Social Sec will stay solvent for 20 years... *IF* we pay off 1/3 of the National Debt

[Oddball]

Social Security is the largest holder of U.S. debt ($2.67 trillion) - followed by U.S. Federal Reserve, China, savings bonds & other investors, Japan, pension funds, mutual funds, state and local governments, depository institutions, insurance companies, Brazil, Caribbean banking centers, Taiwan...

The Biggest Holders of US Government Debt

IOW, it's fucking broke.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It might still be solvent if you increase the retirement age and lower benefits, but it will still provide negative returns. But even this idea has trouble working.

Social Security is sustained by nothing more than the Government's ability to tax the hell out of people.

It has worked for 75 years and will work for another 75 with some minor adjustments

All good things eventually come to an end, for better or for worse. But I'm sure it can work for an extended period of time if the public is willing to allow the Government to rob citizens of their wealth.

Taxation approved by the leges of We the People is not robbery.

If you don't like it, get a coalition to overturn it. Good luck.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Social Security will be solvent if we raise the retirement age to 70 for those under 40

It might still be solvent if you increase the retirement age and lower benefits, but it will still provide negative returns. But even this idea has trouble working.

Social Security is sustained by nothing more than the Government's ability to tax the hell out of people.

It's a Ponzi Scheme in which the relatively better off elderly mug the relatively poorer young.

That is not an accurate statement, but give us the hard facts and definitions that can prove your assertion. If not, we can accept you don't like it.

 

[AmazonTania]

It has worked for 75 years and will work for another 75 with some minor adjustments

All good things eventually come to an end, for better or for worse. But I'm sure it can work for an extended period of time if the public is willing to allow the Government to rob citizens of their wealth.

Taxation approved by the leges of We the People is not robbery.

If you don't like it, get a coalition to overturn it. Good luck.

So you vote to increase taxes on yourselves so you can pay off retirees?

Hm, let me know how that works out.

 

[Lakhota]

In addition to Social Security ($2.67 trillion), how does the U.S. pay off its other debt holders - such as the U.S. Federal Reserve ($1.659 trillion), China ($1.169 trillion), savings bonds & other investors ($1.102 trillion), Japan ($1.083 trillion), pension funds ($903.4 billion), mutual funds ($797.9 billion), state and local governments ($444.6 billion), depository institutions, insurance companies, Brazil, Caribbean banking centers, Taiwan...?

 

[JakeStarkey]

All good things eventually come to an end, for better or for worse. But I'm sure it can work for an extended period of time if the public is willing to allow the Government to rob citizens of their wealth.

Taxation approved by the leges of We the People is not robbery.

If you don't like it, get a coalition to overturn it. Good luck.

So you vote to increase taxes on yourselves so you can pay off retirees?

Hm, let me know how that works out.

I did not say that and you can't infer it from what I said, which was taxation is the right of We the People and is not robbery or theft.

You must show, which you can't, that minor fixes can't fix the issue.

Good luck with that.

 

[Oddball]

In addition to Social Security ($2.67 trillion), how does the U.S. pay off its other debt holders - such as the U.S. Federal Reserve ($1.659 trillion), China ($1.169 trillion), savings bonds & other investors ($1.102 trillion), Japan ($1.083 trillion), pension funds ($903.4 billion), mutual funds ($797.9 billion), state and local governments ($444.6 billion), depository institutions, insurance companies, Brazil, Caribbean banking centers, Taiwan...?

They don't...They either default or try to inflate their way out of the mess that they created, which has never worked before.

Sucker.

 

[lynn63]

Social security is not broke, it has run surpluses since its birth. The problem is our government takes those surpluses and spends it. In exchange for the cash, the government issues government securities that can be redeemed by the social security administration if for any given year there is more money being paid out to beneficiaries then what is taken in by payroll taxes and interest earned.
As of 2011 the government owes social security trust fund 2.7 trillion and this is applied as “intra government debt” which is a component of the public or national debt. This debt increased by 69 billion from 2010 to 2011 which means social security is still running a surplus.
Total revenue from social security payroll taxes for 2011 exceeded 1 trillion dollars which that money is allocated to “on budget” and “off budget” which “off” is spent to pay beneficiaries. In 2011, 158 million people paid into social security and there were 55 million beneficiaries paid in the total amount of 725 billion.
The reason why they are nervous about social security is largely due to the fact that there are less workers paying in and more baby boomers that are retiring. Its not that there isn’t enough to pay out, the problem is the government is no longer getting triple digit surpluses to spend on whatever they want.

 

[thereisnospoon]

The OP is basically bullshit. I would suggest you link to Social Security instead of Treasury - and also do some research on what a real Ponzi scheme is.

Social Security Trust Fund Data

A Venn Diagram for Rick Perry: Social Security Is Not a Ponzi Scheme | Mother Jones

The Biggest Holders of US Government Debt

Hey genius, Social Security has NO MONEY.
The system needs to be blown up and redone.
The problem is an overwhelming number of people believe SS to be an entitlement.
The scream "don't you dare touch my social security!!!!!"...
The fact is these people could not care less about SS, where the money comes from or anything else for that matter, as long as THEIR check comes to them. Self centered bastards that they are. And incredibly stupid to believe the government is not "touching"their precious social security.

 

[Oddball]

Social security is not broke, it has run surpluses since its birth. The problem is our government takes those surpluses and spends it. In exchange for the cash, the government issues government securities that can be redeemed by the social security administration if for any given year there is more money being paid out to beneficiaries then what is taken in by payroll taxes and interest earned.
As of 2011 the government owes social security trust fund 2.7 trillion and this is applied as “intra government debt” which is a component of the public or national debt. This debt increased by 69 billion from 2010 to 2011 which means social security is still running a surplus.
Total revenue from social security payroll taxes for 2011 exceeded 1 trillion dollars which that money is allocated to “on budget” and “off budget” which “off” is spent to pay beneficiaries. In 2011, 158 million people paid into social security and there were 55 million beneficiaries paid in the total amount of 725 billion.
The reason why they are nervous about social security is largely due to the fact that there are less workers paying in and more baby boomers that are retiring. Its not that there isn’t enough to pay out, the problem is the government is no longer getting triple digit surpluses to spend on whatever they want.

Oh, look!...It's Cleopatra!

 

[Lakhota]

The OP is basically bullshit. I would suggest you link to Social Security instead of Treasury - and also do some research on what a real Ponzi scheme is.

Social Security Trust Fund Data

A Venn Diagram for Rick Perry: Social Security Is Not a Ponzi Scheme | Mother Jones

The Biggest Holders of US Government Debt

Hey genius, Social Security has NO MONEY.
The system needs to be blown up and redone.
The problem is an overwhelming number of people believe SS to be an entitlement.
The scream "don't you dare touch my social security!!!!!"...
The fact is these people could not care less about SS, where the money comes from or anything else for that matter, as long as THEIR check comes to them. Self centered bastards that they are. And incredibly stupid to believe the government is not "touching"their precious social security.

Who pays into Social Security...and why? The government does not pay into Social Security. For those who may think (or pretend to think) that U.S. government securities are a bad/risky investment - please don't tell the large countries and institutions that hold trillions of U.S. debt.

 

[g5000]

Social Security IOUs do not add up to $4.7 trillion, as claimed in the OP. They add up to $2.7 trillion. The balance of the $4.7 trillion is other intergovernmental debt.


You can't borrow, or steal, money from Social Security to the tune of trillions of dollars unless Social Security is running a surplus. And that is exactly what Social Security has been doing. It receives more in payroll taxes than it pays out each year.

However, the tables turned sometime around the year 2009. Then SS began taking in less than it is paying out as most of the baby boomer egg passing through the snake began retiring and collecting instead of paying in.

If all the money that had been borrowed from SS was still there, SS could remain solvent well past the period when it becomes upside down.

But since that money isn't there, it will be insolvent much sooner.



I agree we should raise the retirement age. We are living decades longer than our ancestors, and it is completely ridiculous we are retiring at the same age they did.

If we retire just five years later than the current SS and Medicare eligibility ages, we will be paying into the system five years longer and drawing out five years less.

 

[flacaltenn]

So the question remains:

With benefits from Social Security's so-called "Trust Fund" dependent on paying off part of the National Debt, has anyone heard of any plans by Fed Govt officials, to pay off any ofthe National Debt at all?

You're OP is a little behind the times. Social Security went INSOLVENT in 2010 because instead of stealing from the surplus (which no longer existed) Obama invented stealing from the premiums so that he could look like Robin Hood. THe projections of insolvency in 2017 (as GS5000 noted) came 7 yrs EARLY because of a bad economy and Obama's stealing of the FICA income.

There IS NOTHING of value in the Trust Fund to cover an insolvency like in 2010 --- so it came RIGHT OUT of the general fund which had to issue NEW debt obligations to cover it..

The time to forestall a debt crisis with Social Security ended when the Surplus all got plundered from the pockets of working Americans. That surplus SHOULD HAVE BEEN USED to defray FUTURE obligations by letting folks like me opt out of a portion of my "entitlement" in exchange for a fraction of my premium. Could have generated nearly a 0.5TRILL$ when it was proposed in 2002 or 2003..

NOW -- we're gonna have to BORROW money FASTER to get thru the crisis.
Paying down the debt would only be a marginal help right now because you'll never get to a surplus in the general fund to cover SS guarantees. It will only lower the amount of money WASTED on paying debt interest..

 

[thereisnospoon]

The OP is basically bullshit. I would suggest you link to Social Security instead of Treasury - and also do some research on what a real Ponzi scheme is.

Social Security Trust Fund Data

A Venn Diagram for Rick Perry: Social Security Is Not a Ponzi Scheme | Mother Jones

The Biggest Holders of US Government Debt

So much wrong with this graph, it's basically based on ignorance.

1. Who a business or venture is operated by doesn't make a Ponzi Scheme any less of a Ponzi Scheme.
   
2. Ponzi Schemes and Social Security generally tell their participants where their investments are coming from. Very few people invest their money blindly, even if they are not aware they're investing in a Ponzi Scheme. Most investors want to know what type of investments they are getting into. Investor sentiments can be a crucial factor when it comes to the increase or decrease of certain investments.
   
3. In the eyes of the law, if your business model operates like a ponzi scheme, you can and will be convicted for running a ponzi scheme. This has happened numerous times throughout history where legitimate business models were taken down because of this. Mark Drucker is a good example of how this can happen to anyone who is running a legitimate business.
   
4. All Ponzi Schemes are different in the sense that they are unique relative to it's size.The US Bond Market paid into by investors all over the world. The European Kings Club had almost 100,000 investors. Ron Rewald ran a firm with only 400 investors. The way the US Bond Market/Treasury is currently run, it doesn't make it any less of a ponzi scheme than The European Kings Club. Also The European Kings Club isn't any less of a Ponzi Scheme than Ron Rewald's hedge fund. It doesn't make Social Security any less of a Ponzi Scheme than Bernie Madoff's Derivatives/Options Fund.
5. Who Ponzi Schemes/Pension funds are managed by is irrelevant.
   
6. Ponzi Schemes and Social Security both offers negative returns to their investors.
   
7. Ponzi Schemes do have general investments. Some Ponzi Schemes ran models where the investments were made into US Securities. This part is erroneous just as the rest of the points of this graph.
   
8. Both Ponzi Schemes and Social Security can be tweaked, expanded or cut. It all depends on how the both investment schemes run. Bernie Madoff has been running his Ponzi Scheme since the 1970's. He didn't accomplish this from just mere luck.
   
9. Some Ponzi Schemes have operated for decades. Again, Bernie Madoff is a great example of this. The point is, all Ponzi Schemes generally fail. Social Security has ran deficits 8 years earlier than previously forecast. If my hedge fund had this sort of accounting error, it would be brought up on charges regarding securities fraud.
   
10. They're both Ponzi schemes.
    

You make a good point with that. SSI isn't a damn Ponzi scheme but what the people want.

Considering that both of you don't really understand the sophistication of how Ponzi Schemes have generally run, Social Security has generally run the exact same way Ponzi Schemes have run. It has a physical effect on the economy, as well as an emotional effect.

They both operates under fails pretenses, they both invest in real capital, it offers negative returns for investors and runs the classic model of what a Ponzi Scheme is. Many have justifiably been accused of running a ponzi scheme and participants of that scheme have testified on behalf of the schemer in vouching for the solvency, as well as credibility of the scheme. The same way politicians, economist and bureaucrats vouch on the solvency and credibility of Social Security. It robs people of much of their wealth, while the politicians and political connected industries profit at the expense of the poor and middle class.

It's a Ponzi Scheme.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Social Security did not run a 'deficit'. Social Security in the last 2 years paid its benefits out of payroll tax revenues plus a small amount of earned interest on its securities.

That is not running a deficit.

Hey genius, Social Security HAS NO MONEY. The federal government has been taking OUR money, replacing it with IOU's and using the funds for other things. Most of those items are wasteful pork barrel spending.
SS will not be able to pay off when the rush of baby boomers set to retire do just that.
Why are you libs so in bed with SS anyway?

 

[thereisnospoon]

So the question remains:

With benefits from Social Security's so-called "Trust Fund" dependent on paying off part of the National Debt, has anyone heard of any plans by Fed Govt officials, to pay off any ofthe National Debt at all?

It's not dependent on paying down the national debt.

1. Social Security takes in X amount of dollars per year in payroll tax.

2. Social Security earns Y amount of dollars per year in the form of interest on the bonds it sells to the Federal government.

3. Social Security pays out Z amount of dollars per year in benefits.

4. T is the Trust Fund, which equals all of SS's revenues collected that it did not have to pay out in benefits.

X plus Y equals SS's annual income. Z equals SS's annual spending.

As long as X is greater than Z, the federal government's general fund does not have to pay anything to Social Security.

As long as X plus Y is greater than Z, the federal government only need pay a portion of SS's earned interest.

In a prefect world where greedy politicians don't head for the cookie jar, you'd be correct.

 

[Lakhota]

Hey genius, Social Security HAS NO MONEY - except for government IOUs. The federal government has been taking OUR money, replacing it with IOU's and using the funds for other things. Most of those items are wasteful pork barrel spending.
SS will not be able to pay off when the rush of baby boomers set to retire do just that.
Why are you libs so in bed with SS anyway?

Yes, we get it that there is NO MONEY - except for government IOUs. We know it was transferred into the General Fund. We also get that Social Security holds what it is owed in U.S. debt - which also draws interest.

BTW, it isn't Social Security's fault that the funds were transferred into the General Fund.

 

[flacaltenn]

The OP is basically bullshit. I would suggest you link to Social Security instead of Treasury - and also do some research on what a real Ponzi scheme is.

Social Security Trust Fund Data

A Venn Diagram for Rick Perry: Social Security Is Not a Ponzi Scheme | Mother Jones

The Biggest Holders of US Government Debt

Hey genius, Social Security has NO MONEY.
The system needs to be blown up and redone.
The problem is an overwhelming number of people believe SS to be an entitlement.
The scream "don't you dare touch my social security!!!!!"...
The fact is these people could not care less about SS, where the money comes from or anything else for that matter, as long as THEIR check comes to them. Self centered bastards that they are. And incredibly stupid to believe the government is not "touching"their precious social security.

Who pays into Social Security...and why? The government does not pay into Social Security. For those who may think (or pretend to think) that U.S. government securities are a bad/risky investment - please don't tell the large countries and institutions that hold trillions of U.S. debt.

It's a MONUMENT LIE that the "trust fund" holds US treasury bonds.. The only thing in the drawer of the trust is a book with an accounting entry for an "interdepartmental transfer" of the stolen surplus and promise to repay.

At the end of every SS Admin yearly statement -- buried in the back pages you'll find something similiar to...... .

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/pdf/tr09summary.pdf

Social Security’s annual surpluses
of tax income over expenditures are expected to fall sharply this
year and to stay about constant in 2010 because of the economic recession,
and to rise only briefly before declining and turning to cash flow
deficits beginning in 2016 that grow as the baby-boom generation retires.


The combined difference grows each year, so that by 2016, net revenue
flows from the general fund would total $369 billion (1.8 percent of
GDP). The positive amounts that begin in 2016 for OASDI, and started in
2008 for HI, initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the
trust funds when assets are depleted to help pay benefits in years prior to
exhaustion of the funds. Neither the redemption of trust fund bonds, nor
interest paid on those bonds, provides any new net income to the Treasury,
which must finance redemptions and interest payments through
some combination of increased taxation, reductions in other government
spending, or additional borrowing from the public.

Or you can take the bad news from anyone of a number of CBO files..

CBO | Federal Debt and Interest Costs

Because those trust funds and other government accounts are part of the federal government, transactions between them and the Treasury are intragovernmental; that is, the government securities in those funds are an asset to the individual programs but a liability to the rest of the government. The resources needed to redeem the government securities in the trust funds and other accounts in some future year must be generated from taxes, income from other government sources, or borrowing by the government in that year.

About "being invested in US Treasury Bonds.. Not at all.. They are "special issue", non-saleable, non-transferable...... That is ---- an IOU...

Special-issue securities, Social Security trust funds

The Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Disability Insurance Trust Fund comprise the Social Security trust funds. Both funds are managed by the Department of the Treasury through their Bureau of Public Debt. Since the beginning of the Social Security program, all securities held by the trust funds have been issued by the Federal Government. There are two general types of such securities:

•Special issues—available only to the trust funds
•Public issues—marketable Treasury bonds available to the public.
The trust funds now hold only special issues, but they have held public issues in the past.

You have been ROBBED.. You are being LIED TO --- and now you are paying TWICE for the robbery..

 

[Lakhota]

By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury. Such securities are available only to the trust funds.

In the past, the trust funds have held marketable Treasury securities, which are available to the general public. Unlike marketable securities, special issues can be redeemed at any time at face value. Marketable securities are subject to the forces of the open market and may suffer a loss, or enjoy a gain, if sold before maturity. Investment in special issues gives the trust funds the same flexibility as holding cash.

Social Security Trust Fund Data - Frequently Asked Questions

 

[Oddball]

Hey genius, Social Security HAS NO MONEY - except for government IOUs. The federal government has been taking OUR money, replacing it with IOU's and using the funds for other things. Most of those items are wasteful pork barrel spending.
SS will not be able to pay off when the rush of baby boomers set to retire do just that.
Why are you libs so in bed with SS anyway?

Yes, we get it that there is NO MONEY - except for government IOUs. We know it was transferred into the General Fund. We also get that Social Security holds what it is owed in U.S. debt - which also draws interest.

BTW, it isn't Social Security's fault that the funds were transferred into the General Fund.

How the fuck does it draw interest?....The money isn't being used for productive purposes.

 

[Political Junky]

The right has always hated Social Security. Now they want to make a gift of it to Wall Street Bankers, in return for enormous contributions.