Stop trying to divide "Jews" from "Zionists."

[HistoryBefore67]

Its amazing how the pro-"Palestinians" will go on infinite tangents to avoid the truth.

The Jews have a connection to the land that goes back thousands of years.

"Palestinian," as a PLO official once ADMITTED, is a term created to combat Israel.

Thanks to all the proud Zionists who speak their minds on behalf of Israel.

 

[toastman]

??? - Did you not see this post before, PatCat? That 'analogy' is rooted in a falsehood - it cannot produce truthful results.

Proto-Zionists include the (Lithuanian) Vilna Gaon, (Russian) Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk, (Bosnian) Rabbi Judah Alkalai[9] (German) Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, and (British) Sir Moses Montefiore.[10] Other advocates of Jewish independence include (American) Mordecai Manuel Noah, (Russian) Leon Pinsker and (German) Moses Hess.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zionism as an organized political movement began in many places most prominant among them is Russia.
You need to be a little more expansive and clear how is the anology rooted in a falsehood, or is this just your way of dodging the question

I'm guessing you're also one of those people that believes in Jewish Bolshevism

 

[patrickcaturday]

That's such an extreme oversimplification nearly to the point of uselessness for any scientific purpose, Coyote. The *frequency* with which the Cohen gene appears is at least as important as its total presence/absence..... BUT since we're not discussing this on the 'scientfic' level, that oversimplification is somewhat useful.

As to the 'both are indigenous' - do you mean specifically to the area of the Mandate not including Jordan?

My apologies for being so 'nit-picky', but it makes me actually queasy to use such gross oversimplifications because of their inaccuracy: I've got the feeling we'll have to revisit this to correct something later. It's kind of like some folks might get 'ishy' about not balancing a checkbook closer than about $50.......

No, I mean to the broader area. People moved around a lot.

I think the whole idea of either side trying to claim an "indiginous" specialness is false. They've all got ancient roots and they all deserve to be there.

They just need to deal with it and with each other without creating fiction.

Since you mean 'to the broader area' - then the majority of Jewish Israeli are indeed 'indigenous' because they are Mizrachi or Sephardi. And the Askenazim re *also* 'indigenous' because they have genetic commonalities with the M & S Jews which non-Jewish populations in Eastern Europe do not possess.

I am REALLY REALLY tired of hearing the noise about 'Askenazim aren't real Jews' and such like: it does not have a factual (genetic) basis, and that should be the end of that part of the 'discussion'.

Lets take genetics out of this. You show a competent geneticist an individual he will be ably to identify that persons genotype, In the same example the genetist looking at the person would not be able to identify the phenotype. Jeudeism is a religion not an ethnic type

 

[patrickcaturday]

Proto-Zionists include the (Lithuanian) Vilna Gaon, (Russian) Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk, (Bosnian) Rabbi Judah Alkalai[9] (German) Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, and (British) Sir Moses Montefiore.[10] Other advocates of Jewish independence include (American) Mordecai Manuel Noah, (Russian) Leon Pinsker and (German) Moses Hess.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zionism as an organized political movement began in many places most prominant among them is Russia.
You need to be a little more expansive and clear how is the anology rooted in a falsehood, or is this just your way of dodging the question

I'm guessing you're also one of those people that believes in Jewish Bolshevism

It cannot be argued that Jews played a prominant role in the creation of Bolshevism but no I do not particularly beleive in Jewish Bolshevism.

 

[Coyote]

That's such an extreme oversimplification nearly to the point of uselessness for any scientific purpose, Coyote. The *frequency* with which the Cohen gene appears is at least as important as its total presence/absence..... BUT since we're not discussing this on the 'scientfic' level, that oversimplification is somewhat useful.

As to the 'both are indigenous' - do you mean specifically to the area of the Mandate not including Jordan?

My apologies for being so 'nit-picky', but it makes me actually queasy to use such gross oversimplifications because of their inaccuracy: I've got the feeling we'll have to revisit this to correct something later. It's kind of like some folks might get 'ishy' about not balancing a checkbook closer than about $50.......

No, I mean to the broader area. People moved around a lot.

I think the whole idea of either side trying to claim an "indiginous" specialness is false. They've all got ancient roots and they all deserve to be there.

They just need to deal with it and with each other without creating fiction.

Since you mean 'to the broader area' - then the majority of Jewish Israeli are indeed 'indigenous' because they are Mizrachi or Sephardi. And the Askenazim re *also* 'indigenous' because they have genetic commonalities with the M & S Jews which non-Jewish populations in Eastern Europe do not possess.

I am REALLY REALLY tired of hearing the noise about 'Askenazim aren't real Jews' and such like: it does not have a factual (genetic) basis, and that should be the end of that part of the 'discussion'.

I NEVER said that or inferred that! Do not put words in my mouth

All I'm saying - and will continue to say is that the Palestinians and Jews are essentially the same and both have longstanding roots to that region. To try and stake a claim on the basis of roots is ridiculous because neither side has a better claim. It doesn't matter whether it's the Pro-Palistinian side claiming the Jews are interlopers or the Pro-Israeli side claiming the Palestinians are recent immigrant.

 

[Coyote]

Its amazing how the pro-"Palestinians" will go on infinite tangents to avoid the truth.

The Jews have a connection to the land that goes back thousands of years.

"Palestinian," as a PLO official once ADMITTED, is a term created to combat Israel.

Thanks to all the proud Zionists who speak their minds on behalf of Israel.

The Palestinian peoples go back as far as the Jews. In fact, they include Jews.

It's amazing how some will go to infinate tangents in an attempt to marginalize one group or the other.

 

[MHunterB]

??? - Did you not see this post before, PatCat? That 'analogy' is rooted in a falsehood - it cannot produce truthful results.

Proto-Zionists include the (Lithuanian) Vilna Gaon, (Russian) Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk, (Bosnian) Rabbi Judah Alkalai[9] (German) Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, and (British) Sir Moses Montefiore.[10] Other advocates of Jewish independence include (American) Mordecai Manuel Noah, (Russian) Leon Pinsker and (German) Moses Hess.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zionism as an organized political movement began in many places most prominant among them is Russia.
You need to be a little more expansive and clear how is the anology rooted in a falsehood, or is this just your way of dodging the question

PatCat: I have not 'dodged' your 'question': it's already been answered n my first post where I told you the analogy was no good.

The analogy is no good because the premise you began with is false: the idea of Communism as a 'government' did indeed begin with Marx and Engels.

Not only did the concept of Zionism as a 'government' begin a couple thousand years before Herzl et al - the Jews in Russia or any other nation in the area, and I use the word 'nation' advisedly!, were not actually regarded by the nations as actual citizens of those nations in the same way that Jews in the US or France have been. Germany wasn't even really a 'nation' until 1848. The Jews in Russia were NOT recorded as being 'Russian': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia So there is no such 'citizenship' in point of historical fact. That is a second reason why the analogy is no good.

This lack of true 'citizenship' status was ALSO common throughout the ME lands. Basically, the US seems to have been the first nation to decide that citizenship was a *right* and not a privilege....I believe the French copied ours, and the English modified theirs as they moved to a greater reliance on their Constitution ? I acknowledge that I've not been a formal student of international 'civics' : I suspect that's a rather common American failing, to imagine that other nations conduct their internal business very much as we do ours.....

 

[patrickcaturday]

Proto-Zionists include the (Lithuanian) Vilna Gaon, (Russian) Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk, (Bosnian) Rabbi Judah Alkalai[9] (German) Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer, and (British) Sir Moses Montefiore.[10] Other advocates of Jewish independence include (American) Mordecai Manuel Noah, (Russian) Leon Pinsker and (German) Moses Hess.

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zionism as an organized political movement began in many places most prominant among them is Russia.
You need to be a little more expansive and clear how is the anology rooted in a falsehood, or is this just your way of dodging the question

PatCat: I have not 'dodged' your 'question': it's already been answered n my first post where I told you the analogy was no good.

The analogy is no good because the premise you began with is false: the idea of Communism as a 'government' did indeed begin with Marx and Engels.

Not only did the concept of Zionism as a 'government' begin a couple thousand years ebfre Herzl et al - the Jews in Russia or any other nation in the area, and I use the word 'nation' advisedly!, were not actually regarded by the nations as actual citizens of those nations in the same way that Jews in the US or France have been. Germany wasn't even really a 'nation' until 1848

This lack of true 'citizenship' status was ALSO common throughout the ME lands.

This is the problem with assuming things I was not talking about, the concept of communism as a government , I was refering to it as a political/economic ideology the same way as I was refering to Zionisn as a political ideology. They are both ideologies and thus the anology holds.

 

[MHunterB]

No, I mean to the broader area. People moved around a lot.

I think the whole idea of either side trying to claim an "indiginous" specialness is false. They've all got ancient roots and they all deserve to be there.

They just need to deal with it and with each other without creating fiction.

Since you mean 'to the broader area' - then the majority of Jewish Israeli are indeed 'indigenous' because they are Mizrachi or Sephardi. And the Askenazim re *also* 'indigenous' because they have genetic commonalities with the M & S Jews which non-Jewish populations in Eastern Europe do not possess.

I am REALLY REALLY tired of hearing the noise about 'Askenazim aren't real Jews' and such like: it does not have a factual (genetic) basis, and that should be the end of that part of the 'discussion'.

I NEVER said that or inferred that! Do not put words in my mouth

All I'm saying - and will continue to say is that the Palestinians and Jews are essentially the same and both have longstanding roots to that region. To try and stake a claim on the basis of roots is ridiculous because neither side has a better claim. It doesn't matter whether it's the Pro-Palistinian side claiming the Jews are interlopers or the Pro-Israeli side claiming the Palestinians are recent immigrant.

No, you certainly have not, Coyote. My apologies for not making it clearer: I was not addressing your specific remarks, but a common false assumption on the same topic which has been made by many others.

 

[Coyote]

Since you mean 'to the broader area' - then the majority of Jewish Israeli are indeed 'indigenous' because they are Mizrachi or Sephardi. And the Askenazim re *also* 'indigenous' because they have genetic commonalities with the M & S Jews which non-Jewish populations in Eastern Europe do not possess.

I am REALLY REALLY tired of hearing the noise about 'Askenazim aren't real Jews' and such like: it does not have a factual (genetic) basis, and that should be the end of that part of the 'discussion'.

I NEVER said that or inferred that! Do not put words in my mouth

All I'm saying - and will continue to say is that the Palestinians and Jews are essentially the same and both have longstanding roots to that region. To try and stake a claim on the basis of roots is ridiculous because neither side has a better claim. It doesn't matter whether it's the Pro-Palistinian side claiming the Jews are interlopers or the Pro-Israeli side claiming the Palestinians are recent immigrant.

No, you certainly have not, Coyote. My apologies for not making it clearer: I was not addressing your specific remarks, but a common false assumption on the same topic which has been made by many others.

As far as I'm concerned, they are all Jews equally But I also view it as much a religion as anything else. No branch should be denigrated.

 

[MHunterB]

PatCat: I have not 'dodged' your 'question': it's already been answered n my first post where I told you the analogy was no good.

The analogy is no good because the premise you began with is false: the idea of Communism as a 'government' did indeed begin with Marx and Engels.

Not only did the concept of Zionism as a 'government' begin a couple thousand years ebfre Herzl et al - the Jews in Russia or any other nation in the area, and I use the word 'nation' advisedly!, were not actually regarded by the nations as actual citizens of those nations in the same way that Jews in the US or France have been. Germany wasn't even really a 'nation' until 1848

This lack of true 'citizenship' status was ALSO common throughout the ME lands.

This is the problem with assuming things I was not talking about, the concept of communism as a government , I was refering to it as a political/economic ideology the same way as I was refering to Zionisn as a political ideology. They are both ideologies and thus the anology holds.

ONLY for those who agree it's possible to disengage Zionism from its cultural bed. Communism is one of those 'universal' political systems: it has NO religious or cultural components.

I think, oddly enough, that BIK might understand me better if I said that 'Zionism' is more akin to 'shari'a' than either is to Communism or Fascism or Democracy or Monarchy.

Now: As to whether the analogy stands or falls, we seem to be unable to agree. So, shall we put it to a vote? Or just agree to disagree?

Incidentally, you've never explained what I said about Zionism that you feel was incorrect: why not try?

 

[HistoryBefore67]

The Palestinian peoples go back as far as the Jews. In fact, they include Jews.

That's absurd. Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined. Stop playing idiotic semantics games.

 

[Coyote]

The Palestinian peoples go back as far as the Jews. In fact, they include Jews.

That's absurd. Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined. Stop playing idiotic semantics games.

It's not semantics. It's people.

It's you who are playing semantics.

 

[MHunterB]

To elaborate on my earlier comment: it's been a much-too-frequent 'argument' here that "Ashkenazi Jews from Russia have no connection to the land and shouldn't be getting accepted as citizens by Israel".

Now that the genetic studies have proven that assumption false, I think it's time to discard the fallacy. It is 1) an outsider presuming to define membership in another group and
2) an outsider presuming to dictate to a sovereign nation what immigration policies they should have.

And incidentally, that line of 'thinking' is also:

3) Doctrine of the Christian Identity and 'Creativity Alliance' which call themselves "race-based religions"

If anyone is going to insist on continuing that NOISE I do not think I'll be able to hear anything else they post over the droonge......

 

[MHunterB]

The Palestinian peoples go back as far as the Jews. In fact, they include Jews.

That's absurd. Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined. Stop playing idiotic semantics games.

It's not semantics. It's people.

It's you who are playing semantics.

Please, Coyote, explain - I do not quite understand you are disagreeing with or why.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

The Palestinian peoples go back as far as the Jews. In fact, they include Jews.

That's absurd. Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined. Stop playing idiotic semantics games.

It's not semantics. It's people.

It's you who are playing semantics.

Oh, please. You're spouting complete nonsense. When the Jews first established a nation in Israel, there was no Islam (and, therefore, no Muslims), no Syria Palestina, and no Palestinians. Therefore, the Jewish claim PREDATES that of the "Palestinians." Period, end of story, thanks for playing, buh-bye.

 

[Coyote]

That's absurd. Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined. Stop playing idiotic semantics games.

It's not semantics. It's people.

It's you who are playing semantics.

Please, Coyote, explain - I do not quite understand you are disagreeing with or why.

It doesn't matter if "Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined" - that's playing semantics.

People have been called various things over the centuries but they are still the same people.

The people now referred to as Palestinians didn't spontaneously appear when the term was coined - they'd been there as long as the Jews and they included Jews prior to the establishment of Israel.

 

[Coyote]

That's absurd. Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined. Stop playing idiotic semantics games.

It's not semantics. It's people.

It's you who are playing semantics.

Oh, please. You're spouting complete nonsense. When the Jews first established a nation in Israel, there was no Islam (and, therefore, no Muslims), no Syria Palestina, and no Palestinians. Therefore, the Jewish claim PREDATES that of the "Palestinians." Period, end of story, thanks for playing, buh-bye.

So you're claiming that the Palestinian people spontaneously appeared out of nowhere?

When the original nation of Israel existed several thousand years ago - the people of the area included the people the Palestinians descended from.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

It's not semantics. It's people.

It's you who are playing semantics.

Please, Coyote, explain - I do not quite understand you are disagreeing with or why.

It doesn't matter if "Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined" - that's playing semantics.

People have been called various things over the centuries but they are still the same people.

The people now referred to as Palestinians didn't spontaneously appear when the term was coined - they'd been there as long as the Jews and they included Jews prior to the establishment of Israel.

No, they haven't, because THEY WERE NOT A DISTINCT PEOPLE. The Jews were.

 

[Coyote]

Please, Coyote, explain - I do not quite understand you are disagreeing with or why.

It doesn't matter if "Jews existed before the term "Syria Palestina" was coined" - that's playing semantics.

People have been called various things over the centuries but they are still the same people.

The people now referred to as Palestinians didn't spontaneously appear when the term was coined - they'd been there as long as the Jews and they included Jews prior to the establishment of Israel.

No, they haven't, because THEY WERE NOT A DISTINCT PEOPLE. The Jews were.

It doesn't matter if they were a DISTINCT PEOPLE - their ANCESTORS were there. They are no LESS legitimate than the Jews.