Zone1 Things that block people from God

[Meriweather]

Funny I don't know anyone who says meet me at MY bar if they don't actually own it.

Welcome to a broader view.

 

[Blues Man]

Welcome to a broader view.

Don't confuse a broad view with an incorrect use of possessive pronouns

 

[Meriweather]

Don't confuse a broad view with an incorrect use of possessive pronouns

How about you stopping from telling people what another conversation is "really" about. Keep in mind, in the posts to which you reference, I did not mention Jesus. Stop projecting.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Jewish faith teaches that scripture focuses on living this life. The Catholic and Orthodox Christian faith most closely model this philosophy although they definitely bring the afterlife into their faith as well. However, the Jewish roots in both make for at least equal attention (perhaps more) on how scripture works in this life.

Non-Catholic Christian faiths do seem to place the greater focus on the afterlife, and I believe, miss a lot in doing so (if that is what they are doing).

This leads me to the quote you use:

1Jn 2:22-23 Who is the liar but he that denieth that Yehoshua is the Messiah? This is the anti-Messiah, even he that denieth the Father and the Son. (23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.

Jews--at that time--saw God's same work over and over again in scripture. It was a natural way of thinking of God in their midst, that God acted the same way, and generation after generation of the Chosen People kept falling into the same rut as previous generations.

Matthew's Gospel is a prime example of using the past as the foreshadowing of his present time. We see that same technique in 1 John 2:22-23. John is pointing out that Jesus' teachings and life were an overlay of their past history with God. One could not believe on without believing the other.

Modern day Jews argue that there never was an overlay, and that Christians should not be telling them what their own scriptures are saying. I agree Jews today certainly have a point, but Jews of yesteryear also have a point. Jesus' story is not the only Biblical story that is an overlay of another Bible story.

Do Christians who throw 1 John 2:22-23 as some kind of proof or point even know what sections of the Old Testament John is using as an overlay between God and Christ?

Christianity has its roots in Judaism. The Jewish faith teaches that scripture focuses on living this life.

Christianity is a new wineskin that isn't constrained or defined by Jewish Old Testament beliefs and mores. My objections are directed at Buttercup's claims and what is generally understood as New Testament Christian teaching, with its emphasis on the spirit over the flesh or world.

1. Colossians 3:2 (NIV):"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."
2. Romans 12:2 (NIV):"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is— his good, pleasing, and perfect will."
3. John 15:19 (NIV):"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."
4. 1 John 2:15-17 (NIV):"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever."
5. Matthew 6:19-21 (NIV):"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
6. Philippians 3:20 (NIV):"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ."

Christianity is an otherworldly religion, compared to biblical Judaism, which didn't even have a clear definition of an afterlife.

What is the Roman Catholic position on biological evolution? Does the Catholic Church interpret Genesis 1 and 2 literally? Was there an actual 6 day creation, and a talking snake? I believe Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians are more academic and sophisticated than Protestants. In a way, smarter.

 

[Blues Man]

How about you stopping from telling people what another conversation is "really" about. Keep in mind, in the posts to which you reference, I did not mention Jesus. Stop projecting.

All I did was read what you wrote.

He's waiting for you at his bar

Not at a bar, not at his favorite bar in Toledo not at any other bar but his bar

 

[TruthNotBS]

Why is it that it is only non-believers who think of God as a "heavenly tyrant"?

Ah. So you act wicked so that your own wickedness reflects onto Christians? Admittedly brilliant--and quite funny.

You're not making much sense. Do you believe God abandons his human creation in a state of eternal torment for not converting to Christianity?

 

[Meriweather]

Christianity is an otherworldly religion, compared to biblical Judaism, which didn't even have a clear definition of an afterlife.

This comes to mind: We are not a physical people searching for a spiritual experience, but spirits in search of the physical experience.

We know God's will is already done in heaven. The matter in question is how can we in our physical lives pursue God's will in physical bodies on Earth. There are an entirely different set of problems facing us. Jewish philosophy about the afterlife is that will take care of itself. We're here to take care of the problems we face in this life.

What is the Roman Catholic position on biological evolution? Does the Catholic Church interpret Genesis 1 and 2 literally? Was there an actual 6 day creation, and a talking snake? I believe Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians are more academic and sophisticated than Protestants. In a way, smarter.

The Catholic Church teaches that people can believe what works for them when it comes to a six-day creation and evolution as long as they see God's hand in the Genesis story. Talking snake, donkey's, etc.
I attended Catholic school where we learned (in English class) that literature using talking animals are called fables. Note that fables use an animal that is known for its own traits. If we want to believe the story of the snake represented a sly, poisonous being, great. If we want to picture an actual snake, not a problem. What matters is whether we understand the lesson in the story. Don't let the animals become a distraction from the lesson.

 

[Meriweather]

You're not making much sense. Do you believe God abandons his human creation in a state of eternal torment for not converting to Christianity?

No. Remember Catholics/Orthodox believe that those of a different beliefs (or no belief) are in the hands of a loving and merciful God.

Instead of focusing on what others are doing "wrong" our focus should be on following in Christ's steps and living as he taught. Our purpose is not to dwell on what people "over there" are doing and judge them. Our focus should remain on Christ and our own progress in living ways that are eternal.

 

[buttercup]

And none of those prohibitions has ever come from a god. Those attitudes have evolved along with society and have done so because some behaviors are detrimental to the long term success of a society.

All these morals you say are orders from a god have been derived by reasoning and humanism.

People have different ideas on what is or isn't "detrimental." Some societies might think killing the sick, elderly or mentally impaired is beneficial to society. So are they right just because they think so?

We've had this conversation before. The bottom line is moral relativism / subjectivism is flatly false and filled with logical problems.

But all of this is besides the point, and a topic for a thread of its own.

And no there really is no enemy we make them up because we want to impose our will on them or we think they want to impose their wills on us.

Of course you believe that, as a nonbeliever. You can believe what you want, but I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are so wrong. But again, I don't expect you to believe this, because if you did believe there was a spiritual 'dark side', you'd also believe in God.

The idea that the world or universe is a a place you have been trust into by some god is flawed. You are not separate from the universe and merely existing in it until some god pulls you out and sticks you in some other place.

Where did you get that from what was posted? I didn't say that we were separate from the universe. #4 is just about people being so focused on temporary and ultimately pointless things, that they don't look to things that are more meaningful and important.

 

[buttercup]

The argument can be simplified to this; worship the creator or worship the created. But you are going to worship something. The only question is what will you choose.

Yep, pretty much.

I don't know if this is a good analogy, but it's kind of like if someone gave you a beautiful gift.... and you were so focused on the gift, that you thank and praise the gift itself, while turning your back and walking away from the one who gave it.

 

[buttercup]

Not loaded at all. You are a unique person living a unique life. Jesus already did his part. What is your part, and how do you choose to live it--in obedience to God, or disobedient? Obedience is discipline and leads to a stronger, better person.

What is it about Christianity you do not like?

SO true. This is something I had to learn, the hard way. In my BC (before Christ) days I did my own thing, of course. But even after becoming a Christian, for the first 3 or 4 years I still hadn't learned certain important lessons. I finally learned, the hard way, that obedience to God is the wisest and BEST way and that I was only shooting myself in the foot beforehand.

That's something that I think nonbelievers don't get. Living God's way is SOOOO much better and more beneficial, and it brings blessings. Living the opposite way brings the opposite of blessings, it brings pain, heartache, and unhealthy damaging situations.

ding actually reminded me of a verse earlier, and it's coming to my mind again, so I'll post it... (part of it)

"...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." Joshua 24:15​

Thanks for bringing that up, Merriweather.

 

[buttercup]

I'm not.

I don't know if there are any gods and I don't have the arrogance to try and name any gods and imbue them with a human personality and I'm sure as fuck not arrogant enough to believe I am the very image of a god.

And I'm also able to realize that gods people in the Iron Age believed existed might not actually be the gods that might exist

I don't want to get too sidetracked, but you brought up something I want to say something about. You brought up being "made in God's image."

I think most Christians think of being made in God's image as meaning that we are beings with a mind / intellect and the ability to reason and make moral choices.

I think that's part of it, but my view on the meaning of being made in God's image is different than the standard view. I think it has to do with our God-given dominion over the rest of creation. Why, because when you read the verse in Genesis 1 about being made in God's image, it is in the very same sentence about us having dominion over the animals and the earth. BUT (and I hope you would agree with this) I believe that humanity has for the most part done the exact opposite of what God wanted us to do. He wanted us to take care of the animals in HIS image and likeness, which means with LOVE, mercy, kindness, selflessness and a genuine care and concern for their life and well-being, like God's dominion over us. And what have we done? The opposite, we've exploited the hell out of animals, used them for our own selfish reasons, with little to no regard for their life and their desire to live and enjoy life.... our dominion over creation has NOT been in God's image, if anything it has been in the image of the lowercase "god" of this world, the enemy of God. Since you're also a vegan, I'm hoping you can see what I'm saying, even if you don't believe in God.

So with that context in mind, humans being "created in God's image" means we have the unique role of being managers over the rest of creation, but not in our own own image, but in GOD's...so it's more like being a steward, or viceroy, rather than us being the highest King with no one above us.

Ok, / off topic commentary

 

[buttercup]

To keep buttercup's excellent thread on tract discussing things that block people from God, worth mentioning is how people who have had God touch their lives, forget the miracle of that touch because life moves on. Sometimes it is worthwhile to jot down these times so they do not fade as time goes on.

In a homily this weekend was a lesson from Exodus. God has told Moses, "I am..." or basically, "I am God." He gives Moses the assignment to go speak to Pharaoh, and Moses responds "I am not..." (a good speaker). The lesson from the homily was to keep in mind six words when we approach God. I am God (who God is); and I am not. Sometimes we need to remember when we are tackling our lives that we are not God. Looking to self/depending on self too much can block us from looking to God. He is God...I am not. A good way to approach Advent and the Christmas season.

Thanks. I agree with the basic point of that lesson from the homily, and your takeaway from it.

This short clip from the movie Rudy sums it up. Very memorable line. (watch til the end)

 

[buttercup]

Christianity is a new wineskin that isn't constrained or defined by Jewish Old Testament beliefs and mores. My objections are directed at Buttercup's claims and what is generally understood as New Testament Christian teaching, with its emphasis on the spirit over the flesh or world.

1. Colossians 3:2 (NIV):"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."
2. Romans 12:2 (NIV):"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is— his good, pleasing, and perfect will."
3. John 15:19 (NIV):"If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."
4. 1 John 2:15-17 (NIV):"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever."
5. Matthew 6:19-21 (NIV):"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
6. Philippians 3:20 (NIV):"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ."

Christianity is an otherworldly religion, compared to biblical Judaism, which didn't even have a clear definition of an afterlife.

What is the Roman Catholic position on biological evolution? Does the Catholic Church interpret Genesis 1 and 2 literally? Was there an actual 6 day creation, and a talking snake? I believe Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians are more academic and sophisticated than Protestants. In a way, smarter.

Yes, we are supposed to have an eternal perspective. If you don't believe there is an afterlife then of course you're not going to see the value or point of that.

But where you are misunderstanding is your idea that Christianity teaches that this life doesn't matter, or that we should not pay any attention to this life. That's not what those verses are saying. When it says "do not love the world or the things of this world" it doesn't mean the good things that are from God.... "the world" in this context means the humanistic system that is at odds with God, or temporary things that people can get too immersed in. I talked about this in another post to someone else. For example, being addicted to things like TV, celebrities, drugs, material things, etc. Things that can be a trap and can be a barrier to God and more important matters. Those verses do NOT mean that this life doesn't matter, or that Christianity is only about being focused on heaven. While we SHOULD have an eternal perspective, that doesn't mean ignoring the here and now. I could post a ton of scriptures that back that up, if you want.

 

[onefour1]

Thanks, again. You bring up a good point, about personal knowledge and experience, which I think is necessary for anyone to believe and have faith in God. And I don't remember if it was you or someone else who posted the verse "knock and the door will be opened to you".....but an actual encounter or experience is what causes all sorts of people from all different religious backgrounds to come to that life-changing radical change of mind/heart, and come to faith in Jesus. I brought up earlier that no one truly comes to God unless God draws that person in (John 6:44) and that is something that I don't think will happen, if one has that stubborn, prideful, rebellious hateful closedminded attitude. But hey, maybe even with those types, it is still possible, but I think far more unlikely.

You are absolutely right. God requires that we open our hearts and seek after him. He is always willing to reveal Himself unto us but we too must be willing and ready to receive Him. We are His children and He only wants the best for us.

 

[ding]

That's a false dichotomy because I don't worship anyone. However, if I were to worship something, it would be existence itself, and I would highly value whatever contributes to its survival and flourishing.

You can tell by what people worship by what they do and what they hide from others. What controls their behaviors. Trust me, you worship something. It's the compulsive behaviors of humans. So no false dichotomy at all. Just simple plain old observations. I'm not the first one to make this observation.

 

[ding]

I'm not.

I don't know if there are any gods and I don't have the arrogance to try and name any gods and imbue them with a human personality and I'm sure as fuck not arrogant enough to believe I am the very image of a god.

And I'm also able to realize that gods people in the Iron Age believed existed might not actually be the gods that might exist

If you walk like an atheist and talk like an atheist, there's a good chance you are an atheist. And since I only seeing you argue against the existence of God and never anything else... your actions speak louder than your words.

 

[TruthNotBS]

You can tell by what people worship by what they do and what they hide from others. What controls their behaviors. Trust me, you worship something. It's the compulsive behaviors of humans. So no false dichotomy at all. Just simple plain old observations. I'm not the first one to make this observation.

How is compulsive behavior compared to "worship"? Compulsion, is "worship"? Christians don't have any compulsions other than Jesus? I doubt it. They like everyone, have their habits or compulsions, hence Christians worship more than just Jesus or God, following your personal, arbitrary definition of compulsion equating worship.

 

[ding]

Yep, pretty much.

I don't know if this is a good analogy, but it's kind of like if someone gave you a beautiful gift.... and you were so focused on the gift, that you thank and praise the gift itself, while turning your back and walking away from the one who gave it.

It's not a bad analogy at all.

 

[TruthNotBS]

Yes, we are supposed to have an eternal perspective. If you don't believe there is an afterlife then of course you're not going to see the value or point of that.

But where you are misunderstanding is your idea that Christianity teaches that this life doesn't matter, or that we should not pay any attention to this life. That's not what those verses are saying. When it says "do not love the world or the things of this world" it doesn't mean the good things that are from God.... "the world" in this context means the humanistic system that is at odds with God, or temporary things that people can get too immersed in. I talked about this in another post to someone else. For example, being addicted to things like TV, celebrities, drugs, material things, etc. Things that can be a trap and can be a barrier to God and more important matters. Those verses do NOT mean that this life doesn't matter, or that Christianity is only about being focused on heaven. While we SHOULD have an eternal perspective, that doesn't mean ignoring the here and now. I could post a ton of scriptures that back that up, if you want.

But where you are misunderstanding is your idea that Christianity teaches that this life doesn't matter, or that we should not pay any attention to this life.

It distracts people from the life they should be focused on. This one., the only life they have now and may ever have.

That's not what those verses are saying. When it says "do not love the world or the things of this world" it doesn't mean the good things that are from God.... "the world" in this context means the humanistic system that is at odds with God, or temporary things that people can get too immersed in.

Why would a humanistic system be at odds with God? What "temporary" things are you referring to?

1 John 2:15-16 (KJV): "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

What constitutes that which Christians are not to love are the "...things that are in the world". It states "For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life". The desires of the flesh are natural and so are the desires or "lust" of the eyes. The pride of life supposedly is evil. According to this text, All that is in the world, which includes the lust of the flesh..etc, is to be rejected.

I talked about this in another post to someone else. For example, being addicted to things like TV, celebrities, drugs, material things, etc. Things that can be a trap and can be a barrier to God and more important matters. Those verses do NOT mean that this life doesn't matter, or that Christianity is only about being focused on heaven. While we SHOULD have an eternal perspective, that doesn't mean ignoring the here and now. I could post a ton of scriptures that back that up, if you want.

According to the NT the whole world is under the spell of Satan and it's essentially evil:

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV): "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

The god of this whole world is Satan, according to the above text, hence practically everyone and everything is Satanic until it converts to Christianity. This doesn't contribute to creating a society that cherishes the world and is trying to improve it. Why invest in a sinking, Satanic ship? That's the problem.