Socialism and the purpose of government

[bripat9643]

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

That never happens. At most, we change a few scallywags at the top. The permanent bureaucracy remains. Simply observe what is going on now with the deep state coup against Trump to understand how naive your belief is. Government exists for the benefit of government and its favored minions. It doesn't exist to benefit the productive members of society.

So the gov't we have today is the same as the gov't of the founding fathers? I think there have been some major changes over time.

The government the Founding Fathers setup turned into what we have today.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

What "this" are your referring to? Once again the so-called libertarian comes out in favor of subsidies and government regulation.

This is the government's actions to maintain a steady food supply at a steady price. This program does not interfere with my freedoms or impose restrictions upon me or anyone else.

But yeah, I do part with the libertarians on some issues, abortion being another one. I do not agree with any single view on every topic.

 

[alang1216]

Government is a necessary evil. It's purpose is to grow itself, and grow its power. That's what it always comes down to.

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

Gov't is indeed necessary, that is why every society, no matter where or when, established a gov't to govern itself. It is human nature. The first thing that every committee, club, church, etc., does is establishes a leader and rules.

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

When colonists first settled the US Wild West they established laws to rule themselves and judges and sheriffs to enforce them. If you wanted to keep your land or cattle from being taken by others you needed the protection only a gov't could provide.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

That never happens. At most, we change a few scallywags at the top. The permanent bureaucracy remains. Simply observe what is going on now with the deep state coup against Trump to understand how naive your belief is. Government exists for the benefit of government and its favored minions. It doesn't exist to benefit the productive members of society.

So the gov't we have today is the same as the gov't of the founding fathers? I think there have been some major changes over time.

The government the Founding Fathers setup turned into what we have today.

Because "we the people" voted for it...that includes you there buddy!

 

[Oddball]

It's a 'necessary thing'....it's a piece of the puzzle in sustaining a civilized first world society.
If we're going to collect taxes, have a treasury and spend taxpayer dollars what better investment is there?
It's fascinating that you Lefties can't make simple distinctions...you honestly believe that paying Guadalupe to run her baby factory and subsidizing farmers are one and the same.

This may or may not come as a surprise to you, but I understand why the government does what it does and more or less agree with it. I did not till I started to work in the Ag industry, then I gained a better understanding of what would happen if the Feds were not doing this.

But all that does is support my statement that everyone has their "flavor of socialism" they support.

What "this" are your referring to? Once again the so-called libertarian comes out in favor of subsidies and government regulation.

The freebooter state is just jake, as long as his handout shows up.

He's the most fake bootlicking "libertarian" that I've ever encountered.

 

[alang1216]

The government the Founding Fathers setup turned into what we have today.

Isn't that the opposite of tyranny, a gov't that changes/evolves?

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

Every society in the civilized world that the Romans took over already had their own system of government. There is no society without some form of governing and rules.

You cannot name a single society that has ever existed that did not have some sort of governing rules.

I already answered this argument. The Gauls had no formal government when Julius Ceaser conquered them. In fact, every society that has government got it by being conquered by a foreign invader. That goes all the way back to the lowland farmers who settled in Sumer. They aquired the infection we call "government" when wave after wave of nomadic tribes conquered them and settled in among them.

 

[Oddball]

Unless the gov't is subject to the will of the people and can be changed by them. We change our government every time we have an election.

That never happens. At most, we change a few scallywags at the top. The permanent bureaucracy remains. Simply observe what is going on now with the deep state coup against Trump to understand how naive your belief is. Government exists for the benefit of government and its favored minions. It doesn't exist to benefit the productive members of society.

So the gov't we have today is the same as the gov't of the founding fathers? I think there have been some major changes over time.

The government the Founding Fathers setup turned into what we have today.

Because "we the people" voted for it...that includes you there buddy!

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

It's a 'necessary thing'....it's a piece of the puzzle in sustaining a civilized first world society.
If we're going to collect taxes, have a treasury and spend taxpayer dollars what better investment is there?
It's fascinating that you Lefties can't make simple distinctions...you honestly believe that paying Guadalupe to run her baby factory and subsidizing farmers are one and the same.

This may or may not come as a surprise to you, but I understand why the government does what it does and more or less agree with it. I did not till I started to work in the Ag industry, then I gained a better understanding of what would happen if the Feds were not doing this.

But all that does is support my statement that everyone has their "flavor of socialism" they support.

What "this" are your referring to? Once again the so-called libertarian comes out in favor of subsidies and government regulation.

The freebooter state is just jake, as long as his handout shows up.

He's the most fake bootlicking "libertarian" that I've ever encountered.

This from the other 'anarchist" that worships the leader of the government!

 

[Harpy Eagle]

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

what the hell did what I say have to do with "might makes right"? are you drunk?

 

[bripat9643]

The government the Founding Fathers setup turned into what we have today.

Isn't that the opposite of tyranny, a gov't that changes/evolves?

So the Soviet Union wasn't a tyranny? It "evolved" from the democracy established after they threw off the monarchy. Governments seldom "evolve" in the direction of freedom and liberty. They almost always go in the other direction, like Venezuela.

 

[Oddball]

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

what the hell did what I say have to do with "might makes right"? are you drunk?

"We the people voted for it"...You said that shit...That implies that the biggest mob makes the decision, whether right or wrong, and the rest of us can just suck it.

I had you pegged long ago as a poorly closeted totalitarian, and now you've given everyone who cares to see it the proof.

 

[bripat9643]

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

what the hell did what I say have to do with "might makes right"? are you drunk?

That was your moral justification for our current government. You believe that mob rule justifies whatever the mob wants. However, the claim that Americans want the government we currently liver under is dubious, at best. Certainly, no libertarian would defend such a notion.

 

[bripat9643]

There ya go...Might makes right...The mindset of the mobocrat in full bloom.

what the hell did what I say have to do with "might makes right"? are you drunk?

"We the people voted for it"...You said that shit...That implies that the biggest mob makes the decision, whether right or wrong, and the rest of us can just suck it.

I had you pegged long ago as a poorly closeted totalitarian, and now you've given everyone who cares to see it the proof.

He's always defending the latest outrage by the left.

 

[Hum Dinger]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The Purpose of our Federal Government:

"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

Limited socialism can be justified as a method of establishing economic Justice, and promoting the general welfare. It can also be justified as securing Liberty, since capitalism leads to defacto slavery.

Any other dumb questions?

 

[Pilot1]

Government is a necessary evil. It's purpose is to grow itself, and grow its power. That's what it always comes down to.

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

Gov't is indeed necessary, that is why every society, no matter where or when, established a gov't to govern itself. It is human nature. The first thing that every committee, club, church, etc., does is establishes a leader and rules.

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

When colonists first settled the US Wild West they established laws to rule themselves and judges and sheriffs to enforce them. If you wanted to keep your land or cattle from being taken by others you needed the protection only a gov't could provide.

No you didn't need government as often territorial government did not exist yet. You needed guns and/or men with guns.

 

[bripat9643]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The Purpose of our Federal Government:

"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

Limited socialism can be justified as a method of establishing economic Justice, and promoting the general welfare. It can also be justified as securing Liberty, since capitalism leads to defacto slavery.

Any other dumb questions?

When you put a qualifier in front of the word "justice," it changes the meaning to "injustice."

Note, the Founding Fathers said "justice," not "economic justice."

The rest of your post is even more absurd.

 

[Oddball]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

The Purpose of our Federal Government:

"in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

Limited socialism can be justified as a method of establishing economic Justice, and promoting the general welfare. It can also be justified as securing Liberty, since capitalism leads to defacto slavery.

Any other dumb questions?

Pious POS...

 

[bripat9643]

Government is a necessary evil. It's purpose is to grow itself, and grow its power. That's what it always comes down to.

That's the cynic's view, and I get where you're coming from. But what is the justification for it? What makes it a "necessary" evil? What should society empower government to do? Should "both society and the economy be run democratically"?

Nothing makes government necessary. It was imposed on us by outsiders to enslave us. No one voluntary adopted government.

Gov't is indeed necessary, that is why every society, no matter where or when, established a gov't to govern itself. It is human nature. The first thing that every committee, club, church, etc., does is establishes a leader and rules.

Wrong. Government has always been imposed on society externally. The claim that every society needs government is like saying every dog needs fleas.

If you don't believe it, then consider the Roman Empire. Rome imposed its authority on every society in the civilized world. The government these people lived under was from an alien source. If you claim they had a government before Rome took over, that wasn't true of most of Western Europe. Furthermore, if they did have government before Roman rule, it was also imposed from an external source. You can go all the way back to ancient Sumer and observe that wave after wave Nomadic tribes invaded lowland farmers and settled in among their victims. That's how government came into existence, through conquest.

When colonists first settled the US Wild West they established laws to rule themselves and judges and sheriffs to enforce them. If you wanted to keep your land or cattle from being taken by others you needed the protection only a gov't could provide.

They already had government. All they brought it with them. The Indians lived there for thousands of years with no formal government. They had no means of enforcing laws other than social pressure.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I already answered this argument. The Gauls had no formal government when Julius Ceaser conquered them.

This is not true, the tribes each had a system with leaders, elders, some were large enough to have kings and others had chieftains. That is a system of government.

In fact, every society that has government got it by being conquered by a foreign invader. That goes all the way back to the lowland farmers who settled in Sumer. They aquired the infection we call "government" when wave after wave of nomadic tribes conquered them and settled in among them.

This is a logical impossibility, the foreign invader had a government it got from somewhere and eventually it could not have come from a previous foreign invader.

There is no society in history that does not have some form of governing, none