Zone1 Things that block people from God

[buttercup]

And then there are plenty of people who aren't religious, but aren't bad people either. I'm not religious and I don't go around killing people, fighting, drinking, doing bad things. So... why would I be "blocked"? When there are plenty of religious people who are not good people.

In discussions like this I hear that so often from atheists and agnostics... Things like "I'm a pretty good person, I don't do bad things." But here's the thing. What standard are you going by?

You probably won't like to hear this, but the important thing to understand is that ultimately the only standard that truly matters is God's. And God's standard is perfection. So according to THAT standard, no one is truly good, on their own. And that's what the bible says (Romans 3:10)

Btw, I think you might be misunderstanding my use of the word "blocked." I didn't mean permanently blocked. And I didn't even mean completely blocked, necessarily. I just meant that there are certain things that can be barriers to belief / faith in God.

I still don't see how pride can impact people. Again, a lot of people with too much pride are religious.

I don't know how to explain this, but you know how some people have a teachable heart.... and others think they are so smart and act like know-it-alls, because of pride? Well, learning new things and changing one's position or views on certain things based on newly learned facts takes humility. Which is the opposite of pride. When one is prideful, it's harder for them to change or receive correction from anyone, because their pride prevents that.

So pride can be a stumbling block, or something that blinds. And from a biblical perspective, the bible is clear that pride is self-defeating. Because God opposes pride and eventually it leads to a fall. And the reverse is true, God shows favor to the humble.

If someone really does want to believe in God, then I can't stress this enough, pride is a barrier that needs to be dropped.

For me "the enemy" seems so vague... it doesn't actually mean anything.

I get that... Since you're a non-Christian, I don't expect you to believe that or wrap your mind around it. And I fully get that it DOES sound hard to believe. But let me tell you, I have experienced it first hand. There's definitely a spiritual 'dark side' and it's not something you want to open the door to. But again, I don't expect you to take my word for it, you can take it or leave it.

The problem with number four is that if a person doesn't have religion, they'll be focused on "worldly things", so how do babies, who are focused on worldly things, get unblocked and believe in God to them not be so interested in worldly things? Seems you have to be unblocked first....

Who said that babies were blocked? The list in the OP does not apply to babies or small children. But anyway, to answer what you said, yes, a person who doesn't have God / religion is more likely to be focused on "worldly things" but again, there's a range.... and I think even non-Christians can agree that there are certain things in this life that aren't really the best or wisest use of our time. But I think the more important point, that is getting missed here, is that God doesn't want us to love and focus only on created things (temporary things) but what's far more important, the Creator, and truth.

 

[FDR_Reagan]

1. Sin (Isaiah 59:2, Colossians 1:21)
2. Pride (Psalm 10:4, James 4:6)
3. The enemy (2 Corinthians 4:4)
4. Preoccupation with this world (1 John 2:15, Romans 1:25)

Sometimes I hear nonbelievers say things like "I would like to believe, but I just don't." So for the sake of those who say that with sincerity, I felt it would be worthwhile to point out that certain things can block people from God. Or another way to put it is, there are certain things that are blinding.

This may not be a complete list, so if you're a believer, feel free to add to this list, in case I left anything out.

Thanks. God bless

 

[frigidweirdo]

In discussions like this I hear that so often from atheists and agnostics... Things like "I'm a pretty good person, I don't do bad things." But here's the thing. What standard are you going by?

You probably won't like to hear this, but the important thing to understand is that ultimately the only standard that truly matters is God's. And God's standard is perfection. So according to THAT standard, no one is truly good, on their own. And that's what the bible says (Romans 3:10)

Btw, I think you might be misunderstanding my use of the word "blocked." I didn't mean permanently blocked. And I didn't even mean completely blocked, necessarily. I just meant that there are certain things that can be barriers to belief / faith in God.




I don't know how to explain this, but you know how some people have a teachable heart.... and others think they are so smart and act like know-it-alls, because of pride? Well, learning new things and changing one's position or views on certain things based on newly learned facts takes humility. Which is the opposite of pride. When one is prideful, it's harder for them to change or receive correction from anyone, because their pride prevents that.

So pride can be a stumbling block, or something that blinds. And from a biblical perspective, the bible is clear that pride is self-defeating. Because God opposes pride and eventually it leads to a fall. And the reverse is true, God shows favor to the humble.

If someone really does want to believe in God, then I can't stress this enough, pride is a barrier that needs to be dropped.




I get that... Since you're a non-Christian, I don't expect you to believe that or wrap your mind around it. And I fully get that it DOES sound hard to believe. But let me tell you, I have experienced it first hand. There's definitely a spiritual 'dark side' and it's not something you want to open the door to. But again, I don't expect you to take my word for it, you can take it or leave it.




Who said that babies were blocked? The list in the OP does not apply to babies or small children. But anyway, to answer what you said, yes, a person who doesn't have God / religion is more likely to be focused on "worldly things" but again, there's a range.... and I think even non-Christians can agree that there are certain things in this life that aren't really the best or wisest use of our time. But I think the more important point, that is getting missed here, is that God doesn't want us to love and focus only on created things (temporary things) but what's far more important, the Creator, and truth.

Even with Christians or other religious people, they might think they're "pretty good people" and by what standard are they going by?

You say that "God's standard" is the only one.

Let's go back to Noah's Ark. God made humans. He literally started from a blank sheet and he made humans. He put them in the garden of Eden and said "don't eat the apple". Now, if he'd made humans "in his image" then either they wouldn't have eaten the apple because God wouldn't have eaten the apple, or they ate the apple because God would totally have gone for the apple.

Then later on, after what, 900 years or something, God looks at humans and is like "these people are violent". Remember the "made in God's image" thing. So, God's response to violent humans is to KILL ALL HUMANS, ALL ANIMALS (except, you'd suppose those who live in the sea) except for Noah, his family and two of every animal.

Right there, this tells me what God's standards are. He violent, he's aggressive and he's a bit thick.

I'm not sure the "blocked" bit matters that much at this stage of the conversation. Doesn't matter whether it's a bit blocked, totally blocked, I think what you mean is that someone isn't religious because God hasn't connected with them in some way, I think different people might view the technicalities differently, but the gist is the same.

As for pride, yes, there are people who won't listen. But I think a lot of religious people are like this. They've been taught their religion from a young age, they're comfortable with it, and their views have solidified.

Basically I'm thinking the exact opposite to you, I'm thinking that pride can be a reason for people to remain religion, to not question what's around them, just to accept. It can happen to those who aren't, as well. Most people have solidified views by the time they get to about 30 years old.

If a person wants to believe in God, they will. It doesn't take much. A person who says "I'd really like to believe in God, but..." is a person who's selling you themselves. They're saying "You're religion, and I want you to like me, but I'm not going to be religious, so I'll say I'd like to be like you, I'll say you must be a good person because you're religious, but really, I'm just using my EQ on you"

As for "the dark side", I'm guessing when you start believing, anything is possible. Religion certain has a lot of bad people and bad ideas that have cemented themselves into society and into people's minds.

As for babies, babies are born and raised by people. Muslim families will pump out Muslim kids, not because they're born that way, but because they're raised like that. Same with most other religions, I'd guess.

I'd say that a person who is religious is just as likely to have worldly things as anyone else. The Christian pastors with big houses and big cars, who gives up all their excess money to the poor? Hardly anyone. They might give up a percentage, but not all excess money.

What does God really want? Based on the beginning of the Bible... who knows? He wants servants who do what they're told, not do what God does?

 

[buttercup]

Even with Christians or other religious people, they might think they're "pretty good people" and by what standard are they going by?

You say that "God's standard" is the only one.

I didn't say that God's standard is the only one. I said it is the only one that truly matters, ultimately.

Let's go back to Noah's Ark. God made humans. He literally started from a blank sheet and he made humans. He put them in the garden of Eden and said "don't eat the apple". Now, if he'd made humans "in his image" then either they wouldn't have eaten the apple because God wouldn't have eaten the apple, or they ate the apple because God would totally have gone for the apple.

Then later on, after what, 900 years or something, God looks at humans and is like "these people are violent". Remember the "made in God's image" thing. So, God's response to violent humans is to KILL ALL HUMANS, ALL ANIMALS (except, you'd suppose those who live in the sea) except for Noah, his family and two of every animal.

Right there, this tells me what God's standards are. He violent, he's aggressive and he's a bit thick.

You're getting into other topics, and I actually do want to reply and address some of the things you brought up here. But it's getting late and I don't want to write a rushed reply, so.... for now I want to stay on topic and if I have time tomorrow, I'll try to get back to some of the other stuff you brought up.

I will say one thing real quick though. What happened before the flood is not what you (and other nonbelievers) seem to think. The earth was incredibly violent and evil at that time, because of something called the 'Nephilim', and I would like to elaborate, but again, it would take some time to adequately explain all this, and it's off topic so I'm not going to do that right now.

I'm not sure the "blocked" bit matters that much at this stage of the conversation. Doesn't matter whether it's a bit blocked, totally blocked, I think what you mean is that someone isn't religious because God hasn't connected with them in some way, I think different people might view the technicalities differently, but the gist is the same.

As for pride, yes, there are people who won't listen. But I think a lot of religious people are like this. They've been taught their religion from a young age, they're comfortable with it, and their views have solidified.

An important thing to say here is that there's a difference between merely being "religious" and being saved / spiritually born. The overwhelming majority of this world adhere to a religion, but that's not the same thing, necessarily, as true spiritual birth / regeneration.

So, the "religious" people who do evil things, or are always prideful, or act just like everyone else in the world most likely did not go through true salvation....because although even people who are saved aren't perfect and still mess up from time to time, you really do become a new creation. (2 Cor 5:17) You have an entirely new perspective, new interests, new desires, new priorities.... and it's a continuous process of growth and maturity. While salvation happens in an instant, spiritual growth and sanctification is an ongoing process that takes years, or even decades.

Basically I'm thinking the exact opposite to you, I'm thinking that pride can be a reason for people to remain religion, to not question what's around them, just to accept. It can happen to those who aren't, as well. Most people have solidified views by the time they get to about 30 years old.

If a person wants to believe in God, they will. It doesn't take much. A person who says "I'd really like to believe in God, but..." is a person who's selling you themselves. They're saying "You're religion, and I want you to like me, but I'm not going to be religious, so I'll say I'd like to be like you, I'll say you must be a good person because you're religious, but really, I'm just using my EQ on you"

As for "the dark side", I'm guessing when you start believing, anything is possible. Religion certain has a lot of bad people and bad ideas that have cemented themselves into society and into people's minds.

As for babies, babies are born and raised by people. Muslim families will pump out Muslim kids, not because they're born that way, but because they're raised like that. Same with most other religions, I'd guess.

I'd say that a person who is religious is just as likely to have worldly things as anyone else. The Christian pastors with big houses and big cars, who gives up all their excess money to the poor? Hardly anyone. They might give up a percentage, but not all excess money.

What does God really want? Based on the beginning of the Bible... who knows? He wants servants who do what they're told, not do what God does?

Those televangelists with mansions and private jets, etc, are almost always wolves in sheep's clothing. Again, anyone can say they're "religious." What did Jesus say about false prophets? He said "You will know them by their fruits."

So obviously if some televangelist is taking people's money so that they can buy a mansion while not living a Godly life, his "fruits" are not good, the person's a fraud.

What is good fruit, spiritually speaking? The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

And now I really do have to sign off here. I've been trying to get to bed by midnight, and the clock just struck midnight a few minutes ago.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I didn't say that God's standard is the only one. I said it is the only one that truly matters, ultimately.



You're getting into other topics, and I actually do want to reply and address some of the things you brought up here. But it's getting late and I don't want to write a rushed reply, so.... for now I want to stay on topic and if I have time tomorrow, I'll try to get back to some of the other stuff you brought up.

I will say one thing real quick though. What happened before the flood is not what you (and other nonbelievers) seem to think. The earth was incredibly violent and evil at that time, because of something called the 'Nephilim', and I would like to elaborate, but again, it would take some time to adequately explain all this, and it's off topic so I'm not going to do that right now.




An important thing to say here is that there's a difference between merely being "religious" and being saved / spiritually born. The overwhelming majority of this world adhere to a religion, but that's not the same thing, necessarily, as true spiritual birth / regeneration.

So, the "religious" people who do evil things, or are always prideful, or act just like everyone else in the world most likely did not go through true salvation....because although even people who are saved aren't perfect and still mess up from time to time, you really do become a new creation. (2 Cor 5:17) You have an entirely new perspective, new interests, new desires, new priorities.... and it's a continuous process of growth and maturity. While salvation happens in an instant, spiritual growth and sanctification is an ongoing process that takes years, or even decades.




Those televangelists with mansions and private jets, etc, are almost always wolves in sheep's clothing. Again, anyone can say they're "religious." What did Jesus say about false prophets? He said "You will know them by their fruits."

So obviously if some televangelist is taking people's money so that they can buy a mansion while not living a Godly life, his "fruits" are not good, the person's a fraud.

What is good fruit, spiritually speaking? The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

And now I really do have to sign off here. I've been trying to get to bed by midnight, and the clock just struck midnight a few minutes ago.

Well, I'd disagree that God's standard is the most important. You have to live around the people around you. You might have to work with people and your religion is saying they're bad people, but you might think differently.

Well, religious and saved and whatnot would seem to be pride with religion "Oh, I'm not religious, I'm reborn"... seems rather snobby to me.

Thing about wolves in sheep's clothing is... how do you know that isn't just what religion is?

Popes over the ages have been truly evil people, people who wanted power went through the church to get that power. People try to say "religion is this" but is it? Or are you just trying to make your view fit?

 

[TruthNotBS]

I'm not running. I'm here, if you want to have an actual discussion about the topic and be civil. But what I'm seeing from you is angry hateful rants against Christianity and Christians.... and bringing up other topics that would derail the thread.

You already stated your thoughts on the topic, you clearly don't agree that the things in the OP block you from God, you basically said you don't believe because you think the Christian God is a horrible tyrannical evil God. And I tried having an actual conversation with you, and I replied saying that your perception is wrong. But I can see that trying to convince you is pointless, so why is it so hard for you to simply accept that I'm not here to argue with you? This thread is not an apologetics thread, it's not about trying to convince you of God or Christianity. Again, especially with anyone filled with so much anger and hate.

I'm not running. I'm here, if you want to have an actual discussion about the topic and be civil.

Sure. The topic is: "Things that block people from God" and you assert:

"

1. Sin (Isaiah 59:2, Colossians 1:21)
2. Pride (Psalm 10:4, James 4:6)
3. The enemy (2 Corinthians 4:4)
4. Preoccupation with this world (1 John 2:15, Romans 1:25) "

My first post addresses your fourth point of "preoccupation with this world", which as a non-believer, is my main focus. As living bodily (physical) beings, this world should be our main focus, not a pie-in-the-sky afterlife, which we don't have now, nor will we ever have necessarily. If preoccupation with worldly life creates a "block" between us and our supposed personal creator, as you claim then the infraction isn't being committed by the earthly creatures created by this creator but by the creator who created them with their earthly, material nature. Why would a deity create earthly creatures only to "block" them when they preoccupy themselves with their earthly lives?

.... and bringing up other topics that would derail the thread.

You just don't like being challenged. You made certain claims and I'm responding to them from the perspective of the non-believers who you mentioned in your OP.

Sometimes I hear nonbelievers say things like "I would like to believe, but I just don't." So for the sake of those who say that with sincerity, I felt it would be worthwhile to point out that certain things can block people from God. Or another way to put it is, there are certain things that are blinding.

Perhaps the extraordinary (I'm being nice and civil), claims of Christianity which seem to contradict reality and reason, undermine a reasonable person's ability to believe in them. Have you ever considered that?

 

[TruthNotBS]

Funny (1) Reactions:CarlinAnnArbor

What's so funny? Explain.

 

[Blues Man]

Sigh. Where did I say Jesus did?

Except...he's waiting for you at his bar. When will you show up for the seat he is saving for you?

This is where you said he owned a bar.

Sigh.

 

[Blues Man]

I think you're too caught up on the word "sin" rather than the actual idea behind the word. Do you believe murder is wrong? Do you believe adultery is wrong? Do you believe stealing is wrong? Well, those things are sins, but you don't have to use that word if you don't want to. Even if you don't believe in God, you should still be able to understand the point, that doing wrong things is something that separates people from God.




True, and I could've left that under the category of sin, but since it's such a big one (and as the CS Lewis quote said, one that leads to many other evils) I felt it was worth it's own bullet point, lol.




Oh yes there is. I guarantee it. But I don't expect you to believe me, so.... continuing on here....




The word "preoccupation" may not have been the best way of putting it. What I meant was, people who love the things of this world so much that they are focused only on that, and have no time or use for anything else, such as God. In other words, people who are so caught up in the pleasures this temporary world has to offer, or the worldy things like celebrities, entertainment, sports, making money, romantic relationships, etc etc etc.

And I know I keep doing this, but what I just said reminds me of another C.S Lewis quote, that is on what we were just talking about. Here it is:

“It would seem that our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”​

And none of those prohibitions has ever come from a god. Those attitudes have evolved along with society and have done so because some behaviors are detrimental to the long term success of a society.

All these morals you say are orders from a god have been derived by reasoning and humanism.

And no there really is no enemy we make them up because we want to impose our will on them or we think they want to impose their wills on us.

The idea that the world or universe is a a place you have been trust into by some god is flawed. You are not separate from the universe and merely existing in it until some god pulls you out and sticks you in some other place.

 

[ding]

And he doesn't think he's an atheist.

 

[ding]

Sure. The topic is: "Things that block people from God" and you assert:

"

1. Sin (Isaiah 59:2, Colossians 1:21)
2. Pride (Psalm 10:4, James 4:6)
3. The enemy (2 Corinthians 4:4)
4. Preoccupation with this world (1 John 2:15, Romans 1:25) "

My first post addresses your fourth point of "preoccupation with this world", which as a non-believer, is my main focus. As living bodily (physical) beings, this world should be our main focus, not a pie-in-the-sky afterlife, which we don't have now, nor will we ever have necessarily. If preoccupation with worldly life creates a "block" between us and our supposed personal creator, as you claim then the infraction isn't being committed by the earthly creatures created by this creator but by the creator who created them with their earthly, material nature. Why would a deity create earthly creatures only to "block" them when they preoccupy themselves with their earthly lives?



You just don't like being challenged. You made certain claims and I'm responding to them from the perspective of the non-believers who you mentioned in your OP.



Perhaps the extraordinary (I'm being nice and civil), claims of Christianity which seem to contradict reality and reason, undermine a reasonable person's ability to believe in them. Have you ever considered that?

The argument can be simplified to this; worship the creator or worship the created. But you are going to worship something. The only question is what will you choose.

 

[Meriweather]

Best ? That’s a loaded statement. Christianity is quite explicit. It’s not the best version of yourself, it’s being the best version Christianity models for you, Christ.

Not loaded at all. You are a unique person living a unique life. Jesus already did his part. What is your part, and how do you choose to live it--in obedience to God, or disobedient? Obedience is discipline and leads to a stronger, better person.

What is it about Christianity you do not like?

 

[Meriweather]

This is where you said he owned a bar.

Sigh.

I was speaking to someone else. He said if God appeared to him, he'd save him a seat at his bar, which I took to mean the bar he patronizes. I responded that God (no mention of Jesus) might be saving you a seat at his bar (the bar God patronizes). Rightwing and I were taking part in a jovial back and forth picturing drinks with God and Rightwing at one or the other's favorite bar.

Any particular reason to turn a lighthearted exchange between two other people into something snide?

 

[Blues Man]

I was speaking to someone else. He said if God appeared to him, he'd save him a seat at his bar, which I took to mean the bar he patronizes. I responded that God (no mention of Jesus) might be saving you a seat at his bar (the bar God patronizes). Rightwing and I were taking part in a jovial back and forth picturing drinks with God and Rightwing at one or the other's favorite bar.

Any particular reason to turn a lighthearted exchange between two other people into something snide?

Funny I don't know anyone who says meet me at MY bar if they don't actually own it.

 

[MisterBeale]

I call myself "Christian Man" to make fun of wicked Christians like you. You're all a bunch of hypocrites.

You can discuss the issue w/o getting personal, please keep it Zone 1 compliant.

"Zone 1": Clean Debate Zone (CDZ) / Introduce Yourself (Welcome Threads) / The Lounge / Announcements / Race Relations-Racism / Religion and Ethics: Civil discourse is the focus here, regardless of topic matter. No insults, name calling, or putting down other posters (flaming). Consider it a lesson in civics.

Consider this a warning. . .

 

[TruthNotBS]

The argument can be simplified to this; worship the creator or worship the created. But you are going to worship something. The only question is what will you choose.

That's a false dichotomy because I don't worship anyone. However, if I were to worship something, it would be existence itself, and I would highly value whatever contributes to its survival and flourishing.

 

[Blues Man]

And he doesn't think he's an atheist.

I'm not.

I don't know if there are any gods and I don't have the arrogance to try and name any gods and imbue them with a human personality and I'm sure as fuck not arrogant enough to believe I am the very image of a god.

And I'm also able to realize that gods people in the Iron Age believed existed might not actually be the gods that might exist

 

[Meriweather]

My first post addresses your fourth point of "preoccupation with this world", which as a non-believer, is my main focus. As living bodily (physical) beings, this world should be our main focus, not a pie-in-the-sky afterlife, which we don't have now, nor will we ever have necessarily. If preoccupation with worldly life creates a "block" between us and our supposed personal creator, as you claim then the infraction isn't being committed by the earthly creatures created by this creator but by the creator who created them with their earthly, material nature. Why would a deity create earthly creatures only to "block" them when they preoccupy themselves with their earthly lives?

Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Jewish faith teaches that scripture focuses on living this life. The Catholic and Orthodox Christian faith most closely model this philosophy although they definitely bring the afterlife into their faith as well. However, the Jewish roots in both make for at least equal attention (perhaps more) on how scripture works in this life.

Non-Catholic Christian faiths do seem to place the greater focus on the afterlife, and I believe, miss a lot in doing so (if that is what they are doing).

This leads me to the quote you use:

1Jn 2:22-23 Who is the liar but he that denieth that Yehoshua is the Messiah? This is the anti-Messiah, even he that denieth the Father and the Son. (23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.

Jews--at that time--saw God's same work over and over again in scripture. It was a natural way of thinking of God in their midst, that God acted the same way, and generation after generation of the Chosen People kept falling into the same rut as previous generations.

Matthew's Gospel is a prime example of using the past as the foreshadowing of his present time. We see that same technique in 1 John 2:22-23. John is pointing out that Jesus' teachings and life were an overlay of their past history with God. One could not believe on without believing the other.

Modern day Jews argue that there never was an overlay, and that Christians should not be telling them what their own scriptures are saying. I agree Jews today certainly have a point, but Jews of yesteryear also have a point. Jesus' story is not the only Biblical story that is an overlay of another Bible story.

Do Christians who throw 1 John 2:22-23 as some kind of proof or point even know what sections of the Old Testament John is using as an overlay between God and Christ?

 

[Meriweather]

To keep buttercup's excellent thread on tract discussing things that block people from God, worth mentioning is how people who have had God touch their lives, forget the miracle of that touch because life moves on. Sometimes it is worthwhile to jot down these times so they do not fade as time goes on.

In a homily this weekend was a lesson from Exodus. God has told Moses, "I am..." or basically, "I am God." He gives Moses the assignment to go speak to Pharaoh, and Moses responds "I am not..." (a good speaker). The lesson from the homily was to keep in mind six words when we approach God. I am God (who God is); and I am not. Sometimes we need to remember when we are tackling our lives that we are not God. Looking to self/depending on self too much can block us from looking to God. He is God...I am not. A good way to approach Advent and the Christmas season.

 

[Meriweather]

Why should any rational, decent person, believe in your heavenly tyrant that tortures people in hell for all eternity for not converting to Christianity? It's not self-evident to you that your version of Christianity and God demand people to "block out" your obscene version of God? You lack discernment.

I call myself "Christian Man" to make fun of wicked Christians

Why is it that it is only non-believers who think of God as a "heavenly tyrant"?

Ah. So you act wicked so that your own wickedness reflects onto Christians? Admittedly brilliant--and quite funny.