this at all. Oneself and the other people where one lives determine how safe one is.
  • If one lives on the American West Coast in Seattle, Portland, or anywhere else between the ocean and the mountains, one is not safe from earthquakes and/or tidal waves. That aspect of one's safety, of course, has nothing to do with racism.
  • If one lives in [insert whatever high-violence locale suits you], one's safety is certainly premised, in part, on the predisposition of the people in that area to violently exacting their will on others. No matter why ne'er do wells do so to some of their peers, the fact remains that their doing so is a choice, not a foregone conclusion. And, no, I'm not denying that poverty and violence are correlated; they are. I'm saying that I do not accept that poverty is a cause of violence.
• "What food you eat" --> This is probably true to some extent. It certainly is for me. When I just don't feel like cooking, I'm going to walk over to Connecticut Ave and pick a place to grab something to eat. Doing so, I am presented with a wide variety of choices and price points. Were the only very convenient choices available to me fast food options, I probably would either only go out to eat at places somewhat farther from my home or cook all my meals.
  
  There is, however, the matter of what one prioritizes. Is it one's priority to eat healthily or to eat conveniently? Eating healthily and conveniently (i.e., purchasing one's meals) takes a certain level of wealth. That said, even folks who, to eat, depend wholly on food stamps receive (at least up to and including 2017) enough to eat well/healthily, though perhaps not if they insist on prioritizing convenience over food quality.
• "The quality of your health care" --> I'm okay with this part of the assertion.
• "The quality of your job" --> I don't understand how where one lives, provided one lives in a metropolitan area, affects the quality of one's job. There certainly are people who live in somewhat remote areas and have very fine jobs; however, those people generally don't work where they live, the exception being people who can exclusively work from home/remotely.
• "The quality of your children's education" --> Insofar as most children attend schools in their own neighborhood (more or less), I agree to some extent; however, as with the safety assertion discussed above, the quality of one's schooling has a lot to do with the people associated with the school one attends, most importantly the students and their parents.
  
  A teacher's job is to deliver information, make it comprehensible and to a small extent motivate students to learn; it's a parent's "job" to motivate the student, help their kids learn, and supplement the teacher's efforts; it's always and solely the student's job to learn the material. The best teacher in the world cannot make a student learn if the student doesn't do the work necessary to do so.
  
  Yes, there are, at times, gaps in the modernity of facilities and, at times, the efficacy of them, and, no, I don't think there should be material gaps of that nature. That said, I doubt many jurisdictions have the resources to continually upgrade every school the "instant" a new facility resource is invented or imagined. Jurisdictions cycle upgrades to schools as best they can, but they can't do every school every X-many years, and because they cannot, some schools will be "old school" for a time.
  
  Also, I don't think facilities themselves have a whole lot to do with what student can be taught in most key subjects, science being a notable exception. After all, Newton and Leibniz invented calculus with far fewer resources than are made available in any U.S. school. Shakespeare had no ballpoint or felt pens and paper was nowhere near as inexpensive or available as it is today. Thomas Jefferson managed to read some 6,000 books, none of which were cheap to buy, yet today many a school library, the Internet and/or public library has the same content available for free. Quite simply, learning and becoming learned does not these days require a whole lot in the way of facilities, but it does require a good deal of will to learn

Having written the above, I feel it imperative to note that I am not at all denying the existence of systemic racism. As a lifelong friend of mine who is a real estate developer says, "The best thing for real estate values is white people." He doesn't say that with any emotion other than disgust. And he's right.

D.C. and the D.C. area has several upper middle and upper income areas populated almost entirely by black professionals and thriving-business owners, yet the assessed value, selling prices and rate of value increase in those areas do not keep pace with white areas that are substantively the same. Indeed, some newly constructed subdivisions in those areas are built by the same builders and are the exact same houses that are found in comparably populated but predominately white areas. In D.C. one sees the same phenomenon played out in the Crestwood to North Portal areas immediately east of Rock Creek Park and Forest HIlls to Hawthorne areas abutting the west side of the Park.

I can't see there being any reason for that pattern other than some sort of systematized or culturally inculcated discrimination. Both regions are very "suburban," even though they are in the city. Children in all of those areas will go to the same high school. Neither area has an abundance of "walk to it" stores, restaurants and other basic need businesses like grocers, drug stores, dry cleaners, and whatnot. Both regions sprung up as "streetcar" neighborhoods, that is, they were places where well paid workers in and related to the government built homes. The homeowners in those neighborhoods are all law abiding, "lots to lose" and high earning professionals and business owners. All that similarity, yet in the white neighborhoods I've cited, white homeowners enjoy better rates of equity growth. That they do cannot be explained by the body of material objective factors.

So while I take exception with the quality of the argument in the essay you shared, IM2, I acknowledge its key conclusions -- systemic discrimination still exists and something(s) must be done to markedly diminish or end it. The burden of doing those things falls on us all, not minorities alone and not whites alone. In doing so, members of each identity group are bid to do the things appropriate their group, realizing too that some actions are appropriate to members of every group.

 

[Natural Citizen]

This is one of the most divisive forums I've ever seen.

Absolutely. I have never in my life seen such dysfunction.