The Greatest Biblical Wisdom

[PainefulTruth]

Mk 8:36--"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

A lot of words and ideas have been attributed to Jesus, but I think this one is genuinely his. The earliest writings about Jesus were simple collections of his sayings (Gospel of Thomas, the lost "Q" document). It also fits with is glorification of poverty which was carried on by followers after his death (e.g. James, the Ebionites).

This quote, however, doesn't demonize wealth as some of the other statements attributed to him do. He's merely saying not to sell your soul, your integrity, your self--even to rule the world. Wealth can be acquired honorably, and in doing so it often benefits others.

How do you sell your soul? By violating the equal rights all of us have to our life, liberty, property and self-defense through force or fraud. ALL such immorality/evil involves a moral/legal double standard which violates any of those interpersonal rights.

 

[The Irish Ram]

PT you are right about the soul and how gain can put it in jeopardy, but we have to get over this poverty is good mentality.
No where does the Bible tell us to be poor instead of abundant. In fact God's promises generate prosperity. He doesn't fill our cup, He overflows it.
Abraham was one of the wealthiest men of his time. So was Lot. Jesus hung out with the richest man of His time. And never asked him to part with one dime.

We assume poverty based on Jesus telling the rich man to give every thing he owned to the poor. Poverty is not the message of that story. It was that man's attitude and not his wealth that prompted the response he got from Jesus.

When the man asked Jesus what he must do to be a follower, Christ saw the man's HEART and rattled off some Mosaic laws to which the man boasted, been there done that, kept that.....
But Christ seeing the man's heart, knew that the rich man had a god that he had placed before his Father. And that was money. The man was arrogant about keeping the law and yet was breaking the very first one.
So Jesus was in essence telling the man to have no other God before His Father and to get rid of it if he did. The man couldn't give up his first love, so he turned his back to Christ and walked away.

By the same token Christ never asked Joseph of Arimathea to part with his astounding wealth, because Joseph's money was not as important to him as Jesus was to him.

One man lost his soul to a false God, one kept his soul and his money, because money isn't the issue. The love of it is.

Be wealthy in everything you do. It is what any good Father would want for His kids.
Put that wealth given to you by God Himself before God Himself, and your soul is at risk.
Painful is right about that.

 

[theword]

Mk 8:36--"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

A lot of words and ideas have been attributed to Jesus, but I think this one is genuinely his. The earliest writings about Jesus were simple collections of his sayings (Gospel of Thomas, the lost "Q" document). It also fits with is glorification of poverty which was carried on by followers after his death (e.g. James, the Ebionites).

This quote, however, doesn't demonize wealth as some of the other statements attributed to him do. He's merely saying not to sell your soul, your integrity, your self--even to rule the world. Wealth can be acquired honorably, and in doing so it often benefits others.

How do you sell your soul? By violating the equal rights all of us have to our life, liberty, property and self-defense through force or fraud. ALL such immorality/evil involves a moral/legal double standard which violates any of those interpersonal rights.

How would you know what Jesus said? Where you there? Did you know the Roman government had all the saints killed for their testimony of the invisible Christ that was revealed to them within their mind ( which is the mind of our Creator )?

All us saints had the wisdom of our Creator to speak for Him. There wasn't any saints named Jesus because English wasn't spoken 2,000 years ago. Jesus is a Christian false god that the Romans made up in their new testament. Nowhere in the old testament prophecies does it show a flesh named Jesus would show up as our Creator. The prophecies do show that us saints would be coming to testify to our invisible Creator and His eternal plan for His creation.

1 Corinthians 2
10: God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
11: For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12: Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.
13: And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
14: The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
15: The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
16: "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[PainefulTruth]

PT you are right about the soul and how gain can put it in jeopardy, but we have to get over this poverty is good mentality.
No where does the Bible tell us to be poor instead of abundant. In fact God's promises generate prosperity. He doesn't fill our cup, He overflows it.
Abraham was one of the wealthiest men of his time. So was Lot. Jesus hung out with the richest man of His time. And never asked him to part with one dime.

We assume poverty based on Jesus telling the rich man to give every thing he owned to the poor. Poverty is not the message of that story. It was that man's attitude and not his wealth that prompted the response he got from Jesus.

When the man asked Jesus what he must do to be a follower, Christ saw the man's HEART and rattled off some Mosaic laws to which the man boasted, been there done that, kept that.....
But Christ seeing the man's heart, knew that the rich man had a god that he had placed before his Father. And that was money. The man was arrogant about keeping the law and yet was breaking the very first one.
So Jesus was in essence telling the man to have no other God before His Father and to get rid of it if he did. The man couldn't give up his first love, so he turned his back to Christ and walked away.

By the same token Christ never asked Joseph of Arimathea to part with his astounding wealth, because Joseph's money was not as important to him as Jesus was to him.

One man lost his soul to a false God, one kept his soul and his money, because money isn't the issue. The love of it is.

Be wealthy in everything you do. It is what any good Father would want for His kids.
Put that wealth given to you by God Himself before God Himself, and your soul is at risk.
Painful is right about that.

But then Jesus dropped the other shoe, when he said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

This isn't the same thing as saying keep God above your other desires, including wealth, he's saying it's impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. He's saying that the only way to know that wealth isn't that important to you is to give it away, because otherwise you can't know.

 

[hobelim]

PT you are right about the soul and how gain can put it in jeopardy, but we have to get over this poverty is good mentality.
No where does the Bible tell us to be poor instead of abundant. In fact God's promises generate prosperity. He doesn't fill our cup, He overflows it.
Abraham was one of the wealthiest men of his time. So was Lot. Jesus hung out with the richest man of His time. And never asked him to part with one dime.

We assume poverty based on Jesus telling the rich man to give every thing he owned to the poor. Poverty is not the message of that story. It was that man's attitude and not his wealth that prompted the response he got from Jesus.

When the man asked Jesus what he must do to be a follower, Christ saw the man's HEART and rattled off some Mosaic laws to which the man boasted, been there done that, kept that.....
But Christ seeing the man's heart, knew that the rich man had a god that he had placed before his Father. And that was money. The man was arrogant about keeping the law and yet was breaking the very first one.
So Jesus was in essence telling the man to have no other God before His Father and to get rid of it if he did. The man couldn't give up his first love, so he turned his back to Christ and walked away.

By the same token Christ never asked Joseph of Arimathea to part with his astounding wealth, because Joseph's money was not as important to him as Jesus was to him.

One man lost his soul to a false God, one kept his soul and his money, because money isn't the issue. The love of it is.

Be wealthy in everything you do. It is what any good Father would want for His kids.
Put that wealth given to you by God Himself before God Himself, and your soul is at risk.
Painful is right about that.

But then Jesus dropped the other shoe, when he said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

This isn't the same thing as saying keep God above your other desires, including wealth, he's saying it's impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. He's saying that the only way to know that wealth isn't that important to you is to give it away, because otherwise you can't know.

The man of great wealth was probably a rabbi, his many possessions figurative for the many people of his congregation that he became wealthy from teaching to conform to a literal interpretation of Mosaic law.

Jesus telling the man to sell everything, give to the poor and follow him was Jesus telling the man to sell off all the bullshit he grew wealthy on, free his congregation from error that he taught, and then to follow Jesus in his teaching about the figurative nature of the law and do it.....to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Painful, That is not what he said. Nor is your interpretation of what He meant correct. Neither is yours Hob. We have to be careful about adding our two cents to His word because that is about what our opinions are worth.

If you interpretation was correct Christ would have advised His dear friend Joseph of A. to rid himself of wealth at once in order to be saved. And Joseph would have done so immediately because his heart was in the right place. Instead Joseph was allowed to enjoy His wealth and was charitable with it. In fact Christ was actually a recipient of Joseph's wealth and charity.

When the gates to a city were closed at night to prevent invasion, what remained was a thin oval sliver in the outer wall that citizens could go in and out of. It was shaped like and called the eye of a needle.
A camel, or horse could fit through the eye, but not with saddle bags filled with belongings.
If your animal was laden with your goods, you had to remove the bags from your camel, take the camel through the eye, then go back out and carry your belongings in.

It is harder for a person of wealth to enter the kingdom of heaven because wealth has a way of becoming #1 in our lives instead of God. Money, wealth, is only an obstacle IF it takes center stage in your life.

No where does Christ say the wealthy can't go to Heaven. Again, Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, etc. Our Father expects us to prosper. He never said, "be poor or else".

It is the LOVE of wealth, not wealth that makes it difficult. Keep wealth in it's place and enjoy it. Never care more about it than God and you'll be just fine.

 

[theword]

PT you are right about the soul and how gain can put it in jeopardy, but we have to get over this poverty is good mentality.
No where does the Bible tell us to be poor instead of abundant. In fact God's promises generate prosperity. He doesn't fill our cup, He overflows it.
Abraham was one of the wealthiest men of his time. So was Lot. Jesus hung out with the richest man of His time. And never asked him to part with one dime.

We assume poverty based on Jesus telling the rich man to give every thing he owned to the poor. Poverty is not the message of that story. It was that man's attitude and not his wealth that prompted the response he got from Jesus.

When the man asked Jesus what he must do to be a follower, Christ saw the man's HEART and rattled off some Mosaic laws to which the man boasted, been there done that, kept that.....
But Christ seeing the man's heart, knew that the rich man had a god that he had placed before his Father. And that was money. The man was arrogant about keeping the law and yet was breaking the very first one.
So Jesus was in essence telling the man to have no other God before His Father and to get rid of it if he did. The man couldn't give up his first love, so he turned his back to Christ and walked away.

By the same token Christ never asked Joseph of Arimathea to part with his astounding wealth, because Joseph's money was not as important to him as Jesus was to him.

One man lost his soul to a false God, one kept his soul and his money, because money isn't the issue. The love of it is.

Be wealthy in everything you do. It is what any good Father would want for His kids.
Put that wealth given to you by God Himself before God Himself, and your soul is at risk.
Painful is right about that.

But then Jesus dropped the other shoe, when he said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

This isn't the same thing as saying keep God above your other desires, including wealth, he's saying it's impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of God. He's saying that the only way to know that wealth isn't that important to you is to give it away, because otherwise you can't know.

The man of great wealth was probably a rabbi, his many possessions figurative for the many people of his congregation that he became wealthy from teaching to conform to a literal interpretation of Mosaic law.

Jesus telling the man to sell everything, give to the poor and follow him was Jesus telling the man to sell off all the bullshit he grew wealthy on, free his congregation from error that he taught, and then to follow Jesus in his teaching about the figurative nature of the law and do it.....to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus knew that him and all the saints who came after him would have to sell everything they had and give to the poor. The poor is the spirit of a man while the rich is the flesh of a man that desires the riches of this world. We saints give knowledge to the poor in spirit who listens to us but only if they are chosen to hear our Creator. The rich flesh hates the true gospel ( voice of God ) that we preach, even the flesh of believers reject the Truth but their spirit will keep listening to our Creator.

The flesh of us saints love this world too, but God squashes all the desires away except to eat, sleep and wear clothes. This is all that's promised to us saints once we're given the hidden knowledge that no man has ever known during this age.

 

[theword]

Painful, That is not what he said. Nor is your interpretation of what He meant correct. Neither is yours Hob. We have to be careful about adding our two cents to His word because that is about what our opinions are worth.

If you interpretation was correct Christ would have advised His dear friend Joseph of A. to rid himself of wealth at once in order to be saved. And Joseph would have done so immediately because his heart was in the right place. Instead Joseph was allowed to enjoy His wealth and was charitable with it. In fact Christ was actually a recipient of Joseph's wealth and charity.

When the gates to a city were closed at night to prevent invasion, what remained was a thin oval sliver in the outer wall that citizens could go in and out of. It was shaped like and called the eye of a needle.
A camel, or horse could fit through the eye, but not with saddle bags filled with belongings.
If your animal was laden with your goods, you had to remove the bags from your camel, take the camel through the eye, then go back out and carry your belongings in.

It is harder for a person of wealth to enter the kingdom of heaven because wealth has a way of becoming #1 in our lives instead of God. Money, wealth, is only an obstacle IF it takes center stage in your life.

No where does Christ say the wealthy can't go to Heaven. Again, Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, etc. Our Father expects us to prosper. He never said, "be poor or else".

It is the LOVE of wealth, not wealth that makes it difficult. Keep wealth in it's place and enjoy it. Never care more about it than God and you'll be just fine.

Christians have no clue what rich and poor mean. We saints know that our flesh loves the world and it's riches but our spirit loves the Lord who created us in His spirit. The flesh was made to perish during this first age but in the next age, we'll have flesh that will never be used to deceive us ( spirit ) again.

So the "rich" means the love of this world delusion while "poor" means the invisible spirit that was created in the mind of God. We saints say that the poor and the meek will inherit the earth, which is man's spirit, not his flesh that perishes during this age.

 

[The Irish Ram]

huh.
Jesus said we will be reunited with our mortal bodies at the rapture. That they will be glorified bodies that we will use for eternity. Here. On earth. With Him. In His mortal body. The same one that hung on the cross.

I wonder which one of you sees the correct future of man....

 

[turzovka]

Mk 8:36--"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

A lot of words and ideas have been attributed to Jesus, but I think this one is genuinely his. The earliest writings about Jesus were simple collections of his sayings (Gospel of Thomas, the lost "Q" document). It also fits with is glorification of poverty which was carried on by followers after his death (e.g. James, the Ebionites).

This quote, however, doesn't demonize wealth as some of the other statements attributed to him do. He's merely saying not to sell your soul, your integrity, your self--even to rule the world. Wealth can be acquired honorably, and in doing so it often benefits others.

How do you sell your soul? By violating the equal rights all of us have to our life, liberty, property and self-defense through force or fraud. ALL such immorality/evil involves a moral/legal double standard which violates any of those interpersonal rights.

So you think this "Jesus seminar" advances the Christian mission? You think these scholars and theologians have an honorable mission? You think God allowed the Holy Word to be corrupted from the start? In other words, if there is a passage or two that were not Jesus verbatim what difference does that make to a soul in search of the truth and salvation?

In more other words, I do not care one bit what some scholar tells me which words Jesus really said in the gospels and which were added. He is a fool unto himself as far as I am concerned.

As to the main point of your post --- Ok, I will agree that being wealthy is not a death sentence by any means. But the level of charity a wealthy person should show is a pretty tricky matter I believe. What about the man who followed every commandment served the lord in the synagogue faithfully, but Jesus looked at him with love and told him to go give all he has to the poor and then come and follow Me? What do you think (and I know neither of us are allowed or in a position to truly judge) was the fate of that man if he did not sell his possessions?

My answer is simple. He is saved, but he will be in purgatory for a good duration. That is God's justice and mercy in its most complete manifestation.

 

[PainefulTruth]

The man of great wealth was probably a rabbi, his many possessions figurative for the many people of his congregation that he became wealthy from teaching to conform to a literal interpretation of Mosaic law.

It's a parable making a point about a generic wealthy man, whatever position he might have.

Jesus telling the man to sell everything, give to the poor and follow him was Jesus telling the man to sell off all the bullshit he grew wealthy on, free his congregation from error that he taught, and then to follow Jesus in his teaching about the figurative nature of the law and do it.....to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I think what Jesus was probably getting at was preaching against what we call today, purchasing indulgences (read, salvation), which only the wealthy could do. This is emphasized by the disciples' disbelieving reaction, 'If the wealthy can't make it, who can.'

Painful, That is not what he said.

What did he say?

Nor is your interpretation of what He meant correct. Neither is yours Hob. We have to be careful about adding our two cents to His word because that is about what our opinions are worth.

If you interpretation was correct Christ would have advised His dear friend Joseph of A. to rid himself of wealth at once in order to be saved. And Joseph would have done so immediately because his heart was in the right place. Instead Joseph was allowed to enjoy His wealth and was charitable with it. In fact Christ was actually a recipient of Joseph's wealth and charity.

Not if what he was talking about was indulgences. There's one thing we mustn't do with wealth, abuse the power is enables, and the other thing we can't do, buy one's way into heaven. IOW, you can have it here, but don't abuse it--and you can't take it with you.

When the gates to a city were closed at night to prevent invasion, what remained was a thin oval sliver in the outer wall that citizens could go in and out of. It was shaped like and called the eye of a needle.
A camel, or horse could fit through the eye, but not with saddle bags filled with belongings.
If your animal was laden with your goods, you had to remove the bags from your camel, take the camel through the eye, then go back out and carry your belongings in.

That's an explanation that didn't come into existence until 1000 years or more after Jesus' time. There is no evidence of such a gate, and the word he uses for needle is the one used in sewing.

It is harder for a person of wealth to enter the kingdom of heaven because wealth has a way of becoming #1 in our lives instead of God. Money, wealth, is only an obstacle IF it takes center stage in your life.

I agree that money is a great source of temptation. But there are a lot more people who are honorable and wealthy than we give credence. Wealth envy seeps into the attitude of many via the subconscious, making it seem that there are many fewer honorably wealthy than there actually are.

You seem to be a pious person, Irish; have you given your wealth to the poor? I don't judge you for not doing so, but I think maybe you might be. The fact that you have access to the Internet (probably via a computer), indicates that you're in the wealthy class on a worldwide scale where the average income is $5000 a year.