They said it: Israeli leaders on Palestine

[toastman]

and here we go again lol !

 

[Saigon]

Toastman -

Damn right!

It is essential that everyone understand that the real Pro-Israelis are the people who pit thei ass on the line to live in the country, to pay taxes there, and to work with Israeli people.

Nut-case extremists who have never been east of Kansas are not necessarily what Israel needs right now.

Put it this way - no Israeli is ever gong to claim that Palestinians were only invented in the 1960s, because they know its a lie.

That kind of garbage is the sole domain of the wackjob extremists who have never set foot on Israeli soil. The ones who think lying is what Israel really needs.

Real Pro-Israelis know that lies do not help Israel.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

It's called objectivity.

You should try it.

I have nothing against anyone who wants to crticize Israel. But at least don't pretend you are pro - Israeli.

Saigon prenteded she is pro-Israel? I think I ought to get my glasses changed!

Saigon is female?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Toastman -

Damn right!

It is essential that everyone understand that the real Pro-Israelis are the people who pit thei ass on the line to live in the country, to pay taxes there, and to work with Israeli people.

Nut-case extremists who have never been east of Kansas are not necessarily what Israel needs right now.

Put it this way - no Israeli is ever gong to claim that Palestinians were only invented in the 1960s, because they know its a lie.

That kind of garbage is the sole domain of the wackjob extremists who have never set foot on Israeli soil. The ones who think lying is what Israel really needs.

Real Pro-Israelis know that lies do not help Israel.

I have to admit that the Jews in Brooklyn where I live (and who have never served in the IDF), are more "rightist" than my Israeli cousins.

 

[toastman]

I have nothing against anyone who wants to crticize Israel. But at least don't pretend you are pro - Israeli.

Saigon prenteded she is pro-Israel? I think I ought to get my glasses changed!

Saigon is female?

lol I was wondering too

 

[ForeverYoung436]

I'm also sure that Tinnie, who dreams every night of Israel's destruction but who has never set foot in his beloved country, is different from those Palestinians who would just like to make a living, raise their families in peace, and come to some sort of settlement with Israel.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

I'm also sure that Tinnie, who dreams every night of Israel's destruction but who has never set foot in his beloved country, is different from those Palestinians who would just like to make a living, raise their families in peace, and come to some sort of settlement with Israel.

And of course the 'Palestinians' and Jews co-exist absolutely fine within Israel, working, shopping, socializing together etc. People have the wrong idea of what things are like there.

 

[toastman]

I'm also sure that Tinnie, who dreams every night of Israel's destruction but who has never set foot in his beloved country, is different from those Palestinians who would just like to make a living, raise their families in peace, and come to some sort of settlement with Israel.

And of course the 'Palestinians' and Jews co-exist absolutely fine within Israel, working, shopping, socializing together etc. People have the wrong idea of what things are like there.

Palestinians have it way better in Israel than anywhere in the ME. Specially in Jordan, where they live like dogs in refugee camps and are refused citizenship .

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMVh9Iwf6Xk]The Humiliation of Palestinian Refugees (Full Movie) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Hossfly]

et al,

This is one of those threads that I find hard to follow.

Caroline, we all have seen those quotes over and over and over again, and they probably are one of the favorites things on the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites. In fact, years ago, a poster on a trip to Israel visited the newspaper that supposedly reported on a Dayan quote. The people at the newspaper looked in the archives and told him that they never reported that in their newspaper So how do we know that all these quotes are "the real thing?" You can be sure, Caroline, these quotes will be dug up time and time again and posted on these forums.

Funny how Saigon, the poster who always claims to be a pro - Israeli, is the one who started this thread....

(COMMENT)

What exactly is being alleged here?

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, for years and years, these quotes which have allegedly come from Israeli leaders have been dug up year after year by anti-Semites and Arab propagandists. You can find these quotes on places like Rense.com. That is why one of the posters, Dr. Miller, after seeing these quotes continuously on another forum went to the offices of Haaretz while he was visiting Israel to see if they actually reported on something Dayan supposedly said (which was one of the quotes). After searching, they found that they never reported that so who knows how many of the other quotes are true. However, when you see these quotes constantly brought up, you know that the haters of Israel have nothing much to say if they have to keep posting the same old stuff. So much is happening in many Middle East countries these days, but they feel it is more important to bypass the other forums and bring up the alleged quotes again.

 

[Coyote]

I'm also sure that Tinnie, who dreams every night of Israel's destruction but who has never set foot in his beloved country, is different from those Palestinians who would just like to make a living, raise their families in peace, and come to some sort of settlement with Israel.

And of course the 'Palestinians' and Jews co-exist absolutely fine within Israel, working, shopping, socializing together etc. People have the wrong idea of what things are like there.

Not necessarily. There is considerable bigotry against Palestinians and institutionalized inequities. Pretending they don't exist doesn't make them go away. This was discussed at length in http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/301952-jewish-teenagers-sentenced.html.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

I'm also sure that Tinnie, who dreams every night of Israel's destruction but who has never set foot in his beloved country, is different from those Palestinians who would just like to make a living, raise their families in peace, and come to some sort of settlement with Israel.

And of course the 'Palestinians' and Jews co-exist absolutely fine within Israel, working, shopping, socializing together etc. People have the wrong idea of what things are like there.

Not necessarily. There is considerable bigotry against Palestinians and institutionalized inequities. Pretending they don't exist doesn't make them go away. This was discussed at length in http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/301952-jewish-teenagers-sentenced.html.

Not really what I meant. There is a lot of coexistence and people think Jews and Arabs don't mix, do not work together etc. But thanks for showing me that thread anyway.

 

[Saigon]

Hosslfy -

these quotes which have allegedly come from Israeli leaders have been dug up year after year by anti-Semites and Arab propagandists.

Are you suggesting that David Ben Gurion's autobiography is fake?

It is interesting to see allegedly pro-Israel posters falling over themselves to deny what the man actually said....

 

[Saigon]

Toastman -

Damn right!

It is essential that everyone understand that the real Pro-Israelis are the people who pit thei ass on the line to live in the country, to pay taxes there, and to work with Israeli people.

Nut-case extremists who have never been east of Kansas are not necessarily what Israel needs right now.

Put it this way - no Israeli is ever gong to claim that Palestinians were only invented in the 1960s, because they know its a lie.

That kind of garbage is the sole domain of the wackjob extremists who have never set foot on Israeli soil. The ones who think lying is what Israel really needs.

Real Pro-Israelis know that lies do not help Israel.

I have to admit that the Jews in Brooklyn where I live (and who have never served in the IDF), are more "rightist" than my Israeli cousins.

Yes, absolutely!!

In a way I think that is quite natural - people who live in the US don't have to take off their rose-coloured glasses in the way Israelis have to every morning when the open the J.Post and read about Likud's corruption scandals, deaths on the roads, rapes and murders etc etc.

But the other thing is that many Israelis have gotten to know Palestinians and have at least some understanding of their side of the conflict. There might even be some grudging respect there.

Either way, I know most of my Israeli friends absolutely cringe when they hear what some American Jews say about Israel!

btw. I'm a guy!!

 

[MHunterB]

*SIGH!* Yes, Coyote - that exists AND it is reported on. Frequently and at great length.


Even in the Torah, which may be regarded as a 'promo' for Judaism written by our ancestors, the founders and leaders of the Jewish people are not always 'heroic' and without flaws..... Judaism does not teach as a doctrine that perfection is necessary for a human to be accepted by YHVH, to approach YHVH, or to have a place in the World to Come.

That doesn't mean that Judaism is accepting of sin against another human, no. It just means we acknowledge we are not perfect to begin with: that doesn't absolve us of seeking to improve ourselves or the general situation.

So, the relevance of all that? I think as a culture, we are more introspective than others may tend to be: after all, we've got no 'devil made me do it' to evade our own responsibilities, and no 'we're 'fallen' - we are broken' excuse for remaining '..... And not insisting perfection is 'required', we have been less reluctant to paint ourselves showing the warts, etc.
As a society, we are still a small group - and we also understand that what any one of us does, is liable to be taken as "typical" of all of us by those who are ignorant. AND we haven't forgotten the many times when*that* was the 'reason' for attacking us and killing off entire communities. (Oh, sure - they were tiny, a village here and there - but you hear 'they wiped out the town' and you remember....)

Of course, none of that's unique (just ask an Armenian, or any SE Asian 'of Chinese extraction'....), not even the clearing out the town Rosewood massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But it kept going on for millennia, and sometimes on a huge scale - and there's an entire industry (the aforementioned Rense, Alex Jones, etc) devoted to churning out 'shocking conspiracies' which so often accuse some of us of 'masterminding' whatever 'shock du jour' the demagogue wants to flog the mob into a rage over (Hep! Hep!)......

We can add to all of that the flaming bigotry of some otherwise notable 'public figures' (Charles Lindberg and many others), and a social climate which even today ignores the spewage as the bigotry it is. Or why do you suppose the 'sources' cited as authoritative by "critics of Israel" ('s existence!) so very often turn out to have connections to Holocaust denial?

So I don't deny the prejudice, nor see it as 'tolerable' or 'inevitable' - but I have to wonder if a Jewish press in a Jewish-majority nation is reporting it in direct proportion to its severity and frequency, and how accurate that is compared to say, American news reporting on 'race' issues. I don't presume to have any conclusions, just questions.

I also add - with trepidation! - that there is indeed a small but most vocal element within the 'Palestinian' population, even Palestinian citizens of Israel, even wealthy and educated ones - who apparently believe that there should be no 'Israel' and no Jews. (We've got a few like that in the US: some even post on USMB) As there are a small but vocal element within the Jewish Israeli population who are unabashedly bigoted.

The difference is - contrary to past statements attributed to past (some long past and long dead!) public figure - there is no such 'exterminate-exterminate-exterminate' going on within the Israeli general public. There are no quasi-government sponsored children's TV shows inculcating hatred of an entire people - as opposed to what 'Rechov Sumsum' (= Sesame Street) from Israeli TV presents.

'Resistance' is not all fighting-and-dying: true 'resistance' is continuing to live one's life as it should be, regardless of 'punishment/reward' imposed from outside. On an individual level this is as true as it is for a community.

Every last one of us is faced with the 'daily grind' of dumbing-down and descending to the lowest common denominator. Do you 'mime' putting a tip in the jar for the barrista? Do you pretend you don't see the signal of the person hoping to make a left turn? When nobody can see it, do you cut that corner on your run?

And do you laugh at the 'ethnic jokes' which are cruel? Do you stand up for 'them' whenever someone slanders them - or only when it's not the popular folks, when it's not your friends?

 

[Hossfly]

Hosslfy -

these quotes which have allegedly come from Israeli leaders have been dug up year after year by anti-Semites and Arab propagandists.

Are you suggesting that David Ben Gurion's autobiography is fake?

It is interesting to see allegedly pro-Israel posters falling over themselves to deny what the man actually said....

I'm suggesting that grammar can be manipulated. You are a self-proclaimed wordsmith so you should know the ropes.

 

[Saigon]

Hossfly -

The Moshe Dayan quote may well have been either mistranslated or manipulated, and I apologise for using it here.

However, none of the other 8 - 10 quotes used in this thread have been accused of anything other than contradicting posters.

 

[Ropey]

And of course the 'Palestinians' and Jews co-exist absolutely fine within Israel, working, shopping, socializing together etc. People have the wrong idea of what things are like there.

Not necessarily. There is considerable bigotry against Palestinians and institutionalized inequities. Pretending they don't exist doesn't make them go away. This was discussed at length in http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/301952-jewish-teenagers-sentenced.html.

Not really what I meant. There is a lot of coexistence and people think Jews and Arabs don't mix, do not work together etc. But thanks for showing me that thread anyway.

Indeed.

 

[Coyote]

*SIGH!* Yes, Coyote - that exists AND it is reported on. Frequently and at great length.

Not here. Look at the thread titles. When it is brought up, look at the typical responses.

Even in the Torah, which may be regarded as a 'promo' for Judaism written by our ancestors, the founders and leaders of the Jewish people are not always 'heroic' and without flaws..... Judaism does not teach as a doctrine that perfection is necessary for a human to be accepted by YHVH, to approach YHVH, or to have a place in the World to Come.

That doesn't mean that Judaism is accepting of sin against another human, no. It just means we acknowledge we are not perfect to begin with: that doesn't absolve us of seeking to improve ourselves or the general situation.

So, the relevance of all that? I think as a culture, we are more introspective than others may tend to be: after all, we've got no 'devil made me do it' to evade our own responsibilities, and no 'we're 'fallen' - we are broken' excuse for remaining '..... And not insisting perfection is 'required', we have been less reluctant to paint ourselves showing the warts, etc.

As a society, we are still a small group - and we also understand that what any one of us does, is liable to be taken as "typical" of all of us by those who are ignorant. AND we haven't forgotten the many times when*that* was the 'reason' for attacking us and killing off entire communities. (Oh, sure - they were tiny, a village here and there - but you hear 'they wiped out the town' and you remember....)
Of course, none of that's unique (just ask an Armenian, or any SE Asian 'of Chinese extraction'....), not even the clearing out the town Rosewood massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But it kept going on for millennia, and sometimes on a huge scale - and there's an entire industry (the aforementioned Rense, Alex Jones, etc) devoted to churning out 'shocking conspiracies' which so often accuse some of us of 'masterminding' whatever 'shock du jour' the demagogue wants to flog the mob into a rage over (Hep! Hep!)......

We can add to all of that the flaming bigotry of some otherwise notable 'public figures' (Charles Lindberg and many others), and a social climate which even today ignores the spewage as the bigotry it is. Or why do you suppose the 'sources' cited as authoritative by "critics of Israel" ('s existence!) so very often turn out to have connections to Holocaust denial?

So I don't deny the prejudice, nor see it as 'tolerable' or 'inevitable' - but I have to wonder if a Jewish press in a Jewish-majority nation is reporting it in direct proportion to its severity and frequency, and how accurate that is compared to say, American news reporting on 'race' issues. I don't presume to have any conclusions, just questions.

I also add - with trepidation! - that there is indeed a small but most vocal element within the 'Palestinian' population, even Palestinian citizens of Israel, even wealthy and educated ones - who apparently believe that there should be no 'Israel' and no Jews. (We've got a few like that in the US: some even post on USMB) As there are a small but vocal element within the Jewish Israeli population who are unabashedly bigoted.

Marge, thank you for a very thoughtful and at length post – it offers glimpses of light in what often seems “knee jerk defense” on both sides – defenses that deny the good, the bad, the complexities – in an effort not provide ammo to the opposing sides. I’m not meaning this in a derogatory way - but few are willing to discuss or even admit that they have their small but vocal elements. It’s easier to paint the whole group as bigoted and extremist.

The difference is - contrary to past statements attributed to past (some long past and long dead!) public figure - there is no such 'exterminate-exterminate-exterminate' going on within the Israeli general public. There are no quasi-government sponsored children's TV shows inculcating hatred of an entire people - as opposed to what 'Rechov Sumsum' (= Sesame Street) from Israeli TV presents.

I agree, that that is where the Palestinians themselves need to step up and take responsibility for their message (and they have not yet). However – there is enough of a subculture that condones or justifies bigotry and violence towards Arabs and Palestinians that the government itself has sent out a wake up call to the educational system and the community at large. This says to me that they consider this the beginning of a serious cultural problem that needs to be addressed.

'Resistance' is not all fighting-and-dying: true 'resistance' is continuing to live one's life as it should be, regardless of 'punishment/reward' imposed from outside. On an individual level this is as true as it is for a community.

I don’t know Marge…I agree but I also see that there are times when violence is called for. Ghandi is one of my heros, yet I can’t think of any independence or resistance movement that did not include some degree of violence. Stoicism has it’s place – but stoicism has also lead to horrible consequences – in some cases extermination.

Every last one of us is faced with the 'daily grind' of dumbing-down and descending to the lowest common denominator. Do you 'mime' putting a tip in the jar for the barrista? Do you pretend you don't see the signal of the person hoping to make a left turn? When nobody can see it, do you cut that corner on your run?
And do you laugh at the 'ethnic jokes' which are cruel? Do you stand up for 'them' whenever someone slanders them - or only when it's not the popular folks, when it's not your friends?

Do any of us?

Well said – and points for thought. We are all only human in the end.

 

[Ropey]

There are some who don't want to see Muslims and Jews get along. I expect this.

 

[Coyote]

There are some who don't want to see Muslims and Jews get along. I expect this.

Conflict can offer great "benefits" to individual agendas on both sides...as long as there is conflict, attention is redirected from other pressing problems.