Stop trying to divide "Jews" from "Zionists."

[Coyote]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion haw a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

Well...the problem is, Jews are also the native religion there and many of it's people are native inhabitants. If the Saudi's can establish a religion-based state why not the Jews?

i see no reason for any of the people o the middle east to suffer becasuse ot the acts of europeans and i do not think england or the UN had any right to divvy up that land.

Agree, but that was the way it was done by the powers in existance then - they carved up the Ottoman empire and served it out. We can't go back and change history.

here is what i find amazing. i think most people who think that the creatin of israel is acceptable but would reject that notion when applied to anyone else. for instance, why shouldn't black americans be allowed to form a country out of the gulf states and evict the current inhabitants. why shouldn't mormons be allowed to create a state in utah based upon their religious beliefs.

That's a bit of a cunundrum since the logic applied to the creation of Israel that uses historical ties as a basis would also apply to the American Indian tribes and their tribes to land forceably taken from them but there are no calls to carve out new nations.

The way I look at it is when the Ottoman Empire fell, there was a regional vacuum and the world powers stepped in to take advantage of it and various nationalistic factions - Arabs, Zionists, plus the colonial powers squabbled. The end result is what we have now and it's what we have to deal with. You can't go back and forceably evict people - whether Jews or Palestinians nor can you allow a situation that could lead to a bloodbath.

yet i am the bigot for not willing to afford jewish people, a religious people, with special privilege.

i think those few palestinians who want a "judenfrei" palestine are guilty of genocide as well but i also think they are well within their rights to object to a"a jewish state" in the region.

I don't think they're guilty of genocide - genocide hasn't happened. But the thing is - the Jews are just as native as the Palestinians. They are the same people. So why can't they establish a Jewish state?

The issue is where, what borders, security, protections for vulnerable populations and full equality for all citizens, and preventing ethnic cleansing.

this is a european mess and american mess and we should take care of it. we owe reparations. america and europeaan states should absorb all those in refugee camps and offer them a life.

At this point it would be as cruel and unjust to do that as it would be to deport all the Palestinians to Arab countries.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

America is a nation with a strong support for seperation of church and state. I support that - but I support the rights of other states to determine their own identity whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. I may not choose to live there, but it's their right

 

[sealadaigh]

why do jews, as a group, insist on seperating themselves from the trajedies other peoples suffer when their should be some empathy. .

I've already proven that is not the case with a simple link to Yad Vashem's website. Why do you think that, by repeating your lies, they will ultimately become the truth?

But, hey... if you want me to humiliate you more, I certainly can oblige...

Would you like for me to post links to articles about Israel setting up field hospitals in Haiti following their tragic earthquake?

How about articles about Israel providing high-tech medical treatment to Arabs?

Or maybe some about how Israel offered assistance during natural disasters in Turkey, notwithstanding that country's increasingly hostile stance?

I could post about the many Jews who played key roles in the U.S. Civil Rights movement in the 1960s.

Or even simple references to the efforts of Jewish filmmakers to raise awareness of the plights of non-Jews through their artistic endeavors.

You are a bigot, Sir.

You denigrate Jews with every word you post.

You're not fooling anyone.

well, many jewish posters in the past have said the term "holocaust" only referred to the jewish victims of the nazis.

as for me being a bigot. i am not willing to afford special privelege to jewish people that i do not afford to other peoples. if that makes me a bigot, so be it, but most non-zionist people would disagree.

i think people who want to treat a people in an especial manner because of their ethnicity are bigots.

i am posting on a board where it is hard not to denigrate jews, particularly when they engage in shameless self promotion or lie, as in the qute by MLK jr, that has been thoroughly debunked.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion has a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

i see no reason for any of the people o the middle east to suffer becasuse ot the acts of europeans and i do not think england or the UN had any right to divvy up that land.

here is what i find amazing. i think most people who think that the creatin of israel is acceptable but would reject that notion when applied to anyone else. for instance, why shouldn't black americans be allowed to form a country out of the gulf states and evict the current inhabitants. why shouldn't mormons be allowed to create a state in utah based upon their religious beliefs.

yet i am the bigot for not willing to afford jewish people, a religious people, with special privilege.

i think those few palestinians who want a "judenfrei" palestine are guilty of genocide as well but i also think they are well within their rights to object to a"a jewish state" in the region.

this is a european mess and american mess and we should take care of it. we owe reparations. america and europeaan states should absorb all those in refugee camps and offer them a life.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

Your entire position is a house of cards built atop a single lie: that the Jews lack a historical connection to the land.

 

[sealadaigh]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion haw a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

Well...the problem is, Jews are also the native religion there and many of it's people are native inhabitants. If the Saudi's can establish a religion-based state why not the Jews?

i see no reason for any of the people o the middle east to suffer becasuse ot the acts of europeans and i do not think england or the UN had any right to divvy up that land.

Agree, but that was the way it was done by the powers in existance then - they carved up the Ottoman empire and served it out. We can't go back and change history.



That's a bit of a cunundrum since the logic applied to the creation of Israel that uses historical ties as a basis would also apply to the American Indian tribes and their tribes to land forceably taken from them but there are no calls to carve out new nations.

The way I look at it is when the Ottoman Empire fell, there was a regional vacuum and the world powers stepped in to take advantage of it and various nationalistic factions - Arabs, Zionists, plus the colonial powers squabbled. The end result is what we have now and it's what we have to deal with. You can't go back and forceably evict people - whether Jews or Palestinians nor can you allow a situation that could lead to a bloodbath.



I don't think they're guilty of genocide - genocide hasn't happened. But the thing is - the Jews are just as native as the Palestinians. They are the same people. So why can't they establish a Jewish state?

The issue is where, what borders, security, protections for vulnerable populations and full equality for all citizens, and preventing ethnic cleansing.

this is a european mess and american mess and we should take care of it. we owe reparations. america and europeaan states should absorb all those in refugee camps and offer them a life.

At this point it would be as cruel and unjust to do that as it would be to deport all the Palestinians to Arab countries.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

America is a nation with a strong support for seperation of church and state. I support that - but I support the rights of other states to determine their own identity whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. I may not choose to live there, but it's their right

i am against religious states. i am pro-democracy.

i am against islamic republics and that includes saudi arabia but they have not created their states with an artificial population that displaced the native inhabitants.

the palestinian refugees, i believe, would jump at the opportunity to emmigrate to europe and america. hell, i bet a lot of the israelis would.

so, you think a religious group should be able to form a state based upon their religion and displace the native inhabitants. i don't understand how we get away from that. maybe it is a flaw in my thinking.

i am really having a hard time understanding why people have a hard time expressing the israeli state in general terms applicable to all other peoples.

what the hell. i should just become a zionist. it seems like a path of least resistance.

 

[sealadaigh]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion has a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

i see no reason for any of the people o the middle east to suffer becasuse ot the acts of europeans and i do not think england or the UN had any right to divvy up that land.

here is what i find amazing. i think most people who think that the creatin of israel is acceptable but would reject that notion when applied to anyone else. for instance, why shouldn't black americans be allowed to form a country out of the gulf states and evict the current inhabitants. why shouldn't mormons be allowed to create a state in utah based upon their religious beliefs.

yet i am the bigot for not willing to afford jewish people, a religious people, with special privilege.

i think those few palestinians who want a "judenfrei" palestine are guilty of genocide as well but i also think they are well within their rights to object to a"a jewish state" in the region.

this is a european mess and american mess and we should take care of it. we owe reparations. america and europeaan states should absorb all those in refugee camps and offer them a life.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

Your entire position is a house of cards built atop a single lie: that the Jews lack a historical connection to the land.

my house of cards does not accept that religious beliefs confers property rights or the right to exist as a state. let alone create a state over the homes of a people who have been their for centuries.

i have always defended the jews who were natives of palestine but historical connection means shite and erodes over time.

catholics have a historical connection to the land as well. so what?

 

[toastman]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion has a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

i see no reason for any of the people o the middle east to suffer becasuse ot the acts of europeans and i do not think england or the UN had any right to divvy up that land.

here is what i find amazing. i think most people who think that the creatin of israel is acceptable but would reject that notion when applied to anyone else. for instance, why shouldn't black americans be allowed to form a country out of the gulf states and evict the current inhabitants. why shouldn't mormons be allowed to create a state in utah based upon their religious beliefs.

yet i am the bigot for not willing to afford jewish people, a religious people, with special privilege.

i think those few palestinians who want a "judenfrei" palestine are guilty of genocide as well but i also think they are well within their rights to object to a"a jewish state" in the region.

this is a european mess and american mess and we should take care of it. we owe reparations. america and europeaan states should absorb all those in refugee camps and offer them a life.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

Your entire position is a house of cards built atop a single lie: that the Jews lack a historical connection to the land.

my house of cards does not accept that religious beliefs confers property rights or the right to exist as a state. let alone create a state over the homes of a people who have been their for centuries.

i have always defended the jews who were natives of palestine but historical connection means shite and erodes over time.

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

 

[Coyote]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion haw a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

Well...the problem is, Jews are also the native religion there and many of it's people are native inhabitants. If the Saudi's can establish a religion-based state why not the Jews?



Agree, but that was the way it was done by the powers in existance then - they carved up the Ottoman empire and served it out. We can't go back and change history.



That's a bit of a cunundrum since the logic applied to the creation of Israel that uses historical ties as a basis would also apply to the American Indian tribes and their tribes to land forceably taken from them but there are no calls to carve out new nations.

The way I look at it is when the Ottoman Empire fell, there was a regional vacuum and the world powers stepped in to take advantage of it and various nationalistic factions - Arabs, Zionists, plus the colonial powers squabbled. The end result is what we have now and it's what we have to deal with. You can't go back and forceably evict people - whether Jews or Palestinians nor can you allow a situation that could lead to a bloodbath.



I don't think they're guilty of genocide - genocide hasn't happened. But the thing is - the Jews are just as native as the Palestinians. They are the same people. So why can't they establish a Jewish state?

The issue is where, what borders, security, protections for vulnerable populations and full equality for all citizens, and preventing ethnic cleansing.



At this point it would be as cruel and unjust to do that as it would be to deport all the Palestinians to Arab countries.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

America is a nation with a strong support for seperation of church and state. I support that - but I support the rights of other states to determine their own identity whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. I may not choose to live there, but it's their right

i am against religious states. i am pro-democracy.

i am against islamic republics and that includes saudi arabia but they have not created their states with an artificial population that displaced the native inhabitants.

the palestinian refugees, i believe, would jump at the opportunity to emmigrate to europe and america. hell, i bet a lot of the israelis would.

so, you think a religious group should be able to form a state based upon their religion and displace the native inhabitants. i don't understand how we get away from that. maybe it is a flaw in my thinking.

i am really having a hard time understanding why people have a hard time expressing the israeli state in general terms applicable to all other peoples.

what the hell. i should just become a zionist. it seems like a path of least resistance.

Two seperate things:

I think a people should be allowed to determine what sort of state they wan't because they are the ones who will live in it. I like America and for all it's problems, it is still the nation I would choose. Others might choose differently and it's their right.

When it comes to "displacing" native inhabitants you're ignoring a fundamental fact: many of the Jews are also "native inhabitants" - the same people as the Palestinians. So where do you draw the lines?

I strongly oppose the settlement building and displacement of people in West Bank and Gaza and I think those injustices must be addressed. The displacements that occurred during the formation of Israel occurred to both Jews and Palestinian Arabs are less easy to resolve other than by compensation.

 

[sealadaigh]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion haw a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

Well...the problem is, Jews are also the native religion there and many of it's people are native inhabitants. If the Saudi's can establish a religion-based state why not the Jews?

i see no reason for any of the people o the middle east to suffer becasuse ot the acts of europeans and i do not think england or the UN had any right to divvy up that land.

Agree, but that was the way it was done by the powers in existance then - they carved up the Ottoman empire and served it out. We can't go back and change history.



That's a bit of a cunundrum since the logic applied to the creation of Israel that uses historical ties as a basis would also apply to the American Indian tribes and their tribes to land forceably taken from them but there are no calls to carve out new nations.

The way I look at it is when the Ottoman Empire fell, there was a regional vacuum and the world powers stepped in to take advantage of it and various nationalistic factions - Arabs, Zionists, plus the colonial powers squabbled. The end result is what we have now and it's what we have to deal with. You can't go back and forceably evict people - whether Jews or Palestinians nor can you allow a situation that could lead to a bloodbath.



I don't think they're guilty of genocide - genocide hasn't happened. But the thing is - the Jews are just as native as the Palestinians. They are the same people. So why can't they establish a Jewish state?

The issue is where, what borders, security, protections for vulnerable populations and full equality for all citizens, and preventing ethnic cleansing.

this is a european mess and american mess and we should take care of it. we owe reparations. america and europeaan states should absorb all those in refugee camps and offer them a life.

At this point it would be as cruel and unjust to do that as it would be to deport all the Palestinians to Arab countries.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

America is a nation with a strong support for seperation of church and state. I support that - but I support the rights of other states to determine their own identity whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. I may not choose to live there, but it's their right

you are on a very slippery slope.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

So, you think a religious group should be able to form a state based upon their religion and displace the native inhabitants. i don't understand how we get away from that. maybe it is a flaw in my thinking.

There are several flaws in your thinking.

1. The Jews are not merely a religious group.
2. Saying that the state is "based upon their religion" is misleading, at best.
3. Israel did not "displace the native inhabitants." Jews are, in fact, among the native inhabitants of Israel (indeed, they are the oldest remaining group of inhabitants, predating all Muslims). Israel also established cities and communities on land that was entirely unoccupied (displacing nobody).

Discussions with you have become circular and boring.

If you want to believe that the "Palestinians" are innocent victims and the Jews are evil, nobody here is going to change your mind.

 

[Roudy]

why do jews, as a group, insist on seperating themselves from the trajedies other peoples suffer when their should be some empathy. .

I've already proven that is not the case with a simple link to Yad Vashem's website. Why do you think that, by repeating your lies, they will ultimately become the truth?

But, hey... if you want me to humiliate you more, I certainly can oblige...

Would you like for me to post links to articles about Israel setting up field hospitals in Haiti following their tragic earthquake?

How about articles about Israel providing high-tech medical treatment to Arabs?

Or maybe some about how Israel offered assistance during natural disasters in Turkey, notwithstanding that country's increasingly hostile stance?

I could post about the many Jews who played key roles in the U.S. Civil Rights movement in the 1960s.

Or even simple references to the efforts of Jewish filmmakers to raise awareness of the plights of non-Jews through their artistic endeavors.

You are a bigot, Sir.

You denigrate Jews with every word you post.

You're not fooling anyone.

well, many jewish posters in the past have said the term "holocaust" only referred to the jewish victims of the nazis.

as for me being a bigot. i am not willing to afford special privelege to jewish people that i do not afford to other peoples. if that makes me a bigot, so be it, but most non-zionist people would disagree.

i think people who want to treat a people in an especial manner because of their ethnicity are bigots.

i am posting on a board where it is hard not to denigrate jews, particularly when they engage in shameless self promotion or lie, as in the qute by MLK jr, that has been thoroughly debunked.

Stop lying, you shameless anti semitic whiner, all of the MLK quotes I posted in this thread are 100% true.

 

[Coyote]

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

Many have, just like many Jews. They're the same people:

Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News

Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews | God Reports

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

 

[Coyote]

i question, as always, whether the jewish religion haw a right to establish a state on the land of a native people.

Well...the problem is, Jews are also the native religion there and many of it's people are native inhabitants. If the Saudi's can establish a religion-based state why not the Jews?



Agree, but that was the way it was done by the powers in existance then - they carved up the Ottoman empire and served it out. We can't go back and change history.



That's a bit of a cunundrum since the logic applied to the creation of Israel that uses historical ties as a basis would also apply to the American Indian tribes and their tribes to land forceably taken from them but there are no calls to carve out new nations.

The way I look at it is when the Ottoman Empire fell, there was a regional vacuum and the world powers stepped in to take advantage of it and various nationalistic factions - Arabs, Zionists, plus the colonial powers squabbled. The end result is what we have now and it's what we have to deal with. You can't go back and forceably evict people - whether Jews or Palestinians nor can you allow a situation that could lead to a bloodbath.



I don't think they're guilty of genocide - genocide hasn't happened. But the thing is - the Jews are just as native as the Palestinians. They are the same people. So why can't they establish a Jewish state?

The issue is where, what borders, security, protections for vulnerable populations and full equality for all citizens, and preventing ethnic cleansing.



At this point it would be as cruel and unjust to do that as it would be to deport all the Palestinians to Arab countries.

america is rapidly becoming a majority catholic nation. can you imagine the protests should the united states declare themselves a catholic state. it would be just wrong.

the palestinians didn't make this mess.

America is a nation with a strong support for seperation of church and state. I support that - but I support the rights of other states to determine their own identity whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian. I may not choose to live there, but it's their right

you are on a very slippery slope.

In what way?

 

[Coyote]

So, you think a religious group should be able to form a state based upon their religion and displace the native inhabitants. i don't understand how we get away from that. maybe it is a flaw in my thinking.

There are several flaws in your thinking.

1. The Jews are not merely a religious group.
2. Saying that the state is "based upon their religion" is misleading, at best.
3. Israel did not "displace the native inhabitants." Jews are, in fact, among the native inhabitants of Israel (indeed, they are the oldest remaining group of inhabitants, predating all Muslims). Israel also established cities and communities on land that was entirely unoccupied (displacing nobody).

Discussions with you have become circular and boring.

They don't predate all Muslims - the religion is older than the religion of Islam, but not necessarily the peoples.
If you want to believe that the "Palestinians" are innocent victims and the Jews are evil, nobody here is going to change your mind.[/QUOTE]

 

[HistoryBefore67]

They don't predate all Muslims - the religion is older than the religion of Islam, but not necessarily the peoples.

Huh? Are you saying that there were Muslims before there was Islam? That makes no sense.

 

[Roudy]

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

Many have, just like many Jews. They're the same people:

Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News

Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews | God Reports

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

This topic has been discussed in depth in other threads. Whereas it has also been found that Jews share common genes with many other people's, and much closer than Palestinians - who are no different than the neighboring Arabs ie Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. genetically and culturally.

However it has also been proven that ALL Jews, whether from Europe (Ashkenazi) or the Middle East (also known as Sephardic or Mizrahi) share a common Cohen gene that goes back to Moses and Aaron's time, which, NO other people's have. This ties today's Jews, genetically speaking, directly to the land of Israel as it was thousands of years ago.

 

[Coyote]

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

Many have, just like many Jews. They're the same people:

Jews worldwide share genetic ties : Nature News

Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews | God Reports

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

This topic has been discussed in depth in other threads. Whereas it has also been found that Jews share common genes with many other people's, and much closer than Palestinians - who are no different than the neighboring Arabs ie Jordanians, Egyptians, etc. genetically and culturally.

However it has also been proven that ALL Jews, whether from Europe (Ashkenazi) or the Middle East (also known as Sephardic or Mizrahi) share a common Cohen gene that goes back to Moses and Aaron's time, which, NO other people's have. This ties today's Jews, genetically speaking, directly to the land of Israel as it was thousands of years ago.

Actually, that is wrong - the Cohen gene is not exclusive to Jews. Y-chromosomal Aaron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Coyote]

They don't predate all Muslims - the religion is older than the religion of Islam, but not necessarily the peoples.

Huh? Are you saying that there were Muslims before there was Islam? That makes no sense.

No. I'm saying the people predate the religion.

 

[sealadaigh]

Your entire position is a house of cards built atop a single lie: that the Jews lack a historical connection to the land.

my house of cards does not accept that religious beliefs confers property rights or the right to exist as a state. let alone create a state over the homes of a people who have been their for centuries.

i have always defended the jews who were natives of palestine but historical connection means shite and erodes over time.

I have never encountered any evidence that the Palestinian Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine have been there for centuries. Unless you can provide some demographic evidence of this, I'm going to go ahead and call it Arab propaganda

in the 1878 ottoman census of palestine, muslims and christians (palestinians) comprised 94.7% of the population. native jews comprised 3.2% and foreign born jews comprised 2.1%.

you can, of course. assume that they were beamed down by an anti-semite, anti-yahweh satinist band of planet hopping muslim terrorists from a distant solar system but you would then have to deal with the fact that capt. kirk and spock were both jewish and the horror is imponderable...so i think i am going to go with they had lived there for a considerable amount of time.

wait, wait, wait...mcCoy and scotty were celts...and scotty controlled the transporter beam...israel is mine...ALL MINE!!!

http://www.cjpmo.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=18

 

[HistoryBefore67]

They don't predate all Muslims - the religion is older than the religion of Islam, but not necessarily the peoples.

Huh? Are you saying that there were Muslims before there was Islam? That makes no sense.

No. I'm saying the people predate the religion.

Again, that makes no sense. By definition, the Muslim "people" came to being when the religion of Islam was established. The ancestors of those people were not Muslims.

Otherwise... Jews could say that Abraham's ancestors were Jewish, because he ultimately became the first Jew.

So... going back to the point...

Jews resided in Israel before the Muslims existed.

 

[Coyote]

Huh? Are you saying that there were Muslims before there was Islam? That makes no sense.

No. I'm saying the people predate the religion.

Again, that makes no sense. By definition, the Muslim "people" came to being when the religion of Islam was established. The ancestors of those people were not Muslims.

Otherwise... Jews could say that Abraham's ancestors were Jewish, because he ultimately became the first Jew.

So... going back to the point...

Jews resided in Israel before the Muslims existed.

What I meant was when the Muslims conquored territories there were people already there many of whom probably became Muslim, so the people pre-date the Muslim conquest.

The Jewish religion existed in Israel before the Muslim religion - but the people were the same regardless of what they called themselves. Does that make sense?