The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

[Shusha]

Seems the founder of the Zionist paradise, Ben Gurion, agreed with what I've been saying all along; modern Palestinians are the "Arabised" indigenous population of Palestine; they never went away, they never died off; they were never disposessed by Arab invaders, only by a bunch of European colonisers.

But be really, really clear about what you are saying here.

1. You are saying that the Palestinians are the Arabized indigenous population. The indigenous population were the people who originated on the land (despite the oppression and persecution by foreign invaders) -- the Jewish people. The Palestinians claim to being indigenous is by virtue of being originally Jewish. So the indigenous people are the Jewish people.

AND

2. If the indigenous people were "Arabized" by invaders and those invaders, by mixing with the local population, obtain the right to self-determination and sovereignty over territory regardless of their "foreignization" then you must, if you are being non-discriminatory, apply that concept over all populations. Which means that the "European invaders" (who, of course, are really the indigenous people and not invaders at all) who colonize and "Europeanize" the territory also obtain the right to self-determination and sovereignty. And if those indigenous peoples who were dispossessed of the land have no right of return, then this must apply to the Palestinians as well. You can't have a double standard here. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Shusha]

However, there IS Evidence (Merneptah Stele, etc) that the Jews were/were in "Israel" by the 13th Century BC.

Wrong!

The Merneptah stele merely mentions the existence of a foreign people called "Israel", it doesn't say anything else about them other than at best, if they were sedentary, their grain stores/fields had been razed/devastated; or at worst if they were nomadic, they had been exterminated/dispersed. Their is no mention of their religion other than the suggestion that they may have been "followers" (Isr) of "El" one of several deities in the area. For that matter, it is unclear what "area" they lived in. All of this is currently under dispute by historians and archaeologists, so to state that "Jews were/were in "Israel" by the 13th Century BC" is inaccurate.

So, wait, what? You are denying that the Jewish people are linked to the ancient nation of Israel?

 

[Shusha]

The OP question has been answered. The Jewish people are the indigenous people. The Palestinian claim to indigeneity arises from their claim to be direct ancestors of the indigenous Jewish people. Case closed.

What we are really arguing here is:

1. What is the morally correct view of territorial self-determination and sovereignty when an indigenous peoples intersects with an invading culture.

2. What is the morally correct view of territorial self-determination and sovereignty when an indigenous peoples are successfully dispossessed of their land.

 

[Challenger]

AGAIN Challenger: You Dishonest Word-twisting antisemite..

"No, You're wrong Goebbels boy. It is "evidence" as Israel was the land of the Jews, and Not coincidentally, roughly correlates with the Biblical timing of the Jews arrival there. Is it 1000% "Proof", No, but it is "Evidence."
Other Archaelogical Evidence Follows this first extra-biblical mention.
You're such a predictable anti-semitic asshole, and always wrong."​

+

You know you're right once they start repeating the same drivel ans calling you names.

 

[Challenger]

But be really, really clear about what you are saying here.

1. You are saying that the Palestinians are the Arabized indigenous population. The indigenous population were the people who originated on the land (despite the oppression and persecution by foreign invaders) -- the Jewish people. The Palestinians claim to being indigenous is by virtue of being originally Jewish. So the indigenous people are the Jewish people.

To be really, really, clear about what I’m saying is the indigenous population did not necessarily follow Judean monotheism or El/Yahweh worship, which was just one of several local cults, so were not “Jewish” in any religious sense, nor were they a homogenous “people” or ethnic group at the time, so to state “the indigenous people are the Jewish people” is wildly inaccurate and displays a lack of understanding of how social structures of Antiquity functioned.

 

[Challenger]

However, there IS Evidence (Merneptah Stele, etc) that the Jews were/were in "Israel" by the 13th Century BC.

Wrong!

The Merneptah stele merely mentions the existence of a foreign people called "Israel", it doesn't say anything else about them other than at best, if they were sedentary, their grain stores/fields had been razed/devastated; or at worst if they were nomadic, they had been exterminated/dispersed. Their is no mention of their religion other than the suggestion that they may have been "followers" (Isr) of "El" one of several deities in the area. For that matter, it is unclear what "area" they lived in. All of this is currently under dispute by historians and archaeologists, so to state that "Jews were/were in "Israel" by the 13th Century BC" is inaccurate.

So, wait, what? You are denying that the Jewish people are linked to the ancient nation of Israel?

Define "Jewish people".

 

[Challenger]

The OP question has been answered. The Jewish people are the indigenous people. The Palestinian claim to indigeneity arises from their claim to be direct ancestors of the indigenous Jewish people. Case closed.

Dream on.

 

[Shusha]

Define "Jewish people".

I'm not sure why I should bother. No matter what I say you are going to find a way to deny the legitimacy of the Jewish people either by denying the definition or denying the link from the Jewish people to people in the territory in question in ancient times.

Besides, you know very well who I'm speaking of when I say the Jewish people.

But I'll play your little game and say: The Jewish people are those who self-identify with Jewish culture and are accepted by the group. The Jewish culture is defined by:

the distinct Hebrew language
distinct religious beliefs and practices
written and oral cultural histories and creeds, such as Torah, Tanach, Mishna, Gemara, etc
association with a specific territory as a place of origin
a system of laws and social conventions
distinctive practices for life rituals: birth, adulthood, marriage, death and burial, etc
holiday celebrations and rituals
food laws and rituals
distinctive clothing items, laws and rituals

This list is not exhaustive. Now, would you care to define the "Palestinians"?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Define "Jewish people".

I'm not sure why I should bother. No matter what I say you are going to find a way to deny the legitimacy of the Jewish people either by denying the definition or denying the link from the Jewish people to people in the territory in question in ancient times.

Besides, you know very well who I'm speaking of when I say the Jewish people.

But I'll play your little game and say: The Jewish people are those who self-identify with Jewish culture and are accepted by the group. The Jewish culture is defined by:

the distinct Hebrew language
distinct religious beliefs and practices
written and oral cultural histories and creeds, such as Torah, Tanach, Mishna, Gemara, etc
association with a specific territory as a place of origin
a system of laws and social conventions
distinctive practices for life rituals: birth, adulthood, marriage, death and burial, etc
holiday celebrations and rituals
food laws and rituals
distinctive clothing items, laws and rituals

This list is not exhaustive. Now, would you care to define the "Palestinians"?

Any distinctive Palestinian trait (food, dress, customs, language, names, etc.), would apply to any of the Arab peoples, except for the place of residence perhaps. And, since many Arabs are nomads, even THAT is questionable.

 

[Challenger]

Besides, you know very well who I'm speaking of when I say the Jewish people.

No I don't. I can guess, but just asked for confirmation. To me, Jewish people are those of any nationality or culture who profess to follow the religion known as "Judaism", to be equally clear.

The Jewish people are those who self-identify with Jewish culture and are accepted by the group. The Jewish culture is defined by:

Well examples of those who self-identify with a particular "culture" and who are accepted by the group include Mormons, Freemasons, Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo(-ists), Moonies, Jehova's Witnesses and many, many, others. None of them can be defined as an "ethnic" group.

Now, would you care to define the "Palestinians"?

Certainly. Palestinians are those people indigenous to the politico-geographic area called Palestine, regardless of their religion.

 

[Boston1]

Besides, you know very well who I'm speaking of when I say the Jewish people.

No I don't. I can guess, but just asked for confirmation. To me, Jewish people are those of any nationality or culture who profess to follow the religion known as "Judaism", to be equally clear.

The Jewish people are those who self-identify with Jewish culture and are accepted by the group. The Jewish culture is defined by:

Well examples of those who self-identify with a particular "culture" and who are accepted by the group include Mormons, Freemasons, Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo(-ists), Moonies, Jehova's Witnesses and many, many, others. None of them can be defined as an "ethnic" group.

Now, would you care to define the "Palestinians"?

Certainly. Palestinians are those people indigenous to the politico-geographic area called Palestine, regardless of their religion.

Gotcha

So you admit that there is absolutely nothing unique about these so called palestinians other than geopolitical location.

And my favorite part, according to the UNWRA persons wishing to register as palestinians only need have resided in the area for a period of 2 years. WOW

IE they are in no way a distinct or unique culture or people indigenous to the area. They are just more Arab Muslims who just happen to be there at a given time in history. An extremely select time I might add.

Took you long enough

So now that thats settled we can move on to indigenous characteristics

Which are that someone have actual ties to the land, which doesn't include having immigrated to it like the Arab Muslims did thousands of years AFTER a race and culture already developed there, the Judiac people.

Finally some progress.

Honestly Challenged, I didn't think you had it in you

 

[Shusha]

No I don't. I can guess, but just asked for confirmation. To me, Jewish people are those of any nationality or culture who profess to follow the religion known as "Judaism", to be equally clear.

Well examples of those who self-identify with a particular "culture" and who are accepted by the group include Mormons, Freemasons, Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo(-ists), Moonies, Jehova's Witnesses and many, many, others. None of them can be defined as an "ethnic" group.

Ah. So you are going with the Jewish-is-just-a-religion fallacy, denying the Jewish people the right to a national homeland because religions don't get homelands, only ethnic groups get homelands and the Jewish people are not an ethnic group and have no distinct culture.

Unfortunately, this argument fails before if has even begun due to the cultural qualities I have already listed which clearly demonstrate that the Jewish people have a distinct culture apart from and in addition to the religion.

If you are insistent on discussing further, though, please provide an objective set of criteria for defining an ethnic culture as distinct from a religion, ensuring it is widely applicable to all groups.

 

[Shusha]

Certainly. Palestinians are those people indigenous to the politico-geographic area called Palestine, regardless of their religion.

Define "indigenous" in this context. What criteria determines whether or not a group is "indigenous"?

 

[Challenger]

So you are going with the Jewish-is-just-a-religion fallacy, denying the Jewish people the right to a national homeland because religions don't get homelands, only ethnic groups get homelands and the Jewish people are not an ethnic group and have no distinct culture.

It's not a fallacy; it was the majority view amongst Jewish people at least until the second world war. The Zionist "re-write" of history makes out there was an "eternal yearning amongst the Jewish people to return to their homeland from which they were exiled" whereas in actual fact the opposite was the case. From the 12th to the 19th century there was absolutely no restrictions placed on Jewish settlement anywhere within the Levant. Jewish people in the rest of the world have had the opportunity to settle in Palestine for the last 600+ years and didn't take it. Why? Because they were natives of their own countries who just happened to follow a particular religion.

Lord Montague (a member of one of the most powerful Jewish famillies in Britain, along with the Rotheschilds and Montifiores) sums up the majority view in his response to Balfour in 1917, (remarkably prophetic of him):

"I assert that there is not a Jewish nation. The members of my family, for instance, who have been in this country for generations, have no sort or kind of community of view or of desire with any Jewish family in any other country beyond the fact that they profess to a greater or less degree the same religion. It is no more true to say that a Jewish Englishman and a Jewish Moor are of the same nation than it is to say that a Christian Englishman and a Christian Frenchman are of the same nation: of the same race, perhaps, traced back through the centuries – through centuries of the history of a peculiarly adaptable race. The Prime Minister and M. Briand are, I suppose, related through the ages, one as a Welshman and the other as a Breton, but they certainly do not belong to the same nation.

When the Jews are told that Palestine is their national home, every country will immediately desire to get rid of its Jewish citizens, and you will find a population in Palestine driving out its present inhabitants, taking all the best in the country, drawn from all quarters of the globe, speaking every language on the face of the earth, and incapable of communicating with one another except by means of an interpreter. I have always understood that this was the consequence of the building of the Tower of Babel, if ever it was built, and I certainly do not dissent from the view, commonly held, as I have always understood, by the Jews before Zionism was invented, that to bring the Jews back to form a nation in the country from which they were dispersed would require Divine leadership. I have never heard it suggested, even by their most fervent admirers, that either Mr. Balfour or Lord Rothschild would prove to be the Messiah. I claim that the lives that British Jews have led, that the aims that they have had before them, that the part that they have played in our public life and our public institutions, have entitled them to be regarded, not as British Jews, but as Jewish Britons. I would willingly disfranchise every Zionist. I would be almost tempted to proscribe the Zionist organisation as illegal and against the national interest. But I would ask of a British Government sufficient tolerance to refuse a conclusion which makes aliens and foreigners by implication, if not at once by law, of all their Jewish fellow-citizens.

I deny that Palestine is to-day associated with the Jews or properly to be regarded as a fit place for them to live in. The Ten Commandments were delivered to the Jews on Sinai. It is quite true that Palestine plays a large part in Jewish history, but so it does in modern Mahommendan history, and, after the time of the Jews, surely it plays a larger part than any other country in Christian history. The Temple may have been in Palestine, but so was the Sermon on the Mount and the Crucifixion. I would not deny to Jews in Palestine equal rights to colonisation with those who profess other religions, but a religious test of citizenship seems to me to be the only admitted by those who take a bigoted and narrow view of one particular epoch of the history of Palestine, and claim for the Jews a position to which they are not entitled. If my memory serves me right, there are three times as many Jews in the world as could possible get into Palestine if you drove out all the population that remains there now. So that only one-third will get back at the most, and what will happen to the remainder?

I can easily understand the editors of the Morning Post and of the New Witness being Zionists, and I am not in the least surprised that the non-Jews of England may welcome this policy. I have always recognised the unpopularity, much greater than some people think, of my community. We have obtained a far greater share of this country’s goods and opportunities than we are numerically entitled to. We reach on the whole maturity earlier, and therefore with people of our own age we compete unfairly. Many of us have been exclusive in our friendships and intolerant in our attitude, and I can easily understand that many a non-Jew in England wants to get rid of us. But just as there is no community of thought and mode of life among Christian Englishmen, so there is not among Jewish Englishmen. More and more we are educated in public schools and at the Universities, and take our part in the politics, in the Army, in the Civil Service, of our country. And I am glad to think that the prejudices against inter-marriage are breaking down.

But when the Jew has a national home, surely it follows that the impetus to deprive us of the rights of British citizenship must be enormously increased. Palestine will become the world’s Ghetto. Why should the Russian give the Jew equal rights? His national home is Palestine. Why does Lord Rothschild attach so much importance to the difference between British and foreign Jews? All Jews will be foreign Jews, inhabitants of the great country of Palestine. I do not know how the fortunate third will be chosen, but the Jew will have the choice, whatever country he belongs to, whatever country he loves, whatever country he regards himself as an integral part of, between going to live with people who are foreigners to him, but to whom his Christian fellow-countrymen have told him he shall belong, and of remaining as an unwelcome guest in the country that he thought he belonged to."

Memorandum of Edwin Montagu on the Anti-Semitism of the Present (British) Government | The Balfour Project

Apparently Zionists were considered anti-Semitic in those days.

Unfortunately, this argument fails before if has even begun due to the cultural qualities I have already listed which clearly demonstrate that the Jewish people have a distinct culture apart from and in addition to the religion.

So what "cultural qualities" make Jewish people "unique" that don't stem from their religious practices?

 

[Challenger]

Certainly. Palestinians are those people indigenous to the politico-geographic area called Palestine, regardless of their religion.

Define "indigenous" in this context. What criteria determines whether or not a group is "indigenous"?

Already have done, but you'll need to go back through this thread to find out where as I can't be bothered to repeat myself.

 

[Challenger]

Gotcha

So you admit that there is absolutely nothing unique about these so called palestinians other than geopolitical location.

Point out to me please where I ever said there was. I've no idea what shit you are on, but it seems to be really good stuff.

 

[Boston1]

Gotcha

So you admit that there is absolutely nothing unique about these so called palestinians other than geopolitical location.

Point out to me please where I ever said there was. I've no idea what shit you are on, but it seems to be really good stuff.

Quote

Gotcha

So you admit that there is absolutely nothing unique about these so called palestinians other than geopolitical location.

And my favorite part, according to the UNWRA persons wishing to register as palestinians only need have resided in the area for a period of 2 years. WOW

IE they are in no way a distinct or unique culture or people indigenous to the area. They are just more Arab Muslims who just happen to be there at a given time in history. An extremely select time I might add.

Took you long enough

So now that thats settled we can move on to indigenous characteristics

Which are that someone have actual ties to the land, which doesn't include having immigrated to it like the Arab Muslims did thousands of years AFTER a race and culture already developed there, the Judiac people.

End Quote

Pathetic, so now your going to argue that you never said the pali's were indigenous to Israel.

I thought you said you were a master-debater ( oops autocorrect is at it again ) Cause flip flopping isn't exactly a well founded technique among the more rational among us.

 

[Shusha]

It's not a fallacy; it was the majority view amongst Jewish people at least until the second world war. The Zionist "re-write" of history makes out there was an "eternal yearning amongst the Jewish people to return to their homeland from which they were exiled" whereas in actual fact the opposite was the case.

You are just plain wrong here. The return from exile back to our homeland is a constant theme running through all the texts and commentaries. It is a meritous act to live in Israel. The very last words of the Tanakh are: Whoever there is among you of His entire people -- may HASHEM his God be with him, and let him go up! (make aliyah). The Ramban included it in his enumeration of the 613 mitzvot. The Talmud states that if a spouse wishes to live in Israel, one is obligated to go and if you choose not to -- it is grounds for divorce. And in the commentary it is said that this one commandment has the worth of all the other commandments combined.

The words "Next year in Jerusalem!" have been spoken for well over a thousand years.

But even so -- this is all beside the point. The Jewish people don't need to prove a thousands-year-long desire to return to their homeland in order to be considered a people. The Jewish people, just like every other people has the right to self-determination on ancestral lands. Your denying that right doesn't actually change that.

So what "cultural qualities" make Jewish people "unique" that don't stem from their religious practices?

What "cultural qualities" make ANY people "unique"? Why must cultural qualities be divorced from religion to be valid? Other than your poor excuse to deny the Jewish people rights that you would give any other ethnic group?

 

[Challenger]

Pathetic, so now your going to argue that you never said the pali's were indigenous to Israel.

Why should I? the Palestinians are indigenous to the territory that includes, for the moment, the Zionist paradise, which was created by European colonists in 1948; the so called "state of Israel". Now you are just making things up.

I thought you said you were a master-debater ( oops autocorrect is at it again ) Cause flip flopping isn't exactly a well founded technique among the more rational among us.

No. something else you are making up. Anyway the title of master-debater surely falls to you, you are so very good at it (I see what you mean about autocorrect...)

 

[Challenger]

You are just plain wrong here.

Am I? I don't think so. This book, one of several available, goes into the conflict amongst mainstream Jewish groups and Zionists prior to the drafting and issuing of the Balfour letter in 1917 The Balfour Declaration: The Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict: Amazon.co.uk: Jonathan Schneer: 9781408809709: Books

The words "Next year in Jerusalem!" have been spoken for well over a thousand years.

Interesting assertion, here's an interesting article about that from the "My Jewish Learning" website on this topic, I read the whole article butthis bit encapsulates Jewish thought throughout for most of history; spiritual redemption. Of course, the rise of Zionism and Jewish nationalism in the late 19th century created different interpretations which the article also goes into:

"What, then, does it mean for today’s Jew to utter the words “next year in Jerusalem” at the end of every Passover seder?

Redemption, Past & Future

The most straightforward answer is that “Jerusalem” refers to the future city–and its Temple–rebuilt when the Messiah comes. Most traditional Jews feel quite comfortable expressing this messianic longing at the end of the seder, just as at the end of each Shabbat Jews recite the hope that the Messiah should come “speedily in our day.” ...

Although the phrase itself entered the Haggadah only in the Middle Ages, it resonates thematically with ancient biblical themes of past and future redemption. On the seder night, each participant has personally experienced the physical redemption at that Red Sea. As the Haggadah says, “For it was not our forefathers alone whom the Holy One redeemed; He redeemed us, too, with them,” and, “In every generation, every individual must feel as if he or she personally had come out of Egypt.” Then, as we end the seder, we utter this phrase that reaches forward to the coming of the Messiah and to complete spiritual redemption, represented by Jerusalem." Next Year in Jerusalem

This goes a long way to explain why for over 600 years Jewish people did not all migrate to the Levant to create a significant Jewish presense there; they were all natives of their own countries and like Lord Montague considered themselves English, French, German, etc. Just like English, French, German Catholics or Protestants did. The idea and concept of Jewish people as an ethnicity was created in the 19th century by Zionists.

What "cultural qualities" make ANY people "unique"? Why must cultural qualities be divorced from religion to be valid?

Now you are arguing against yourself; in one post you list all the "cultural qualities" that make Jewish people "unique", now you say these "qualities" are irrelevant.

Other than your poor excuse to deny the Jewish people rights that you would give any other ethnic group?

If the Jewish people were in fact an ethnic group, you might conceivably have a point.