Third Intifada Simmering in Jerusalem: Who's to Blame?

[Hollie]

Israel controls Gazan sea and air, controls borders, makes regular incursions into Gaza...

Sounds like occupation to me!

Only because you are not listening to the law. Air and naval blockades do not constitute an occupation. And EVERY country controls its borders.

It is you that is not "listening to the law". The ICJ (International Court of Justice) has already determined that Gaza continues to be occupied. It is settled law. No sense beating a dead horse, sport.

ICJ determination:

"26. The Occupied Palestinian Territory is comprised of the West Bank, including East-Jerusalem and the Gaza strip. The Government of Israel adopts the position that since it withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005 during the “disengagement,” it no longer has effective control over what happens in Gaza and thus can no longer be considered as an occupying power under international law. The commission agrees that the exercise of ‘effective control’ test is the correct standard to use in determining whether a State is the occupying power over a given territory, but notes that the continuous presence of soldiers on the ground is only one criterion to be used in determining effective control.

27. International law does not require the continuous presence of troops of the occupying forces in all areas of a territory, in order for it to be considered as being occupied. In the Naletelic case, the ICTY held that the law of occupation also applies in areas where a state possesses the “capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make its power felt.” The size of Gaza and the fact that it is almost completely surrounded by Israel facilitates the ability for Israel to make its presence felt. This principle was confirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nuremberg which stated: "It is clear that the German Armed Forces were able to maintain control of Greece and Yugoslavia until they evacuated them in the fall of 1944. While it is true that the partisans were able to control sections of these countries at various times, it is established that the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part of the country. The control of the resistance forces was temporary only and not such as would deprive the German Armed Forces of its status of an occupant."

And, as we know, your silly "settled law" meme is false.

The ICJ has limited authority and does little more than offer opinions, typically in regard to "sovereign nations". Have you somehow missed the part where neither Gaza'istan nor the Islamic terrorist enclave of Abbas'istan are "sovereign nations"?


Frequently Asked Questions | International Court of Justice

The Court can only hear a dispute when requested to do so by one or more States. It cannot deal with a dispute of its own motion. It is not permitted, under its Statute, to investigate and rule on acts of sovereign States as it chooses.

The States concerned must also have access to the Court and have accepted its jurisdiction, in other words they must consent to the Court"s considering the dispute in question. This is a fundamental principle governing the settlement of international disputes, States being sovereign and free to choose the methods of resolving their disputes.

 

[USAF 2023]

No; You Stupid Fuck. The Arabs INITIATED the 67 War and Israel isn't going to give in to ALL Demands. That puts the blame on the Palestinians !!

The '67 war started when Israel rolled their tanks into Egypt. Stop being such a pussy! Embrace the horror. As far as demands go, there ain't any. Israel needs to end the occupation and obey international law. That is its only option. Israel either does that voluntarily, or it will eventually be forced to.

And as far as who's to blame for a 3rd intifada, of coarse its Israel. You can't treat an entire population like garbage for a half century and not have a major uprising. Israel has no right denying the Palestinian's their civil rights. That's what is causing all the violence.

Another lie !!! The War started when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran knowing what was going to happen and their troops began forming at Israels borders with Nasser promising to destroy Israel , Israel going to the UN and of course nothing was done. The War started when Syria continued shooting at Israelis from the Golan Heights. What was Jordan's excuse . What gives the Palestinuans the right under " International Law" to demand some of the 67 Land ?? ( Between Gaza and the W. Bank) It didn't exist before. Just more proof that " International Law" is a Joke. While you're at it, educate ISIS about " International Law". Lol

 

[aris2chat]

No; You Stupid Fuck. The Arabs INITIATED the 67 War and Israel isn't going to give in to ALL Demands. That puts the blame on the Palestinians !!

The '67 war started when Israel rolled their tanks into Egypt. Stop being such a pussy! Embrace the horror. As far as demands go, there ain't any. Israel needs to end the occupation and obey international law. That is its only option. Israel either does that voluntarily, or it will eventually be forced to.

And as far as who's to blame for a 3rd intifada, of coarse its Israel. You can't treat an entire population like garbage for a half century and not have a major uprising. Israel has no right denying the Palestinian's their civil rights. That's what is causing all the violence.

Another lie !!! The War started when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran knowing what was going to happen and their troops began forming at Israels borders with Nasser promising to destroy Israel , Israel going to the UN and of course nothing was done. The War started when Syria continued shooting at Israelis from the Golan Heights. What was Jordan's excuse . What gives the Palestinuans the right under " International Law" to demand some of the 67 Land ?? ( Between Gaza and the W. Bank) It didn't exist before. Just more proof that " International Law" is a Joke. While you're at it, educate ISIS about " International Law". Lol

Egypt declared war when they kicked the monitors out and closed the straits to Israel. Israel happened to have a copy of the attack orders and plans so they knew what was coming and when.

 

[Humanity]

For those who feel that there is no "occupation" I urge you to watch this video...

Clear, concise and factual....

Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

 

[Shusha]

For those who feel that there is no "occupation" I urge you to watch this video...

Clear, concise and factual....

Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

The video adds nothing at all to the conversation. It begins with a fallacious argumentum ad populum and then proceeds to describe a blockade as an occupation, a differentiation which I have already made, using examples, in my previous post.

So it seems we all agree that Israel controls Gaza's airspace and seas. And we agree that Israel controls its own borders (a trait shared by every other country in the world). The question is whether or not the control over these things constitutes "occupation". It seems that if it involves Israel it does. But when it involves other nations and other blockades it does not. The inconsistency is revealing.

If you want to address this inconsistency, please do so. If you want to add to the argument please do so.

 

[Humanity]

For those who feel that there is no "occupation" I urge you to watch this video...

Clear, concise and factual....

Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

The video adds nothing at all to the conversation. It begins with a fallacious argumentum ad populum and then proceeds to describe a blockade as an occupation, a differentiation which I have already made, using examples, in my previous post.

So it seems we all agree that Israel controls Gaza's airspace and seas. And we agree that Israel controls its own borders (a trait shared by every other country in the world). The question is whether or not the control over these things constitutes "occupation". It seems that if it involves Israel it does. But when it involves other nations and other blockades it does not. The inconsistency is revealing.

If you want to address this inconsistency, please do so. If you want to add to the argument please do so.

The video highlights what you seem to be missing...

Only Israel believes that they DON'T occupy Gaza... Oh and you of course!

I prefer to look at the facts of the occupation and not at the dictionary description of the word "occupation"!

 

[montelatici]

For those who feel that there is no "occupation" I urge you to watch this video...

Clear, concise and factual....

Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

The video adds nothing at all to the conversation. It begins with a fallacious argumentum ad populum and then proceeds to describe a blockade as an occupation, a differentiation which I have already made, using examples, in my previous post.

So it seems we all agree that Israel controls Gaza's airspace and seas. And we agree that Israel controls its own borders (a trait shared by every other country in the world). The question is whether or not the control over these things constitutes "occupation". It seems that if it involves Israel it does. But when it involves other nations and other blockades it does not. The inconsistency is revealing.

If you want to address this inconsistency, please do so. If you want to add to the argument please do so.

The ICJ has already determined this issue. Gaza is occupied.

"26. The Occupied Palestinian Territory is comprised of the West Bank, including East-Jerusalem and the Gaza strip. The Government of Israel adopts the position that since it withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005 during the “disengagement,” it no longer has effective control over what happens in Gaza and thus can no longer be considered as an occupying power under international law. The commission agrees that the exercise of ‘effective control’ test is the correct standard to use in determining whether a State is the occupying power over a given territory, but notes that the continuous presence of soldiers on the ground is only one criterion to be used in determining effective control.

27. International law does not require the continuous presence of troops of the occupying forces in all areas of a territory, in order for it to be considered as being occupied. In the Naletelic case, the ICTY held that the law of occupation also applies in areas where a state possesses the “capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make its power felt.” The size of Gaza and the fact that it is almost completely surrounded by Israel facilitates the ability for Israel to make its presence felt. This principle was confirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nuremberg which stated: "It is clear that the German Armed Forces were able to maintain control of Greece and Yugoslavia until they evacuated them in the fall of 1944. While it is true that the partisans were able to control sections of these countries at various times, it is established that the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part of the country. The control of the resistance forces was temporary only and not such as would deprive the German Armed Forces of its status of an occupant."

 

[aris2chat]

For those who feel that there is no "occupation" I urge you to watch this video...

Clear, concise and factual....

Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

Jews can't just go visiting in gaza. No reason for "free" access to Israel. Hamas brought that problem on themselves when they went to war with Fatah and the WB. As for supplies, they have to pay for many of them, even paying the PA for their fuel, which they refuse to do quite often.
Supplies go in and out of gaza, just certain items are banned. Fishing area has doubled in size.
Hamas has the power to end this at any time, but they won't even speak to Israel or recognized it. Many countries have tight control of border control and requiring special visas to come and go. When not lobbing rockets at Israel, gazans can enter for many reason, but Israel will not allow them to flood into and wage war on Israel. When Israel is attacked they have a right to respond. The blockade is legal.

Egypt does not give gazans free access to the sinai. They only open the Rafah crossing a few days a year. Hamas brought that on themselves as well.

Israel pulled all Israelis out of gaza. It does not occupy that part of the land.

As long a hamas is calling for attacks and war on Israel, restrictions will remain. Blame hamas

 

[montelatici]

Egypt blocks the border at the behest of Israel and the U.S. in order to keep receiving U.S. aid. After the first and only democratic elections in Egypt, the border was opened. After the military coup, supported by the U.S., the border was closed.

 

[Shusha]

144. The Court notes that under international law (in particular Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations) a territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of a hostile army, “actual authority” being widely considered as translating to effective control and requiring such elements as presence of foreign troops, which are in a position to exercise effective control without the consent of the sovereign (see paragraph 94 above). On the basis of all the material before it and having regard to the above establishment of facts, the Court finds that <snip> is not occupied by or under the effective control of foreign forces as this would require a presence of foreign troops in <snip>.

This discusses the application of law to a different national entity. Why is international law different when discussing Israel?

 

[Humanity]

For those who feel that there is no "occupation" I urge you to watch this video...

Clear, concise and factual....

Reality Check: Gaza is still occupied

Jews can't just go visiting in gaza. No reason for "free" access to Israel. Hamas brought that problem on themselves when they went to war with Fatah and the WB. As for supplies, they have to pay for many of them, even paying the PA for their fuel, which they refuse to do quite often.
Supplies go in and out of gaza, just certain items are banned. Fishing area has doubled in size.
Hamas has the power to end this at any time, but they won't even speak to Israel or recognized it. Many countries have tight control of border control and requiring special visas to come and go. When not lobbing rockets at Israel, gazans can enter for many reason, but Israel will not allow them to flood into and wage war on Israel. When Israel is attacked they have a right to respond. The blockade is legal.

Egypt does not give gazans free access to the sinai. They only open the Rafah crossing a few days a year. Hamas brought that on themselves as well.

Israel pulled all Israelis out of gaza. It does not occupy that part of the land.

As long a hamas is calling for attacks and war on Israel, restrictions will remain. Blame hamas

Let me ask you a question....

When was it that the occupied and oppressed had "the power to end" the occupation and oppression?

Seems that is the wrong way round....

Israel should end its occupation and oppression of Gaza pure and simple...

Only the one IN power has the power to make that decision....

Then let's see if the potential Intifada starts!

 

[Shusha]

Israel should end its occupation and oppression of Gaza pure and simple...

What would Israel have to do so that you would consider the occupation of Gaza ended?

 

[montelatici]

Israel should end its occupation and oppression of Gaza pure and simple...

What would Israel have to do so that you would consider the occupation of Gaza ended?

It would be the ICJ that would have to be convinced. The decision provides some hints.

"26. The Occupied Palestinian Territory is comprised of the West Bank, including East-Jerusalem and the Gaza strip. The Government of Israel adopts the position that since it withdrew its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005 during the “disengagement,” it no longer has effective control over what happens in Gaza and thus can no longer be considered as an occupying power under international law. The commission agrees that the exercise of ‘effective control’ test is the correct standard to use in determining whether a State is the occupying power over a given territory, but notes that the continuous presence of soldiers on the ground is only one criterion to be used in determining effective control.

27. International law does not require the continuous presence of troops of the occupying forces in all areas of a territory, in order for it to be considered as being occupied. In the Naletelic case, the ICTY held that the law of occupation also applies in areas where a state possesses the “capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make its power felt.” The size of Gaza and the fact that it is almost completely surrounded by Israel facilitates the ability for Israel to make its presence felt. This principle was confirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nuremberg which stated: "It is clear that the German Armed Forces were able to maintain control of Greece and Yugoslavia until they evacuated them in the fall of 1944. While it is true that the partisans were able to control sections of these countries at various times, it is established that the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part of the country. The control of the resistance forces was temporary only and not such as would deprive the German Armed Forces of its status of an occupant."

 

[Shusha]

27. International law does not require the continuous presence of troops of the occupying forces in all areas of a territory, in order for it to be considered as being occupied. In the Naletelic case, the ICTY held that the law of occupation also applies in areas where a state possesses the “capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make its power felt.” The size of Gaza and the fact that it is almost completely surrounded by Israel facilitates the ability for Israel to make its presence felt. This principle was confirmed by the United States Military Tribunal at Nuremberg which stated: "It is clear that the German Armed Forces were able to maintain control of Greece and Yugoslavia until they evacuated them in the fall of 1944. While it is true that the partisans were able to control sections of these countries at various times, it is established that the Germans could at any time they desired assume physical control of any part of the country. The control of the resistance forces was temporary only and not such as would deprive the German Armed Forces of its status of an occupant."

Since Israel can neither change the size of Gaza nor its relative proximity to Gaza, you are suggesting that the way to end the occupation is for Israel to not have the capacity to send troops within a reasonable time. Jeez, using that model the US occupies Canada. Sheesh.

 

[montelatici]

Perhaps not collecting Gaza taxes would be a start. It's not just the capacity to send troops, it is the fact that the Israelis do enter Gaza and wreak havoc on a regular basis.

 

[Billo_Really]

Another lie !!! The War started when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran knowing what was going to happen and their troops began forming at Israels borders with Nasser promising to destroy Israel , Israel going to the UN and of course nothing was done. The War started when Syria continued shooting at Israelis from the Golan Heights. What was Jordan's excuse . What gives the Palestinuans the right under " International Law" to demand some of the 67 Land ?? ( Between Gaza and the W. Bank) It didn't exist before. Just more proof that " International Law" is a Joke. While you're at it, educate ISIS about " International Law". Lol

Listen fuckhead, the Straits of Tiran is not Israeli property and Israel has no authority to act unilaterally from the UN on an international issue. The Syrian's were shooting at Israel, because Israel was trying bulldoze its way to Syrian water. And not a single country on the planet recognizes Israel's right to that land.

Get it through your fucking head, the world wouldn't let Hitler keep Poland and it's not going to let Israel keep the OPT. Any of it. Now shove that up your ass for future reference.

 

[Billo_Really]

Egypt declared war when they kicked the monitors out and closed the straits to Israel. Israel happened to have a copy of the attack orders and plans so they knew what was coming and when.

Egypt can do whatever the fuck it wants to on its own property. Why can't you fuckers get that through your fucking, narcissistic heads? It's none of Israel's god-damn business what other country's do within their own sovereign borders. So fuck off! You don't tell others how to live their lives.

Nothing changes the fact that Israel fired the first shot.

 

[Hollie]

Egypt blocks the border at the behest of Israel and the U.S. in order to keep receiving U.S. aid. After the first and only democratic elections in Egypt, the border was opened. After the military coup, supported by the U.S., the border was closed.

Your silly conspiracy theories are a hoot.

 

[Kondor3]

Another lie !!! The War started when Egypt blocked the Straits of Tiran knowing what was going to happen and their troops began forming at Israels borders with Nasser promising to destroy Israel , Israel going to the UN and of course nothing was done. The War started when Syria continued shooting at Israelis from the Golan Heights. What was Jordan's excuse . What gives the Palestinuans the right under " International Law" to demand some of the 67 Land ?? ( Between Gaza and the W. Bank) It didn't exist before. Just more proof that " International Law" is a Joke. While you're at it, educate ISIS about " International Law". Lol

Listen fuckhead, the Straits of Tiran is not Israeli property and Israel has no authority to act unilaterally from the UN on an international issue. The Syrian's were shooting at Israel, because Israel was trying bulldoze its way to Syrian water. And not a single country on the planet recognizes Israel's right to that land.

Get it through your fucking head, the world wouldn't let Hitler keep Poland and it's not going to let Israel keep the OPT. Any of it. Now shove that up your ass for future reference.

This does not advance the discussion of a Third Intifada, however, in connection with your silly sidebar...

"The World" isn't going to let Israel keep the OPT?

Yeah... right... wake us up when "The World" makes its move...

I needed a good laugh tonight... funny, funny stuff... thanks !

 

[jillian]

On 12 June 2014 three Israeli teens were kidnapped in Gush Etzion on the occupied West Bank of Palestine; within minutes one teen called a police emergency hotline to report his abduction.

The recording of the call was placed under a gag order, and within days Israeli investigators knew the rough vicinity of where the three bodies were buried.

The IDF launched Operation Brother's Keeper and over the next 11 days 350 Hamas members were arrested and five Palestinians were killed.

Operation Protective Edge came next:

"On 8 July 2014, Israel launchedOperation Protective Edge(Hebrew: מִבְצָע צוּק אֵיתָן, Miv'tza Tzuk Eitan, lit. 'Operation Strong Cliff')[note 1] in the Hamas-ruledGaza Strip. Thereafter, seven weeks of Israeli bombardment, Palestinian rocket attacks, and ground fightingkilled more than 2,200 people, the vast majority of them Gazans.[21][26][34][35]"

Part of Israel's reaction to the murders of its three teens was to announce more settlement expansion in East Jerusalem, and that is where Intifada 3.0 is likely to come from:

"Palestinian residents in East Jerusalem continue to suffer from police violence and increased security, including checkpoints, as tensions have escalated over settler expansion in the neighborhood of Silwan and Israel continues to impose restricted access for Muslims to the religious sites on the Temple Mount.

"Last week, a Palestinian man drove his car into passengers getting off the light rail in East Jerusalem, killing a baby Israeli girl and a 22-year-old tourist from Ecuador. Days later, a 14-year-old Palestinian, who was a dual citizen in the United States, was shot dead by the IDF forces, who claimed the boy was about to toss a firebomb. The U.S. Department [of State] has called for an investigation.

"Meanwhile, plans continue to move forward for the construction of about 1,000 new housing units in Jewish neighborhoods located in occupied East Jerusalem. And Defensive Minister Moshe Ya'alon also has issued a directive banning Palestinians from riding Israeli-run buses in the West Bank. Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem is describing the directive as a, quote, 'thinly veiled pandering to the demand for racial segregation on buses.'"

A Third Intifada on the Horizon

The mass killing in Palestine has temporarily disappeared from the front pages and nightly news leads, but the goal of Israel hasn't changed: all the land between the River and the sea ruled by Jews, for Jews with no more than 20% of the population being non-Jews.

so there shouldn't be a jewish state and every state in the middle east should be muslim?

the terrorists lost. as soon as they accept that and make a deal they can move on.

as for jerusalem .... jerusalem isn't mentioned even once in the qu'ran.