Socialism and the purpose of government

[dblack]

So, when it comes to the purpose of government, you're onboard with the socialists?

Pretty much everyone is on-board with their brand of socialism

Negative
Investing our tax dollars in our food source is like investing in infrastructure...Nobody sane sees it as socialism.

Paying farmers not to grow food is not an "investment." It's pork.

It actually is an investment...it's complicated though.
America has a "Cheap Food Policy", we want food to be affordable to the general population and not subject to huge swings in the market that might cause unrest within the GP. We need to make sure there is some profit to farming so farmers will keep farming. We need to have a sufficient supply and reserves in case of crop failure. No farmer will keep a reserve of crops stored for world or national emergencies or keep their own land idle so prices stay high enough that all farmers can make a living unless they are paid to do so. That is why we have programs like the CRP (Conservation Reserve Program) which pays farmers to keep 23.4 million acres idle but ready to go into production within 1 to 2 years if a world catastrophe occurs. This governmental involvement doesn't guarantee a profit for all farmers but it does keep a majority of farmers in business during hard times.
The federal government uses food to affect geopolitics so it has to have some safeguards for farmers if it instituted a policy that causes the price to go below production costs.

So, what you are saying is that the Fed government exerts control over what is produced by our farmers and ranchers, and that is a good thing?

It's a 'necessary thing'....it's a piece of the puzzle in sustaining a civilized first world society.
If we're going to collect taxes, have a treasury and spend taxpayer dollars what better investment is there?
It's fascinating that you Lefties can't make simple distinctions...you honestly believe that paying Guadalupe to run her baby factory and subsidizing farmers are one and the same.

The problem is, from a Constitutional perspective, they are the same. A government empowered to pay off farmers also has the power to pay Guadalupe to crank out kids. Just depends on who happens to be in power at the time.

 

[BrokeLoser]

The federal government uses food to affect geopolitics so it has to have some safeguards for farmers if it instituted a policy that causes the price to go below production costs.

So, what you are saying is that the Fed government exerts control over what is produced by our farmers and ranchers, and that is a good thing?

Yes. That's what he's saying. Trumpsters aren't libertarians. They adore authoritarian government.

Being intelligent enough to recognize that .GOV has a role to play in society does not equate to "adoring authoritarian government".
You megalomaniacs (Libertarians) refuse to wrap your head around the simplicity.

 

[alang1216]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The role of gov't is not merely to serve as a referee, it must also establish the rules of the game. In football, the referee is the cop & judge that enforces the rules that the NFL has established. The ref ensures that everyone plays by the same rules. In the business world, rules ensure products are safe and do what they claim and every business has an equal chance to compete.

 

[dblack]

The federal government uses food to affect geopolitics so it has to have some safeguards for farmers if it instituted a policy that causes the price to go below production costs.

So, what you are saying is that the Fed government exerts control over what is produced by our farmers and ranchers, and that is a good thing?

Yes. That's what he's saying. Trumpsters aren't libertarians. They adore authoritarian government.

Being intelligent enough to recognize that .GOV has a role to play in society does not equate to "adoring authoritarian government".
You megalomaniacs (Libertarians) refuse to wrap your head around the simplicity.

Libertarians are "megalomaniacs"???

BL brings the best BS.

 

[dblack]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The role of gov't is not merely to serve as a referee, it must also establish the rules of the game. In football, the referee is the cop & judge that enforces the rules that the NFL has established. The ref ensures that everyone plays by the same rules. In the business world, rules ensure products are safe and do what they claim and every business has an equal chance to compete.

Yeah. That's fine. But socialists want government to do a lot more. They want most major decisions in society and in the economy made by government.

 

[whitehall]

The Founding Fathers listed the purpose of government in two short sentences: "to provide for the common defense" and "to promote the general welfare". Notice they didn't say "to promote the common defense and provide for the general welfare".

 

[alang1216]

The role of gov't is not merely to serve as a referee, it must also establish the rules of the game. In football, the referee is the cop & judge that enforces the rules that the NFL has established. The ref ensures that everyone plays by the same rules. In the business world, rules ensure products are safe and do what they claim and every business has an equal chance to compete.

Yeah. That's fine. But socialists want government to do a lot more. They want most major decisions in society and in the economy made by government.

Aside from healthcare what major decisions do socialists want gov't to make?

 

[BrokeLoser]

The federal government uses food to affect geopolitics so it has to have some safeguards for farmers if it instituted a policy that causes the price to go below production costs.

So, what you are saying is that the Fed government exerts control over what is produced by our farmers and ranchers, and that is a good thing?

Yes. That's what he's saying. Trumpsters aren't libertarians. They adore authoritarian government.

Being intelligent enough to recognize that .GOV has a role to play in society does not equate to "adoring authoritarian government".
You megalomaniacs (Libertarians) refuse to wrap your head around the simplicity.

Libertarians are "megalomaniacs"???

BL brings the best BS.

Literally every single self proclaimed “Libertarian” I know is the smartest guy in the room, every room...just ask them. They are all way too smart for Christianity and way too smart for the political parties that actually play in the game and matter.

 

[bripat9643]

You're the one who doesn't know what anarchism is. There is no rule that says they are required to stand dumb and mute while the state pummels them into slavery. That's a theory propagated by bootlickers, not by people who understand anarchism.

Anarchy is the rejection of authority. You cannot reject that which you participate in.

But you are correct, they are not required to stand dumb and mute while the state pummels them into slavery. A true anarchist would fight back against the state, not help to perpetuate it.

An anarchist that bows to authority is an oxymoron.

I "participate" only in the same sense that the victim participates in a mugging. Elections are used to impose atrocities on me, so it's only reasonable for me to use whatever levers I have to prevent that.

Anarchists aren't against guns. They are against the people who use guns against innocent people. You're one of the assholes who delights in using guns against innocent people.

 

[bripat9643]

Government is a necessary evil. It's purpose is to grow itself, and grow its power. That's what it always comes down to.

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

 

[bripat9643]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The role of gov't is not merely to serve as a referee, it must also establish the rules of the game. In football, the referee is the cop & judge that enforces the rules that the NFL has established. The ref ensures that everyone plays by the same rules. In the business world, rules ensure products are safe and do what they claim and every business has an equal chance to compete.

Government always writes the rules to favor itself. When you are the referee and the author of the rules, then you are a tyrant.

 

[alang1216]

Government is a necessary evil. It's purpose is to grow itself, and grow its power. That's what it always comes down to.

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

Gov't is indeed necessary, that is why every society, no matter where or when, established a gov't to govern itself. It is human nature. The first thing that every committee, club, church, etc., does is establishes a leader and rules.

 

[alang1216]

Government always writes the rules to favor itself. When you are the referee and the author of the rules, then you are a tyrant.

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

 

[bripat9643]

Government is a necessary evil. It's purpose is to grow itself, and grow its power. That's what it always comes down to.

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

Gov't is indeed necessary, that is why every society, no matter where or when, established a gov't to govern itself. It is human nature. The first thing that every committee, club, church, etc., does is establishes a leader and rules.

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

 

[bripat9643]

Government always writes the rules to favor itself. When you are the referee and the author of the rules, then you are a tyrant.

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

That never happens. At most, we change a few scallywags at the top. The permanent bureaucracy remains. Simply observe what is going on now with the deep state coup against Trump to understand how naive your belief is. Government exists for the benefit of government and its favored minions. It doesn't exist to benefit the productive members of society.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

It's a 'necessary thing'....it's a piece of the puzzle in sustaining a civilized first world society.
If we're going to collect taxes, have a treasury and spend taxpayer dollars what better investment is there?
It's fascinating that you Lefties can't make simple distinctions...you honestly believe that paying Guadalupe to run her baby factory and subsidizing farmers are one and the same.

This may or may not come as a surprise to you, but I understand why the government does what it does and more or less agree with it. I did not till I started to work in the Ag industry, then I gained a better understanding of what would happen if the Feds were not doing this.

But all that does is support my statement that everyone has their "flavor of socialism" they support.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Government always writes the rules to favor itself. When you are the referee and the author of the rules, then you are a tyrant.

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

That never happens. At most, we change a few scallywags at the top. The permanent bureaucracy remains. Simply observe what is going on now with the deep state coup against Trump to understand how naive your belief is. Government exists for the benefit of government and its favored minions. It doesn't exist to benefit the productive members of society.

an actual anarchist would be happy about a coup against the top of the government authority.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

Every society in the civilized world that the Romans took over already had their own system of government. There is no society without some form of governing and rules.

You cannot name a single society that has ever existed that did not have some sort of governing rules.

 

[alang1216]

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

That never happens. At most, we change a few scallywags at the top. The permanent bureaucracy remains. Simply observe what is going on now with the deep state coup against Trump to understand how naive your belief is. Government exists for the benefit of government and its favored minions. It doesn't exist to benefit the productive members of society.

So the gov't we have today is the same as the gov't of the founding fathers? I think there have been some major changes over time.

 

[bripat9643]

It's a 'necessary thing'....it's a piece of the puzzle in sustaining a civilized first world society.
If we're going to collect taxes, have a treasury and spend taxpayer dollars what better investment is there?
It's fascinating that you Lefties can't make simple distinctions...you honestly believe that paying Guadalupe to run her baby factory and subsidizing farmers are one and the same.

This may or may not come as a surprise to you, but I understand why the government does what it does and more or less agree with it. I did not till I started to work in the Ag industry, then I gained a better understanding of what would happen if the Feds were not doing this.

But all that does is support my statement that everyone has their "flavor of socialism" they support.

What "this" are your referring to? Once again the so-called libertarian comes out in favor of subsidies and government regulation.