Stop trying to divide "Jews" from "Zionists."

[sealadaigh]

Well...the problem is, Jews are also the native religion there and many of it's people are native inhabitants. If the Saudi's can establish a religion-based state why not the Jews?



Agree, but that was the way it was done by the powers in existance then - they carved up the Ottoman empire and served it out. We can't go back and change history.



That's a bit of a cunundrum since the logic applied to the creation of Israel that uses historical ties as a basis would also apply to the American Indian tribes and their tribes to land forceably taken from them but there are no calls to carve out new nations.

The way I look at it is when the Ottoman Empire fell, there was a regional vacuum and the world powers stepped in to take advantage of it and various nationalistic factions - Arabs, Zionists, plus the colonial powers squabbled. The end result is what we have now and it's what we have to deal with. You can't go back and forceably evict people - whether Jews or Palestinians nor can you allow a situation that could lead to a bloodbath.



I don't think they're guilty of genocide - genocide hasn't happened. But the thing is - the Jews are just as native as the Palestinians. They are the same people. So why can't they establish a Jewish state?

The issue is where, what borders, security, protections for vulnerable populations and full equality for all citizens, and preventing ethnic cleansing.



At this point it would be as cruel and unjust to do that as it would be to deport all the Palestinians to Arab countries.



America is a nation with a strong support for seperation of church and state. I support that - but I support the rights of other states to determine their own identity whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. I may not choose to live there, but it's their right

you are on a very slippery slope.

In what way?

well, i think that "establish their own identity" is very broad, and problematic. the reason there is an occupied territory and an ethnic cleansing that will become a genocide when any possibility of the national aspirations of the palestinians are daashed, is so that israel can maintain their jewish hegemony and not annex the territories.

a lot of states have determined their own identity, to include the unitwed states as a slave country.

israel has no constitution.

i know that isn't what you meant, but that is the slippery slope.

 

[Roudy]

Many have, just like many Jews. They're the same people:

Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News

Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews | God Reports

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

This topic has been discussed in depth in other threads. Whereas it has also been found that Jews share common genes with many other people's, and much closer than Palestinians - who are no different than the neighboring Arabs ie Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. genetically and culturally.

However it has also been proven that ALL Jews, whether from Europe (Ashkenazi) or the Middle East (also known as Sephardic or Mizrahi) share a common Cohen gene that goes back to Moses and Aaron's time, which, NO other people's have. This ties today's Jews, genetically speaking, directly to the land of Israel as it was thousands of years ago.

Actually, that is wrong - the Cohen gene is not exclusive to Jews. Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well it sure as hell ain't found in the Palestinians. There are types of this gene that only Jews have the most of, and the others that also have it are in lands that Jews used to live in and migrated out of, ie Kurds, Iraq, (I have relatives that are Iraqi / Kurdish Jews) so it's certainly plausible that this gene exists in those populations.

As I said the Palestinians are exactly the same as the neighboring Arabs such as the Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians. And clearly today's Jews are a different people. They are as related to the Palestinians as they would be to Egyptians or Jordanians.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No. I'm saying the people predate the religion.

Again, that makes no sense. By definition, the Muslim "people" came to being when the religion of Islam was established. The ancestors of those people were not Muslims.

Otherwise... Jews could say that Abraham's ancestors were Jewish, because he ultimately became the first Jew.

So... going back to the point...

Jews resided in Israel before the Muslims existed.

What I meant was when the Muslims conquored territories there were people already there many of whom probably became Muslim, so the people pre-date the Muslim conquest.

The Jewish religion existed in Israel before the Muslim religion - but the people were the same regardless of what they called themselves. Does that make sense?

No, that's just plain wrong. This is not simply about genetics. If it were, then one could argue that every person in the United States is, from a genetic standpoint, an African-American (as it is theorized that humans originated in Africa).

The Jewish people - characterized by a shared history, culture, religion and moral code - began in Israel long before the Muslim people - characterized by their shared history, culture, religion and moral code - came into being.

The fact that both might be able to trace their origins to Canaanites or some other extinct classes of people that predate both religions is entirely immaterial to any meaningful discussion.

This all started with Pinneped's assertion that the Jews displaced the "native people." This is not correct because the Jews are native to Israel.

 

[sealadaigh]

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

Many have, just like many Jews. They're the same people:

Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News

Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews | God Reports

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

This topic has been discussed in depth in other threads. Whereas it has also been found that Jews share common genes with many other people's, and much closer than Palestinians - who are no different than the neighboring Arabs ie Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. genetically and culturally.

However it has also been proven that ALL Jews, whether from Europe (Ashkenazi) or the Middle East (also known as Sephardic or Mizrahi) share a common Cohen gene that goes back to Moses and Aaron's time, which, NO other people's have. This ties today's Jews, genetically speaking, directly to the land of Israel as it was thousands of years ago.

if i jump through the right hoops and draw blood in the proper place i can become an israeli and there ain't a jewish DNA in me as i have given up mitochondria for lent.

DNA is just dancing around the issue. if it meant anything, israel would be DNA testint for citisenship.

 

[Roudy]

my house of cards does not accept that religious beliefs confers property rights or the right to exist as a state. let alone create a state over the homes of a people who have been their for centuries.

i have always defended the jews who were natives of palestine but historical connection means shite and erodes over time.

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

in the 1878 ottoman census of palestine, muslims and christians (palestinians) comprised 94.7% of the population. native jews comprised 3.2% and foreign born jews comprised 2.1%.

you can, of course. assume that they were beamed down by an anti-semite, anti-yahweh satinist band of planet hopping muslim terrorists from a distant solar system but you would then have to deal with the fact that capt. kirk and spock were both jewish and the horror is imponderable...so i think i am going to go with they had lived there for a considerable amount of time.

wait, wait, wait...mcCoy and scotty were celts...and scotty controlled the transporter beam...israel is mine...ALL MINE!!!

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

Nice try. What you're not including is that "Palestine" included today's Jordan, which we already know that there weren't that many Jews there, and that in the same time period, Jews were a majority population in Jerusalem. So when you take out the Arab population of Jordan, what are you left with in Israel? About 300, 000 Arabs who migrated from neighboring Arab lands lands in the 1800's into today's Israel. Yet today you have millions of Arabs claiming ownership of the land. What a joke. Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

Many have, just like many Jews. They're the same people:

Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News

Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews | God Reports

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

This topic has been discussed in depth in other threads. Whereas it has also been found that Jews share common genes with many other people's, and much closer than Palestinians - who are no different than the neighboring Arabs ie Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. genetically and culturally.

However it has also been proven that ALL Jews, whether from Europe (Ashkenazi) or the Middle East (also known as Sephardic or Mizrahi) share a common Cohen gene that goes back to Moses and Aaron's time, which, NO other people's have. This ties today's Jews, genetically speaking, directly to the land of Israel as it was thousands of years ago.

if i jump through the right hoops and draw blood in the proper place i can become an israeli and there ain't a jewish DNA in me as i have given up mitochondria for lent.

DNA is just dancing around the issue. if it meant anything, israel would be DNA testint for citisenship.

I wasn't the one that brought DNA up. However DNA is indeed another reason why the land belongs to the Jews.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Nice try. What you're not including is that "Palestine" included today's Jordan, which we already know that there weren't that many Jews there, and that in the same time period, Jews were a majority population in Jerusalem. So when you take out the Arab population of Jordan, what are you left with in Israel? About 300, 000 Arabs who migrated from neighboring Arab lands lands in the 1800's into today's Israel. Yet today you have millions of Arabs claiming ownership of the land. What a joke. Ha ha ha.

They also all claim to have been at Woodstock.

 

[toastman]

my house of cards does not accept that religious beliefs confers property rights or the right to exist as a state. let alone create a state over the homes of a people who have been their for centuries.

i have always defended the jews who were natives of palestine but historical connection means shite and erodes over time.

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

in the 1878 ottoman census of palestine, muslims and christians (palestinians) comprised 94.7% of the population. native jews comprised 3.2% and foreign born jews comprised 2.1%.

you can, of course. assume that they were beamed down by an anti-semite, anti-yahweh satinist band of planet hopping muslim terrorists from a distant solar system but you would then have to deal with the fact that capt. kirk and spock were both jewish and the horror is imponderable...so i think i am going to go with they had lived there for a considerable amount of time.

wait, wait, wait...mcCoy and scotty were celts...and scotty controlled the transporter beam...israel is mine...ALL MINE!!!

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

That doesnt prove that the Palestinians that are living there today are the same as the people who have been living there for centuries. But hey, at least you tried.

 

[CMike]

Anti semites think it's more "politically correct" to attack "zionists", rather than jews, but it's the same thing.

Israel is a central part of Judaism, and they know it.

 

[Roudy]

Anti semites think it's more "politically correct" to attack "zionists", rather than jews, but it's the same thing.

Israel is a central part of Judaism, and they know it.

Which is exactly why they attack Israel and hide behind "anti Zionism".

 

[sealadaigh]

"one shot, two kills"? Digusting

Yes, that (if true) is disgusting.

But that type of comment never seems to be coupled with a condemnation of far worse acts (i.e. Itamar).

Sometimes, that type of "selective indignation" is the best evidence of bigotry.

http://reneefrompalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/idf-shirts.jpg?w=450

i have condemned itamar. i am not going to balance the scales every time.

there is a helluva a lot of "selective indignation" demonstrated by pro-israeli posters. including yourself.

 

[Roudy]

Nice try. What you're not including is that "Palestine" included today's Jordan, which we already know that there weren't that many Jews there, and that in the same time period, Jews were a majority population in Jerusalem. So when you take out the Arab population of Jordan, what are you left with in Israel? About 300, 000 Arabs who migrated from neighboring Arab lands lands in the 1800's into today's Israel. Yet today you have millions of Arabs claiming ownership of the land. What a joke. Ha ha ha.

They also all claim to have been at Woodstock.

And even phoned home when ET did. LOL

 

[HistoryBefore67]

"one shot, two kills"? Digusting

Yes, that (if true) is disgusting.

But that type of comment never seems to be coupled with a condemnation of far worse acts (i.e. Itamar).

Sometimes, that type of "selective indignation" is the best evidence of bigotry.

http://reneefrompalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/idf-shirts.jpg?w=450

i have condemned itamar. i am not going to balance the scales every time.

there is a helluva a lot of "selective indignation" demonstrated by pro-israeli posters. including yourself.

Yeah... you're "Mr. Fair and Balanced."

 

[sealadaigh]

Anti semites think it's more "politically correct" to attack "zionists", rather than jews, but it's the same thing.

Israel is a central part of Judaism, and they know it.

Which is exactly why they attack Israel and hide behind "anti Zionism".

yeah, it has nothing at all to do with israel bombing the holy, living fook out of lebanon and gaza and the hundredss of dead children. it is just because people hate jews.

that is a two way street. people don't reallyt care about the iranian nuclear programs, they just hate persians. no one cares really about bottle rockets from gaza, they just hate palestinians and muslims. planes into twin towers...great excuse for expressing our distaste for saudis...

have i got the patter down?

 

[sealadaigh]

Yes, that (if true) is disgusting.

But that type of comment never seems to be coupled with a condemnation of far worse acts (i.e. Itamar).

Sometimes, that type of "selective indignation" is the best evidence of bigotry.

http://reneefrompalestine.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/idf-shirts.jpg?w=450

i have condemned itamar. i am not going to balance the scales every time.

there is a helluva a lot of "selective indignation" demonstrated by pro-israeli posters. including yourself.

Yeah... you're "Mr. Fair and Balanced."

well, gee whiz. i sure hope the palestinians kill a lot more israelis so i can express not only my outrage but demonstrate my equanimity as well. anything to keep you happy.

 

[sealadaigh]

It is not disputed that Mr Luther King Jr. said that "anti Zionism is anti Semitism" except by anti Semites like yourself. Malcolm X? Pfffft.

Quotes by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on Israel:

“Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.”

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

“I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

“Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

“I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

Dr. King was right, and a great man: “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

Bigotry is an affront to all and it doesn't matter whether it's towards blacks, Jews, Muslims or Palestinians or any other group.

Right on Dr. King

perhaps you would be willing to comment on the alleged quote by the reverend doctor martin luther king "“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.” and the contention by some that he would be supportive of the current situation in the state of israel and the human rights of the palestinian people.

i have made the suggestion that the good doctor king would be aligned with people like jimmy carter, desmond tutu, mairead corrigan, alice walker, and others and thst the suggestion that he would support the current situation taarnishes his memory.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

It is not disputed that Mr Luther King Jr. said that "anti Zionism is anti Semitism" except by anti Semites like yourself. Malcolm X? Pfffft.

Quotes by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on Israel:

“Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.”

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

“I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

“Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

“I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

Dr. King was right, and a great man: “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

Bigotry is an affront to all and it doesn't matter whether it's towards blacks, Jews, Muslims or Palestinians or any other group.

Right on Dr. King

perhaps you would be willing to comment on the alleged quote by the reverend doctor martin luther king "“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.” and the contention by some that he would be supportive of the current situation in the state of israel and the human rights of the palestinian people.

i have made the suggestion that the good doctor king would be aligned with people like jimmy carter, desmond tutu, mairead corrigan, alice walker, and others and thst the suggestion that he would support the current situation taarnishes his memory.

I think that Dr. King would be a fan of The Big Bang Theory if he were alive today.

That belief is about as relevant as your conjecture.

 

[Hossfly]

Anti semites think it's more "politically correct" to attack "zionists", rather than jews, but it's the same thing.

Israel is a central part of Judaism, and they know it.

Which is exactly why they attack Israel and hide behind "anti Zionism".

yeah, it has nothing at all to do with israel bombing the holy, living fook out of lebanon and gaza and the hundredss of dead children. it is just because people hate jews.

that is a two way street. people don't reallyt care about the iranian nuclear programs, they just hate persians. no one cares really about bottle rockets from gaza, they just hate palestinians and muslims. planes into twin towers...great excuse for expressing our distaste for saudis...

have i got the patter down?

But you are always missing an important point in your shtick. People have become aware in thus day and age how the Muslims are busy murdering people for their religious beliefs, even other Muslims. Those like you are very quiet about it in your effort to demonize the Israelis who are like pussycats in comparison to your Muslim friends. So while you have vomited out once agaiin about Gaza and Lebanon, civilized people these days are thinking about all these innocents.

U.N. says Syria death toll has likely surpassed 100,000 - latimes.com

 

[Roudy]

Anti semites think it's more "politically correct" to attack "zionists", rather than jews, but it's the same thing.

Israel is a central part of Judaism, and they know it.

Which is exactly why they attack Israel and hide behind "anti Zionism".

yeah, it has nothing at all to do with israel bombing the holy, living fook out of lebanon and gaza and the hundredss of dead children. it is just because people hate jews.

that is a two way street. people don't reallyt care about the iranian nuclear programs, they just hate persians. no one cares really about bottle rockets from gaza, they just hate palestinians and muslims. planes into twin towers...great excuse for expressing our distaste for saudis...

have i got the patter down?

Ah SHADAP Jew hater. Israel bombed Lebanon because Hezbollah animals kept shooting rockets into Israeli cities. For once tell the truth. Why exactly was Hezbollah shooting rockets at Israelis from Lebanon? Was Israel occupying Lebanon? No.

In fact no other country would have put up with the shit from these Hezbollah terrorist IslamoNazis without nuking all of southern Lebanon. So actually Israel was generous in going in and trying to sift through to locate and take out the terrorist pieces of shit and their strongholds. They did that and now the UN is monitoring southern Lebanon.

You're dismissed.

 

[Roudy]

It is not disputed that Mr Luther King Jr. said that "anti Zionism is anti Semitism" except by anti Semites like yourself. Malcolm X? Pfffft.

Quotes by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on Israel:

“Israel’s right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.”

“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

“I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

“Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

“I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

Dr. King was right, and a great man: “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

Bigotry is an affront to all and it doesn't matter whether it's towards blacks, Jews, Muslims or Palestinians or any other group.

Right on Dr. King

perhaps you would be willing to comment on the alleged quote by the reverend doctor martin luther king "“When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.” and the contention by some that he would be supportive of the current situation in the state of israel and the human rights of the palestinian people.

i have made the suggestion that the good doctor king would be aligned with people like jimmy carter, desmond tutu, mairead corrigan, alice walker, and others and thst the suggestion that he would support the current situation taarnishes his memory.

Your suggestion is wrong. What tarnishes MLK's memory is to align him with Hamas anti Semites and Palestinian Islamists who practice racism and apartheid in its purest form. He was a big supporter of Israel and as his as his quotes suggest would not have changed his position.

Just because you're an anti Semite who can't handle the truth doesn't mean it has to be everybody else's choice.