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*SIGH!* Yes, Coyote - that exists AND it is reported on. Frequently and at great length.
Even in the Torah, which may be regarded as a 'promo' for Judaism written by our ancestors, the founders and leaders of the Jewish people are not always 'heroic' and without flaws..... Judaism does not teach as a doctrine that perfection is necessary for a human to be accepted by YHVH, to approach YHVH, or to have a place in the World to Come.
That doesn't mean that Judaism is accepting of sin against another human, no. It just means we acknowledge we are not perfect to begin with: that doesn't absolve us of seeking to improve ourselves or the general situation.
So, the relevance of all that? I think as a culture, we are more introspective than others may tend to be: after all, we've got no 'devil made me do it' to evade our own responsibilities, and no 'we're 'fallen' - we are broken' excuse for remaining '..... And not insisting perfection is 'required', we have been less reluctant to paint ourselves showing the warts, etc.
As a society, we are still a small group - and we also understand that what any one of us does, is liable to be taken as "typical" of all of us by those who are ignorant. AND we haven't forgotten the many times when*that* was the 'reason' for attacking us and killing off entire communities. (Oh, sure - they were tiny, a village here and there - but you hear 'they wiped out the town' and you remember....)
Of course, none of that's unique (just ask an Armenian, or any SE Asian 'of Chinese extraction'....), not even the clearing out the town Rosewood massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But it kept going on for millennia, and sometimes on a huge scale - and there's an entire industry (the aforementioned Rense, Alex Jones, etc) devoted to churning out 'shocking conspiracies' which so often accuse some of us of 'masterminding' whatever 'shock du jour' the demagogue wants to flog the mob into a rage over (Hep! Hep!)......
We can add to all of that the flaming bigotry of some otherwise notable 'public figures' (Charles Lindberg and many others), and a social climate which even today ignores the spewage as the bigotry it is. Or why do you suppose the 'sources' cited as authoritative by "critics of Israel" ('s existence!) so very often turn out to have connections to Holocaust denial?
So I don't deny the prejudice, nor see it as 'tolerable' or 'inevitable' - but I have to wonder if a Jewish press in a Jewish-majority nation is reporting it in direct proportion to its severity and frequency, and how accurate that is compared to say, American news reporting on 'race' issues. I don't presume to have any conclusions, just questions.
I also add - with trepidation! - that there is indeed a small but most vocal element within the 'Palestinian' population, even Palestinian citizens of Israel, even wealthy and educated ones - who apparently believe that there should be no 'Israel' and no Jews. (We've got a few like that in the US: some even post on USMB) As there are a small but vocal element within the Jewish Israeli population who are unabashedly bigoted.
The difference is - contrary to past statements attributed to past (some long past and long dead!) public figure - there is no such 'exterminate-exterminate-exterminate' going on within the Israeli general public. There are no quasi-government sponsored children's TV shows inculcating hatred of an entire people - as opposed to what 'Rechov Sumsum' (= Sesame Street) from Israeli TV presents.
'Resistance' is not all fighting-and-dying: true 'resistance' is continuing to live one's life as it should be, regardless of 'punishment/reward' imposed from outside. On an individual level this is as true as it is for a community.
Every last one of us is faced with the 'daily grind' of dumbing-down and descending to the lowest common denominator. Do you 'mime' putting a tip in the jar for the barrista? Do you pretend you don't see the signal of the person hoping to make a left turn? When nobody can see it, do you cut that corner on your run?
And do you laugh at the 'ethnic jokes' which are cruel? Do you stand up for 'them' whenever someone slanders them - or only when it's not the popular folks, when it's not your friends?
There are some who don't want to see Muslims and Jews get along. I expect this.
Conflict can offer great "benefits" to individual agendas on both sides...as long as there is conflict, attention is redirected from other pressing problems.
There are some who don't want to see Muslims and Jews get along. I expect this.
Conflict can offer great "benefits" to individual agendas on both sides...as long as there is conflict, attention is redirected from other pressing problems.
The sides seldom include the people of the sides. How many Israeli born in Israel are here? How many Palestinians born in the territories are here? The common people want peace pretty much.
Yet the diatribe and side embellishments are greatly enhanced here in order to personalize and foment anger and often peace is not on that agenda.
I mean that most of the details of this issue are known and dealt with by those who are actually involved. It's a different situation when the cameras and media are not focused on the leaders.
That I do know.
Conflict can offer great "benefits" to individual agendas on both sides...as long as there is conflict, attention is redirected from other pressing problems.
The sides seldom include the people of the sides. How many Israeli born in Israel are here? How many Palestinians born in the territories are here? The common people want peace pretty much.
Yet the diatribe and side embellishments are greatly enhanced here in order to personalize and foment anger and often peace is not on that agenda.
I mean that most of the details of this issue are known and dealt with by those who are actually involved. It's a different situation when the cameras and media are not focused on the leaders.
That I do know.
Oh, I totally agree - because when the media is focused, it becomes rhetoric for public consumption and it's impossible to truly negotiate.
What I was thinking about conflict incurring "benefits" though is more along the lines that for some, perpetuating the conflict deflects from internal issues. For example a number of Arab countries that suffer unrest due to autocratic political policies or bad economies can utilize the I/P situation to turn people's attention away from their own troubles on to a "hate Israel" track. Likewise, maintaining conflict for Israel can be seen as a unifyng force - unifying a diverse country through the thread of extermination. Once you defeat those enemies outside, you have to start dealing with the fractures inside (and that applies to both Israel and Arab countries).
LIE much?Roudy -
Please try and post honestly.
Of the six quotes in the OP - five of them do not seem to have been questioned at all. There are more quotes in the thread - and Not one of them has been Questioned by Anyone.
I realise that many of these quotes undermine your positions - which is exactly why you should give those positions some real thought.
Why is it that you post things on this forum that even the most hardline Israeli leaders would argue with?
Why have you dug out those old quotes which are posted on hate sites? What was your purpose since the readers of these forums have seen these quotes for years dug up by anti-Semites? Who even knows what quotes might be true or not. No doubt many of these quotes have been taken out of context or even altered, but why not be honest with us and tell us why you felt you had to bring up these quotes again. Instead of bringing up these old quotes, how come you are not on the other forums talking about what is happening in the other Middle East countries as well as Southeast Asia and Africa? Is it because the Jews are not involved in the atrocities happening there? By the way, it is interesting, Saigon, how you fall all over yourself trying to show Israel and her leaders in a bad light. What about all the other leaders in the countries where people are being killed for their religious beliefs? I am sure the viewers are intelligent enough to realize that these quotes brought up by Saigon will be shown over and over throughout the years just as they have been previously.Hosslfy -
these quotes which have allegedly come from Israeli leaders have been dug up year after year by anti-Semites and Arab propagandists.
Are you suggesting that David Ben Gurion's autobiography is fake?
It is interesting to see allegedly pro-Israel posters falling over themselves to deny what the man actually said....
Originally posted by Ropey
I pray for Western style peace accords.
José;7747383 said:Originally posted by Ropey
I pray for Western style peace accords.
For more than 100 years, South Africa tried to impose "peace" on the Bantu peoples of the region to no avail.
Peace without justice didn't work in South Africa and will never work in Palestine either.
But if after 65 years of conflict I still have to state the obvious to you, Ropey, I just throw my hands in the air and leave you with the saying:
"None are so blind as those who refuse to see."
José;7747383 said:Originally posted by Ropey
I pray for Western style peace accords.
For more than 100 years, South Africa tried to impose "peace" on the Bantu peoples of the region to no avail.
Peace without justice didn't work in South Africa and will never work in Palestine either.
But if after 65 years of conflict I still have to state the obvious to you, Ropey, I just throw my hands in the air and leave you with the saying:
"None are so blind as those who refuse to see."
José;7747383 said:Originally posted by Ropey
I pray for Western style peace accords.
For more than 100 years, South Africa tried to impose "peace" on the Bantu peoples of the region to no avail.
Peace without justice didn't work in South Africa and will never work in Palestine either.
But if after 65 years of conflict I still have to state the obvious to you, Ropey, I just throw my hands in the air and leave you with the saying:
"None are so blind as those who refuse to see."
Then take the blockers off. It's a prayer and it's not to you.
Throwing your hands up in the air?
José;7747383 said:Originally posted by Ropey
I pray for Western style peace accords.
For more than 100 years, South Africa tried to impose "peace" on the Bantu peoples of the region to no avail.
Peace without justice didn't work in South Africa and will never work in Palestine either.
But if after 65 years of conflict I still have to state the obvious to you, Ropey, I just throw my hands in the air and leave you with the saying:
"None are so blind as those who refuse to see."
I don't think you even know how much that quote actually applies to you.
José;7747558 said:José;7747383 said:For more than 100 years, South Africa tried to impose "peace" on the Bantu peoples of the region to no avail.
Peace without justice didn't work in South Africa and will never work in Palestine either.
But if after 65 years of conflict I still have to state the obvious to you, Ropey, I just throw my hands in the air and leave you with the saying:
"None are so blind as those who refuse to see."
I don't think you even know how much that quote actually applies to you.
Yup.and here we go again lol !
never fails.
I'm also sure that Tinnie, who dreams every night of Israel's destruction but who has never set foot in his beloved country, is different from those Palestinians who would just like to make a living, raise their families in peace, and come to some sort of settlement with Israel.
that statement is only used to attack those who support Israel. I wonder why?
"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.I didn't understand the question
Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?
No.
That's historically incorrect.
Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.
"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.Do you agree 96 out of every 100 inhabitants of the land between the River and the sea were non-Jews when the political movement of Zionism began in Europe in the late 19th century?
No.
That's historically incorrect.
Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.
"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.
"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.
"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.
"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.
"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.
"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."
MidEast Web - Population of Palestine
"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.No.
That's historically incorrect.
Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.
"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.
"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.
"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.
"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.
"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.
"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."
MidEast Web - Population of Palestine
America was not an empty land when...
etc. etc. etc.
You have no point other than to complain about how many countries are created. Even if you single Israel out.
"Palestine was not an empty land when Zionist immigration began.
"The lowest estimates claim there were about 410,000 Arab Muslims and Christians in Palestine in 1893.
"A Zionist estimate claimed there were over 600,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1890s.
"At this time, the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine was still negligible by all accounts. It is unlikely that Palestinian immigration prior to this period was due to Zionist development.
"Though uncertainty exists concerning the precise numbers of Arabs living in the areas that later became Israel, it is very unlikely that the claims of Joan Peters that there were less than 100,000 Arabs living there are valid.
"Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries.
"By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times."
MidEast Web - Population of Palestine
America was not an empty land when...
etc. etc. etc.
You have no point other than to complain about how many countries are created. Even if you single Israel out.
How many times do we hear the argument that Israel was (virtually) and empty land prior to immigration? It's an argument specifically made by certain factions.
No.
That's historically incorrect.
Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.
No.
That's historically incorrect.
Most Arab squatters came to Israel at the beginning of the 20st century and suddenly invented a false nation that didn't exist before.
Research and data from various sources including Zionist sources, shows that hundreds of thousands of Arabs lived in Palestine prior to the 20th century.
These neverending stories about Palestine being void of people until the middle of the 20th century, that no Arabs were expelled from Israel during the 1948 War, is tantamount to Historical Revionism and Genocide Denial.
