Then they hypocritically cry "civilians" and "genocide[sic]"

[rylah]

Caliphate? Where are they from?

Didn't take long before "Free Palestine" mobs start mimicking Hamas.

As they say in French... Aluluhu Sheikhebar!

 

[Matted Joybeard]

Your antisemitism is showing with that anti-Israel lie. The Palestinians rejected all sorts of chances for their own state.

Israel's Enduring Quest for Peace

Following the brutal Hamas massacre on October 7, any discussion of peace between Israelis and Palestinians or a two-state solution seems like a very distant reality amid the Israel-Hamas War. Here is an overview of known efforts undertaken by Israeli leaders in the pursuit of security and peace.

www.ajc.org

They were being offered a quasi state versus the control that independent states enjoy the world over and it got turned down, yes. A state with qualifications.

 

[candycorn]

Interesting outside the box thinking and realistic concerns.

Problems that I see though, are this:

At the time they held an election (which was a mistake and an indicator of the same hubris displayed in Afghanistan and Iraq that that all you needed for democracy was the vote). the majority of Palestinians, including Gaza, supported a 2-state solution and recognition of Israel, at least according to a poll I read. What happened? Doesn't that weaken the broadly applied narrative of Palestinians always being so bloodthirsty?

Israel must have security, the same as any nation, but it appears to be imo, willing to risk that in favor of long term policies aimed at consolidating it's hold on the Occuppied Territories and reducing any probability of Palestinian autonomy while expecting the unqualified support of it's allies.

West Bank has long been regarded as more moderate and secular, but this might be changing. Netanayahu's open repuduation now, of 2 states (a repudation that is not new, just out in the open) leaves the Palestinians with what sort of future? Is the status quo of an occupation, with it's very unequal system of justice etc. sustainable?

Unless there is some movent towards Palestinian rights, there will be more violence. You can't keep kicking the can down the road.

The only hope is that over time the old wounds just heal themselves. That is the only real hope. This action by Hamas just set the clock back years if not decades for that to happen.

 

[Shusha]

How many dead children is too many?

I think it is important to understand what morals we are weighing here when we ask, "how many"?

The proportionality is not weighted between how many have already died and how many more will be enough to balance the scales. The proportionality is weighted between how many will die now in order to prevent any more future deaths.

It is terrible to think about this, especially when considering the children. It was not something the Jewish people wanted or asked for. But here we are. We know where this road leads. We have been here before. We are not going to allow this to happen to our people again. Not if we can prevent it. And we can prevent it. And so we will.

BUT - and you must not leave this out of the weighing - so can the people of Gaza. They have the ability to endure not one more death. Not one. Surrender. Release the hostages. Give up violence. Choose water.

 

[Shusha]

They were being offered a quasi state versus the control that independent states enjoy the world over and it got turned down, yes. A state with qualifications.

Yes. There is a cost to continued unnecessary violence. One of the requirements of modern Statehood is to be able to live in peace with other States. The Palestinian inability (or lack of desire) to control "resistance" by factions within their populations is what is holding them back from achieving Statehood. Israel has every right to, and is going to, insist on security before removing some form of military control.

What is happening in Gaza right now is proof that independence without security for Israel is harmful for everyone.

 

[Shusha]

How many dead children is too many?

It is a good question to ask Hamas and all others chanting "from the river to the sea". By now, they are well aware of the cost of "resistance". How many will be too many for them?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Agree with that.

Then what?

Then nothing changes until the Palestinians abandon their ambition to destroy Israel, but I see no possibility of that happening for the foreseeable future. Not all problems have good solutions.

 

[toomuchtime_]

18, 000 Palestinians dead. Over 6,000 children.
What did they do to deserve this? Or do they not “count” in your calculous because they are Muslim?

How many dead children is too many?

When is the time to think about Palestinian rights?

You can’t keep putting it off and pretending it doesn’t exist.







How many dead children are too many?

How many dead children are too many? That's a question you should be asking the Palestinians who use their own children as human shields.

 

[Coyote]

It is a good question to ask Hamas and all others chanting "from the river to the sea". By now, they are well aware of the cost of "resistance". How many will be too many for them?

Hamas doesn’t care. That’s evident.

What about those shouting for the extermination of the Palestinians? (lots of those here on USMB).

Is there a point at which the cost in innocent lives becomes too high to justify the force being used?

 

[Coyote]

How many dead children are too many? That's a question you should be asking the Palestinians who use their own children as human shields.

Palestinians are not using their children as human shields unless you are referring to Hamas.

 

[Coyote]

Then nothing changes until the Palestinians abandon their ambition to destroy Israel, but I see no possibility of that happening for the foreseeable future. Not all problems have good solutions.

Except they had largely abandoned it in favor of a two state solution that the settlements have made a mockery of.

 

[Coyote]

I think it is important to understand what morals we are weighing here when we ask, "how many"?

The proportionality is not weighted between how many have already died and how many more will be enough to balance the scales. The proportionality is weighted between how many will die now in order to prevent any more future deaths.

I disagree. First, it isn’t balancing scales, unless you are talking about retribution which some here clearly are.

You can’t measure “future deaths”.

At some point the force being used is so disproportionate that the goal becomes questionable. I read that approximately a third of the casualties occurred in the southern parts of Gaza where they told to flee too and even as they were fleeing.

Israel IS and has shown itself to be capable of extremely targeted hits with relatively low civilian casualties. Not now.

It is terrible to think about this, especially when considering the children. It was not something the Jewish people wanted or asked for. But here we are. We know where this road leads. We have been here before. We are not going to allow this to happen to our people again. Not if we can prevent it. And we can prevent it. And so we will.

BUT - and you must not leave this out of the weighing - so can the people of Gaza. They have the ability to endure not one more death. Not one. Surrender. Release the hostages. Give up violence. Choose water.

The people of Gaza? What can they against Hamas when Hamas kills dissenters and threatens their families?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Palestinians are not using their children as human shields unless you are referring to Hamas.

That is a false dichotomy. Recent polls show 75% of Palestinians support Hamas' Oct 7 attack, so with respect to Israel, there is no valid distinction between Hamas and the "Palestinians." The Palestinian people know full well that an attack on Israel will bring devastation to Gaza, and they know Hamas has provided no bomb shelters and has embedded military assets in residential areas, making these sites legal targets under International Humanitarian Low and making them and their children human shields, yet 75% of them support the attack.

These people are not victims, they are fanatical aggressors who are willing to sacrifice everything, including their own children, for a chance to strike out against Israel.

Palestinians in Gaza, West Bank strongly support Hamas, October 7 attack

A total of 75% of respondents agreed with the October 7 attack and 74.7% agreed that they support a single Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.”

www.jpost.com

 

[Coyote]

That is a false dichotomy. Recent polls show 75% of Palestinians support Hamas' Oct 7 attack, so with respect to Israel, there is no valid distinction between Hamas and the "Palestinians."

Recent polls occurred after the Gaza death toll exceeded 18,000 (some 6,000 of whom were children) and much of Gaza reduced to rubble.

How did you think they would feel at that point?

The day before Oct 7…

Most Gaza Residents Do Not Support Hamas, According to Poll Conducted a Day Before October 7 Attacks – Arab Barometer

www.arabbarometer.org

Palestinians are not some undifferentiated mass and public regarding Hamas and coexistence with Israel is not so black and white.

Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Amaney Jamal

The Nov. 3, 2023, episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”

www.nytimes.com

The Palestinian people know full well that an attack on Israel will bring devastation to Gaza, and they know Hamas has provided no bomb shelters and has embedded military assets in residential areas, making these sites legal targets under International Humanitarian Low and making them and their children human shields, yet 75% of them support the attack.

ya. They support it now that their own death toll is over 18,000, you think they are going to love Israel?

These people are not victims, they are fanatical aggressors who are willing to sacrifice everything, including their own children, for a chance to strike out against Israel.

Palestinians in Gaza, West Bank strongly support Hamas, October 7 attack

A total of 75% of respondents agreed with the October 7 attack and 74.7% agreed that they support a single Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.”

www.jpost.com

Disagree.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Recent polls occurred after the Gaza death toll exceeded 18,000 (some 6,000 of whom were children) and much of Gaza reduced to rubble.

How did you think they would feel at that point?

The day before Oct 7…

Most Gaza Residents Do Not Support Hamas, According to Poll Conducted a Day Before October 7 Attacks – Arab Barometer

www.arabbarometer.org

Palestinians are not some undifferentiated mass and public regarding Hamas and coexistence with Israel is not so black and white.

Transcript: Ezra Klein Interviews Amaney Jamal

The Nov. 3, 2023, episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”

www.nytimes.com

ya. They support it because their own death toll is over 18,000, you think they are going to love Israel?




Disagree.

Polls taken before Oct 7 concerned whether the people preferred to be governed by the PA or Hamas, but the poll I posted a link to was taken after the Oct 7 massacre but before the major ground assault began, and 75% of the Palestinians supported that attack and supported the destruction of Israel, and the poll shows there is no difference between the people in Gaza and those in the West Bank with regard to their determination to destroy Israel. With regard to Israel the Palestinians are a great undifferentiated mass, and there has never been a time since the British took over Palestine that they were not.

 

[Shusha]

You can’t measure “future deaths”.

You can.

9 million Jews in Israel.
15 million Jews worldwide.
17 million Jews who should have existed, but don't because of the Holocaust.

When they say they are coming for us a second time, and a third, and a fourth, and again, and again, and will keep coming for us a million times, as many times as necessary, we believe them. That's how you measure the future.

 

[Shusha]

Except they had largely abandoned it in favor of a two state solution that the settlements have made a mockery of.

What resistance to the settlements has demonstrated is the unrelenting policy of "empty of Jews". Whether by ethnic cleansing or by slaughter, there is no wavering on this point. And do not @ me that Jews or Israelis want the same thing. There are 2 million proofs against it in Israeli-controlled territories, and none - ZERO - as counter-proof in Arab-controlled territories.

 

[Shusha]

The people of Gaza? What can they against Hamas when Hamas kills dissenters and threatens their families?

There are two things that I am WAY done with in the aftermath of the atrocity that occurred on October 7.

The first is trying to draw a moral equivalence between "but Israel denies them po-ta-to chips" and roasting infants alive in ovens.

The second is the idea that the people of Gaza have a choice between committing unspeakable atrocities or sitting helplessly and waiting for someone to kill them as though there are no other options.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Except they had largely abandoned it in favor of a two state solution that the settlements have made a mockery of.

In fact, it was the Palestinians who made a mockery of the "two state solution" by responding to Israel's offer of 93% of the territories by launching the second intifada. Why would you say such a ridiculous thing when Arafat made it clear he was not interested in two states and Hamas has been consistent in asserting it would settle for nothing less than all of Israel, the pro Palestinians mobs rampaging through the streets of Europe and the US demand all the land from the river to the sea?

 

[surada]

Silly stuff. There has not been a moment since 1920 when the Palestinians have shown any interest in peace with Israel. Oslo was a European fairy tale that completely ignored the reality that the Palestinians want to destroy Jews/Israel, not live in peace with them. Two states living side by side in peace is a crock of shit. The only path to peace now lies in destroying Hamas and all the other terrorist gangs and their weapons and monitoring activities in Gaza to prevent them from ever reorganizing.

Theodore Herzl said they would have to get rid of the Palestinians to have a Jewish state.