They shoot children, don't they?

[Comrade]

Then you are a fascist.

Gadzooks! My cover is blown!

This does not appear to be the case in Vietnam.

Vietnamese vote?

And it certainly had no signs of going that way in Chile.

Chile was a communist state?

Ummm.. 40% was the minimum corporate tax rate. 40% was also about the average personal tax rate, but the rate did go as high as 90% at the top bracket.

Yes, 40% was also about the average personal tax rate. Not communism, is it.

The same can be said of tyrant leaders in control of "democracies". Hitler and Marcos are two examples.

And not true of democracies.

What? Under communism everyone is a member of the proletariate. The system is supposed to be an effective republic, with the collectives voting on issues.

supposed to be

You refer to one example, Kim of NK. You have a double standard. When communism degenerates into authoritarian rule, you still want to call it communism.

Communism is authoritarian rule.

But when democracy degenerates into authoritarian rule, you wish to reclassify it as dictatorship.

I must be crazy!

There are many examples of Democracies, which have reverted to dictatorships. Germany, Italy, the Phillapines, El Salvador, etc...

Because Democracy is BAD!

Today, something like 40% of the UN membership are considered to be failed democracies (from S. America, Africa, and indochina).

Cause Democracy sucks!

You seem to think it is a given that democracy will work in Iraq. Everything in history is against it. Of the 121 nations classified as democracies in the world today - NOT ONE IS ARAB!

Aren't you the closet racist!

Already something around 12,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in this war as the immeadiate result of allied military action. Fewer would have been killed by a neutron bomb attack. Furthermore, the infrastructure of the nation would have been virtually untouched. Water and power would have continued to flow.

Probably shouldn't drink the water, though, just to be safe.

I do not say we would have know exactly where Saddam was. I say we would have had a very good idea where he would have been - we we would have had a very high chance of getting him by hitting the Baath Party congress while it was in session and Saddams palaces in a simultanous strike. And even if we had somehow failed to get him, without the Baath's or the Republican Gaurd, his power would have been ended.

And without the Iraqi Congress how could Saddam ever survive?

Finally, why the kit gloves? These people allowed a terrorist and harborer of terrorists to rule thier country for decades. Don't you think it is about time that we put the Arab world on notice that to do so is to invite ruin? It is time to start making the Arabs realize that they cannot look the other way while Al-Queda and other terrorists operate in their midst, and that if they do the consequences are grave.

Now listen, I'm going to tell you what me grandaddy told me. There were two Bulls on a hilltop looking down on a bunch of cows. The younger bull said, "Dad, we should run down there and fuck ourselves on of them thar cows". But Daddy bull, see, he was a smart feller. Dadd said to his son, he said, "Son, I've got a better idear. Let's say we walk down this hill and fuck 'em all."

Face it, the Iraqi's are never going to be grateful for their liberation. The truth is the Arabs hated us before, they hate us now, and they will hate us tommarow. The idea that we are going to make friends of the Arabs in our lifetimes is pure fantasy. We need to make them respect and fear us. They think differently than we do, they do not value individual life the way we do. Simply invading and occupying their countries is not going to do the trick - as soon as we are gone they will revert right back to their old ways. They will say what you want to hear to your face, make promises, whatever to appease you, never meaning even one word of it. Only by demonstrating absolute power are we ever going to get them to realize they must change or die. And that is not going to be accomplished using conventional tactics.

Your talking crazy, man. Wade, I think you have the SPACE MADNESS!!!

 

[Annie]

Wade, I am so confused by you. You seem to argue that the US is a 'democracy' out of control. That it will fail, inevitably. Yet that same system, you want to basically lay waste to a substantial area of another country, just because we CAN:

These people allowed a terrorist and harborer of terrorists to rule thier country for decades. Don't you think it is about time that we put the Arab world on notice that to do so is to invite ruin? It is time to start making the Arabs realize that they cannot look the other way while Al-Queda and other terrorists operate in their midst, and that if they do the consequences are grave.

Then you post nonsense, that I've sourced many times to be false http://www.deanesmay.com/posts/1095603440.shtml :

Face it, the Iraqi's are never going to be grateful for their liberation. The truth is the Arabs hated us before, they hate us now, and they will hate us tommarow. The idea that we are going to make friends of the Arabs in our lifetimes is pure fantasy. We need to make them respect and fear us. They think differently than we do, they do not value individual life the way we do. Simply invading and occupying their countries is not going to do the trick - as soon as we are gone they will revert right back to their old ways. They will say what you want to hear to your face, make promises, whatever to appease you, never meaning even one word of it. Only by demonstrating absolute power are we ever going to get them to realize they must change or die. And that is not going to be accomplished using conventional tactics.

You may be well schooled, but you are far from educated.

 

[wade]

Wade, I am so confused by you. You seem to argue that the US is a 'democracy' out of control. That it will fail, inevitably.

You are confusing "democracy" with "capitalism". I'm saying that capitalism has been subverted and our democracy is not protecting us from this subversion. If something is not done to rectify this, then the democracy is at risk of failing.

Yet that same system, you want to basically lay waste to a substantial area of another country, just because we CAN:

Where did I say that? Or do you consider a couple of city blocks "substantial"?

Face it, the Iraqi's are never going to be grateful for their liberation. The truth is the Arabs hated us before, they hate us now, and they will hate us tommarow. The idea that we are going to make friends of the Arabs in our lifetimes is pure fantasy. We need to make them respect and fear us. They think differently than we do, they do not value individual life the way we do. Simply invading and occupying their countries is not going to do the trick - as soon as we are gone they will revert right back to their old ways. They will say what you want to hear to your face, make promises, whatever to appease you, never meaning even one word of it. Only by demonstrating absolute power are we ever going to get them to realize they must change or die. And that is not going to be accomplished using conventional tactics.

You may be well schooled, but you are far from educated.

Kathianne, I worked for a year on the communications grid for one of the major nations we are frequently discussing, one very close to Afgahnistan. I worked side-by-side with Iranians, Palastinians, Pakistanis, and even an Iraqi EE. I worked with these people closely, ate dinner on a few occasions with their families, and starting about half way though the project I had opportunity to listen in on their private conversations and have them translated for me. I know what kind of people we are dealing with far far better than you ever will. They have no compunction whatsoever about lying, especially to an American. They have absolutely no respect for our society or our culture or our values. In fact, they hate us.

Wade.

 

[Annie]

Wade, I'll grant all you have said. From your selling shorts, to owning 2 businesses, to working in ME.

Now, explain why I should believe that your anecdotal experiences, which may well be accounted for by your personality, should lead the rest of us to join in your views.

 

[wade]

I only visited the ME, I did not work there. Most of the work was done here.

I wish I could go into detail. If I could you'd realize that my views about how the Arabs see us are true. But I cannot.

Wade.

 

[Annie]

I only visited the ME, I did not work there. Most of the work was done here.

I wish I could go into detail. If I could you'd realize that my views about how the Arabs see us are true. But I cannot.

Wade.

That's fine. Nothing to be done, just realize that your views are not widely accepted and you can convince more people by backing up your points with authorities you can site and a bit of fraternity, rather than superiority. Calling me stupid or whatever that was, was not a smart move.

 

[Comrade]

You are confusing "democracy" with "capitalism". I'm saying that capitalism has been subverted and our democracy is not protecting us from this subversion. If something is not done to rectify this, then the democracy is at risk of failing.

Kind of a catch 22... democracy refuses to allow it, but to force it to would kill democracy. I say live with it.

Kathianne, I worked for a year on the communications grid for one of the major nations we are frequently discussing, one very close to Afgahnistan. I worked side-by-side with Iranians, Palastinians, Pakistanis, and even an Iraqi EE. I worked with these people closely, ate dinner on a few occasions with their families, and starting about half way though the project I had opportunity to listen in on their private conversations and have them translated for me. I know what kind of people we are dealing with far far better than you ever will. They have no compunction whatsoever about lying, especially to an American. They have absolutely no respect for our society or our culture or our values.

They respect our power, for sure.

In fact, they hate us.

But they really hate the Jews, though. We can use that.

 

[NATO AIR]

i don't believe the majority of iranians and palestinians hate us.

the majority of iranians (especially the younger generations) continue to have a favorable view of the US and long for American leaders to take a greater role in helping them to achieve freedom from their failed theocracy and its mullah oppressors.

palestinians may feel very frustrated with pres. bush openly embracing israelis over them (a mistake IMO) but they still view Americans favorably. they recognize America as the only one who has the power to make their dreams happen (their own state and freedom from the israeli occupation and its many negatives). hell our own admiral onboard this ship served as a peace monitor on the palestinian side and if you ask him during a Q&A quarters, he'll tell you palestinians are the nicest people on Earth, they've just been taking bad advice for 50 odd years and they've been living with the consequences ever since, in a manner that has driven some foolishly to terrorism.

the hatred of jews and israelis is natural nowadays due to the israeli occupation. there are very few occupations in the world that endear themselves to the occupied population.

 

[Comrade]

i don't believe the majority of iranians and palestinians hate us.

the majority of iranians (especially the younger generations) continue to have a favorable view of the US and long for American leaders to take a greater role in helping them to achieve freedom from their failed theocracy and its mullah oppressors.

palestinians may feel very frustrated with pres. bush openly embracing israelis over them (a mistake IMO) but they still view Americans favorably.

Americans who as not already rapidly pro-Palestinian probably don't feel safe talking politics in Palestine.

Palistinian gripes do get tiresome though. They danced on 9-11. Saddam was their patron in 1991 and remain so, in no small numbers.

they recognize America as the only one who has the power to make their dreams happen (their own state and freedom from the israeli occupation and its many negatives).

If the Pals can't establish their own free government even under occasional Isreeli intervention they are useless.

No one stops them from adopting an open liberal Democracy except their own corrupt leaders and the people blind to it all.

PLO principles to establish Sharia law seem the common outlook after the Jews are beat and given their mass cultural mandate of hate I don't see much encouragement is need for them to slaughter all Jews ruthlessly under any victory scenario.

hell our own admiral onboard this ship served as a peace monitor on the palestinian side and if you ask him during a Q&A quarters, he'll tell you palestinians are the nicest people on Earth, they've just been taking bad advice for 50 odd years and they've been living with the consequences ever since, in a manner that has driven some foolishly to terrorism.

I find that with every terror bombing of Jews by a Palestinian, broadcasts go out of this mass murder, posters go up, and even trading cards for children get printed. The family still gets paid (Saddam or not), and a huge funeral is put on, with the Mom tearfully weeping over the family photo but if you interview the family I more often than not sense the pride they have for the act.

Celebrating mass murderers is a sign of a sick society, one certainly not reedemable by making Jews give in to them.

Palestinians are far worse than the Nazi's ever were, in their pursuit of Jew hatred.

the hatred of jews and israelis is natural nowadays due to the israeli occupation. there are very few occupations in the world that endear themselves to the occupied population.

Palestinian and the rest of Arab Islam never needed the excuse of occupation to war on Jews, they simply follow the example of genocide practiced under Mohammad againt early Jews in Islam, a religious mandate passed down through generations of learned scholars of the 'holy testaments'.

And no matter how self destruction to their own future they are in carrying out either direct sponsorship or passive acceptance of these acts, the pressure on Pals to kill Jews is immense. The Arab states need to keep the issues focused on Jews as the whipping boy, and the EU likes to play along. Everyone offers all kinds of money and doesnt ask where it goes.

The EU 'legitamacy' even grants Arafat a freakin Nobel Peace Prize, of all things.

The Palestinians are willing parties to the hate parade and show little sign in public and on the street of no dissention or lack of inhibition in expressing it.

What kind of society lets their children dig around for bloody martyr bits?

What kind of PARENT would allow their kids to run around as they do and throw rocks at armed soldiers?

The problem lies in the inability of Palestine to forget past greivance with the Jews and create their own future in the land almost all Palestinians have now been born and raised in. They are not helpless, and the Jews aren't stopping them.

The problem is also that no Arab state and most of the EU doesn't really want to see such Palestinian independance apart from Isreal and standing on its own. Arab leaders need the Jews to blame for all of modern Islams' barbarity and backwardness which make them failed states.

 

[wade]

Comrade,

It was the Zionists (Jews) who initiated the terror in the region, not the Arabs. I do not care for Arabs or their culture, as you probably already know, but the facts are the facts.

MASSACRES

Immediately after the vote of the UN Partition Plan of 1947, the Zionists aimed at confirming Jewish dominance over the 50% Arab living in the proposed Jewish state, and to expand those limits so as to include the greatest possible area--if not all Palestine--before Britain withdrew from the country on May 14, 1948. (Bitter Haevest, by Sami Hadawi,p.85) The Zionist plan of intention was disclosed during a conversation in December 1947 between a British officer of the Jordan Arab Legion and a Palestinian Government Jewish official. The former is reported to have asked the latter, “whether the new Jewish state would not have many internal trouble in view of the fact that the Arab inhabitants of the Jewish state would be equal in number to the Jews.” The Jewish official is reported to have replied, “oh no! That will be fixed. A few massacres will get rid of them.” Glubb, op. cit, p.81)

To the outside world the Zionists have often tried to excuse crimes as “isolated incidents,” “unpremeditated incidents,” “acts of ultra-extremists,” and other whitewashes that have misled the world public opinion.

In fact all Zionist war crimes and crimes against humanity are planned in advance and executed for a desired effect, with malice, aforethought and full knowledge of the consequences involved in order to serve the Zionist objective, namely, the annihilation of the Palestinian people and the establishment of the Jewish State.(Encyclopedia of Palestine, p.269)

The Zionists claimed that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis, but the Zionists killed more than 100,000 Palestinians and committed genocide by destroying the existence of Palestinians as a nation and made Palestinians refugees living in exile. Massacres are massacres, whether six million or one hundred thousand.(p.269)

THE KING DAVID MASSACRE:

Many massacres were first aimed at dislodging the British from Palestine. A major one was the King David Hotel massacre. According to Yitshaq Ben Ami, a Palestinian Jew who spent 30 years in exile after the establishment of Israel, investigating the crimes of the ‘ruthless clique heading the international Zionist Movement,’ “The Irgun had conceived a plan for the King David attack early in 1946, but the green light was given only on July first. According to Dr. Sneh, the operation was personally approved by Ben-Gurion, from his self-exile in Europe. Sadeh, the operation officer of the Haganah, and Giddy Paglin, the head of the Irgun operation under Menachem Begin agreed that thirty-five minutes advance notice would give the British time enough to evacuate the wing, without enabling them to disarm the Explosion. (Yitshaq Ben Ami, Years of Wrath, Days of Glory, 1982,p.377)[Enc. p.269]

The King David Hotel explosion of July 22, 1946, resulted in the death of 92 Britons, Arabs and Jews, and in the wounding of 58, was not just an “extremist act” of “Jewish extremists,” but a premeditated massacre conducted by the Irgun in agreement with the highest political authorities in Palestine, the Jewish Agency and its head David Ben Gurion. The Jewish Agency motive was to destroy all evidence the British had gathered proving that the terrorist crime waves in Palestine were not merely the actions of “fringe” groups such as the Irgun and Stern Gang, but were committed in collision with the Haganah and Palmach groups and under the Jewish Agency itself.

The following is a statement made in the House of Commons by then British Prime Minister Clement Attlee:

“On July 22, 1946, one of the most dastardly and cowardly crimes in recorded history took place. We refer to the blowing up of King David Hotel in Jerusalem.

Ninety-two persons lost their lives in that stealthy attack, and 45 were injured, among whom there were many high officials, junior officers and office personnel, both men and women. The King David Hotel was used as an office housing the Secretariat of Palestine Government and British Army Headquarters. The attack was made on 22 July at about 12 o’clock noon when officers are usually in full swing. The attackers, disguised as milkmen, carried the explosives in milk containers, placed them in the basement of the hotel and ran away."(Enc.of,P.,p.267-8)

THE SEMIRAMIS HOTEL MASSACRE:

The Jewish Agency escalated their terror campaign against Palestinian Arabs. They decided to perpetrate a wholesale massacre by bombing the Seniramis Hotel in the Katamon section of Jerusalem, in order to drive out the Palestinians from Jerusalem. The massacre on January 5, 1948, was a direct responsibility of the Jewish Agency leader David Ben Gurion and the Haganah leaders Moshe Sneh and Yesrael Galili.

A description of the Semiramis Hotel from the UN documents reveals: “5 January 1948, Haganah terrorists made a most barbarous attack at one o’clock in the early morning of Monday, 5 January 1948, at Semiramis Hotel in the Katamon section of Jerusalem killing innocent people and wounding many. The Jewish terrorist forces blasted the entrance to the hotel by a small bomb and then placed bombs in the basement of the building. As a result of the explosion the whole building collapsed with its residents. As the terrorists withdrew, they started shooting at the houses in the neighborhood.” Those killed were 19, beside 16 more were wounded, among them women and children. (UN Security Council official Records, Supplements 1948, Doc. S /740.(Encyclopedia of Palestine,p.270)

DEIR YASSIN MASSACRE:

The first major most notorious massacre in the 1948 War was the massacre of Deir Yassin, a small village near Jerusalem, on April 9/10, 1948. It was designed to spread terror and panic among the Palestinian population in every city and village of Palestine in order to frighten the defenseless people into fleeing their homes out of fear for their lives, so that their homes and land could be confiscated for the use of Jewish colonialist settlers.

Two hundred and fifty people were slaughtered. Mutilating the bodies, even before death, the culprits cut off parts and opened the bellies of others. Nursing babies were butchered on the bosoms of helpless mothers. Of those 250 people, twenty-five pregnant women were bayoneted in their abdomens while still alive. Fifty-two children were maimed under the eyes of their own mothers, then slain and their heads cut off. Their mothers were in turn massacred and their bodies mutilated. About sixty other women and girls were also killed and their bodies mutilated. Such are the historical facts concerning the horrible crime perpetrated against the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin.(Encyclopedia of Palestine, Vol.I,.p.271).

The marauders were not satisfied with what they had committed. They gathered the women and girls who were still alive and after removing all their clothes, they put them in open cars, driving them naked through the streets of the Jewish section of Jerusalem, where the onlookers were cheering and jeering. Many even took pictures as souvenirs. Jon Kimche, author and correspondent who was in Jerusalem at the time, described the attack as “the darkest stain on the Jewish record” He added, “...it is historically important because it was to become the beginning of a second legend with which the terrorists sought to serve their cause and justify their deeds. Just as they claimed credit for the British decision to leave Palestine as being the result of terrorists’ attack on British troops, so later they justify the massacre of Deir Yasin because it led to the panic flight of the remaining Arabs in the Jewish state and so lessened the Jewish casualties.” (The Seven Pillars, [New York Times: F.A. Praeger, 1953] p.228, quoted in Bitter Harvest by Sami Hadawi,p.85.)

Dov Joseph, one-time Governor of the Israeli sector of Jerusalem and later Minister of Justice, called it a “deliberate and unprovoked attack,”(The Faithful City: The Seige of Jerusalem, 1948(NYT:Simon and Schuster,1960)p.71. Meanwhile British historian Arnold Toynbee described it as “comparable to crimes committed against the Jews by the Nazis.” (A study of History,[London, Oxford University Press, 1953-54, Vol. VIII, p.290.) Quoted in Sami Hadawi’s Bitter Harvest,p.85)

Yet the great perpetrator of this massacre, Menachem Begin who in the 70s became Prime Minister of Israel, glorified the act saying, “The massacre was not only justified, but there would not have been a state without the victory of Deir Yassin.” (Jewish Newsletter, October 3, 1960) quoted in Sami Hadawi’s Bitter Harvest,p.85)

Other unpublished massacres similar to the massacre of Deir Yassin, later came to light through an article written by Ariel Yitzhaqi, historian and researcher, published by Yediot Aharanot in its issue of April 14, 1972, in which the writer accuses the Palmach of similar operations that he states were not restricted to ETZEL and LEHI. “If we assemble the facts,” writes Yitzhaqi, “we realize that, to a great extent, the battle followed the familiar pattern of the occupation of an Arab village in 1948. In the first months of the War of Independence, Haganah and Palmach troops carried out dozens of operations of this (Deir Yassin) kind, the method adopted being to raid an enemy village and blow up as many houses as possible in in. In the course of these operations, Yitzhaqi then listed the Arab villages raide and the number of Arabs killed as follows:

1. The village of Balad Esh-Sheikh was attacked. “In this operation, more than 60 of the enemy, most of them non-combatants, were killed in their houses.”

2. The village of Sa’sa’ was attacked.. “In this operation, which was for many years to be regarded as a model raid because of the high standard of its execution, 20 houses were blown up over their inhabitants, and some 60 Arabs were killed, most of them were women and children.”

3. In the battle for Kattamon Quarter of Jerusalem, “Arab women working in the St. Simon Monestry as servants were killed.”

4. In Lydda town, the Palmach claim that “the local population rose in revolt, and to suppress the revolt, orders were given to fire on anyone seen in the streets. Yeftah troops opened fire on all passers-by and suppress the revolt mercilessly in a few hours, going from house to house and firing at every moving target. According to the commander’s report 250 Arabs were killed in the fighting.”(Sami Hadawi, p.88. The Journal of Palestine Studies. Vol.I, No.4, Summer 1972, pp.142-46)

Another massacre of Arab civilians occured in October 1948 in the Lebanese-border village of Hula, and only recently came to light as a result of the appointment of Shamuel Lahis as the new Secretary-General of the Jewish Agency who had been convicted for his part in the crime.

According to a report by Dov Yirmaya, “there had been no resistence in the village, that there was no enemy activity in the area, and that about a hundred people were in the village. They had surrendered and had requested to be allowed to stay.”

The men--some fifty of them ranging between the ages of 15-60 years-- were kept in one house. When asked by the troop commander if he should send them away to follow the rest of the villagers, Yermaya states that he ordered Lahis to keep them and made sure that they had whatever they needed until he had asked the brigade what to do with them.

Yermaya goes on to say that, “when I returned to the village the following morning with an order to send the villagers away, I found that while I was away, two of the troops’ officers had killed all the captives who were in the house with a sub-machine gun, and had then blown up the house on top of them to be their grave.” (R. Barkanin Al-Hamshmar, quoted from Journal of Palestine Study, Vol.VIII, No.4, Summer 1978) 18 p.89.) [Encyclopedia of Palestine,p.

 

[wade]

(Cont.)

THE MASSACRE OF DAWAYMA:

Another unpublished massacre that took place on October 29, 1948. The following is a testimony of a soldier who partisipated in the occupation of the Palestinian village of Dawayma(in Haifa sub-district) on October 29, 1948 is only the most recently disclosed item in a long chain of evidence:

“...They killed between eighty to one hundred Arab men, women, and children. To kill the children, they (soldiers) fractured their heads with sticks. There was not one home without corpses. The men and women of the village were pushed into houses without food or water. Then the saboteurs came to dynamite them.

One commander ordered a soldier to bring two women into a building he was about to blow up...Another soldier prided himself upon having raped an Arab woman before shooting her to death. Another Arab woman and her baby was made to clean up the place for a couple of days, then they shot her and the baby. Educated and well-mannered commanders who were considered “good guys”...became base murderers, and this is not in the storm of battle, but as a method of expulsion and extermination The fewer the Arabs who remain, the better.”[Davar, June 9, 1979]. Encyclopedia of Palestine, p.272; and in Bitter Harvest by Sami Hadawi, p.89. Sami Hadawi says there were 200 people ages between 70 and 90 years who could not make it to the borders and took refuge in the village mosque were murdered and the building blown over them to be their grave.

THE MASSACRE OF KIBYA:

The government of Israel claimed that the massacre was carried out by “civilian Jewish settlers”. But records showed that it was sanctioned by acting Prime Minister Moshe Sharrett, and was planned by Defence Minister Pin Has Lavon, the Chief of General Staff Mordacai Maklet, and Chief of Operations, General Moshe Dayan, in concert with vacationing Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion.

The massacre of Kibya on October 14, 1953, was a continuation of such brutal massacres.

At 9:30 p.m., on Wednesday, October, 1953, Israeli troops attacked the border Jordanian village of Kibya, Northwest of Jerusalem. Seven hundred regular Israeli troops participated in the attack in which morters, machine guns, rifels and explosives were used. Forty-two houses as well as the school and the mosque of the village were dynamited. Every man, woman, and child found by the criminal attackers was killed; all in all, seventy-five innocent villagers were murdered in cold blood that night. Later, the attackers turned the fire on the cattle, killing 22 cows. The attack was the bloodiest and most brutal Zionist crime since the infamous Deir Yassin massacre in 1948.(Enc.p.273)

On October 26, General Van Bennike testified before the UN Security Council. He gave irrefutable evidence that the attack on Kibya was undertaken by regular army units of Israel and not by irregulars as claimed by official Israeli sources. The following is some exerpts of the text:

“Bullet-riddled bodies near the doorways and multiple bullet hits on the doors of the demolished houses indicated that the inhabitants had been forced to remain inside until their houses were blown up over them. There were several small craters along the western peremeter of the village, and the tails of two-inch morter shells were found...Fragmants easily identified as parts of Bangalore torpedoes were found near those gaps.”(Encyclopedia of Palestine, p.274)

The following comments are made by Passionist Father Ralph Gorman, Editor of the Sign, National Catholic Magazine of the USA:

“Terror was a political weapon of the Nazis. But the Nazis never used terror in a more cold-blooded and wanton manner than the Israelis in the massacre of Kibya.

Then followed an orgy of murder that would be incredible if it had been verified by reliable neutral testimony. Women and children as well as men were murdered delibrately, systematically, and in cold blood.(Bitter Harvest,p.119)

The only response the Israelis have made to outraged protest of the civilized world had been one of defiance and self-justification. Prime Minister David Ben Gurion excused the murderers. Israeli newspapers openly gloated over the deed, and even American Zionists showed little concern other than a fear that American dollars might not continue to flow as freely as before into the coffers of the new state.”(Enc.,p.275)

John Barwick is an American citizen who was for many years YMCA's representative in the Middle East and was then living in Jerusalem wrote:

“FA 43, that is what is stamped on the rim of the shell. There is a dent in the copper center which means it had done its job. But it was still vigorous enough at midnight on October 14, 1953 to penetrate a baby’s skull as it lay in his mother’s lap. Its fellows in the magzine of that gun did the same for a three-year old boy, his four-year old sister and their mother. Their bodies were bowed as in prayer when the stones of their home were lifted off them. Those who made the cartridge hoped it would keep the Nazis behind the Rhine.”[Tension, Terror and Blood in the Holy Land, pp.127-128 - quoted in Encyclopedia of Palestine, p.275.]

No less a Zionist figure than I.L. Kenen, the founding father of AIPAC (American Israel Public Affair Committy), the official Israeli lobby inthe USA reveald in his memoir: ”I was on my way home on the subway, headed for Riverdale, when I heard a brief news flash in the World Telegram discussing that 66 Arabs had been killed at Kibya...I did not know until years later that the raid was ordered by Ariel Sharon, the Israeli commander who led the invasion of Lebanon in 1982.”(I.L. Kenen, All My Causes, p.60) quoted in Encyclopedia of Palestine,p..

THE MASSACRE OF KAFR KASSIM:

The Israeli daily, Kol Haam, on Wednesday, December 19, 1956, on its front page under the title, “This Way Were the forty- nine Inhabitants of Kafr Kassim Slautered.”

On October 29, 1956, the day that Israeli Frontier Guards started at 4 p.m. what they called a tour of the Triangle Villages. They informed the Mukhtars and the rural councils that the curfew in those villages was from that day onwards to be observed from 5 p.m. instead of 6 p.m., and that the inhabitants were required to stay at home as from that instant.

One of the villages was Kafr Kassim, a small village situated near the Israeli settlement of Betah Tekfa. The villages there received the alert at 4:45 p.m., only 15 minutes before the new curfew time. The Mukhtar tried to convince the officer that the villagers whose work took them outside the village would not be able to able to receive the warning in time. The officer told him that his soldiers would take care of that. The villagers who were home complied. Meanwhile the officers posted themselves at the village gates. Before long the first batch of villagers, home-bound on bicycles, came into sight unaware of the curfew. They were met by the soldiers who shot them at a close range. Others, unaware of the danger awaiting them, started to reach the village entrance. They were met with the same fate. When the massacre finished, officers moved around to finish off whoever still had a pulse beating.

According to their soldiers,“There will be no wounded.” The blood bath was not restricted to the entrance or outskirts, but was carried right into the village itself. The next day, 31 October, a curfew was imposed and during the curfew, the Israeli police brought over some villagers from the neighboring Gagoulia and ordered them to bury the corpses, which included fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters.

“With two or three exceptions, the press has been party to a conspiracy of silence, throwing a veil over the ‘incident’. It wrote of condemned men instead of killers; instead of a killing in Kafr Kassim, it wrote of a’mistake’ and a ‘misfortune’ and a ‘regrettable incident.’ When it mentioned the victims of the calamity, it was difficult to tell whom it meant, the dead or the killers.”[Ner, August-October 1959, Baaz Evron; and Ha’aretz, 18 Nov. 1959 - quoted in Bitter Harvest by Sami Hdawi, pp.155-57.]

SABRA AND SHATILA MASSACRE:

All the above mentioned massacres are particularly pale compared to the carnage at Sabra and Shatila Palestinian Camps in Beirut, Lebanon in 1982, during the Israeli invasionof Lebanon.

The mass murder of 2,750 men,women,and children(according to a body count taken by the International Red Cross on September 23, 1982), whose only “crime” was to be homeless exiles from their native land, by Phalangist puppets of the Israelis.

The studies disclosed that any rational person would place the responsibility on the Israelis for inspiring the massacres. Without question it has been established that the Israelis bear responsibility for the killing.

The principal war criminal bearing legal responsibilty for the massacre was the then Israeli Minister of Defence, General Ariel Sharon--the perpetrator of the Kibya Massacre nearly 30 years before. He was aided by the Foreign Minister, Yitzhak Shamir, who previously had criminal responsibility associated with Deir Yassin Massacre and other massacres and the assasination of UN Represntative Count Folke Bernadotte. Responsibility was shared by by Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, guilty of war crime atrocities in both King David Hotel, and that of Deir Yassin massacres. (Encyclopedia of Palestine, p.284.)

These senior Israeli Generals were found to have Command Responsibility for the Sabra and Shatila war crime. Chief of Staff General Rafael Eitan, Commanding General of the Northern Command, General Ami Drori, and the Field Commander for the IDF division occupying West Beirut, Brigadier General Amos Yaron, were all found guilty of criminal responsibility related to the Sabra and Shatila massaxre.

Commander Burnett concluded in the issue No. 107 of Military Law Review, the official legal periodical of the USA Department of Defence; “The screams of the victims at Dunbo, My Lai, and Sabra and Shatila should never be forgotten. In assessing the blame for such atrocities, command responsibility must play a key role.”(Military Law Review, No.107, Winter Issue 1985, p.186) quoted in Enc.O.P.,p.284.

CONCLUSION:

"Systematic analysis of these massacres indicates the presence of a pattern:


"These war crimes were not isolated incidents erratically performed by fringe groups of military units which had lost their coherence, but instead were conducted with predetermined objectives.

"Each massacre was planned in advance for a political rather than military purpose.

"Each massacre was conducted for psychological terroristic impact not solely related to the massacre itself.

"Each massacre was conducted under the auspises of a well-defined chain of command descending from a political authority to a terroristic organization or a military structure.

"The individuals who are actually the war criminals were never conscripts, but voluntary leaders sharing Zionist ideological fervor; and regardless of political party affiliations, those individuals with proven guilt in war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, such as Ben Gurion, Dayan, Begin, Shamir, Rabin, Sharon, and Peres, as examples, seem to have ensured political dominance in Israel by individuals who were guilty of these war crimes in their past. This would seem to indicate a criminal conspiracy to ensure that those guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity and genocide would never be brought to justice, and that those who would oppose the perpetration of these crimes would always be excluded from achieving real political power in Israel.” (Encyclopedia of Palestine)

And if you wonder why such brutal and unjust massacres occured, Professor Israel Shahak has the answer. Shahak draws our attention to a booklet in which “An Army Rabbi Calls for the Killing of Civilians.” The call is paraphrased as: “When our forces encounter the civilians during the war or in course of pursuit or a raid, the encountered civilians may and by Halachic standards even must, be killed.” The Rabbi reffered to was Lt. Col. Rabbi Abraham Avidian (Zemel), chief Rabbi of the Central Command.(Sami Hadawi, p.89)
http://www.angelfire.com/ia/palestinefoever/massacre.html

Deir Yassin Remembered - by: Daniel A. McGowan
list of the massacres committed by the Zionists
Jewish/Israeli Massacres and Terrorism
Interview with Ariel Sharon published in the Israeli daily Davar Dec. 17, 1982


Lets not mistake the situation here. The Israelis and their policies of racism and land theft are what has created this whole mess in the Middle East. It has come to bite us in the ass because we have supported them without regaurd to justice in Israel-Palastine.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I say they deserve a little slice of earth after almost being genocided out of existence by SOCIALISTS LOOKING TO BLAME THE ILLS OF SOCIETY UPON AN ECONOMICALLY SUCCESSFUL GROUP. Sound familiar?

 

[wade]

Well we agree. I think the Jews had a right to a homeland, if that is what they wanted. I just don't agree they had the right to pick an area already occupied by a another culture who had been living on that land for over a thousand years, especially without compensation to those people.

But that is beside the point - the point is that Terrorism in the modern ME was initiated by the Zionists, not the Arabs.

Think of how much better the world would be today if the Zionists had setup their Jewish homeland in Argentina or Brazil.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well we agree. I think the Jews had a right to a homeland, if that is what they wanted. I just don't agree they had the right to pick an area already occupied by a another culture who had been living on that land for over a thousand years, especially without compensation to those people.

But that is beside the point - the point is that Terrorism in the modern ME was initiated by the Zionists, not the Arabs.

Think of how much better the world would be today if the Zionists had setup their Jewish homeland in Argentina or Brazil.

Wade.

Wade, nearly every ongoing violent conflict in the world involves muslims. Weren't you just saying how beyond repair their entire culture is on another thread? Now it's the jews fault. Make up your mind, John Kerry. (That's the worst thing you could ever call anyone!)

 

[wade]

Wade, nearly every ongoing violent conflict in the world involves muslims. Weren't you just saying how beyond repair their entire culture is on another thread? Now it's the jews fault. Make up your mind, John Kerry. (That's the worst thing you could ever call anyone!)

You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say they are beyond repair, I said they are not ready for and do not want Democracy. I guess to you the two things are equal.

What has created the situation with the Arab nations is, more than anything else, the existance and actions of the state of Isreal in Palastine.

There is no conflict in my statements at all.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say they are beyond repair, I said they are not ready for and do not want Democracy. I guess to you the two things are equal.

What has created the situation with the Arab nations is, more than anything else, the existance and actions of the state of Isreal in Palastine.

There is no conflict in my statements at all.

Wade.

No. Your opinion seemed solidly that democracy could never work there. That means beyond repair in my book. Here we go with the backpedalling and revisionism. There is conflict. When you were trying to be mr. xenophobic hawk, trying in a misguided attempt to curry favor here by posing as what you think we are, you said exactly that very thing. Now you say it's the jews fault. Total conflict in my book. Go ahead, scream and cry about it. You're intellectually dishonest to the core and a worse flip flopper than Kerry.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Wade, the truth is a cruel mistress, but serve her and nothing else, and you will be rewarded tenfold.

 

[wade]

No. Your opinion seemed solidly that democracy could never work there. That means beyond repair in my book. Here we go with the backpedalling and revisionism. There is conflict. When you were trying to be mr. xenophobic hawk, trying in a misguided attempt to curry favor here by posing as what you think we are, you said exactly that very thing. Now you say it's the jews fault. Total conflict in my book. Go ahead, scream and cry about it. You're intellectually dishonest to the core and a worse flip flopper than Kerry.

No, what I am saying is that democracy cannot work with this generation of Iraqi's, because they don't want it. It is contrary to a lifetime of being taught the ways of the Qu'ran.

To be racist, I'd have to be saying it was genetics that made them unfit for democracy, I'm not. It is their culture that makes them extremely unlikely to accept democracy.

And I don't blame the Jews, I blame the Zionists for this whole mess. They just had to take back land they'd not owned for almost 2000 years in a part of the world where it was obvious they would not be accepted. If not for Israel being in Palastine this whole mess would not exist.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

No, what I am saying is that democracy cannot work with this generation of Iraqi's, because they don't want it. It is contrary to a lifetime of being taught the ways of the Qu'ran.

To be racist, I'd have to be saying it was genetics that made them unfit for democracy, I'm not. It is their culture that makes them extremely unlikely to accept democracy.

And I don't blame the Jews, I blame the Zionists for this whole mess. They just had to take back land they'd not owned for almost 2000 years in a part of the world where it was obvious they would not be accepted. If not for Israel being in Palastine this whole mess would not exist.

Wade.

Then the whole generation of them will die. If that's what it takes. Must the world tolerate a completely dysfunctional generation of young men, created by tyrants? I think not.

Oh. And I think the Zionists are jews.

 

[wade]

Then the whole generation of them will die. If that's what it takes. Must the world tolerate a completely dysfunctional generation of young men, created by tyrants? I think not.

Perhaps. Alternatively we could think forms of government that will be acceptable to the existing generation and allow the next generation to learn enough to desire democracy.

Oh. And I think the Zionists are jews.

Ahh.. yes... All Zionists are Jews. But not all Jews are Zionists.