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In the "endgame", the Germans didn´t even try to intercept bombers in lack of planes. Only when they could gather a decent number, which also was too small, they started an interception attempt.Number of bombers lost by each heavy bomber group in the 8th Air Force during World War III don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.
And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.
I've heard enough of your cracked history. Have a nice day.
Missions: 10631
Bombers lost: 4145
8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers
Stay classy.
Using your own cite, almost all of the bomber loses listed were from august 1943 to October 1943. What changed? The introduction of Fighter Escort. Then they were reduced even further when the fighter escort doctrine was changed where the fighters were allowed to fly ahead of the bombers and attack the Luftwaffe when they were forming up. In Oct 43, the poor 38 was flying bomber escort staying with the bombers and taking losses themselves while screening the bombers. That worked okay and allowed more bombers to get through. But in November, the fighter escorts were allowed to fly ahead of the bombers. You will notice that the Luftwaffe had serious trouble getting to the bombers and it took them a few months to react to that. The P-51 was still not a factor quite yet. But in Jan 1944, the P-51 was beginning to be a factor and the Fighter Sweeps had begun. The Luftwaffe had also changed their tactics and had started to pick up bombers again. By Mar, the fighter sweep had all but cripple the Luftwaffe so the bombers were largely downed by ground attack. By the time D-Day had come, the Bombers were almost alone with the exception of just a few Luftwaffe fighters. The 262 was about the only effective fighter left with experienced pilots that the Bombers had to contend with. In the 190s and 109s, maybe 1 out of 50 pilots were experience as fighter pilots by then. The papers say the war was lost in March of 1945 but it was really lost in October of 1943.
The P-80 goes even up to 600 mph but the 234´s cruise speed was nonetheless a bit higher, leaving the P-80 only a moderate window for an encounter. But the 234 was not made for dog fight, it cannot do it.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.
The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, asnd incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
They weren't grounded. When Uncle Adolf was insisting on that, they weren't in service yet. What it did was slow their service date. This was cured by the first flight of the Arado 234 Blitz which had the range and payload that the 262 didn't have. Funny, the Arado was used as a bomber but it was also used as a Recon. It drove the Allies nuts in Italy. The Allies couldn't make a move without the Germans knowing about it with their over flights. Here is a bit of coincidence. The AAF sent 2 YP-80s to Italy during the time that the Ar-234s were doing over flights. Right after the YP-80s arrived the AR-234s ceased their over flights. The P-80 had a top speed of 520 mph while the AR-234 had a top speed of 461. Since the YP-80 was extremely classified the reasons were never published what they were doing there except it was listed as training. But I believe that the AAF and the Luftwaffe knew the real reason. Had the AR-234s continued their over flights I believe we would have had our first Jet to Jet encounter. The 2 sent to England didn't fare so well and the AR-234 over flights continued.
They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.Even the first Bf-109 could carry small bombs and they were used as light bombers, reconnaissance, night fighter, fighter, cas and interceptor.
For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.
The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.
As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.
When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.
The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.
And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.
Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.
For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.
The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.
As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.
When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.
The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.
And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.
And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.
I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.
The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
Wrong. They DID know they didn't have the ability to produce enough engines. And as Oddball pointed out hitlers interference in the usage of the 262 didn't help the Germans at all. And you are wrong on the fuel. The Jumo 004 was designed to use three types of fuel, J-2 a synthetic fuel made from coal, aviation gas, which they didn't like to use because when it was available it was very inefficient, and diesel oil. All fuels that required significant effort to make, and transport to the needy aircraft.
You really should do some reading on the subject. Your lack of knowledge is pretty significant.
There´s already proof in his thread.I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.
The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.
And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.
And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.
Where the hell do you come up with that number? In World War ONE, the average life expectancy for an Allied air crew was four missions. On the Eastern Front the average life expectancy for a russian gunner in an IL-2 was five missions, but for the fliers in the west it was significantly greater. Bomber crews had to make 25 missions before they could go home, which was then increased to 35 and finally towards the end it was lifted to 50 as the German fighter threat was swept from the skies.
I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
Wrong. They DID know they didn't have the ability to produce enough engines. And as Oddball pointed out hitlers interference in the usage of the 262 didn't help the Germans at all. And you are wrong on the fuel. The Jumo 004 was designed to use three types of fuel, J-2 a synthetic fuel made from coal, aviation gas, which they didn't like to use because when it was available it was very inefficient, and diesel oil. All fuels that required significant effort to make, and transport to the needy aircraft.
You really should do some reading on the subject. Your lack of knowledge is pretty significant.
And you say the engines could use three different fuels. That´s not backing up your previous claim.
There´s already proof in his thread.I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.
And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.
And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.
Where the hell do you come up with that number? In World War ONE, the average life expectancy for an Allied air crew was four missions. On the Eastern Front the average life expectancy for a russian gunner in an IL-2 was five missions, but for the fliers in the west it was significantly greater. Bomber crews had to make 25 missions before they could go home, which was then increased to 35 and finally towards the end it was lifted to 50 as the German fighter threat was swept from the skies.
Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.
No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
Wrong. They DID know they didn't have the ability to produce enough engines. And as Oddball pointed out hitlers interference in the usage of the 262 didn't help the Germans at all. And you are wrong on the fuel. The Jumo 004 was designed to use three types of fuel, J-2 a synthetic fuel made from coal, aviation gas, which they didn't like to use because when it was available it was very inefficient, and diesel oil. All fuels that required significant effort to make, and transport to the needy aircraft.
You really should do some reading on the subject. Your lack of knowledge is pretty significant.
And you say the engines could use three different fuels. That´s not backing up your previous claim.
How about you try and educate yourself on the problems the Germans had with obtaining ANY fuel. Then get back to us. In other words, they had to design it to run on three different fuels because they couldn't ever know whether any one particular fuel would be available. And, the primary fuel that it was designed to use, J-2 was a synthetic fuel from coal, because they had coal in abundance, but they still couldn't get enough J-2 to run the aircraft.
All you are doing is reinforcing the widely held opinion that you are a moron.
Yes.There´s already proof in his thread.I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.
And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.
Where the hell do you come up with that number? In World War ONE, the average life expectancy for an Allied air crew was four missions. On the Eastern Front the average life expectancy for a russian gunner in an IL-2 was five missions, but for the fliers in the west it was significantly greater. Bomber crews had to make 25 missions before they could go home, which was then increased to 35 and finally towards the end it was lifted to 50 as the German fighter threat was swept from the skies.
Ummm, no there isn't.
Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
Wrong. They DID know they didn't have the ability to produce enough engines. And as Oddball pointed out hitlers interference in the usage of the 262 didn't help the Germans at all. And you are wrong on the fuel. The Jumo 004 was designed to use three types of fuel, J-2 a synthetic fuel made from coal, aviation gas, which they didn't like to use because when it was available it was very inefficient, and diesel oil. All fuels that required significant effort to make, and transport to the needy aircraft.
You really should do some reading on the subject. Your lack of knowledge is pretty significant.
And you say the engines could use three different fuels. That´s not backing up your previous claim.
How about you try and educate yourself on the problems the Germans had with obtaining ANY fuel. Then get back to us. In other words, they had to design it to run on three different fuels because they couldn't ever know whether any one particular fuel would be available. And, the primary fuel that it was designed to use, J-2 was a synthetic fuel from coal, because they had coal in abundance, but they still couldn't get enough J-2 to run the aircraft.
All you are doing is reinforcing the widely held opinion that you are a moron.
They were awaiting conversion. The fuel tank got smaller and a bomb bay was added. As I already noted. Hitler was manic about it and the involved people were forbidden to call it a fighter because it had to be a Blitzbomber.Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.
Wrong. They DID know they didn't have the ability to produce enough engines. And as Oddball pointed out hitlers interference in the usage of the 262 didn't help the Germans at all. And you are wrong on the fuel. The Jumo 004 was designed to use three types of fuel, J-2 a synthetic fuel made from coal, aviation gas, which they didn't like to use because when it was available it was very inefficient, and diesel oil. All fuels that required significant effort to make, and transport to the needy aircraft.
You really should do some reading on the subject. Your lack of knowledge is pretty significant.
And you say the engines could use three different fuels. That´s not backing up your previous claim.
How about you try and educate yourself on the problems the Germans had with obtaining ANY fuel. Then get back to us. In other words, they had to design it to run on three different fuels because they couldn't ever know whether any one particular fuel would be available. And, the primary fuel that it was designed to use, J-2 was a synthetic fuel from coal, because they had coal in abundance, but they still couldn't get enough J-2 to run the aircraft.
All you are doing is reinforcing the widely held opinion that you are a moron.
No, there wasn't. Not even close. Germany produced slightly over 1,400 262's. Less than 300 of them ever saw combat. Why do you think that is?
The P-80 goes even up to 600 mph but the 234´s cruise speed was nonetheless a bit higher, leaving the P-80 only a moderate window for an encounter. But the 234 was not made for dog fight, it cannot do it.Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.
No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, asnd incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.
They weren't grounded. When Uncle Adolf was insisting on that, they weren't in service yet. What it did was slow their service date. This was cured by the first flight of the Arado 234 Blitz which had the range and payload that the 262 didn't have. Funny, the Arado was used as a bomber but it was also used as a Recon. It drove the Allies nuts in Italy. The Allies couldn't make a move without the Germans knowing about it with their over flights. Here is a bit of coincidence. The AAF sent 2 YP-80s to Italy during the time that the Ar-234s were doing over flights. Right after the YP-80s arrived the AR-234s ceased their over flights. The P-80 had a top speed of 520 mph while the AR-234 had a top speed of 461. Since the YP-80 was extremely classified the reasons were never published what they were doing there except it was listed as training. But I believe that the AAF and the Luftwaffe knew the real reason. Had the AR-234s continued their over flights I believe we would have had our first Jet to Jet encounter. The 2 sent to England didn't fare so well and the AR-234 over flights continued.
They were awaiting conversion. The fuel tank got smaller and a bomb bay was added. As I already noted. Hitler was manic about it and the involved people were forbidden to call it a fighter because it had to be a Blitzbomber.Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.Wrong. They DID know they didn't have the ability to produce enough engines. And as Oddball pointed out hitlers interference in the usage of the 262 didn't help the Germans at all. And you are wrong on the fuel. The Jumo 004 was designed to use three types of fuel, J-2 a synthetic fuel made from coal, aviation gas, which they didn't like to use because when it was available it was very inefficient, and diesel oil. All fuels that required significant effort to make, and transport to the needy aircraft.
You really should do some reading on the subject. Your lack of knowledge is pretty significant.
And you say the engines could use three different fuels. That´s not backing up your previous claim.
How about you try and educate yourself on the problems the Germans had with obtaining ANY fuel. Then get back to us. In other words, they had to design it to run on three different fuels because they couldn't ever know whether any one particular fuel would be available. And, the primary fuel that it was designed to use, J-2 was a synthetic fuel from coal, because they had coal in abundance, but they still couldn't get enough J-2 to run the aircraft.
All you are doing is reinforcing the widely held opinion that you are a moron.
No, there wasn't. Not even close. Germany produced slightly over 1,400 262's. Less than 300 of them ever saw combat. Why do you think that is?
I saw an experimental twin prop (counter-rotating) Spitfire at the Reno Air Races a few years ago. The idea was to use smaller propellers to keep their tips from going supersonic and to counter torque effects. (With the switch to jet engines, this became a moot issue.)
Look it up, then.They were awaiting conversion. The fuel tank got smaller and a bomb bay was added. As I already noted. Hitler was manic about it and the involved people were forbidden to call it a fighter because it had to be a Blitzbomber.Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?I never that something different but maybe it did. After all, the Me 262 mass production could have resulted in a disaster for the Luftwaffe.
And you say the engines could use three different fuels. That´s not backing up your previous claim.
How about you try and educate yourself on the problems the Germans had with obtaining ANY fuel. Then get back to us. In other words, they had to design it to run on three different fuels because they couldn't ever know whether any one particular fuel would be available. And, the primary fuel that it was designed to use, J-2 was a synthetic fuel from coal, because they had coal in abundance, but they still couldn't get enough J-2 to run the aircraft.
All you are doing is reinforcing the widely held opinion that you are a moron.
No, there wasn't. Not even close. Germany produced slightly over 1,400 262's. Less than 300 of them ever saw combat. Why do you think that is?
An absolutely laughable assertion.
Look it up, then.They were awaiting conversion. The fuel tank got smaller and a bomb bay was added. As I already noted. Hitler was manic about it and the involved people were forbidden to call it a fighter because it had to be a Blitzbomber.Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?How about you try and educate yourself on the problems the Germans had with obtaining ANY fuel. Then get back to us. In other words, they had to design it to run on three different fuels because they couldn't ever know whether any one particular fuel would be available. And, the primary fuel that it was designed to use, J-2 was a synthetic fuel from coal, because they had coal in abundance, but they still couldn't get enough J-2 to run the aircraft.
All you are doing is reinforcing the widely held opinion that you are a moron.
No, there wasn't. Not even close. Germany produced slightly over 1,400 262's. Less than 300 of them ever saw combat. Why do you think that is?
An absolutely laughable assertion.
You can have a great Multirole fighter but when you have only one task left, going after bombers and their escort, it doesn´t mean anything anymore.Look it up, then.They were awaiting conversion. The fuel tank got smaller and a bomb bay was added. As I already noted. Hitler was manic about it and the involved people were forbidden to call it a fighter because it had to be a Blitzbomber.Sure, fuel got rarer every day. But for the few 262 that were actually used, there was enough, don´t you think?
No, there wasn't. Not even close. Germany produced slightly over 1,400 262's. Less than 300 of them ever saw combat. Why do you think that is?
An absolutely laughable assertion.
In the middle of 1943 when they started the Bomber Fortress idea in daylight bombing you are right and it was even worse than that. But it ended up averaging out about what you claim. After October of 1943, the bomber losses dropped to almost zero but the new fighter escort losses went way, way up. This also made the win/loss record for the P-38 look very deceptive. The Luftwaffe changed tactics and even with the new P-51 coming on line, the bomber losses came back on line but not nearly as deadly. And by March of 1944, the bomber losses were almost zero to Luftwaffe fighters but there were still plenty of losses to AA to go around. By Jan 1945, the AA was almost silent as well. The Multi Role Fighters did their jobs and did them well.
With the P-47 and the P-38 being based out of France, there wasn't a place in Germany that was safe from them. Of course, this was after the last time that the Luftwaffe had massed their entire Fighter Force and tried to cripple the Allied Fighters stationed in France and failed miserably. And, yes, there was a lot of luck involved on the P-47s side that day that the P-47s spotted the attacking force enabling the P-51s time to launch as well as the other P-47s. And there just wasn't enough experienced Luftwaffe Pilots in those seats either. But it was a good gamble. It really was a gamble, use those fighters in battle or lose them on the ground for the Luftwaffe. I know there used to be clip from the Discovery Channel that documented this but I can't find it now. Such a grand gamble. By that late in the war, the P-38 and the P-47 were doing the greater damage to the German war effort than the P-51 since the P-38 and the P-47 could take out locomotives, tanks and just about anything they ran across. But let a Luftwaffe Fighter show up and if the P-51 didn't bag them in the air, the Mustang would follow it home and bag it either on landing or on the ground. Or maybe, the P-38 or the P-47 would have enough gas left and have empty racks and do the fighter thing as well. That's one of the advantages of a Multi Role Fighter.
