Debate Now The 2016 Campaign, Election and Aftermath

[candycorn]

They’ve told you. You’re simply choosing not to listen.

But please entertain us. Tell me a more accomplished first lady of the last half of the 20th century. Or a more accomplished Senator from her class. Do Secretaries of State accomplish anything on their own? Ever?

No, they don't tell me. I have asked. And if they had, I would choose to listen. And be careful. Zone 1 rules apply for this thread.

And yes, though the Secretary of State of course serves at the pleasure of the President with the consent of the Senate, the SofS has an extremely important job and tremendous responsibility. The three stand out SofS in the 20th Century were:

George C. Marshall served under President Truman from 1947-49) He helped negotiate the postwar policy of containment and promoted the Truman Doctrine that provided military aid for Greece and Turkey, developed the Marshall Plan for rebuilding postwar Europe, was instrumental in organizing the Organization of American States and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

And if you guys were alive then with the Internet, you’d be criticizing him for not taking out Russia while we were there.

His successor, Dean Acheson,1949-53, helped create NATO, brought West Germany into the European defense system, and master minded the policy of armed intervention in Korea.

Which gave us the stalemate in a useless war that has kept us there for now 60+ years.

Henry Kissinger, 1973-77, under Presidents Nixon and Ford, was highly influential with the President and Congress in national security affairs, he was best known for negotiating relaxed tensions and promote trade with China and the Soviet Union and pioneered the art of “shuttle diplomacy,” or persuading people who normally would not talk to us to enter into negotiations.

Highly influential…ahh...

In this century, Colin Powell was instrumental in negotiating new sanctions against Iraq and negotiating and signing of the Moscow Treaty on Strategic Offensive Reductions in May 2002. His successor, Condoleeza Rice was able to persuade a very reluctant President Bush to allow her to at least enter into negotiations with North Korea and Iran to find a solution to their nuclear programs--had her efforts continued in that effort, we might not be in as big a mess as we are in now after eight years of Obama administration bungling. She also wrote and obtained approval for the terms of a U.N. resolution to investigate war crimes in Sudan, something else GWB had resisted during his first term.

As a good soldier, Colin Powell followed orders and lied his ass off to sell the war to the UN and the American people.
Conde Rice sexed up the Intel; "We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” or something like that.

So what was it again that Hillary accomplished as SofS that will make it into the history books?

Didn’t commit us to Korea for 6 decades, didn’t lie to get us into a war that costs 5,000 US Soldiers lives and tens of thousands of Iraqis or miss the strategic advantage to wipe out the Commies in the USSR while we had the men and material to do it—that lead to the cold war that lead to Reagan plunging us in to a debt cycle that we have yet to emerge from.

Still, Marshall, Kissinger, Powell and Rice have something that some real estate developer from Manhattan don’t have and that is experience of a world stage, a diplomatic reservoir of experiences and customs that you just don’t innately have, relationships with heads of state, etc… IF you don’t think that is valuable, you’re simply not qualified to have this conversation. Sorry.

So Hilllary didn't do anything so that qualifies her? Okay.

Much like Cal Ripken didn't do anything as a SS for the Orioles or Charles Barkley didn't do anything as a forward for the Suns.

You simply place no value on the experience, relationships, diplomatic bandwidth. That's cool. But you sound pretty ignorant when you claim that she's accomplished nothing.

Again I will remind you that Zone 1 rules are in effect for this thread.

I made no such claim. I asked you what she had accomplished that qualifies her to be President. You mentioned some things she has not done, but nothing that she has accomplished. So so far, your argument is that Secretary of States don't accomplish anything by themselves and that she is qualified by what she hasn't done. I didn't say that. You did.

So I know what Ripkin and Barkley have done that qualifies them to be in the positions they hold or held. It isn't that they were part of a team that qualifies them, but what they accomplished with the team. It isn't what they didn't do that qualifies them but what they have accomplished. The real talent and skills they bring to their respective teams.

What has Hillary accomplished that qualifies her?

Lets just nail down what you think is important.

Do you place any value on meeting with heads of state as a representative of the United States?

 

[Foxfyre]

What makes her the most qualified?


All the accomplishments she can point to as first lady? Senator? Secretary of State?

as accomplished as any other First Lady, Senator, or SoS

Her honesty and trustworthiness?

Her convictions and consistency?

The lack of scandals and criticism for questionable activities?

Fully trust her to do what I want her to do as Zpresident

Well, she does have a following. I was just wondering what the attraction was other than she has a "D" after her name. So far nobody has been able to tell me.

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all,assumingf the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

The media always followed the other first ladies in their personal causes and what they were doing and were often quoting them pushing for those causes. I don't recall Hillary ever being followed in that way or quoted in her passion for anything in particular.

But where is the accomplishment to show that she has the ability to initiate and push through legislation, organize people to get things done? Where is the evidence of strong leadership ability, vision, and conviction? Her one significant effort that I know of was her husband's health care overhaul that was so badly crafted that not even any of the Democrats would vote for it when it was finally presented to Congress. Not exactly a promotional bell ringer. And some of the things she was responsible for as Secretary of State have had very bad results while she herself accepts responsibility for NOTHING that turned out badly. And she gave a persistent impression that is is mostly disinterested and detached from much of what she should have been doing while exaggerating her accomplishments and trying to make herself look noble. She has a lot in common with her boss, the President, in that regard.

Who can forget her dramatic story of her having to run for cover from sniper fire in Bosnia while those who were there assured us that simply didn't happen?
Flashback 2008: Hillary Clinton Exposed for Lying About Being 'Under Sniper Fire' in Bosnia

That seems to sum up Mrs. Clinton's character.

 

[candycorn]

as accomplished as any other First Lady, Senator, or SoS

Fully trust her to do what I want her to do as Zpresident

Well, she does have a following. I was just wondering what the attraction was other than she has a "D" after her name. So far nobody has been able to tell me.

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all, if the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

The media always followed the other first ladies in their personal causes and what they were doing and were often quoting them pushing for those causes. I don't recall Hillary ever being followed in that way or quoted in her passion for anything in particular.

But where is the accomplishment to show that she has the ability to initiate and push through legislation, organize people to get things done? Where is the evidence of strong leadership ability, vision, and conviction? Her one significant effort that I know of was her husband's health care overhaul that was so badly crafted that not even any of the Democrats would vote for it when it was finally presented to Congress. Not exactly a promotional bell ringer. And some of the things she was responsible for as Secretary of State have had very bad results while she herself accepts responsibility for NOTHING that turned out badly. And she gave a persistent impression that is is mostly disinterested and detached from much of what she should have been doing while exaggerating her accomplishments and trying to make herself look noble. Who can forget her dramatic story of her having to run for cover during gunfire while those who were there assured us that simply didn't happen? She had a lot in common with her boss, the President, in that regard.
Flashback 2008: Hillary Clinton Exposed for Lying About Being 'Under Sniper Fire' in Bosnia

That seems to sum up Mrs. Clinton's character.

Curious, what books have you read from Clinton Insiders that would have the knowledge of what Ms. Clinton did or didn’t do behind the scenes of the campaigns and administration?

 

[Foxfyre]

Well, she does have a following. I was just wondering what the attraction was other than she has a "D" after her name. So far nobody has been able to tell me.

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all, if the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

The media always followed the other first ladies in their personal causes and what they were doing and were often quoting them pushing for those causes. I don't recall Hillary ever being followed in that way or quoted in her passion for anything in particular.

But where is the accomplishment to show that she has the ability to initiate and push through legislation, organize people to get things done? Where is the evidence of strong leadership ability, vision, and conviction? Her one significant effort that I know of was her husband's health care overhaul that was so badly crafted that not even any of the Democrats would vote for it when it was finally presented to Congress. Not exactly a promotional bell ringer. And some of the things she was responsible for as Secretary of State have had very bad results while she herself accepts responsibility for NOTHING that turned out badly. And she gave a persistent impression that is is mostly disinterested and detached from much of what she should have been doing while exaggerating her accomplishments and trying to make herself look noble. Who can forget her dramatic story of her having to run for cover during gunfire while those who were there assured us that simply didn't happen? She had a lot in common with her boss, the President, in that regard.
Flashback 2008: Hillary Clinton Exposed for Lying About Being 'Under Sniper Fire' in Bosnia

That seems to sum up Mrs. Clinton's character.

Curious, what books have you read from Clinton Insiders that would have the knowledge of what Ms. Clinton did or didn’t do behind the scenes of the campaigns and administration?

Nothing. Which says to me that she didn't do much. Anybody can write a book and put anything they want to put into it. In the real world, there are reporters and commentators reporting on what those famous people are doing.

 

[Foxfyre]

No, they don't tell me. I have asked. And if they had, I would choose to listen. And be careful. Zone 1 rules apply for this thread.

And yes, though the Secretary of State of course serves at the pleasure of the President with the consent of the Senate, the SofS has an extremely important job and tremendous responsibility. The three stand out SofS in the 20th Century were:

George C. Marshall served under President Truman from 1947-49) He helped negotiate the postwar policy of containment and promoted the Truman Doctrine that provided military aid for Greece and Turkey, developed the Marshall Plan for rebuilding postwar Europe, was instrumental in organizing the Organization of American States and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

And if you guys were alive then with the Internet, you’d be criticizing him for not taking out Russia while we were there.

His successor, Dean Acheson,1949-53, helped create NATO, brought West Germany into the European defense system, and master minded the policy of armed intervention in Korea.

Which gave us the stalemate in a useless war that has kept us there for now 60+ years.

Henry Kissinger, 1973-77, under Presidents Nixon and Ford, was highly influential with the President and Congress in national security affairs, he was best known for negotiating relaxed tensions and promote trade with China and the Soviet Union and pioneered the art of “shuttle diplomacy,” or persuading people who normally would not talk to us to enter into negotiations.

Highly influential…ahh...

In this century, Colin Powell was instrumental in negotiating new sanctions against Iraq and negotiating and signing of the Moscow Treaty on Strategic Offensive Reductions in May 2002. His successor, Condoleeza Rice was able to persuade a very reluctant President Bush to allow her to at least enter into negotiations with North Korea and Iran to find a solution to their nuclear programs--had her efforts continued in that effort, we might not be in as big a mess as we are in now after eight years of Obama administration bungling. She also wrote and obtained approval for the terms of a U.N. resolution to investigate war crimes in Sudan, something else GWB had resisted during his first term.

As a good soldier, Colin Powell followed orders and lied his ass off to sell the war to the UN and the American people.
Conde Rice sexed up the Intel; "We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” or something like that.

So what was it again that Hillary accomplished as SofS that will make it into the history books?

Didn’t commit us to Korea for 6 decades, didn’t lie to get us into a war that costs 5,000 US Soldiers lives and tens of thousands of Iraqis or miss the strategic advantage to wipe out the Commies in the USSR while we had the men and material to do it—that lead to the cold war that lead to Reagan plunging us in to a debt cycle that we have yet to emerge from.

Still, Marshall, Kissinger, Powell and Rice have something that some real estate developer from Manhattan don’t have and that is experience of a world stage, a diplomatic reservoir of experiences and customs that you just don’t innately have, relationships with heads of state, etc… IF you don’t think that is valuable, you’re simply not qualified to have this conversation. Sorry.

So Hilllary didn't do anything so that qualifies her? Okay.

Much like Cal Ripken didn't do anything as a SS for the Orioles or Charles Barkley didn't do anything as a forward for the Suns.

You simply place no value on the experience, relationships, diplomatic bandwidth. That's cool. But you sound pretty ignorant when you claim that she's accomplished nothing.

Again I will remind you that Zone 1 rules are in effect for this thread.

I made no such claim. I asked you what she had accomplished that qualifies her to be President. You mentioned some things she has not done, but nothing that she has accomplished. So so far, your argument is that Secretary of States don't accomplish anything by themselves and that she is qualified by what she hasn't done. I didn't say that. You did.

So I know what Ripkin and Barkley have done that qualifies them to be in the positions they hold or held. It isn't that they were part of a team that qualifies them, but what they accomplished with the team. It isn't what they didn't do that qualifies them but what they have accomplished. The real talent and skills they bring to their respective teams.

What has Hillary accomplished that qualifies her?

Lets just nail down what you think is important.

Do you place any value on meeting with heads of state as a representative of the United States?

Depends on what she met with them for and what influence she had as a high level official of the United States. Again there was so little press coverage re such meetings compared with the coverage of prior Secretary of States and even John Kerry now, that it does raise serious questions about how effective she was. Just traveling to places at tax payer expense, registering for a conference that one may or may not have actually attended, and being wined and dined by virtue of one's position doesn't impress me as much of an accomplishment.

 

[candycorn]

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all, if the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

The media always followed the other first ladies in their personal causes and what they were doing and were often quoting them pushing for those causes. I don't recall Hillary ever being followed in that way or quoted in her passion for anything in particular.

But where is the accomplishment to show that she has the ability to initiate and push through legislation, organize people to get things done? Where is the evidence of strong leadership ability, vision, and conviction? Her one significant effort that I know of was her husband's health care overhaul that was so badly crafted that not even any of the Democrats would vote for it when it was finally presented to Congress. Not exactly a promotional bell ringer. And some of the things she was responsible for as Secretary of State have had very bad results while she herself accepts responsibility for NOTHING that turned out badly. And she gave a persistent impression that is is mostly disinterested and detached from much of what she should have been doing while exaggerating her accomplishments and trying to make herself look noble. Who can forget her dramatic story of her having to run for cover during gunfire while those who were there assured us that simply didn't happen? She had a lot in common with her boss, the President, in that regard.
Flashback 2008: Hillary Clinton Exposed for Lying About Being 'Under Sniper Fire' in Bosnia

That seems to sum up Mrs. Clinton's character.

Curious, what books have you read from Clinton Insiders that would have the knowledge of what Ms. Clinton did or didn’t do behind the scenes of the campaigns and administration?

Nothing. Which says to me that she didn't do much. Anybody can write a book and put anything they want to put into it. In the real world, there are reporters and commentators reporting on what those famous people are doing.

So your opinion is totally uninformed. Not surprising.
And no, there are not reporters and commentators who are behind the scenes on what “famous people” are doing in the “real” or any other world. Otherwise Bob Woodward wouldn’t have had to work as hard as he has worked.

Anyway, had you read George Stephanopolous’s book “All Too Human” as I recall the title was, you’d read both a yarn that wasn’t all that wonderful to Mr. Clinton and one that described Hillary as being Bill’s backbone in a lot of cases.

 

[Foxfyre]

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all, if the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

The media always followed the other first ladies in their personal causes and what they were doing and were often quoting them pushing for those causes. I don't recall Hillary ever being followed in that way or quoted in her passion for anything in particular.

But where is the accomplishment to show that she has the ability to initiate and push through legislation, organize people to get things done? Where is the evidence of strong leadership ability, vision, and conviction? Her one significant effort that I know of was her husband's health care overhaul that was so badly crafted that not even any of the Democrats would vote for it when it was finally presented to Congress. Not exactly a promotional bell ringer. And some of the things she was responsible for as Secretary of State have had very bad results while she herself accepts responsibility for NOTHING that turned out badly. And she gave a persistent impression that is is mostly disinterested and detached from much of what she should have been doing while exaggerating her accomplishments and trying to make herself look noble. Who can forget her dramatic story of her having to run for cover during gunfire while those who were there assured us that simply didn't happen? She had a lot in common with her boss, the President, in that regard.
Flashback 2008: Hillary Clinton Exposed for Lying About Being 'Under Sniper Fire' in Bosnia

That seems to sum up Mrs. Clinton's character.

Curious, what books have you read from Clinton Insiders that would have the knowledge of what Ms. Clinton did or didn’t do behind the scenes of the campaigns and administration?

Nothing. Which says to me that she didn't do much. Anybody can write a book and put anything they want to put into it. In the real world, there are reporters and commentators reporting on what those famous people are doing.

So your opinion is totally uninformed. Not surprising.
And no, there are not reporters and commentators who are behind the scenes on what “famous people” are doing in the “real” or any other world. Otherwise Bob Woodward wouldn’t have had to work as hard as he has worked.

Anyway, had you read George Stephanopolous’s book “All Too Human” as I recall the title was, you’d read both a yarn that wasn’t all that wonderful to Mr. Clinton and one that described Hillary as being Bill’s backbone in a lot of cases.

Like I said anybody can write a book and say anything they want to say. For sure Hillary did a lot of things, many underhanded in a lot of opinions, to salvage Bill's reputation. And she herself got pretty much anything she wanted because she knew where all the figurative bodies were buried. His backbone? Who knows what goes on out of sight of the cameras. I do know Stephanopolous was on Clinton's staff as chief policy advisor when he wrote that book and Hillary was already campaigning to be the carpet bagger Senator of New York. So how objective would he be?

I am not talking about behind the scenes on media coverage. I'm talking about the up front media coverage of a high level official performing his/her public official duties. You don't find much coverage on Hillary in that regard do you.

 

[candycorn]

And if you guys were alive then with the Internet, you’d be criticizing him for not taking out Russia while we were there.

Which gave us the stalemate in a useless war that has kept us there for now 60+ years.

Highly influential…ahh...

As a good soldier, Colin Powell followed orders and lied his ass off to sell the war to the UN and the American people.
Conde Rice sexed up the Intel; "We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” or something like that.

Didn’t commit us to Korea for 6 decades, didn’t lie to get us into a war that costs 5,000 US Soldiers lives and tens of thousands of Iraqis or miss the strategic advantage to wipe out the Commies in the USSR while we had the men and material to do it—that lead to the cold war that lead to Reagan plunging us in to a debt cycle that we have yet to emerge from.

Still, Marshall, Kissinger, Powell and Rice have something that some real estate developer from Manhattan don’t have and that is experience of a world stage, a diplomatic reservoir of experiences and customs that you just don’t innately have, relationships with heads of state, etc… IF you don’t think that is valuable, you’re simply not qualified to have this conversation. Sorry.

So Hilllary didn't do anything so that qualifies her? Okay.

Much like Cal Ripken didn't do anything as a SS for the Orioles or Charles Barkley didn't do anything as a forward for the Suns.

You simply place no value on the experience, relationships, diplomatic bandwidth. That's cool. But you sound pretty ignorant when you claim that she's accomplished nothing.

Again I will remind you that Zone 1 rules are in effect for this thread.

I made no such claim. I asked you what she had accomplished that qualifies her to be President. You mentioned some things she has not done, but nothing that she has accomplished. So so far, your argument is that Secretary of States don't accomplish anything by themselves and that she is qualified by what she hasn't done. I didn't say that. You did.

So I know what Ripkin and Barkley have done that qualifies them to be in the positions they hold or held. It isn't that they were part of a team that qualifies them, but what they accomplished with the team. It isn't what they didn't do that qualifies them but what they have accomplished. The real talent and skills they bring to their respective teams.

What has Hillary accomplished that qualifies her?

Lets just nail down what you think is important.

Do you place any value on meeting with heads of state as a representative of the United States?

Depends on what she met with them for and what influence she had as a high level official of the United States. Again there was so little press coverage re such meetings compared with the coverage of prior Secretary of States and even John Kerry now, that it does raise serious questions about how effective she was. Just traveling to places at tax payer expense, registering for a conference that one may or may not have actually attended, and being wined and dined by virtue of one's position doesn't impress me as much of an accomplishment.

Little Press Coverage? Have you been in a coma?

Associated Press 2/8/12

Egypt on Sunday referred 19 Americans, including the son of U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, and 24 other employees of pro-democracy nonprofit groups to trial before a criminal court on accusations they illegally used foreign funds to foment unrest. The referral came one day after U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned Egypt that failure to resolve the dispute may lead to the loss of American aid.

Associated Press 12/9/2011

Putin, in televised remarks, accused the U.S. of encouraging and funding the Russians protesting the alleged election fraud in Sunday's elections. By recently describing Russia's election as rigged, Clinton "gave a signal" to his opponents, said Putin, who also warned of a wider Russian crackdown on dissent.

"They heard this signal and with the support of the U.S. State Department began their active work," Putin said. He said the United States is spending "hundreds of millions" of dollars to influence Russian politics with the aim of weakening a rival nuclear power.

Putin's tough words show the deep cracks in U.S.-Russian ties despite President Barack Obama's efforts to "reset" relations with the Kremlin. Ahead of the election, President Dmitry Medvedev threatened to deploy missiles to target the U.S. missile shield in Europe if Washington failed to assuage Moscow's concerns about its plans.

Clinton has repeatedly criticized Sunday's parliamentary vote, saying "Russian voters deserve a full investigation of electoral fraud and manipulation."

Wire Services 7/23/2011

Today's meeting follows one held Friday between the nuclear negotiators for the two countries. That raised hopes that stalled six-nation negotiations on the North's nuclear programs could possibly restart.

However, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, also participating in the event, said North Korea must improve ties with the south b efore talks can resume.

The nuclear negotiators, Wi Sung-lac of South Korea and Ri Yong Ho, a newly appointed envoy from North Korea, met on the sidelines of the forum.

Bloomberg 12/2/2010

The United States, Japan and South Korea will hold high-level talks next week to plot a joint strategy on dealing withNorth Korea after its deadly artillery bombardment of the South, the State Department said Wednesday.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton will meet the foreign ministers of Japan and South Korea in Washington on Monday "to discuss the recent developments on the Korean Peninsula and their impact on regional security, as well as other regional and global issues," spokesman P.J. Crowley said.

I could literally highlight her representation of the US all day.

Here she is meeting with Putin on 9/9/12:

Meeting with Merkel:

She has been as well covered as any Secretary of State in History. You have zero idea what you’re talking about on this one.

 

[Foxfyre]

So Hilllary didn't do anything so that qualifies her? Okay.

Much like Cal Ripken didn't do anything as a SS for the Orioles or Charles Barkley didn't do anything as a forward for the Suns.

You simply place no value on the experience, relationships, diplomatic bandwidth. That's cool. But you sound pretty ignorant when you claim that she's accomplished nothing.

Again I will remind you that Zone 1 rules are in effect for this thread.

I made no such claim. I asked you what she had accomplished that qualifies her to be President. You mentioned some things she has not done, but nothing that she has accomplished. So so far, your argument is that Secretary of States don't accomplish anything by themselves and that she is qualified by what she hasn't done. I didn't say that. You did.

So I know what Ripkin and Barkley have done that qualifies them to be in the positions they hold or held. It isn't that they were part of a team that qualifies them, but what they accomplished with the team. It isn't what they didn't do that qualifies them but what they have accomplished. The real talent and skills they bring to their respective teams.

What has Hillary accomplished that qualifies her?

Lets just nail down what you think is important.

Do you place any value on meeting with heads of state as a representative of the United States?

Depends on what she met with them for and what influence she had as a high level official of the United States. Again there was so little press coverage re such meetings compared with the coverage of prior Secretary of States and even John Kerry now, that it does raise serious questions about how effective she was. Just traveling to places at tax payer expense, registering for a conference that one may or may not have actually attended, and being wined and dined by virtue of one's position doesn't impress me as much of an accomplishment.

Little Press Coverage? Have you been in a coma?

Associated Press 2/8/12

Egypt on Sunday referred 19 Americans, including the son of U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, and 24 other employees of pro-democracy nonprofit groups to trial before a criminal court on accusations they illegally used foreign funds to foment unrest. The referral came one day after U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton warned Egypt that failure to resolve the dispute may lead to the loss of American aid.

Associated Press 12/9/2011

Putin, in televised remarks, accused the U.S. of encouraging and funding the Russians protesting the alleged election fraud in Sunday's elections. By recently describing Russia's election as rigged, Clinton "gave a signal" to his opponents, said Putin, who also warned of a wider Russian crackdown on dissent.

"They heard this signal and with the support of the U.S. State Department began their active work," Putin said. He said the United States is spending "hundreds of millions" of dollars to influence Russian politics with the aim of weakening a rival nuclear power.

Putin's tough words show the deep cracks in U.S.-Russian ties despite President Barack Obama's efforts to "reset" relations with the Kremlin. Ahead of the election, President Dmitry Medvedev threatened to deploy missiles to target the U.S. missile shield in Europe if Washington failed to assuage Moscow's concerns about its plans.

Clinton has repeatedly criticized Sunday's parliamentary vote, saying "Russian voters deserve a full investigation of electoral fraud and manipulation."

Wire Services 7/23/2011

Today's meeting follows one held Friday between the nuclear negotiators for the two countries. That raised hopes that stalled six-nation negotiations on the North's nuclear programs could possibly restart.

However, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, also participating in the event, said North Korea must improve ties with the south b efore talks can resume.

The nuclear negotiators, Wi Sung-lac of South Korea and Ri Yong Ho, a newly appointed envoy from North Korea, met on the sidelines of the forum.

Bloomberg 12/2/2010

The United States, Japan and South Korea will hold high-level talks next week to plot a joint strategy on dealing withNorth Korea after its deadly artillery bombardment of the South, the State Department said Wednesday.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton will meet the foreign ministers of Japan and South Korea in Washington on Monday "to discuss the recent developments on the Korean Peninsula and their impact on regional security, as well as other regional and global issues," spokesman P.J. Crowley said.

I could literally highlight her representation of the US all day.

Here she is meeting with Putin on 9/9/12:

Meeting with Merkel:

She has been as well covered as any Secretary of State in History. You have zero idea what you’re talking about on this one.

Yes there will be information on the wire services because a contingency of media people accompanied her wherever she went and they chronicle those activities there. But those wire services were seldom of interest to the mainstream media transmitting those stories to the general public. Of course she got SOME coverage. Everybody in Washington does.

But again where is her influence shown? Where has she made a difference? I don't see it in the excerpts you found. Even Jimmy Carter has admitted the United States has lost ground in influence and prestige and respect over the last seven or eight years. And that points to the President and, as his primary ambassador, the Secretary of State.

 

[320 Years of History]

as accomplished as any other First Lady, Senator, or SoS

Fully trust her to do what I want her to do as Zpresident

Well, she does have a following. I was just wondering what the attraction was other than she has a "D" after her name. So far nobody has been able to tell me.

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all,assumingf the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

...

I am not going to sit here and make up stuff about anyone. Indeed, and you should know this from my posts, that I make a point of refraining from even making empty accusations about the folks on USMB of whom I have a very low opinion even. That sort of thing just doesn't serve my interests or objectives, and it is beneath my integrity to do. I'm not perfect by any means, but one mistake I do not and will not make is inventing easily checked facts (or anything else).

Do you want to fact check the things I listed? Have at it. Google is your friend. Just copy and paste each one into Google and see what you find, or, where applicable, click on the links I provided in the bulleted points themselves.

I cannot tell you why various individuals cannot remember that she's done the things I noted. Perhaps they would rather not remember? Perhaps they never knew it to begin with, thus not remembering it comes easy to them? I really can't speak for why other individuals could not cite those things.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well, she does have a following. I was just wondering what the attraction was other than she has a "D" after her name. So far nobody has been able to tell me.

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all,assumingf the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

...

I am not going to sit here and make up stuff about anyone. Indeed, and you should know this from my posts, that I make a point of refraining from even making empty accusations about the folks on USMB of whom I have a very low opinion even. That sort of thing just doesn't serve my interests or objectives, and it is beneath my integrity to do. I'm not perfect by any means, but one mistake I do not and will not make is inventing easily checked facts (or anything else).

Do you want to fact check the things I listed? Have at it. Google is your friend. Just copy and paste each one into Google and see what you find, or, where applicable, click on the links I provided in the bulleted points themselves.

I cannot tell you why various individuals cannot remember that she's done the things I noted. Perhaps they would rather not remember? Perhaps they never knew it to begin with, thus not remembering it comes easy to them? I really can't speak for why other individuals could not cite those things.

I think it is because a title or gratuitous honor or self-congratulation is not an accomplishment. For instance Obama's Nobel Prize received very early in his first year in office before he had done ANYTHING noteworthy to have deserved it. But it is on his resume.

 

[320 Years of History]

I would put that on my resume too. Wouldn't you?

 

[Foxfyre]

I would put that on my resume too. Wouldn't you?

I think I would be embarrassed to do that knowing that I did absolutely nothing to merit it. That isn't being noble or anything. I wouldn't want to hear the justified criticism of it being there. I want to be able to be proud of what is on my resume.

 

[Foxfyre]

Latest Delegate Count @ RealClearPolitics - Election 2016 â?? Republican Delegate Count

Latest Delegate map

RealClearPolitics - 2016 Republican Nomination

Thanks for these updates Longknife. They are really helpful.

So here's the picture as of today:

To win more than 50% of the delegates, 1,237 is the magic number.

There are 839 unallocated delegates remaining. (If I ran the numbers right on my 10-key.)

Trump needs 498 of those 839 delegates to get to 1,237.
Cruz needs 772 of those 839 delegates to get to 1,237
And Kasich needs 1,099 more delegates to get to 1,237 and obviously that is impossible.

But still Kasich says in.

Any speculation why?

He's diminishing Cruz's chances and hopes to be Trump's VP?
He's diminishing Trump's chances and hopes to be Cruz's VP?
Or he's bucking to force an open convention in which he will be named the party's nominee?

But there is another wrinkle nobody is talking about much. That is what happens to the delegates that went to the candidates who have already dropped out? State laws vary from state to state and in some cases the delegates are bound to cast their vote on the first ballot for the candidate who won those delegates even though the candidate has suspended. In other states those delegates are released to vote for whomever at convention. And I'm not sure, but it could be that some of the states have a rule that the candidate who suspends can name the person he/she wants his/her delegates to go to? Does anybody know anything about that.

And I don't think anybody has done a thorough analysis of what could happen in those various scenarios yet.


And on the Democratic side, it is a given that Hillary will be the nominee, UNLESS, a large number of the super delegates defect at the last minute and go for Sanders. Could that happen? I don't know.

 

[candycorn]

And we must remember that failure is a sign of doing something also. Clinton did not get her healthcare initiative past but at least she did something in the attempt. Unlike Nancy Reagan who was a total zero unlike Barbara Bush who was a total zero and unlike Laura Bush who also was a total zero.

 

[320 Years of History]

In our culture of binary comparisons and evaluations whereby one is either the best or most notable at "whatever" singular thing is under discussion, Mrs. Clinton doesn't stand out as the superlative embodiment of anything in particular, even though she's got a long list of actual accomplishments. While it's not true for anyone like you or me that being very good isn't enough, it seems we have a tacit expectation that our political leaders be "the best" at something, and in not being the best, they are by default no good at all. That false dilemma is the one Mrs. Clinton and her supporters face when asked "what's her claim to fame?"

The answer is that she's excelled a many things and her strength is found in her being very good at dealing with nearly everything that comes her way and that she's had enough losses and victories in her life which inform her now as she's on the cusp of being called to apply the learnings from all those experiences. That sort of thing is very hard to quantify, plus when coupled with a culture that looks either at "what's wrong," what are one's weaknesses and downfalls, or what are one's great successes that outstrip others, it's all the more difficult to get folks to understand that Mrs. Clinton is "a forest," not one or two "trees" that are "bigger and greener than all the others."

So strip away all the academic language and whatever argument is contained in there, and what do you have? A secretary of state who excelled in many things. But nobody can quite remember what those were?

Red and off topic:
??? What academic language?

Blue:
Eleven Moments that Define Hillary Clinton
What Is Hillary’s Greatest Accomplishment?

I don't know that I'd say that nobody can remember what Mrs. Clinton has done or accomplished. Some folks may not, however. Others may not have bothered to go find out.

As a private citizen:

• Played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
• She initiated and shepherded the creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act.
• She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH.
• She created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth.
  
• She was the chair of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession.
  
• She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome.
• She created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.
• She is also the first first lady to hold a postgraduate degree.
• She traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.
• Won a Grammy Award.
• She served on the boards of directors of Wal-Mart and several other corporations.
  
• She was a law professor at the University of Arkansas School of Law.
  
• She was Director of the Arkansas Legal Aid Clinic.
  
• She was President of the Wellesley Young Republicans.
• She interned at the House Republican Conference.
  
• She was a distinguished graduate of Yale Law School.
  
• She was a staff attorney for Children's Defense Fund.
• She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses.
  
• She reformed Arkansas' education system.
• She was partner at the Rose Law Firm.
• Twice named by the National Law Journal as one of the 100 most influential lawyers in America.

As a U.S. senator from New York:

• She was the first first woman to be elected to this office.
• She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment.
• She took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.
• In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas, effecting a ceasefire.
  
• After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans.
• She was one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act.
  
• She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.
  
• She served on five Senate committees:
  • Committee on Budget (2001–2002)
  • Committee on Armed Services (2003–2009)
  • Committee on Environment and Public Works (2001–2009)
  • Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (2001–2009)
  • Special Committee on Aging.

• She she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

As Secretary of State:

• She helped to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation.
  • U.S. Reputation Improves Abroad
    
  • Hillary Clinton: A long journey - BBC News
  • Hillary Clinton revived U.S.'s global authority (opinion) - CNN.com
• She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions.
• She unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord.
• She served as commissioner on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe
  
• She assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

I'm sure I've left out things....hopefully you get the idea that you must seek information that doesn't necessarily fall at your feet or that isn't part of pop culture's common awareness. Folks may not know what Mrs. Clinton, a person who's running for President has accomplished, but I'll wager they know who Brad Pitt is married to now and in the past. Now you tell me which information is more worth remembering, and bothering to know in the first place.

One may or may not agree -- it's irrelevant, in terms of her experience and accomplishments, whether one does or not -- politically with the aims and outcomes of some or all of what she's done, but what that has nothing to do with the prowess, nature and extent of excellent performance the woman has demonstrated since she was in college. Moreover, all that stuff she's done has imbued her with literally hundreds of lessons learned -- great and small -- from both her (objective) failures and successes, lessons she will bring to bear if/when she becomes President.

And the reason that nobody can recall any of those things when asked is that almost all,assumingf the list is actually accurate--where did you get the cut and paste?--is that almost all were gratuitous because she was married to the Attorney General and then the Governor of Arkansas and later the President of the United States. She apparently did little or nothing if she even showed up at most of those things. EVERY person running for high office has a list of stuff they were involved with in some way. And of course everybody has something they can point to with personal pride. But the proof is in those who work with the person and who testify to their contribution to an effort. Hillary doesn't seem to have anybody who can testify to her efforts, just those who repeat her self-created resume that she did this or did that.

...

I am not going to sit here and make up stuff about anyone. Indeed, and you should know this from my posts, that I make a point of refraining from even making empty accusations about the folks on USMB of whom I have a very low opinion even. That sort of thing just doesn't serve my interests or objectives, and it is beneath my integrity to do. I'm not perfect by any means, but one mistake I do not and will not make is inventing easily checked facts (or anything else).

Do you want to fact check the things I listed? Have at it. Google is your friend. Just copy and paste each one into Google and see what you find, or, where applicable, click on the links I provided in the bulleted points themselves.

I cannot tell you why various individuals cannot remember that she's done the things I noted. Perhaps they would rather not remember? Perhaps they never knew it to begin with, thus not remembering it comes easy to them? I really can't speak for why other individuals could not cite those things.

I think it is because a title or gratuitous honor or self-congratulation is not an accomplishment. For instance Obama's Nobel Prize received very early in his first year in office before he had done ANYTHING noteworthy to have deserved it. But it is on his resume.

Red:

• A title is not an accomplishment. You are correct on that. What one does to earn the title is the accomplishment. I heartily encourage you to investigate which titles Mrs. Clinton has that she did nothing to earn thus making them gratuitous. Give us a bulleted list of them and point us to the sources you queried and that show they are indeed gratuitous.
• What among the listed accomplishments strikes you as self-congratulation?

 

[320 Years of History]

And we must remember that failure is a sign of doing something also. Clinton did not get her healthcare initiative past but at least she did something in the attempt. Unlike Nancy Reagan who was a total zero unlike Barbara Bush who was a total zero and unlike Laura Bush who also was a total zero.

I would hardly say those women were "total zeroes." That's not fair to them at all. I also don't see it as fair to compare them to anyone else.

Each of us, like those three women, Mrs. Clinton, you, and I, has our accomplishments and they stand or fall on their own, without reference to others. Life isn't a competition to be better than someone one else; it's a journey to be the best one can be as an individual. Those three women didn't choose to pursue public life; Mrs. Clinton did. That is what it is, but it hardly makes those women zeroes.

 

[candycorn]

And we must remember that failure is a sign of doing something also. Clinton did not get her healthcare initiative past but at least she did something in the attempt. Unlike Nancy Reagan who was a total zero unlike Barbara Bush who was a total zero and unlike Laura Bush who also was a total zero.

I would hardly say those women were "total zeroes." That's not fair to them at all. I also don't see it as fair to compare them to anyone else.

Each of us, like those three women, Mrs. Clinton, you, and I, has our accomplishments and they stand or fall on their own, without reference to others. Life isn't a competition to be better than someone one else; it's a journey to be the best one can be as an individual. Those three women didn't choose to pursue public life; Mrs. Clinton did. That is what it is, but it hardly makes those women zeroes.

The opportunity one has as First Lady is unique, agreed? When you have the opportunity do you say and do nothing or do you contribute. HRC contributed as FLOTUS. They did not.

 

[320 Years of History]

And we must remember that failure is a sign of doing something also. Clinton did not get her healthcare initiative past but at least she did something in the attempt. Unlike Nancy Reagan who was a total zero unlike Barbara Bush who was a total zero and unlike Laura Bush who also was a total zero.

I would hardly say those women were "total zeroes." That's not fair to them at all. I also don't see it as fair to compare them to anyone else.

Each of us, like those three women, Mrs. Clinton, you, and I, has our accomplishments and they stand or fall on their own, without reference to others. Life isn't a competition to be better than someone one else; it's a journey to be the best one can be as an individual. Those three women didn't choose to pursue public life; Mrs. Clinton did. That is what it is, but it hardly makes those women zeroes.

The opportunity one has as First Lady is unique, agreed? When you have the opportunity do you say and do nothing or do you contribute. HRC contributed as FLOTUS. They did not.

FLOTUS is a role that one acquires by default. One must remember that, so far, men have aspired to be President, not wives who aspire to be FLOTUS. One cannot actively pursue the role of FLOTUS, but a woman who happens to be married to the President will, like it or not, be FLOTUS.

• Nancy Reagan
• Barbara Bush
• Laura Bush

That what those women did hasn't resonated with you doesn't mean they did nothing. It just means you haven't noticed what they did.

P.S./Edit:
Perhaps as FLOTUS, Mrs. Clinton thought she might want to one day be President. If so, it makes sense that she "do more" than had other FLOTUSes before her. Those other women may merely have wanted nothing more than to support their husbands. I don't know. I do know that FLOTUS, while it does present one with a lot of opportunity, isn't a job, but our nation acts and responds to it and its occupiers as such. If a First Lady opts to do literally nothing, well, she just does; that's her prerogative.

 

[candycorn]

And we must remember that failure is a sign of doing something also. Clinton did not get her healthcare initiative past but at least she did something in the attempt. Unlike Nancy Reagan who was a total zero unlike Barbara Bush who was a total zero and unlike Laura Bush who also was a total zero.

I would hardly say those women were "total zeroes." That's not fair to them at all. I also don't see it as fair to compare them to anyone else.

Each of us, like those three women, Mrs. Clinton, you, and I, has our accomplishments and they stand or fall on their own, without reference to others. Life isn't a competition to be better than someone one else; it's a journey to be the best one can be as an individual. Those three women didn't choose to pursue public life; Mrs. Clinton did. That is what it is, but it hardly makes those women zeroes.

The opportunity one has as First Lady is unique, agreed? When you have the opportunity do you say and do nothing or do you contribute. HRC contributed as FLOTUS. They did not.

FLOTUS is a role that one acquires by default. One must remember that, so far, men have aspired to be President, not wives who aspire to be FLOTUS. One cannot actively pursue the role of FLOTUS, but a woman who happens to be married to the President will, like it or not, be FLOTUS.

• Nancy Reagan
• Barbara Bush
• Laura Bush

That what those women did hasn't resonated with you doesn't mean they did nothing. It just means you haven't noticed what they did.

P.S./Edit:
Perhaps as FLOTUS, Mrs. Clinton thought she might want to one day be President. If so, it makes sense that she "do more" than had other FLOTUSes before her. Those other women may merely have wanted nothing more than to support their husbands. I don't know. I do know that FLOTUS, while it does present one with a lot of opportunity, isn't a job, but our nation acts and responds to it and its occupiers as such. If a First Lady opts to do literally nothing, well, she just does; that's her prerogative.

Well OK but what we are talking about is whether FLOTUS is in play for HRC as part of her exceptional resume....correct? If she had been a nobody in the role like Nancy Reagan it would be silly to point out for the most part although you get some standing in meeting with the Gorbachevs and Queen Elizabeth. If not tactical or strategic...at least you have an understanding of their thought process or what they feel is important.

HRC was leading the charge on Healthcare. Did it fail? Yes. Did it lay the groundwork for Ocare, yes. In fact, Nancy's Just Say No has backtracked into pot being widely accepted.

Just my 2 cents. Not "total zeroes" as humans but with a unique possibility to stress any pet topic, those 3 did zilch. Not HRC