Then they hypocritically cry "civilians" and "genocide[sic]"

[Weatherman2020]

Yes Herzl did say that. Read his diaries.
and ongoing expansion of the settlements have led to Israel's policies being criticized as an example of settler colonialism.[13][14][15][16][17][e]

Israel has been accused of major violations of international human rights law, including collective punishment, in its administration of the occupied Palestinian territories.[f]

Israeli settlers and civilians living or traveling through the West Bank are subject to Israeli law, and are represented in the Knesset; in contrast, Palestinian civilians, mostly confined to scattered enclaves, are subject to martial law and are not permitted to vote in Israel's national elections.[g] This two-tiered system has caused Israel to be accused of committing apartheid, a charge that Israel rejects entirely.[23][h][24][25][26] Israel's vast military superiority, with a modern army and air force, compared to the Palestinian use of guerilla and terrorist tactics, has led to accusations of war crimes on both sides, with Israel being accused of disproportionality and the Palestinians accused of indiscriminate attacks.

And he’s dead.

Hamas murders their own children TODAY.

 

[Coyote]

Start a war. You pay the consequences. Oh how Palestinians cheered & celebrated when Hamas attacked Israel without any warning killing around 1200 or more Israeli's & visitors while also taking over 200 hostages. I suspect they are not celebrating it now.

Did they?

 

[Shusha]

Yes Herzl did say that. Read his diaries.
and ongoing expansion of the settlements have led to Israel's policies being criticized as an example of settler colonialism.[13][14][15][16][17][e]

Israel has been accused of major violations of international human rights law, including collective punishment, in its administration of the occupied Palestinian territories.[f]

Israeli settlers and civilians living or traveling through the West Bank are subject to Israeli law, and are represented in the Knesset; in contrast, Palestinian civilians, mostly confined to scattered enclaves, are subject to martial law and are not permitted to vote in Israel's national elections.[g] This two-tiered system has caused Israel to be accused of committing apartheid, a charge that Israel rejects entirely.[23][h][24][25][26] Israel's vast military superiority, with a modern army and air force, compared to the Palestinian use of guerilla and terrorist tactics, has led to accusations of war crimes on both sides, with Israel being accused of disproportionality and the Palestinians accused of indiscriminate attacks.

This is not a "two-tiered solution". It is the beginnings of a two-state solution. One where citizens of Israel are under Israeli law and vote in Israeli elections and where citizens of Palestine are under Palestinian law and vote in Palestinian elections. This was established by AGREEMENT between the State of Israel and the should-have-been State of Palestine. This is what makes two states - two states.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Did they?

Watchdog: Schools run by PA celebrated Oct. 7 Hamas massacres

Report reveals school in Jenin closed after onslaught to honor 'martyrs' and decry 'Nazi occupation'; students at a Nablus school drew infamous Hamas paragliders

www.timesofisrael.com

UN Agency Staff Celebrated Oct. 7 Massacre, Part of ‘Terror Strategy’ at Root of Hamas Attack, Watchdog Says - Algemeiner.com

Teachers at Palestinian schools run by the UN agency responsible for Palestinian refugees celebrated Hamas' Oct. 7 massacre against Israel and are part of a "national strategy to commit acts of terror," the head of a watchdog group told The Algemeiner following the release of the group's new...

www.algemeiner.com

Germany officially outlaws Hamas, disbands Samidoun, group that celebrated Oct 7 massacre

***

www.haaretz.com

Anti-Israel Activists Celebrate Hamas Attacks that Have Killed Hundreds of Israelis

Anti-Israel groups express support for Hamas after deadly surprise attack.

www.adl.org

Fringe-Left Groups Express Support for Hamas’s Invasion and Brutal Attacks in Israel

Some fringe-left groups are aligning with anti-Zionist organizations in the wake of Hamas's attack on Israel.

www.adl.org

Arab support for Palestinians swelled by euphoria over Hamas blow to Israel

Across the Middle East, people distribute treats, dance in streets and celebrate in displays of mass support for 'resistance'

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Shusha]

I disagree.

Would you measure Palestinian deaths in the same way? Worldwide? I wouldn't. That kind of thinking opens the door to "any means" is ok.

You can't change the past. You can only effect the future and the Palestinians have to be part of that future as well.

You keep trying to tit-for-tat this, as though everything is measured and weighed equally. The Jewish people have been subjected to the most horrific calls for complete extermination. Those calls have been followed by actual, real, horrific exterminations. This has happened over thousands of years. And now it is happening again. The intent of the Jewish people, through the State of Israel, the one place of safety where we have the political will and capability to act, is to prevent such acts and, where prevention fails, to dismantle the ability to harm and exterminate Jews.

The point I was making with the post was that Israel must take away the ability of Hamas to fulfill its promise to return for a second, and a third, and a millionth time. Hamas must not be permitted to carry out its promised extermination.

There is no equivalent concern in Gaza.

 

[Lisa558]

What is wrong with you? For over 100 years, right down to today, the Palestinians have been actively and openly trying to exterminate or expel the Jews, and now in your twisted imagination it's the Jews who are trying to do that to the Palestinians.

The leftists have everything upside down. Palestinians scream “death to Jews!,” support the HAMAS massacre of Jews, and make no secret of their wish to eliminate Israel and exterminate ALL her Jews….while Israel does what it can to limit Palestinian civilian deaths….and this is AFTER their leaders massacred 1400 innocent Jews in the most barbaric and agonizing ways possible….and still we have leftists accusing Jews of wanting to exterminate the Palestinians. There’s no reasoning with them.

 

[Shusha]

That is a convenient way to excuse what has long been Israeli pomicy regarding solidifying its control of it's occupied territory and is a substantial negation of a two state solution.

Ethnic cleansing? So it is ok because the other side does it? is that your logic?

A two-state solution can create borders anywhere it wants. The presence of Jews is not actually a hindrance to a Palestinian State. Actually, it is better to have a mixed Arab/Jewish population in both States, imo.

It seems to be the opinion of your side, and certainly the Palestinians, that they can not accept a State with any Jews in their territory. So, the ethnic cleansing is all on your side, requiring the removal of Jews from any future Palestinian State. And they are using this "requirement" to stall the formation of their State and claim victimhood.

 

[Shusha]

That is a seriously dishonest comparison.

I KNOW it is. That is why I made it. The false narrative of the Palestinians and their plight is not equivalent to the existential threat to and atrocities committed on the Jewish people. I am very tired of this attempt to create a moral equivalency when there is none.

You ard collectively assigning blame and responsibility to the entire population.

That is the logic terrorists use when they justify attacking civilians!

Most Palestinians are not committing atrocities, they just want to live. Hamas has a reputation for killing and torturing informers, dissenters etc and their families. israel has sustematically weakened the PA and unintentionally strengthened Hamas, while gobbling up land with it's settlement policy and is now openly allowing settler violence on the WB...regardless of how peaceful or violent they Palestinians are. What exact options do they that they should choose? I am not saying they are entirely helpless or free from the consequences of their own choices, but you keep sripping aeay Israel's actions that are directly provocative.

Most Palestinians support the atrocities. And yes, there is a collective will, and a collective responsibility for that. Those who one-sidely support Palestinians continue to make excuses and justify the Palestinian's inability to make different choices and take responsibility for their actions. If they want a different life, they need to make a different life. They can't keep blaming everything on Israel. Especially in Gaza, where they have complete freedom. Does that mean that the population of Gaza will have to fight Hamas? It sure might. Is that going to suck? It sure will.

 

[Matted Joybeard]

Yes. There is a cost to continued unnecessary violence. One of the requirements of modern Statehood is to be able to live in peace with other States. The Palestinian inability (or lack of desire) to control "resistance" by factions within their populations is what is holding them back from achieving Statehood. Israel has every right to, and is going to, insist on security before removing some form of military control.

What is happening in Gaza right now is proof that independence without security for Israel is harmful for everyone.

Thanks for corroborating that the Palestinians were not really offered a state.

 

[Weatherman2020]

This is not a "two-tiered solution". It is the beginnings of a two-state solution. One where citizens of Israel are under Israeli law and vote in Israeli elections and where citizens of Palestine are under Palestinian law and vote in Palestinian elections. This was established by AGREEMENT between the State of Israel and the should-have-been State of Palestine. This is what makes two states - two states.

2 State solution:
Israel and the cemetery in the SW corner.

 

[AZrailwhale]

18, 000 Palestinians dead. Over 6,000 children.
What did they do to deserve this? Or do they not “count” in your calculous because they are Muslim?

How many dead children is too many?

When is the time to think about Palestinian rights?

You can’t keep putting it off and pretending it doesn’t exist.







How many dead children are too many?

The civilian casualties in Gaza are the direct responsibility of Hamas, they are the ones violating international law by using their own civilians as human shields.

 

[Weatherman2020]

The civilian casualties in Gaza are the direct responsibility of Hamas, they are the ones violating international law by using their own civilians as human shields.

There are no civilians in Gaza.

 

[AZrailwhale]

I disagree. First, it isn’t balancing scales, unless you are talking about retribution which some here clearly are.

You can’t measure “future deaths”.

At some point the force being used is so disproportionate that the goal becomes questionable. I read that approximately a third of the casualties occurred in the southern parts of Gaza where they told to flee too and even as they were fleeing.

Israel IS and has shown itself to be capable of extremely targeted hits with relatively low civilian casualties. Not now.










The people of Gaza? What can they against Hamas when Hamas kills dissenters and threatens their families?

In war disproportionate power should always be used. A commander, or civilian leader who isn’t using every ounce of force available to him is betraying his troops. The aim should always be a lopsided victory with as many enemy casualties and as few friendly casualties as is humanly possible. Lyndon frigging Johnson was a perfect example of failing to honor that. He deliberately cost the deaths of countless American soldiers and Airmen trying to “send messages” the the PRVN leadership. According to Robert McNamara, LBJ never had any intention of winning the Vietnam War.

 

[Coyote]

I KNOW it is. That is why I made it. The false narrative of the Palestinians and their plight is not equivalent to the existential threat to and atrocities committed on the Jewish people. I am very tired of this attempt to create a moral equivalency when there is none.

It is not a false narrative nor is a conflict with the state of Israel and Hamas an existential threat to the Jewish people worldwide. When push comes to shove, the Palestinian narrative gets labeled “false” and swept under the rug. AGAIN.

Most Palestinians support the atrocities.

That was debatable before Israel began it’s offensive in Gaza.

And yes, there is a collective will, and a collective responsibility for that. Those who one-sidely support Palestinians continue to make excuses and justify the Palestinian's inability to make different choices and take responsibility for their actions. If they want a different life, they need to make a different life.

And how about those who one-sidedly support Israel and make excuses for the Israeli and isactions that are partly responsible for this? Maybe they could have reined in the provocative settlements? Done something about the ongoing settler violence that the IDF is even participating in? Ended the occupation years ago? Put Jewish terrorists under the same system as Palestinian terrorists?

They can't keep blaming everything on Israel. Especially in Gaza, where they have complete freedom. Does that mean that the population of Gaza will have to fight Hamas? It sure might. Is that going to suck? It sure will.

 

[Coyote]

A two-state solution can create borders anywhere it wants. The presence of Jews is not actually a hindrance to a Palestinian State. Actually, it is better to have a mixed Arab/Jewish population in both States, imo.

I agree and I don’t agree. Borders need to take into account resources, ethnic groups, freedom of movement and contiguity. That is assuming you want two thriving states.

I 100% agree on your last statement but there is no way that is going to happen in the foreseeable future

It seems to be the opinion of your side, and certainly the Palestinians, that they can not accept a State with any Jews in their territory.

MY side? Where do you get that from? I totally support a mixture of populations. But I am also a realist enough to there is zero trust between the two sides to guarantee any safety for them, particularly for Jews, in the current climate. The reality of it is that if a Palestinian is created today it would not be safe for Jews until enough time has passed for a normalization of relations.

So, the ethnic cleansing is all on your side, requiring the removal of Jews from any future Palestinian State. And they are using this "requirement" to stall the formation of their State and claim victimhood.

That’s a complete copout. Your side is absolutely unwilling to give up any land currently occupied by Jews to another state (their “facts on the ground”). It has been systematically pushing Palestinians out of Jerusalem and given “settlers” free rein to expand at will and drive out resident Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

You keep trying to tit-for-tat this, as though everything is measured and weighed equally. The Jewish people have been subjected to the most horrific calls for complete extermination. Those calls have been followed by actual, real, horrific exterminations. This has happened over thousands of years. And now it is happening again. The intent of the Jewish people, through the State of Israel, the one place of safety where we have the political will and capability to act, is to prevent such acts and, where prevention fails, to dismantle the ability to harm and exterminate Jews.

The point I was making with the post was that Israel must take away the ability of Hamas to fulfill its promise to return for a second, and a third, and a millionth time. Hamas must not be permitted to carry out its promised extermination.

There is no equivalent concern in Gaza.

I measure lives equally.

 

[Shusha]

Thanks for corroborating that the Palestinians were not really offered a state.

It's not a Tiffany-blue-wrapped-and-ribboned box you get handed because you asked your sugar daddy for a State. You build a State. You negotiate a State with your neighbors. You engage in acts of Statehood. Acts of war and belligerence demonstrate that you are not ready to live in peace with your neighbors, which is actually a requirement of Statehood. In order to become a full State of Palestine, their government needs to demonstrate - as a condition of Statehood - their ability to keep peace with neighboring States. That can be done before official Statehood, with a concerted effort on the part of Palestine to control "resistance" to Israel, or it can be after official Statehood, with some military supervision by Israel in the meantime. Why is everyone so unable to trust in the ability of Palestinians to build a State?

 

[Shusha]

Borders need to take into account resources, ethnic groups, freedom of movement and contiguity. That is assuming you want two thriving states.

We agree. And a negotiated peace agreement between two States will take all those things into account. But this is why soundbites like "end the occupation" are counter-productive. Israel can not unilaterally "end the occupation". (Witness Gaza). It's literally impossible. The only solution is a negotiated peace treaty.

 

[Shusha]

I measure lives equally.

As do I. I do not measure the extermination another people as of equal value to, well ... anything at all.

 

[Shusha]

That’s a complete copout. Your side is absolutely unwilling to give up any land currently occupied by Jews to another state (their “facts on the ground”). It has been systematically pushing Palestinians out of Jerusalem and given “settlers” free rein to expand at will and drive out resident Palestinians.

You mean like we didn't give up control of our most Holy Place? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't give up Gaza? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't give up Areas A and B? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't agree to negotiate a deal with 95% of the land the Palestinians claimed they wanted? Again, and again, and again? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get.

We forcibly removed 10,000 Israeli citizens from Gaza (ethnic cleansing) so that Gaza would accept the peace and not slaughter those that remained without Israeli protection. And still, it did not bring peace.