The free market at work in Houston

Who cares about neighborly, maybe his dog barked all night and he was a dick. The point is that in a market you need a product to sell and a buyer who doesn't have that product but needs or wants it. The circumstances of that need or want don't mean much. You're preferring charity over business. Which can be noble but only if it comes from you not forced on others.

So to answer my question. At what price do I sell food and water to people who didn't prepare ahead of time?

Price gouging during an emergency is a criminal act. Why would you want to commit an illegal act, other then running to church and being absolved.
It's obvious you're cornered. So setting aside your feelings for a moment can you tell me what the legal definition of price gouging is? Or is it one of liberal constructs of I don't like that price so it must be price gouging?
There are actual state statutes on price gouging. It is unlawful in many states.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Statute

He has nowhere to go. I tend to ignore those.
You got cornered and are taking the lifesaver from Dim? That's pathetic.

I did a quick parsing of his link. It's a bunch of subjective feel good bullshit only to be applied to certain people. 30 days ago bottled water wasn't worth as much as it was two days ago. Why? Because 30 days ago you could purchase cases of it pretty cheap. Not so much in the last week.

Does price gouging apply to stocks? Or are those people not the kind you are after? A stock crashes in a day or two. Do we apply the last 30 day standard to that?

Why the last 30 day standard? What genius came up with that? 30 minutes is a lifetime in a natural disaster. Wouldn't that be more reasonable?

Price gouging during an emergency is illegal. What's wrong with you?
 
No argument here. As long as you acknowledge the value in common sense government control through law and regulations that protect the people from the abuses that the free market can inflict.

The abuses of regulation that I see and strongly disagree with are the ones that clearly are out to raise money for the government or restrict opportunity for entrepreneurs to enter a market.

It's not the abuses of free market. It's abuses of those exploiting their fellow man through capitalism. I refuse to accept this is "free market" when it occurs. I think it is very important to draw the distinction.

Look... here's free market capitalism:

You want a burrito.
I have knowledge on how to make a burrito.
I invest in ingredients and produce a burrito.
You and I voluntarily exchange money for the burrito.
You get the burrito you wanted, I get the money I wanted.
Someone else comes along and says, I can make a better burrito cheaper!
Now we have competition and you have a choice.

Now... Let's say some fucker comes along who pays a politician to pass laws which prohibit burritos made by any other company besides his? Or... that people who make burritos have to be paid $15 hr. Or... that burritos can only be made on Tuesdays from beef that comes from Texas. Or maybe he buys up all the companies who make the ingredients for burritos? --THIS IS NOT FREE MARKET CAPITALISM!
I know you want to think that free market is pure and true but those exploitations you mention exist in capitalism and are enabled if there is a free market without regulation. If your burrito guy is a third generation burrito maker and over the decades his family has set up factories and distribution centers all over the nation to get his burritos in every supermarket and convenience store, then he has the power and ability to control the market. If a guy with a healthier and better tasting burrito comes along, all that our friend needs to do is squeeze, and that guy is out of business. Or steal his recipe. Intellectual property theft is another one of those laws that restricts the free market for the better, anti trust laws are another... there are plenty of fine examples of government regulation and control that keeps our system going in a more fair and functional way. This should be a knowledged. On the flip side there is corruption and abuses done by the government that should exposed and eliminated.
The government has no credibility on the issue, They should be in no way involved in personal/financial affairs of the individual.
So you as a firearms dealer... you think you should have the right to open a MS13 gun shop in Chicago and sell machine guns to MS13 members. Lord knows there is a huge market out there and you'd make a killing. Is that what you are advocating?
Firearm ownership is an absolute right, right up to the point you lose that right by your behavior.
 
And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
 
Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society
What things would that be? And what is free and fair about government regulation?
Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.
Child labor isn't a phenomenon peculiar to capitalism. It's been around for tens of thousands of years. Capitalism is the institution that allowed it to finally disappear. Slavery is also no an intrinsic feature of capitalism. It's another evil that capitalism eliminated.

Are you trying to tell us that class warfare didn't exist before capitalism? Of course it did. income disparities were far worse in the pre-capitalist era. Capitalism reduced poverty. Capitalism drastically reduced the child morality rate, and the population increased by leaps the bounds. The reason it did was because people had enough to eat and decent cloths to wear. They were no longer dying in droves. Ghettos were also not peculiar to capitalism.

Every claim in your post is a leftwing myth.
Funny, you accidentally used the word Capitalism when you meant to say regulation.

No I didn't.

Child labor was eliminated because it was against the law. Slavery gone by law. The civil rights act gave blacks a chance to treated fairly in our "free" market which was grossly abusing and discriminating against them. You talk about myth... reread your post but turn your brain on this time

Wrong. The law wasn't passed until quite recently because children would have starved if they didn't work. The higher productivity of capitalism is what allowed children to remain out of the labor force. The child labor laws were consistently voted down until Americans could afford them.

Slavery disappeared in the capitalist countries first.WE had slavery for thousands of years until capitalism appeared on the scene. Slavery is inconsistent with a capitalist economy.

Child labor laws were established in 1938. This is why foreigners like you should participate.
 
No argument here. As long as you acknowledge the value in common sense government control through law and regulations that protect the people from the abuses that the free market can inflict.

The abuses of regulation that I see and strongly disagree with are the ones that clearly are out to raise money for the government or restrict opportunity for entrepreneurs to enter a market.

It's not the abuses of free market. It's abuses of those exploiting their fellow man through capitalism. I refuse to accept this is "free market" when it occurs. I think it is very important to draw the distinction.

Look... here's free market capitalism:

You want a burrito.
I have knowledge on how to make a burrito.
I invest in ingredients and produce a burrito.
You and I voluntarily exchange money for the burrito.
You get the burrito you wanted, I get the money I wanted.
Someone else comes along and says, I can make a better burrito cheaper!
Now we have competition and you have a choice.

Now... Let's say some fucker comes along who pays a politician to pass laws which prohibit burritos made by any other company besides his? Or... that people who make burritos have to be paid $15 hr. Or... that burritos can only be made on Tuesdays from beef that comes from Texas. Or maybe he buys up all the companies who make the ingredients for burritos? --THIS IS NOT FREE MARKET CAPITALISM!
I know you want to think that free market is pure and true but those exploitations you mention exist in capitalism and are enabled if there is a free market without regulation. If your burrito guy is a third generation burrito maker and over the decades his family has set up factories and distribution centers all over the nation to get his burritos in every supermarket and convenience store, then he has the power and ability to control the market. If a guy with a healthier and better tasting burrito comes along, all that our friend needs to do is squeeze, and that guy is out of business. Or steal his recipe. Intellectual property theft is another one of those laws that restricts the free market for the better, anti trust laws are another... there are plenty of fine examples of government regulation and control that keeps our system going in a more fair and functional way. This should be a knowledged. On the flip side there is corruption and abuses done by the government that should exposed and eliminated.
The government has no credibility on the issue, They should be in no way involved in personal/financial affairs of the individual.
So you as a firearms dealer... you think you should have the right to open a MS13 gun shop in Chicago and sell machine guns to MS13 members. Lord knows there is a huge market out there and you'd make a killing. Is that what you are advocating?
Firearm ownership is an absolute right, right up to the point you lose that right by your behavior.

FUNNY! The Supreme Court has said repeatedly that no right under the Constitution is absolute.
 
And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.
 
Price gouging stupid tourists is a-okay.

Price gouging people who've been through hell and are in a disaster area for needed essentials like clean drinking water is as abhorrent an act as you could possibly engage in.

There is a subtle nuance here. In my previous post, I stated:
"Price gouging is intentionally exploiting a disaster or condition in order to profit."

I realize that some will inevitably argue, well, isn't ALL free market capitalism an exploitation of sorts? And the answer is, no. True free market capitalism is a voluntary transaction between willing parties. Prices are determined by supply and demand. In the case of the hotel rooms during the eclipse, hotel rooms are in limited supply and the demand is very high. It's not exploitation to price the rooms in accordance with supply and demand because transaction remains voluntary.

So why wouldn't this apply to bottled water in a disaster? There is a high demand and limited supply. Transaction is voluntary. The difference is, the demand is high due to no fault of the consumer and the supply is limited because of the nature of the disaster itself. It is a temporary condition because of a disaster. With the rooms/eclipse scenario, the demand is high because of the consumer demand for rooms. The supply is not limited because there is an eclipse but because consumer demand is very high.

there are other things to consider

how much did the supplier pay for the water

how much money did the supplier put into it to get the product to site

what other sort of expenses does the supplier have
 
And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.

Where are you buying your gas cans? Me? I get the good old fashioned red plastic containers that have a spout contained in the gas cap. Never had a problem putting on the spout or pouring gas out of any gas can. Are you not smart enough to know how to turn a cap off of a can?
 
And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.


think that is bad

check out a new fuel tank for a boat

some smarty in the epa figured it was a good rule

to close off the evaporator valve

so now the tank when it sits in the sun swells into a great big gas ball

--LOL
 
And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.

Instructions not printed in French?
 
When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.

Where are you buying your gas cans? Me? I get the good old fashioned red plastic containers that have a spout contained in the gas cap. Never had a problem putting on the spout or pouring gas out of any gas can. Are you not smart enough to know how to turn a cap off of a can?

He's Canadian.
 
When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.

Where are you buying your gas cans? Me? I get the good old fashioned red plastic containers that have a spout contained in the gas cap. Never had a problem putting on the spout or pouring gas out of any gas can. Are you not smart enough to know how to turn a cap off of a can?
You haven't bought one in a while, have you? I buy mine at home depot, and they are a nightmare to use.
 
Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.

Where are you buying your gas cans? Me? I get the good old fashioned red plastic containers that have a spout contained in the gas cap. Never had a problem putting on the spout or pouring gas out of any gas can. Are you not smart enough to know how to turn a cap off of a can?
You haven't bought one in a while, have you? I buy mine at home depot, and they are a nightmare to use.

Actually, the little 2 gallon gas can that I have I got at the beginning of this summer. The other one was getting old. And yeah, I buy mine at Home Depot or Lowes. Are you not smart enough to operate a basic gas can?
 
Bad shit happens regardless of whether free markets exist or not. Government regulation exacerbates problems rather than solve them.

Consumer protection regulation 'exacerbates problems?'
Sure it does. Just consider gas cans. The have put all these safety devices on them that make it impossible to actually pour gas out of them. I tried for an hour before I went to home depot and bot a water can of the same size and put gas in it. The government regulations resulted in me using a container that was less safe.

Where are you buying your gas cans? Me? I get the good old fashioned red plastic containers that have a spout contained in the gas cap. Never had a problem putting on the spout or pouring gas out of any gas can. Are you not smart enough to know how to turn a cap off of a can?
You haven't bought one in a while, have you? I buy mine at home depot, and they are a nightmare to use.

Actually, the little 2 gallon gas can that I have I got at the beginning of this summer. The other one was getting old. And yeah, I buy mine at Home Depot or Lowes. Are you not smart enough to operate a basic gas can?
I knew that douche bag response was coming.

This is the kind of nozzle they had on the gas can I bought. It simply doesn't work

upload_2017-9-2_18-59-44.jpeg
 
3. If you charge somebody to park on your property, and said property isn't zoned correctly, and the property isn't licensed and insured for business use, you are committing a criminal act.

It is not a crime. It is a code violation. You are not a criminal.
 
It's obvious you're cornered. So setting aside your feelings for a moment can you tell me what the legal definition of price gouging is? Or is it one of liberal constructs of I don't like that price so it must be price gouging?

In Florida, this is how price gouging is determined.

1. What is Price Gouging?
Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days before the declaration of the state of emergency, unless the seller can justify the price by showing increases in its prices or market trends. Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Frequently Asked Questions
 
Who cares about neighborly, maybe his dog barked all night and he was a dick. The point is that in a market you need a product to sell and a buyer who doesn't have that product but needs or wants it. The circumstances of that need or want don't mean much. You're preferring charity over business. Which can be noble but only if it comes from you not forced on others.

So to answer my question. At what price do I sell food and water to people who didn't prepare ahead of time?

Price gouging during an emergency is a criminal act. Why would you want to commit an illegal act, other then running to church and being absolved.
It's obvious you're cornered. So setting aside your feelings for a moment can you tell me what the legal definition of price gouging is? Or is it one of liberal constructs of I don't like that price so it must be price gouging?
There are actual state statutes on price gouging. It is unlawful in many states.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Statute

He has nowhere to go. I tend to ignore those.
You got cornered and are taking the lifesaver from Dim? That's pathetic.

I did a quick parsing of his link. It's a bunch of subjective feel good bullshit only to be applied to certain people. 30 days ago bottled water wasn't worth as much as it was two days ago. Why? Because 30 days ago you could purchase cases of it pretty cheap. Not so much in the last week.

Does price gouging apply to stocks? Or are those people not the kind you are after? A stock crashes in a day or two. Do we apply the last 30 day standard to that?

Why the last 30 day standard? What genius came up with that? 30 minutes is a lifetime in a natural disaster. Wouldn't that be more reasonable?

Obviously you did not read much or, if you did, comprehend much.

1. What is Price Gouging?
Florida Statute 501.160 states that during a state of emergency, it is unlawful to sell, lease, offer to sell, or offer for lease essential commodities, dwelling units, or self-storage facilities for an amount that grossly exceeds the average price for that commodity during the 30 days before the declaration of the state of emergency, unless the seller can justify the price by showing increases in its prices or market trends. Examples of necessary commodities are food, ice, gas, and lumber.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Frequently Asked Questions
 
No doubt that is wrong charging $99 for a case of water, but it should not be illegal. The federal government has much more important things to worry about…

Those would be state laws, not Federal laws. Nothing in the Constitution gives the Federal Government the right to regulate prices. It is a states rights issue. I have no clue if all states have laws about price gouging or not.
 

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