This is how we end it! (solution)

[Shusha]

See, Humanity ? That only took ten minutes.

 

[Humanity]

There can never be peace without mutual recognition and acceptance.

Can you clarify this please?

You have been making this point in a few threads recently and I would like to understand what you mean exactly by "mutual recognition and acceptance".

Cessation of all claims which reject Jewish history, Jewish rights and Jewish presence.
Cessation of all requirements for dissolution of the Jewish State/Israel.
Removing all references to Arab-only or Palestinian-only land in the territory in charters and documents.
Revision of all UNESCO documents to re-claim Jewish/Israeli historical sites as Jewish/Israeli historical sites.
Formal recognition of Israel.

Stuff like that.

So, "mutual" as in as long as it is 'mutually' Israel.

No. Of course it has to be mutual. But there is no equivalence to the Arab rejection of Israel on the other side. Have you read abi's posts?

There has to be an end to claims of stealing land, invasion from other continents, real and synthetic Jews, denial of history, Arab waqfs, kill the Jews, the ridiculous Khazar story, and all the other rejections.

The Arab narrative has to accept that the Jewish people have every right to be there, that the Jewish people have a long history there and that it is their homeland, that they had pre-existing holy places where Muslim holy shrines stand now, that the land belongs to the Jewish collective as much as to the Arabs, hat Jerusalem is the Jewish capital and has been for thousands of years, that Jewish people are welcome to live anywhere they want in the territory the same way Arabs are and that the Jewish people must have self-determination, safety and security.

Yes. Of course you are going to argue that Israel must accept Arab Palestinian rights as well. And you are correct. BUT Israel does that already and has for a hundred years. The resistance Israel has to a State of Palestine does not rest on a fundamental rejection of self-determination no matter what. It rests only on the lack of preparedness and on the continuing hostilities.

Just watch this thread. You will see Team P continuing to reject the basis of a Jewish State. While Team I only argues for ensuring Israel's security. We've seen it over and over.

Yes I have scanned over Abi's posts. That's pretty much all they deserve, though to be fair, Abi's stance is one of 'No Israel' which, though you know I disagree with 100%, there are many who feel the same way as Abi.

I'm not sure that you CAN insist on SOME claims as, I'm sorry to say, some are genuine claims, some are speculative claims, some are just bloody ridiculous!

I'm not going to get into the Jerusalem 'issue' here except to say that the history of Jerusalem is pretty varied and, over the centuries, has had many 'masters'. To have ONE make the claim over another is bordering on ridiculous.

Oh, as we see with MOST threads here, it will be Team P screaming for the end of Israel, Team I screaming history... It all get's very, very boring to say the least.

Team P accepts, unilaterally, the existence of Israel.
Team I accepts that there are others who wish have Jerusalem as their capital.
Team S(anity) says, it ain't gonna happen!

 

[Humanity]

See, Humanity ? That only took ten minutes.

That did make me chuckle!

 

[abi]

Yes I have scanned over Abi's posts. That's pretty much all they deserve, though to be fair, Abi's stance is one of 'No Israel' which, though you know I disagree with 100%, there are many who feel the same way as Abi.

I don't know why you let her get to you, but I never said 'no Israel.' So, that is just crap.

I'm not sure that you CAN insist on SOME claims as, I'm sorry to say, some are genuine claims, some are speculative claims, some are just bloody ridiculous!

Are these my claims you refer to? If so, which are speculative and which are bloody ridiculous. I am honestly willing to learn. That is why I am here and respect your posts.

I'm not going to get into the Jerusalem 'issue' here except to say that the history of Jerusalem is pretty varied and, over the centuries, has had many 'masters'. To have ONE make the claim over another is bordering on ridiculous.

I want to see her on this question if nothing else. I have tried to get her to answer this many times in many ways and nothing.

 

[Shusha]

Yes I have scanned over Abi's posts. That's pretty much all they deserve, though to be fair, Abi's stance is one of 'No Israel' which, though you know I disagree with 100%, there are many who feel the same way as Abi.

Yep.

I'm not sure that you CAN insist on SOME claims as, I'm sorry to say, some are genuine claims, some are speculative claims, some are just bloody ridiculous!

Please clarify which are which.

I'm not going to get into the Jerusalem 'issue' here except to say that the history of Jerusalem is pretty varied and, over the centuries, has had many 'masters'. To have ONE make the claim over another is bordering on ridiculous.

I'm not making one claim over another. I'm insisting that Arabs recognize its history and significance to Jews and then address that. Whatever the solution looks like, if the foundation narrative is, "the Temple Mount is holy to Jews and we must honor that", it will probably work out okay.

 

[abi]

See, Humanity ? That only took ten minutes.

That did make me chuckle!

I'm chuckiling too, threesome lol.

But, Humanity, please enlighten me. What was speculation and what was ridiculous.

 

[Shusha]

I don't know why you let her get to you, but I never said 'no Israel.' So, that is just crap.

No, you have pointedly ignored the question repeatedly. So, abi, here it is again:

Israel or no Israel?

 

[abi]

if the foundation narrative is, "the Temple Mount is holy to Jews and we must honor that", it will probably work out okay.

And if the foundation is based on a false premise, then why not abandon it for the sake of Peace?

 

[abi]

Israel or no Israel?

Defined as a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC?

 

[Coyote]

As long as Israel needs to maintain a presence in the occupied territories as a requirement to to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety,

Killing people, stealing land, and demolishing homes is restoring and ensuring public order and safety?

Rocco, you are a hoot.

I agree, the policy of destroying the homes of terrorists famies is way wrong. I have yet to a Jewish terrorists home destroyed and his famimy left homeless.

 

[Coyote]

How many peace treaties have the Palestinian terrorists broken now? Every single one.

Israel isn’t going to fall for it anymore.

Gaza was the end of appeasement. THAT was the end point of giving land to folks who were not READY to govern and value the peace, well being and prosperity of their people..

Gaza wasnt appeasement. It was a calculated political strategy. Gaza was costing Israel hugely both monetarily and politically. They finally decided it wasnt worth it to protect a handful of Jews.

 

[rylah]

See, Humanity ? That only took ten minutes.

That did make me chuckle!

Humanity let me just say that Your attitude seems to be one of the most centered , close to neutrality.
Although I may disagree on much of what You say, I see in Your posts an attempt to comprehend the situation from 2 sides to reach Your own conclusion.

Q.Can You define "Peace", as You see it from both sides?
Q.What is the common "middle ground" in Your view?

 

[rylah]

Can anyone define "P-e-a-c-e"?

People, really I'm not cynical here.
It can help us together, because we're a small group, discussing separate issues with each other for years and ...without having a clear definition of mutual GOALS.

We at least have to clearly understand how each of us sees th situation AFTER the solution, from all sides - to know what is the average, middle ground.

This is an excellent point. I believe a peaceful end goal would be Jewish self-rule in the State of Israel and Arab Palestinian self-rule, which may or may not mean the creation of new states.

"new stateS"

Emirates come to mind...what did You mean?

 

[Coyote]

Mmmm

Israel or no Israel?

Defined as a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC?

How about a straight answer?

 

[Coyote]

You can buy women's lingerie/sex toys in one and not in the others. That's why there's never been a UNIFIED Palestine in the 1st place.

With all due respect, you cannot even imagine how stupid this sounds. I mean, it can't have anything to do with living under a military occupation for generations, Right?

What happened to the Palestinian Authority? At one time, there were Pali cops on the beat, prosperity, a govt and leadership. Laws being written. Judges being appointed.

That's WHY Israel was enticed into releasing Gaza to them. You don't release land into the hands of a mob.

Tell me WHEN in all of history that there was a "unified" Palestine governed like a real nation..

As long as the Palestinians remain divided with the PA & Hamas hating & killing each other over who will rule the Palestinians, there is no hope for peace, thus leaving Israel the winner in control of the land in question.

All the neighboring Arab countries have rejected Islamic extremism. Don't want those folks within their borders. So -- if the Palis are gonna INSIST on supporting Islamic extremists -- likely --- they will NEVER have a nation.

Not in that neighborhood.. Hamas is a non-starter. Ask Egypt...

Like Shusha says -- "time to grow up" and stop sending your kids into the streets to confront the IDF security forces. It's their future at stake and time's a wasting. Boot Hamas and move on..

Hamas has done no favors for the Palestinians.

 

[abi]

How about a straight answer?

Is that a fair definition of Israel to you people? Let's be clear what we are talking about.

 

[rylah]

Together, as the human race, facing reality without lies and distractions.

Roughly 300 Palestinians and Israelis marched along a major West Bank highway Friday afternoon to demand an end to the occupation and to protest Israeli settlements in the West Bank. The monthly protest march is deliberately held on a road that both Palestinians and Israeli settlers use, with the intention of demonstrating a joint Palestinian-Israeli anti-occupation message in full view of settlers.

The march set out from the “Tunnels Checkpoint,” the main checkpoint for settlers entering Jerusalem from the southern West Bank settlements of Gush Etzion.

The march has been organized by a consortium of peace and anti-occupation organizations in recent months. On Friday the most prominent organization was Combatants for Peace. The main slogan was: “There is another way.”

‘There is another way’: Palestinians, Israelis march together against the occupation | +972 Magazine

abi
I'd really like to hear You'r definition of Peace.
For both sides.

 

[abi]

abi
I'd really like to hear You'r definition of Peace.
For both sides.

Ultimately, I equate it with freedom.

 

[rylah]

abi
I'd really like to hear You'r definition of Peace.
For both sides.

Ultimately, I equate it with freedom.

Please be specific, what are the main goals in the equation of Peace,
what is the situation the day AFTER the solution?

 

[Humanity]

abi
I'd really like to hear You'r definition of Peace.
For both sides.

Ultimately, I equate it with freedom.

Man, that's a real cop out!

There is a WORLD of difference between freedom and peace!