So we want to talk about individualism

[ptbw forever]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.

Your “system” has been debunked, dumbass.

You aren’t even intelligent enough to describe this hypothetical “system”.

No it has not been debunked and you have been described this system over and over and over in your lifetime.

You can’t have a “system” of white supremacy when both the media and academia are blatantly anti-white and desirous of the outright elimination of European identity.

If you actually understood what a “system” entailed you would know this.

 

[Dale Smith]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

 

[Natural Citizen]

After all fool, liberal is a collective...

Here. Learn, dummy. 'Liberalism' has become one of the most widely misused words in the American political lexicon.

That's why I say you are a fucking fake.

No, dummy. I'm a real liberal. Something you clearly know nothing about.

 

[IM2]

It's funny how whites want to talk about individualism when white racism is shown to them. So let's do it.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education

This is an article by Robin DeAngelo just so the trolls don't start whining.

In my years as a white person co-facilitating anti-racism courses for primarily white audiences in a range of academic, corporate, and government institutions across the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom, I have come to believe that the Discourse of Individualism is one of the primary barriers preventing well-meaning (and other) white people from understanding racism. Individualism is such a deeply entrenched discourse that it is virtually immovable without sustained effort. A recent interaction may illustrate the depth of this narrative.

I was co-facilitating a mandatory workplace training titled Race & Social Justice. Two key components of this training are my presentation, as a white person, on the dynamics of white privilege, and my co-facilitator's presentation, as a person of color, on the dynamics of internalized racial oppression. Included in my presentation is a list of common barriers for whites in seeing racism. One of these barriers is that we see ourselves as individuals, outside of social groups. I had just finished presenting this list and had called for a break, during which a white woman, “Sue,” who had been sitting next to a white man, “Bill,” approached me
and declared, “Bill and I think we should all just see each other as individuals.”

Although in my work moments like this occur frequently, they continue to disorient me on two interconnected levels. First, I had just stated that seeing each other as individuals was a perspective only available to the dominant group. Yet Sue's statement implied I had never heard or considered this most simple and popular of “solutions” to racism, much less just raised and critiqued it. I was left wondering, yet again, what happens cognitively for many whites in forums such as this that prevents them from actually hearing what is being presented. Second, why did she, as a white person, feel confident to declare the one-sentence
“answer” to a profoundly complex and perennial dilemma of social life? Why not consider my background in the field and instead engage me in a dialogue on the matter, or ask me to explain my point in more depth? I did my best to reiterate my previous position, but to no avail. By the afternoon break, Sue had walked out.

So what was Sue and Bill's point? In my experience, when white people insist on Individualism in discussions about racism, they are in essence saying: My race has not made a difference in my life, so why do we have to talk about race as if it mattered? It is talking about race as if it mattered that divides us. I don't see myself as a member of a racial group; you shouldn't see me that way either. In fact, by saying that my group membership matters, you are generalizing. Generalizing discounts my individuality; unless you know me, you can't profess to know anything about my life and all of the ways I am unique relative to any one else. Further, as an individual I am objective and view others as individuals and not as members of racial groups. For example if I were hiring I would hire the best person for the job no matter what their race
was. Racism will disappear when we all see each other as individuals. In fact, it has disappeared because I already see everyone as individuals—it's just misguided people such as yourself who refuse to see everyone as an individual and thus keep racism alive.

Obviously I disagree with these familiar dominant claims, as they stand in the face of all evidence to the contrary, both research-based evidence of racial discrimination and disparity on every measure (see Copeland, 2005; Hochschild & Weaver, 2007; Micceri, 2009; Wessel, 2005) and visible evidence of ongoing patterns of segregation in education, economics, and housing.

Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse of Individualism in Anti-racist Education - eScholarship

The argument of individualism is bogus and it's time that is recognized,.

The author states that seeing each other as individuals is a perspective only available to the dominant group. I wonder what that is based on, and why the author seems to think that "Sue" and "Bill" should have accepted it as true?

I'm also wondering if the author thinks that people should be looking at others as members of a group rather than as individuals? Is that actually being promoted by this article?

I don't see why one cannot believe that it is better to view people as individuals, yet also see and accept that racism exists.

People are viewed as individuals but when we talk about white racism we are talking about a system that has benefitted individuals of a specific group.

Your “system” has been debunked, dumbass.

You aren’t even intelligent enough to describe this hypothetical “system”.

No it has not been debunked and you have been described this system over and over and over in your lifetime.

You can’t have a “system” of white supremacy when both the media and academia are blatantly anti-white and desirous of the outright elimination of European identity.

If you actually understood what a “system” entailed you would know this.

If your system actually existed you'd have a point.

 

[IM2]

After all fool, liberal is a collective...

Here. Learn, dummy. 'Liberalism' has become one of the most widely misused words in the American political lexicon.

That's why I say you are a fucking fake.

No, dummy. I'm a real liberal. Something you clearly know nothing about.

I know plenty about real liberals. You are claiming classic liberalism which is much closer to what we see as conservatism now. You see, the problem who you is at since this nation never recognized the individuality of all the people living here your argument just has no merit. If this nation had really practiced what you imagined and suddenly we all are complaining about our group, you say would make sense. But since that's not how it's been, you sound like a loony tune.

 

[Montrovant]

Come on down 'round heanh. I'll meet you in West Tampa, ok?

In the projects, I'll tell you where. We'll see if you get past the Jits n stuff.

We'll have pulled pork n greens and all that.

Maybe you won't, you'll probly just ride out, k?

Tampa? That's in the south, but it's not in the South.

 

[IM2]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

 

[Dale Smith]

This dude's a moron. And a racist.

Bye. lol.

I'm the moron you can't out debate.

You can't "out debate" me......not on the best day you ever had in your life.......

 

[IM2]

Come on down 'round heanh. I'll meet you in West Tampa, ok?

In the projects, I'll tell you where. We'll see if you get past the Jits n stuff.

We'll have pulled pork n greens and all that.

Maybe you won't, you'll probly just ride out, k?

I'll be just fine in the projects there. I'll end up doing better than you and you say you live there.

 

[Dale Smith]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

 

[IM2]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

 

[buttercup]

I hate seeing all this divisiveness around here. I totally agree with the person who said that we've been seeing a lot of 'divide and conquer' going on.

 

[Dale Smith]

I only have control over my actions and I am the one responsible for them. I see people, not color. What I have seen is liberals using the race card to divide people from coming together. The communist/socialist movement of the 1930's targeted the black population and it has been going on ever since while the elite class pushes this division. Minorities that don't accept to be under the "big tent" of the fabian socialists are subjected to the most vile and insulting racist spew.

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

I am white and I never created racism nor have I ever pushed racism....so you are painting ALL whites with the same broad brush. I have had to work my ass off for everything I have ever gotten from the sweat of my brow under this debt this debt slavery system.

 

[IM2]

This is bull. You want to now blame communism, instead of understanding that backs did not like how they were treated by whites as individuals and as a group.

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

I am white and I never created racism nor have I ever pushed racism....so you are painting ALL whites with the same broad brush. I have had to work my ass off for everything I have ever gotten from the sweat of my brow under this debt this debt slavery system.

The truth is whites have been handed almost everything they have got. You white folks don't like that being said about you, but you sure are glad to put that on others. After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given low cost loans in the 50's by the government to buy homes, I am quite sure they worked hard to make the payments. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired because they were white worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees. I'm sure that white person who got that business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the opportunity while others couldn’t because of skin color.

 

[IM2]

I hate seeing all this divisiveness around here. I totally agree with the person who said that we've been seeing a lot of 'divide and conquer' going on.

What divisiveness have you seen? Because no one started talking about divisiveness until blacks started to fight back against he racism whites post here.

 

[buttercup]

What divisiveness have you seen? Because no one started talking about divisiveness until blacks started to fight back against he racism whites post here.

This is one of the most divisive forums I've ever seen. Left versus right, Republican versus Democrat, atheist versus believer, etc. etc. I don't know about the race threads you're talking about, because I only started posting here recently (even though I signed up back in 2010) but pointing the finger and saying "he started it first!" seems a bit childish, don't you think?

Even if what you said is true, do two wrongs make a right? How is being racist as a response to racism going to help matters or bring unity? All it does is further the division and bitterness. That's basically what MLK said… Do you agree with MLK Jr?

 

[Dale Smith]

No, it's a 100 percent fact. I know of what I speak....we are all debt slaves on this plantation where our labor was pledged as surety against a debt that we do not owe. Communism is the perfect system that the elites want because they will control it.

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

I am white and I never created racism nor have I ever pushed racism....so you are painting ALL whites with the same broad brush. I have had to work my ass off for everything I have ever gotten from the sweat of my brow under this debt this debt slavery system.

The truth is whites have been handed almost everything they have got. You white folks don't like that being said about you, but you sure are glad to put that on others. After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given low cost loans in the 50's by the government to buy homes, I am quite sure they worked hard to make the payments. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired because they were white worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees. I'm sure that white person who got that business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the opportunity while others couldn’t because of skin color.

I went to tech school and I had to pay for my education. I was in a class of 27 students and 5 of them were black and they had a 100 percent "free ride". I liked them and bonded with them and we studied together but as the classes got harder as we progressed? They dropped out....not just the black students but whites as well. My graduating class ended up with 8 students that graduated. What was the biggest difference was that the black students had nothing to lose financially while the white students did and were on the hook for the guaranteed government student loans.

I have PLENTY of hard working friends I have met over the years that are black, hispanic, oriental that got a good job based on their skills because that is what trumps all.....your bellyaching that minorities were not given a chance based on the tint of their skin has absolutely no merit at all.

 

[IM2]

What divisiveness have you seen? Because no one started talking about divisiveness until blacks started to fight back against he racism whites post here.

This is one of the most divisive forums I've ever seen. Left versus right, Republican versus Democrat, atheist versus believer, etc. etc. I don't know about the race threads you're talking about, because I only started posting here recently (even though I signed up back in 2010) but pointing the finger and saying "he started it first!" seems a bit childish, don't you think?

Even if what you said is true, do two wrongs make a right? How is being racist as a response to racism going to help matters or bring unity? All it does is further the division and bitterness. That's basically what MLK said… Do you agree with MLK Jr?

Since I am not being a racist then what you say doesn't apply. And here we have another null and void white racist asshole trying to talk about what King said.

King said this:



And this:

Martin Luther King Jr.: "My dream has turned into a nightmare"

 

[IM2]

No, it's bull. But you are free to believe whatever you want in this country. Unless you believe that white racism still continues then we have to hear all the crazy.

Racism and the other divides used to keep us at odds with each other is a well developed plan called "divide and conquer".

Whites created this, never fixed the damage caused by it, continue doing it and you act like it's a problem on both sides.

I am white and I never created racism nor have I ever pushed racism....so you are painting ALL whites with the same broad brush. I have had to work my ass off for everything I have ever gotten from the sweat of my brow under this debt this debt slavery system.

The truth is whites have been handed almost everything they have got. You white folks don't like that being said about you, but you sure are glad to put that on others. After whites were given land as part of the Homestead Act, I am sure they worked very hard to farm that land. After whites were given low cost loans in the 50's by the government to buy homes, I am quite sure they worked hard to make the payments. While blacks could not get certain jobs because of their race, I'm sure whites who were hired because they were white worked hard to remain employed. I'm sure that the whites who got admitted into colleges that did not allow blacks worked hard to get those degrees. I'm sure that white person who got that business loan blacks were denied only because of race, worked hard to make sure that business was successful.

The issue is not how hard whites worked after they got the opportunity. It is the fact they got the opportunity while others couldn’t because of skin color.

I went to tech school and I had to pay for my education. I was in a class of 27 students and 5 of them were black and they had a 100 percent "free ride". I liked them and bonded with them and we studied together but as the classes got harder as we progressed? They dropped out....not just the black students but whites as well. My graduating class ended up with 8 students that graduated. What was the biggest difference was that the black students had nothing to lose financially while the white students did and were on the hook for the guaranteed government student loans.

I have PLENTY of hard working friends I have met over the years that are black, hispanic, oriental that got a good job based on their skills because that is what trumps all.....your bellyaching that minorities were not given a chance based on the tint of their skin has absolutely no merit at all.

Yeah right. And what kind of free rides were these blacks on? My statements have a 241 year record of American history supporting it at the minimum. That from 7-4-1776 until right now. Yours has zero supporting evidence.

 

[buttercup]

Since I am not being a racist then what you say doesn't apply. And here we have another null and void white racist asshole trying to talk about what King said.

I am opposed to racism so how am I a "racist asshole" for merely making the true point that responding to racism and bitterness with more of the same does not help matters? In fact who said I was white? You don't even know what race I am.

You say you are not being racist, but you start almost every post with "whites this" or "whites that" (showing that you don't judge people as individuals) and your posts are clearly bitter and angry. So I repeat, responding with bitterness, anger, or racism only brings further division and does not help matters. You also are going to be held back in life if you hold on to that angry, bitter mindset, and that is true whether you want to accept that or not.