Then they hypocritically cry "civilians" and "genocide[sic]"

[toomuchtime_]

I agree that the Palestinians need a leader who can speak for them and be accountable. Maybe Marwan Barghouti It would not be the first time a former terrorist became a political leader.





Well, Netanyahu has certainly made sure the PA was weak and ineffective in the West Bank and Hamas strong in Gaza..





Hamas massacred civilians.

Disabuse yourself of the notion that you are being clever. What the Palestinians need, if there are ever to be meaningful negotiations, is some one who can credibly offer peace to Israel, not some one who can speak for them and be accountable.

The PA was too weak to hold on to Gaza long before Netanyahu became PM and Hamas is strong because as we have seen, the overwhelming majority of Palestinians support Hamas' commitment to destroy Israel even to the extent of offering up their own children to be "martyrs" to the cause of destroying Israel.

 

[Coyote]

This source has an intetesting analysis of the current situation and essentially says that a two state solution is dead…which has been the case really, for a while and was openly stated by Netanyahu’s government. It also points out that Israel DID offer meaningful concessions in it’s withdrawal from Gaza, so I’m unfair in my comments on that.

There Is a More Meaningful and Immediate Option​

This does not mean that a more meaningful effort to negotiate more meaningful and practical peace efforts is not worth trying. What it does mean is that it may be far more important to try to create immediate steps to create a more stable “no-state” solution.

One such option is to put international pressure on the Israeli government to halt the expansion of settlements and ease restrictions on the civil life of some estimates indicate around 1.9 million Palestinians in Israel proper and more than two million in the West Bank. Another is to exert pressure on Israel to limit its postwar economic isolation of Gaza’s two million residents while recognizing that Israel does have very real new internal security needs. It seems equally important to ensure that the present arrangements for Jordan’s role in support of the Al Aqsa Mosque continue, along with the restrictions on Israeli religious ceremonies on the Temple Mount.

At the same time, it will be critical to minimize any “blame games” by the U.S. and international community that hold either Israel or all the Palestinians to blame for the current crisis. U.S. and international community need to focus on steps that will limit the impact of Hamas’s invasion and Israel’s war in Gaza and this aftermath.

The key near-term approach to such an effort to ease the risks of a “no-state solution” may be international efforts to offer major new postwar aid and opportunities to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank on a conditional basis. Offering such aid to the Palestinians, supported by active efforts to ensure human rights in ways that did not cripple Israel’s internal security programs, would at least offer a tangible way to move toward a more stable peace.

The present levels of poverty and unemployment in Gaza have made popular support of Hamas and violence all too serious, and Israel’s future wartime and postwar security efforts will almost certainly make this situation far worse. The same may be true to a lesser extent of the war’s impact on Israeli and Palestinian actions in the West Bank. Once again, the gap between Israel and West Bank incomes and employment opportunities is a key source of its tensions and violence.
At the same time, such international aid must be conditional on Palestinian non-violence, on ensuring that it is independent of Israeli political and security interests, and on providing effective outside international management and planning that ensures such aid is used honestly and effectively.
Such efforts clearly will not shape a lasting peace but can have a quick practical and political impact. They deal with the most urgent practical concerns of most Palestinians without affecting the security and income of Israel’s Jewish citizens. In a world where the “no-state” solution seems to be the only practical near-term outcome of the present war for at least several years in the future, aid at least is a potential step forward and a way of bringing a more productive pause in the fighting.

 

[MJB12741]

“my” side calls for the recognition of the state of Israel and the creation of a autonomous Palestinian state or barring that a semi autonomous state with the same rights and protections that Israeli citizens enjoy.

Your side calls for "from the river to the sea." Want a Palestinian State? That isn't going to happen.

 

[toomuchtime_]

And what of the people in Gaza and the West Bank?

When they give up the ambition of destroying Israel, they can give their children the benefits of peace and prosperity instead of just giving them the opportunity to die as martyrs to the cause of trying to destroy Israel.

If you were interested in them as people rather than just as a people to attack Israel, you wouldn't ask such ridiculous questions.

 

[Coyote]

Disabuse yourself of the notion that you are being clever. What the Palestinians need, if there are ever to be meaningful negotiations, is some one who can credibly offer peace to Israel, not some one who can speak for them and be accountable.

The PA was too weak to hold on to Gaza long before Netanyahu became PM and Hamas is strong because as we have seen, the overwhelming majority of Palestinians support Hamas' commitment to destroy Israel even to the extent of offering up their own children to be "martyrs" to the cause of destroying Israel.

Maybe you are not so clever yourself

As I said, it would not be the first time a former terrorist became a substantive leader.

At one time, 58% of the Palestinians supported a mutual recognition of Israel as a state for the Jewish people and Palestine as a state for the Palestinian people.

 

[Coyote]

Your side calls for "from the river to the sea." Want a Palestinian State? That isn't going to happen.

My side does not.

 

[Coyote]

When they give up the ambition of destroying Israel, they can give their children the benefits of peace and prosperity instead of just giving them the opportunity to die as martyrs to the cause of trying to destroy Israel.

If you were interested in them as people rather than just as a people to attack Israel, you wouldn't ask such ridiculous questions.

I gather you are NOT interested in them as people then.

Nice dodge.

 

[Coyote]

It is no secret that the Palestinians claim this is so, but there are no facts to support this claim.

…just expanding settlements.

 

[AZrailwhale]

It is not a false narrative nor is a conflict with the state of Israel and Hamas an existential threat to the Jewish people worldwide. When push comes to shove, the Palestinian narrative gets labeled “false” and swept under the rug. AGAIN.


That was debatable before Israel began it’s offensive in Gaza.





And how about those who one-sidedly support Israel and make excuses for the Israeli and isactions that are partly responsible for this? Maybe they could have reined in the provocative settlements? Done something about the ongoing settler violence that the IDF is even participating in? Ended the occupation years ago? Put Jewish terrorists under the same system as Palestinian terrorists?

Hamas and the other Palestinians ARE the problem. They have been the problem since 1922. No matter what Israel offers, the only solution the Palestinians will accept is a Juden frei Middle East.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Maybe you are not so clever yourself

As I said, it would not be the first time a former terrorist became a substantive leader.

At one time, 58% of the Palestinians supported a mutual recognition of Israel as a state for the Jewish people and Palestine as a state for the Palestinian people.

A substantive leader for what? Can he provide peace to Israel? If not, he is irrelevant to the situation. Unti the Palestinians have a leader who can provide peace to Israel, there can be no meaningful negotiations and no Palestinian state. We both know that is not possible in the foreseeable future, so why do you keep trying to ride this dead horse?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Wasn’t Gaza occupied territory? It wasn’t yours to give up.




Again, occupied territory.

Israel opted to get out of Gaza for purely pragmatic and political reasons. Maintaining a military presence to protect a small number of Israeli’s living in Gaza was economically and politically unsustainable. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, those Israeli’s living in Gaza were settlers who had moved in after Gaza was captured in the 6-Day War. 1,700 families were removed. It is interesting what it has to say about it.

History of Jewish Settlements in Gaza

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The largest group of settlements was the Katif bloc, located along the southern Gaza coastline. These settlements blocked access to the coast from the major Palestinian cities of Khan Yunis and Rafah and cement Israeli control on the Egypt-Gaza border. Another group of settlements (comprising Elei Sinai, Dugit, and Nisanit) were located along Gaza's northern border with Israel, expanding the Israeli presence from the city of Ashkelon (inside Israel) to the edges of Gaza City (the Erez Industrial zone is part of this bloc). Netzarim, Kfar Darom, and Morag were strategically located in the heart of the Gaza Strip (along a north-south axis), creating a framework for Israeli control of the area and its main transportation route, and facilitating Israel's ability to divide the Gaza Strip into separate areas and isolate each area's inhabitants. In addition, the settlements controlled prime agricultural land, some of the area's main aquifers, and approximately one-third of the total Gaza coastline.


I’m not by any means an expert in international law, but if this territory was taken in war and considered occupied territory under international law, why was the Israeli government creating settlements and transferring population not just into it, but into prime real estate and in such a way as to divide and restrict the local population? If those settlers weren’t supposed to be there under international law, how is that ethnic cleansing? Isn’t this the fault of the Israeli government for allowing these settlements to be built on territory that was not part of its state?

For every other country, land won in a war became the property of the winning side.

 

[AZrailwhale]

This source has an intetesting analysis of the current situation and essentially says that a two state solution is dead…which has been the case really, for a while and was openly stated by Netanyahu’s government. It also points out that Israel DID offer meaningful concessions in it’s withdrawal from Gaza, so I’m unfair in my comments on that.

There Is a More Meaningful and Immediate Option​

This does not mean that a more meaningful effort to negotiate more meaningful and practical peace efforts is not worth trying. What it does mean is that it may be far more important to try to create immediate steps to create a more stable “no-state” solution.

One such option is to put international pressure on the Israeli government to halt the expansion of settlements and ease restrictions on the civil life of some estimates indicate around 1.9 million Palestinians in Israel proper and more than two million in the West Bank. Another is to exert pressure on Israel to limit its postwar economic isolation of Gaza’s two million residents while recognizing that Israel does have very real new internal security needs. It seems equally important to ensure that the present arrangements for Jordan’s role in support of the Al Aqsa Mosque continue, along with the restrictions on Israeli religious ceremonies on the Temple Mount.

At the same time, it will be critical to minimize any “blame games” by the U.S. and international community that hold either Israel or all the Palestinians to blame for the current crisis. U.S. and international community need to focus on steps that will limit the impact of Hamas’s invasion and Israel’s war in Gaza and this aftermath.

The key near-term approach to such an effort to ease the risks of a “no-state solution” may be international efforts to offer major new postwar aid and opportunities to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank on a conditional basis. Offering such aid to the Palestinians, supported by active efforts to ensure human rights in ways that did not cripple Israel’s internal security programs, would at least offer a tangible way to move toward a more stable peace.

The present levels of poverty and unemployment in Gaza have made popular support of Hamas and violence all too serious, and Israel’s future wartime and postwar security efforts will almost certainly make this situation far worse. The same may be true to a lesser extent of the war’s impact on Israeli and Palestinian actions in the West Bank. Once again, the gap between Israel and West Bank incomes and employment opportunities is a key source of its tensions and violence.
At the same time, such international aid must be conditional on Palestinian non-violence, on ensuring that it is independent of Israeli political and security interests, and on providing effective outside international management and planning that ensures such aid is used honestly and effectively.
Such efforts clearly will not shape a lasting peace but can have a quick practical and political impact. They deal with the most urgent practical concerns of most Palestinians without affecting the security and income of Israel’s Jewish citizens. In a world where the “no-state” solution seems to be the only practical near-term outcome of the present war for at least several years in the future, aid at least is a potential step forward and a way of bringing a more productive pause in the fighting.

The Gazans have been given more than FIVE BILLION dollars in the last decade. They ignore the strings on it and instead of using it to better their country, they use it to build facilities to attack Israel.

 

[toomuchtime_]

…just expanding settlements.

Which is nonsense. In the 56 years since Israel captured Judea and Samria, the Israeli settlements still only occupy 3.6% of the land. The only thing keeping the Palestinians from moving forward is their refusal to abandon their ambition to destroy Israe.

 

[Matted Joybeard]

It's not a Tiffany-blue-wrapped-and-ribboned box you get handed because you asked your sugar daddy for a State. You build a State. You negotiate a State with your neighbors. You engage in acts of Statehood. Acts of war and belligerence demonstrate that you are not ready to live in peace with your neighbors, which is actually a requirement of Statehood. In order to become a full State of Palestine, their government needs to demonstrate - as a condition of Statehood - their ability to keep peace with neighboring States. That can be done before official Statehood, with a concerted effort on the part of Palestine to control "resistance" to Israel, or it can be after official Statehood, with some military supervision by Israel in the meantime. Why is everyone so unable to trust in the ability of Palestinians to build a State?

Kind of difficult to build a state when your territory is being gobbled up and one of the preconditions for statehood is to be OK and compliant with that. The Israeli government uses the statelessness of the Palestinians and their corresponding lack of rights to inhibit the formation of a Palestinian state.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Kind of difficult to build a state when your territory is being gobbled up and one of the preconditions for statehood is to be OK and compliant with that. The Israeli government uses the statelessness of the Palestinians and their corresponding lack of rights to inhibit the formation of a Palestinian state.

Since in the 56 years Israel has had control of the territories, Israeli settlements only take up 3.6% of Judea and Samaria, the only impediments to building a state the Palestinians have faced is their inability to get along with each other, and since 1920 their refusal to give up their ambition to destroy the Jews/Israel.

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20West%20Bank,area%20of%20the%20West%20Bank.

 

[Sayaras]

Who's narrative should be used? Agree on textbooks issue but is Israel's much better?


Do a people have a right to their own narratives or should those of others be imposed on them?

Best way to combat this in my opinion, is initiatives that bring diverse people together such as higher education.

It's not about "narrative." It's about indoctrination: hate (including libels and nazi inspired cartoons) and genocide.

As documented, for years in:

http://www.palwatch.org

Or:
UNRWA teachers:..

'Wake up Hitler, there are still people to burn,' in Palestinian textbooks

Despite promises to the contrary, UNRWA continues to employ educational staff that routinely advocate hatred and violence against Jews, even going so far as praising Hitler; 'UNRWA is fully culpable in this fiasco,' says UN watchdog

www.ynetnews.com

And here is wider research and actions on that 2001-2021:

Anti-Semitism in Palestinian School Textbooks Table of Contents

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[FDR_Reagan]

פלר חסן נחום Fleur Hassan-Nahoum
@FleurHassanN:
For some reason @SkyNews took down this part of my interview shortly after they shared it. I wonder why ? Thank God for screen recording #hamascommitsgenocide
Nov 28, 2023.



When SkyNews's
Yalda Hakim ("innocently") quotes Jordanian FM about some of the actions "in Gaza could be tantamount to" the G word:

Fleur Hassan-Nahoum:


Well he hasn't looked into law books. International law, first of all obligates a country to defend its country from a massacre. There is no genocide going on, Israel is basically waging a war that it was forced into by the massacre of October the 7th.
We are there to eliminate the infrastructure of Hamas who are actually committing the war crime, by pushing itself into and intricately into the civilian population, under hospitals, under mosques, under schools and under children's bed, we found rockets.
I think that nobody can doubt the evidence that Hamas has inculcated itself within the civilian population in order to use the civilian population to protect themselves.
And so if anybody's is committing a war crime, a double war crime, [it] is Hamas, not Israel.
Israel is very careful. Israel has a whole legal department that checks every single strike before they happen.
And defending your country from an existential threat from Hamas - themselves, their leaders are saying, we're going to do Oct the 7th again, again and again.

So if he looks into the law books he'll understand that what he's saying is wrong.'

 

[Shusha]

Wasn’t Gaza occupied territory? It wasn’t yours to give up.

Incorrect. Not occupied.

Again, occupied territory.

Incorrect. Not occupied.

I’m not by any means an expert in international law, but if this territory was taken in war and considered occupied territory under international law, why was the Israeli government creating settlements and transferring population not just into it, ... allowing these settlements to be built on territory that was not part of its state?

In order to answer that question, you would have to define the legal territories and boundaries that existed in 1948, and know the documents which created those boundaries.

State of Jordan. State of Egypt. State of Israel. State of Palestine. When was each created? What were the boundaries? What document or customary law supports this?

Between 1948 and 1966 who controlled Gaza? Did the controlling State have a legal claim to those territories? If the controlling State (occupier) did NOT have a legal claim to those territories, who did?

Work the same formula for Judea and Samaria.

 

[Shusha]

Israeli settler attacks on West Bank Palestinians have escalated since Oct. 7, UN says

With the world’s attention focused on the fighting in Gaza, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians since Oct. 7 has surged to the highest levels ever recorded by the United Nations.

www.pbs.org

There. Is. No. Moral. Equivalence. Between. This. And. October 7. Stop trying to find one. While, I wholeheartedly believe that any violence committed by Israeli civilians on innocents is abhorrent, inexcusable, and should be met with the full force of the law, this is not the same as the existential threat and sheer brutality of the attack committed by Hamas. Stop.

 

[fncceo]

You create a multi-nationally staffed buffer-zone between the two states to where a common border isn’t shared between Israel and the Palestine Nation. Both nations have observers in this buffer zone.

This has been done before. UN observers between Arab and Jewish territories ran for the hills in 1948 when Arab forces attacked the new state.

More than 1,000 armed UN troops have been in The Golan Heights since 1974 have done nothing to stop Hezbollah attacks on Jews in the region.

The same for UN observers in Jerusalem have sat by and watched as hundreds of Jewish citizens were slaughtered by suicide bombers and other armed attacks.

The UN is a paper kitten (not even close to a tiger) who does nothing to keep Jews (or Arabs) safe.