Then they hypocritically cry "civilians" and "genocide[sic]"

[surada]

You mean like we didn't give up control of our most Holy Place? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't give up Gaza? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't give up Areas A and B? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't agree to negotiate a deal with 95% of the land the Palestinians claimed they wanted? Again, and again, and again? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get.

We forcibly removed 10,000 Israeli citizens from Gaza (ethnic cleansing) so that Gaza would accept the peace and not slaughter those that remained without Israeli protection. And still, it did not bring peace.

PM lobbying Likud MKs, saying only he can prevent a Palestinian state in Gaza, West Bank – report

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

"I am the only one who will prevent a Palestinian state in Gaza and [the West Bank] after the war,” the Kan public broadcaster quotes Netanyahu as having told the lawmakers.

The stance clashes directly with the policy of the Biden administration, which has sought to revive talk of a two-state solution in order to maintain the support of the Arab world, as he continues to offer full-throttled backing of Israel.

 

[Lisa558]

I agree and I don’t agree. Borders need to take into account resources, ethnic groups, freedom of movement and contiguity. That is assuming you want two thriving states.

I 100% agree on your last statement but there is no way that is going to happen in the foreseeable future





MY side? Where do you get that from? I totally support a mixture of populations. But I am also a realist enough to there is zero trust between the two sides to guarantee any safety for them, particularly for Jews, in the current climate. The reality of it is that if a Palestinian is created today it would not be safe for Jews until enough time has passed for a normalization of relations.





That’s a complete copout. Your side is absolutely unwilling to give up any land currently occupied by Jews to another state (their “facts on the ground”). It has been systematically pushing Palestinians out of Jerusalem and given “settlers” free rein to expand at will and drive out resident Palestinians.

1) Why should “my” side give up land when “your” side continues to call for the elimination of Israel and the extermination of all her 9 million Jews?

2) There should be no discussion of this until the Muslim terrorists return all remaining hostages and surrender to the IDF.

3) Let is not forget that Israel made a great land offer to the Arabs, granting them 95% of what they wanted, but it was conditioned on the very reasonable condition that they recognize Israel’s right to exist. They refused.

 

[Coyote]

We agree. And a negotiated peace agreement between two States will take all those things into account. But this is why soundbites like "end the occupation" are counter-productive. Israel can not unilaterally "end the occupation". (Witness Gaza). It's literally impossible. The only solution is a negotiated peace treaty.

We agree. That also means several things.

The Palestinians need to first find one person or group that can speak for them and be accountable.

Israel will need to quit kicking the can down the road working on deliberate demographic change. Israel will slso need to end it's strategy of deliberately weakening the PA.

 

[Lisa558]

We agree. That also means several things.

The Palestinians need to first find one person or group that can speak for them and be accountable.

Israel will need to quit kicking the can down the road working on deliberate demographic change. Israel will slso need to end it's strategy of deliberately weakening the PA.

Let’s talk about it after the Muslim savages return the hostages. Reports are that they are starving to death.

 

[MJB12741]

Did they?

I respect you for wanting to be fair to the Palestinians. However, you are living in a fantasy world. And have you ever seen Israeli's acting like this even now?

 

[Shusha]

We agree. That also means several things.

The Palestinians need to first find one person or group that can speak for them and be accountable.

Israel will need to quit kicking the can down the road working on deliberate demographic change. Israel will slso need to end it's strategy of deliberately weakening the PA.

Yeah, well, except everything changed on October 7. No going back from that now.

 

[MJB12741]

I respect you for wanting to be fair to the Palestinians. However, you are living in a fantasy world. And have you ever seen Israeli's acting like this even now?

I don't suspect the Palestinians & their supporters are celebrating now for their attack on Israel. Reap what you sow.

 

[Coyote]

Yeah, well, except everything changed on October 7. No going back from that now.

Everything changed. And change is needed.

 

[Coyote]

As do I. I do not measure the extermination another people as of equal value to, well ... anything at all.

I agree that genocide is another matter entirely.

But what if one ends up committing genocide to stop genocide?

I do not think that happening to either the Palestinians or the Jewish people (yet) and it is a term thrown out way too lightly (for example by the pro-Palestinian side to describe past Israeli actions towards Palestinians). I also do understand the existential fear felt by the the Jewish people given history and the ugly rise in open anti-semitism all over.

This is an interesting opinion piece on that:

Opinion | What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide

We know from history that it is crucial to warn of the potential for genocide beforehand rather than condemn it afterward. We still have that time.

www.nytimes.com

 

[toomuchtime_]

We agree. That also means several things.

The Palestinians need to first find one person or group that can speak for them and be accountable.

Israel will need to quit kicking the can down the road working on deliberate demographic change. Israel will slso need to end it's strategy of deliberately weakening the PA.

Such nonsense. There can be no meaningful peace negotiations, and therefore no Palestinian state until the Palestinians find someone to lead them that can credibly offer peace to Israel, and there is no rational scenario in which that happens in the foreseeable future when that will happen - certainly the PA would not qualify.

The PA is a funnel for foreign aid to the Palestinians and nothing more. It wouldn't even exist if Israel wasn't hunting down Hamas operatives in Judea and Samaria who would overwhelm the PA otherwise.

There is a war in Gaza right now because the Palestinians massacred Israelis on Oct. 7 in an attempt to change the demographics by destroying Israel, and in all the years since 1967, Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria total only 3.6% of the land in Judea and Samaria, so no one with eyes that can see and a brain that can think can honestly claim Israel is trying to change the demographics.

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20West%20Bank,area%20of%20the%20West%20Bank.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Everything changed. And change is needed.

The change has already occurred; now Israel will maintain security control over both Gaza and Judea and Samaria since there is no rational alternative.

 

[Coyote]

You mean like we didn't give up control of our most Holy Place? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't give up Gaza? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get.

Wasn’t Gaza occupied territory? It wasn’t yours to give up.

You mean like we didn't give up Areas A and B?

Again, occupied territory.

In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get. You mean like we didn't agree to negotiate a deal with 95% of the land the Palestinians claimed they wanted? Again, and again, and again? In exchange for peace. Which we didn't get.

We forcibly removed 10,000 Israeli citizens from Gaza (ethnic cleansing) so that Gaza would accept the peace and not slaughter those that remained without Israeli protection. And still, it did not bring peace.

Israel opted to get out of Gaza for purely pragmatic and political reasons. Maintaining a military presence to protect a small number of Israeli’s living in Gaza was economically and politically unsustainable. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, those Israeli’s living in Gaza were settlers who had moved in after Gaza was captured in the 6-Day War. 1,700 families were removed. It is interesting what it has to say about it.

History of Jewish Settlements in Gaza

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The largest group of settlements was the Katif bloc, located along the southern Gaza coastline. These settlements blocked access to the coast from the major Palestinian cities of Khan Yunis and Rafah and cement Israeli control on the Egypt-Gaza border. Another group of settlements (comprising Elei Sinai, Dugit, and Nisanit) were located along Gaza's northern border with Israel, expanding the Israeli presence from the city of Ashkelon (inside Israel) to the edges of Gaza City (the Erez Industrial zone is part of this bloc). Netzarim, Kfar Darom, and Morag were strategically located in the heart of the Gaza Strip (along a north-south axis), creating a framework for Israeli control of the area and its main transportation route, and facilitating Israel's ability to divide the Gaza Strip into separate areas and isolate each area's inhabitants. In addition, the settlements controlled prime agricultural land, some of the area's main aquifers, and approximately one-third of the total Gaza coastline.


I’m not by any means an expert in international law, but if this territory was taken in war and considered occupied territory under international law, why was the Israeli government creating settlements and transferring population not just into it, but into prime real estate and in such a way as to divide and restrict the local population? If those settlers weren’t supposed to be there under international law, how is that ethnic cleansing? Isn’t this the fault of the Israeli government for allowing these settlements to be built on territory that was not part of its state?

 

[Coyote]

Such nonsense. There can be no meaningful peace negotiations, and therefore no Palestinian state until the Palestinians find someone to lead them that can credibly offer peace to Israel, and there is no rational scenario in which that happens in the foreseeable future when that will happen - certainly the PA would not qualify.

I agree that the Palestinians need a leader who can speak for them and be accountable. Maybe Marwan Barghouti It would not be the first time a former terrorist became a political leader.

The PA is a funnel for foreign aid to the Palestinians and nothing more. It wouldn't even exist if Israel wasn't hunting down Hamas operatives in Judea and Samaria who would overwhelm the PA otherwise.

Well, Netanyahu has certainly made sure the PA was weak and ineffective in the West Bank and Hamas strong in Gaza..

There is a war in Gaza right now because the Palestinians massacred Israelis on Oct. 7 in an attempt to change the demographics by destroying Israel, and in all the years since 1967, Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria total only 3.6% of the land in Judea and Samaria, so no one with eyes that can see and a brain that can think can honestly claim Israel is trying to change the demographics.

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20West%20Bank,area%20of%20the%20West%20Bank.

Hamas massacred civilians.

 

[Coyote]

The change has already occurred; now Israel will maintain security control over both Gaza and Judea and Samaria since there is no rational alternative.

And what of the people in Gaza and the West Bank?

 

[Coyote]

Let’s talk about it after the Muslim savages return the hostages. Reports are that they are starving to death.

I agree Hamas must return the hostages and there can be nothing else negotiated until then. Unfortunately, many are held by other militant groups and little is known about their condition or where they are. The scarcity of food is throughout Gaza you know.

 

[Coyote]

There is a war in Gaza right now because the Palestinians massacred Israelis on Oct. 7 in an attempt to change the demographics by destroying Israel, and in all the years since 1967, Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria total only 3.6% of the land in Judea and Samaria, so no one with eyes that can see and a brain that can think can honestly claim Israel is trying to change the demographics.

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/89215#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20the%20West%20Bank,area%20of%20the%20West%20Bank.

It is no secret that Israel is trying to alter the demographics in the parts of the West Bank under its control as well as East Jerusalem.

 

[Coyote]

I respect you for wanting to be fair to the Palestinians. However, you are living in a fantasy world. And have you ever seen Israeli's acting like this even now?

Israeli settler attacks on West Bank Palestinians have escalated since Oct. 7, UN says

With the world’s attention focused on the fighting in Gaza, Israeli settler violence against Palestinians since Oct. 7 has surged to the highest levels ever recorded by the United Nations.

www.pbs.org

 

[toomuchtime_]

Wasn’t Gaza occupied territory? It wasn’t yours to give up.




Again, occupied territory.

Israel opted to get out of Gaza for purely pragmatic and political reasons. Maintaining a military presence to protect a small number of Israeli’s living in Gaza was economically and politically unsustainable. According to the Jewish Virtual Library, those Israeli’s living in Gaza were settlers who had moved in after Gaza was captured in the 6-Day War. 1,700 families were removed. It is interesting what it has to say about it.

History of Jewish Settlements in Gaza

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

The largest group of settlements was the Katif bloc, located along the southern Gaza coastline. These settlements blocked access to the coast from the major Palestinian cities of Khan Yunis and Rafah and cement Israeli control on the Egypt-Gaza border. Another group of settlements (comprising Elei Sinai, Dugit, and Nisanit) were located along Gaza's northern border with Israel, expanding the Israeli presence from the city of Ashkelon (inside Israel) to the edges of Gaza City (the Erez Industrial zone is part of this bloc). Netzarim, Kfar Darom, and Morag were strategically located in the heart of the Gaza Strip (along a north-south axis), creating a framework for Israeli control of the area and its main transportation route, and facilitating Israel's ability to divide the Gaza Strip into separate areas and isolate each area's inhabitants. In addition, the settlements controlled prime agricultural land, some of the area's main aquifers, and approximately one-third of the total Gaza coastline.


I’m not by any means an expert in international law, but if this territory was taken in war and considered occupied territory under international law, why was the Israeli government creating settlements and transferring population not just into it, but into prime real estate and in such a way as to divide and restrict the local population? If those settlers weren’t supposed to be there under international law, how is that ethnic cleansing? Isn’t this the fault of the Israeli government for allowing these settlements to be built on territory that was not part of its state?

Much ado about nothing. Gaza, Judea and Samaria were just unincorporated remnants of the former UN Mandate for Palestine which were subsequently captured by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (Judea, Samaria) during the 1948 war and held in belligerent occupation until 1967, when they were captured or liberated by Israel, and the fact is, Israel had as much right to this land as any other country.

Unlike the Arab nations that were eager to gobble up these pieces of land for themselves, immediately after capturing them Israel offered to return them to Egypt's and Jordan's occupation in return for peace, but the Arab nations refused and the so called Palestinians did not object to this refusal, so by virtue of the facts that no nation had a legal claim to these territories prior to the war in 1948, and Israel's possession of them following the 1967 war, and the refusals of the Arab nations or the Palestinians to accept them back in return for peace, Israel had a greater claim to these territories than any Arab nation or the so called Palestinians. They have been regarded by Israel as occupied territories by the Israeli government, rather than being incorporated in the State of Israel only because a majority of Israelis had hoped to use them in a trade for peace with the Arabs, but now that that is clearly impossible, what happens in Gaza, Judea or Samaria is wholly an Israeli matter to decide, and is subject to no other political entity's jurisdiction.

The number one issue in Gaza today is the safety and security of the Israeli people, and until the Palestinians abandon their ambition to destroy Israel it will remain so.

 

[toomuchtime_]

It is no secret that Israel is trying to alter the demographics in the parts of the West Bank under its control as well as East Jerusalem.

It is no secret that the Palestinians claim this is so, but there are no facts to support this claim.

 

[Coyote]

1) Why should “my” side give up land when “your” side continues to call for the elimination of Israel and the extermination of all her 9 million Jews?

“my” side calls for the recognition of the state of Israel and the creation of a autonomous Palestinian state or barring that a semi autonomous state with the same rights and protections that Israeli citizens enjoy.