This is how we end it! (solution)

[Shusha]

Defined as a State in which the Jewish people have independence, sovereignty and self-determination, having reconstituted their 3000 year old nation.

Don't play games with the definitions -- the point is acceptance of the Jewish narrative.

HA! Don't play games with the definitions? From you? Listen, Shusha, Jews already have the same rights as everyone else.

I thought you were talking about Israel, as a homeland for the Jewish people, as you do day in and day out.

Israel, yes or no?

Defined as a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC?

Yes or no, abi? If you want to put qualifications on it -- go ahead.

Yes, but....?

 

[abi]

Defined as a State in which the Jewish people have independence, sovereignty and self-determination, having reconstituted their 3000 year old nation.

Don't play games with the definitions -- the point is acceptance of the Jewish narrative.

HA! Don't play games with the definitions? From you? Listen, Shusha, Jews already have the same rights as everyone else.

I thought you were talking about Israel, as a homeland for the Jewish people, as you do day in and day out.

Israel, yes or no?

Defined as a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC?

Yes or no, abi? If you want to put qualifications on it -- go ahead.

Yes, but....?

As a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC, obviously not.

Jews having self-determination in Palestine might work, though. We don't know yet and it is awkward discussing what the Palestinians would or should accept at this point. Ultimately, there are about 6 million of them yet to return and their land has been carved up to the point that today it looks more like swiss cheese than the land they were forced off of by the zionist regime.

I really hate speaking for these people as I can't begin to understand what a multigenerational occupation does to a people, but I am leaning towards a one state solution based in freedom with equal rights for all.

 

[Humanity]

See, Humanity ? That only took ten minutes.

That did make me chuckle!

Humanity let me just say that Your attitude seems to be one of the most centered , close to neutrality.
Although I may disagree on much of what You say, I see in Your posts an attempt to comprehend the situation from 2 sides to reach Your own conclusion.

Q.Can You define "Peace", as You see it from both sides?
Q.What is the common "middle ground" in Your view?

Well, I will take that as a great compliment. Thank you!

Peace, from both sides, has to be about accepting each other, about one side NOT constantly firing rockets into Israel, about Israel trying to be a little more 'understanding', for Palestinians to find a 'governing body' who is prepared to a) Work for the Palestinians as a whole b) drop the 'annihilate' Israel mantra c) cease all violent acts against Israel.

Israel also needs to 'wind its neck' in a little too by the way! Accept that there are others, not just Palestinians, who put great emphasis on the holy lands, including Jerusalem. Stop the 'historical' mantra that is just boring as hell and, sorry, really not THAT relevant IMHO. Why you may ask do I feel it not THAT relevant... Simply that the whole region has been conquered, reconquered, for millennia. How can it be claimed as ONE persons 'property'!

"Common middle ground"? Well, at the moment there is none, otherwise there would quite possibly be peace. That is pretty much the issue as I see it... And remember, these are just my views, and, as you have already said, you "disagree on much of what I say"... Hamas wants rid of Israel, Israel wants a 'Greater Israel'... Voila, no "common middle ground".

I'm an Israeli, from here it doesn't seem You have a bet in any side.
I think You can help us all, at least in this forum to understand better what is the dynamic between the opposing claims.

Thanks for the sincerity,
let me think about Your answer.

You will have me taking on the role of Secretary-General of the United Nations next!

I have visited Israel and had a wonderful time in such a beautiful country. I have also visited Muslim countries and had a wonderful times there too... I have Muslim and Jewish friends, including Israelis, and certainly don't have a "bet" on any side.

One thing that is so clear to me as far as FIRST step that need to be taken. All hostilities toward Israel from Gaza/Hamas needs to end! I'm not talking about getting into ANY negotiations, no need for talking. Just STOP the rockets!

Hamas needs to be removed from power in Gaza. Period! Whether that is by elections or 'force' I don't are. Of course I prefer the peaceful route of elections but if it requires force then so be it. I would even accept an interim 'power' to run Gaza, in the best interests of Gazans. To show them that things can be VERY different! If it takes years to form a unified Palestinian government then so be it... Stop the attacks on Israel!

This would give the Palestinians much stronger support, not just from within the ME but across the world.

Yes, of course there are MANY more things that need to be resolved but I believe that this would be a GREAT first step!

 

[Shusha]

Defined as a State in which the Jewish people have independence, sovereignty and self-determination, having reconstituted their 3000 year old nation.

Don't play games with the definitions -- the point is acceptance of the Jewish narrative.

HA! Don't play games with the definitions? From you? Listen, Shusha, Jews already have the same rights as everyone else.

I thought you were talking about Israel, as a homeland for the Jewish people, as you do day in and day out.

Israel, yes or no?

Defined as a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC?

Yes or no, abi? If you want to put qualifications on it -- go ahead.

Yes, but....?

As a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC, obviously not.

Jews having self-determination in Palestine might work, though. We don't know yet and it is awkward discussing what the Palestinians would or should accept at this point. Ultimately, there are about 6 million of them yet to return and their land has been carved up to the point that today it looks more like swiss cheese than the land they were forced off of by the zionist regime.

I really hate speaking for these people as I can't begin to understand what a multigenerational occupation does to a people, but I am leaning towards a one state solution based in freedom with equal rights for all.

That would be a "no", then. The day after a "solution" is reached, as rylah asked, there would no longer be an Israel. Thank you for finally answering the question. It is a rejection of Jewish sovereignty, independence and self-determination.

 

[abi]

That would be a "no", then. The day after a "solution" is reached, as rylah asked, there would no longer be an Israel. Thank you for finally answering the question. It is a rejection of Jewish sovereignty, independence and self-determination.

That's what you got from: I really hate speaking for these people as I can't begin to understand what a multigenerational occupation does to a people, but I am leaning towards a one state solution based in freedom with equal rights for all.

 

[abi]

One thing that is so clear to me as far as FIRST step that need to be taken. All hostilities toward Israel from Gaza/Hamas needs to end! I'm not talking about getting into ANY negotiations, no need for talking. Just STOP the rockets!

Absolutely, but the reality is that this will not end until the occupation ends.

Hamas needs to be removed from power in Gaza. Period! Whether that is by elections or 'force' I don't are.

Same for the zionist regime. Let's see if we can get leaders that care more for humanity than they do their ideology.

This would give the Palestinians much stronger support, not just from within the ME but across the world.

The world just voted. 176-7! The world just handed Israel another humiliating defeat at the United Nations.

The only support they don't get is from the zionists.

 

[Humanity]

if the foundation narrative is, "the Temple Mount is holy to Jews and we must honor that", it will probably work out okay.

And if the foundation is based on a false premise, then why not abandon it for the sake of Peace?

Its not based on a false premise, abi. The Temple Mount IS holy to Jews.

As it is to Christians and Muslims... As it will always be...

Yes of course, we can all argue about history or take the "I was here first" kind of mentality, but, for me, it is difficult for me to accept that a 'holy place', considered holy by millions of people from different faiths be classified as being single faith.

But again, that is not what I am saying. Accepting that it is holy to Jews is NOT the same thing as saying it is ONLY holy to Jews.

You do notice that Muslims are permitted to pray there. Christians and Jews are not. That must change. We agree?

It's just that you take the 'single' stance Shusha... You can see that?

Oh and yes, ALL faiths who hold the site holy should have absolute right to worship there. That is NOT in question as far as I am concerned!

 

[Shusha]

That would be a "no", then. The day after a "solution" is reached, as rylah asked, there would no longer be an Israel. Thank you for finally answering the question. It is a rejection of Jewish sovereignty, independence and self-determination.

That's what you got from: I really hate speaking for these people as I can't begin to understand what a multigenerational occupation does to a people, but I am leaning towards a one state solution based in freedom with equal rights for all.

Alright, I'll bite. Feel free to further clarify what you think this one state will look like.

What would a one state solution look like? How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory? Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government? Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation? How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile? How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible? Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there? What would you call the new country? What would its charter look like? Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither? Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis? Who will be eligible? Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?

Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state". Please be specific. What does this mean? This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions. How will the new country handle illegal building? Or terrorist acts? Terrorist groups who try to rise up? How will you handle discrimination?

How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?

 

[Shusha]

It's just that you take the 'single' stance Shusha... You can see that?

How so? I thought I was pretty vocal about a fair two state solution for BOTH peoples, acceptance of each other's narratives, and cessation of hostilities. The only reason I speak more about the Jewish side of things is to counteract people like abi, who, sadly, post far more often than you and Coyote.

 

[abi]

Alright, I'll bite. Feel free to further clarify what you think this one state will look like.

What would a one state solution look like? How would it preserve both the Jewish and the Arab character of the territory? Do you envision a system of loosely connected, self-governing provinces with a federal government or just one overall government? Would parliament be half Jewish/half Arab, or would there be some sort of proportional representation? How would you protect the minority populations, including some which may be somewhat hostile? How would you preserve the cultural artifacts of each group, both tangible and non-tangible? Who gets to pray on the Temple Mount, renovate or build there? Would the Jewish people be able to build a synagogue there? What would you call the new country? What would its charter look like? Will the laws be based on sharia or halakhah or both or neither? Will immigration be based on jus soli or jus sanguinis? Who will be eligible? Will civil matters, such as marriage, be handled by civil courts or by religious institutions?

Some are going to say, "a secular and democratic state". Please be specific. What does this mean? This is a great opportunity for you to discuss not only the mistakes you see Israel making -- but provide solutions. How will the new country handle illegal building? Or terrorist acts? Terrorist groups who try to rise up? How will you handle discrimination?

How will you convince me that in a hundred years, the state will still be both a Jewish state and also an Arab state?

The government, hopefully elected by the people will decide all this.

 

[Humanity]

Absolutely, but the reality is that this will not end until the occupation ends.

The "occupation", and yes, I believe that, technically, Gaza is under a form of "occupation", should have NO bearing on whether rocket attacks are carried out or not. Let me ask you, how much have these rocket attacks achieved over the years?

Same for the zionist regime. Let's see if we can get leaders that care more for humanity than they do their ideology.

Well, that is another story, perhaps for another thread. However, I do not have any faith in the current Israeli leaders.

The world just voted. 176-7! The world just handed Israel another humiliating defeat at the United Nations.

The only support they don't get is from the zionists.

Another 'issue' I have with Israel... They give a crap about the UN and the UN is powerless to do anything about it. 183-0 and the importance of the result to Israel would be the same... Zip!

 

[abi]

How so? I thought I was pretty vocal about a fair two state solution for BOTH peoples, acceptance of each other's narratives, and cessation of hostilities. The only reason I speak more about the Jewish side of things is to counteract people like abi, who, sadly, post far more often than you and Coyote.

I am only showing you where your narrative fails and that is not why you do it. I have read many of your posts from before I was here and they have been the same for years. You got caught lying again.

 

[abi]

The "occupation", and yes, I believe that, technically, Gaza is under a form of "occupation", should have NO bearing on whether rocket attacks are carried out or not. Let me ask you, how much have these rocket attacks achieved over the years?

I think there is a mall percentage of Palestinians who view these as small victories. When these Palestinians see there civilian neighbors murdered horribly, over an over by Israeli bombs, they feel like it is their duty to take lives of Israelis.

Another 'issue' I have with Israel... They give a crap about the UN and the UN is powerless to do anything about it. 183-0 and the importance of the result to Israel would be the same... Zip!

, but true.

 

[Humanity]

It's just that you take the 'single' stance Shusha... You can see that?

How so? I thought I was pretty vocal about a fair two state solution for BOTH peoples, acceptance of each other's narratives, and cessation of hostilities. The only reason I speak more about the Jewish side of things is to counteract people like abi, who, sadly, post far more often than you and Coyote.

In your recent post about "mutual" there was only Jews/Israel mentioned... That's how so... And it clearly portrays the 'wrong' impression.

I hear you about one or two of the 'fanatical' Team P members but... Don't you think that, instead of butting heads with them, joining in the 'fanatical' from the Team I perspective it would be better to try and 'balance' your arguments, your comments. This can only quieten those 'fanaticals' in Team P?

I believe that if Team P and Team I can offer more honest, balanced views and opinions rather than simply butting heads together all the time there may just be something good coming out of the 'discussions' rather than just going round and round in circles.

 

[Shusha]

It's just that you take the 'single' stance Shusha... You can see that?

How so? I thought I was pretty vocal about a fair two state solution for BOTH peoples, acceptance of each other's narratives, and cessation of hostilities. The only reason I speak more about the Jewish side of things is to counteract people like abi, who, sadly, post far more often than you and Coyote.

In your recent post about "mutual" there was only Jews/Israel mentioned... That's how so... And it clearly portrays the 'wrong' impression.

I hear you about one or two of the 'fanatical' Team P members but... Don't you think that, instead of butting heads with them, joining in the 'fanatical' from the Team I perspective it would be better to try and 'balance' your arguments, your comments. This can only quieten those 'fanaticals' in Team P?

I believe that if Team P and Team I can offer more honest, balanced views and opinions rather than simply butting heads together all the time there may just be something good coming out of the 'discussions' rather than just going round and round in circles.

Really? You see me as one of the fanatical on the Team I side? On par with the likes of abi? Ouch, dude.

I hear what you are saying about ignoring the fanatics and only addressing those with balanced viewpoints. But you and Coyote don't come around often enough. Grin.

 

[Shusha]

With respect to 'mutual', please take this opportunity to bring me into a more fair view, then. What, do you think, the Israeli side needs to shift in their thinking?

 

[Humanity]

I think there is a mall percentage of Palestinians who view these as small victories. When these Palestinians see there civilian neighbors murdered horribly, over an over by Israeli bombs, they feel like it is their duty to take lives of Israelis.

Yes, I suspect that Hamas sees firing rockets, mostly, into waste ground as some kind of 'victory'... More delusional one could not get!

How many Israelis have been killed by the rockets fired from Gaza?

"over and over by Israeli bombs"?

I'm not entirely sure you understand WHY Israel bombs Gaza. I would suggest, primarily because of the rockets fired into Israel. Hey, I am in NO way supporting Israel bombing Gaza, using, in my opinion, a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Maybe, just maybe, you can see why Hamas stopping ALL rocket fire into Israel can ONLY be a good thing for everyone?

 

[Coyote]

How about a straight answer?

Is that a fair definition of Israel to you people? Let's be clear what we are talking about.

Israel is a nation. Does it have right to exist as a Jewish state?

If no...then why is Jordan allowed to be a Muslim state with no questions? Imo it is not up to me or you to make that decision. That doesnt affect rights to exist but only how nations relate to each other and whether there if there are abuses of rights and equality.

 

[Humanity]

Really? You see me as one of the fanatical on the Team I side? On par with the likes of abi? Ouch, dude.

Hardly dear Shusha, hardly! I was simply referring to your posting of what appeared to be one sided "mutuality"

I hear what you are saying about ignoring the fanatics and only addressing those with balanced viewpoints. But you and Coyote don't come around often enough. Grin.

Haha... Perhaps it's not just about addressing balanced viewpoints! Maybe, given time, those 'fanaticals' will learn something, learn some mutual respect and realise that there is little point in getting high blood pressure, locking horns in something that is, for me, becoming pretty boring as far as 'he said, she said'.

 

[Coyote]

Defined as a State in which the Jewish people have independence, sovereignty and self-determination, having reconstituted their 3000 year old nation.

Don't play games with the definitions -- the point is acceptance of the Jewish narrative.

HA! Don't play games with the definitions? From you? Listen, Shusha, Jews already have the same rights as everyone else.

I thought you were talking about Israel, as a homeland for the Jewish people, as you do day in and day out.

Israel, yes or no?

Defined as a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC?

Yes or no, abi? If you want to put qualifications on it -- go ahead.

Yes, but....?

As a homeland for the Jewish people in the land known as Palestine since at least 450BC, obviously not.

Jews having self-determination in Palestine might work, though. We don't know yet and it is awkward discussing what the Palestinians would or should accept at this point. Ultimately, there are about 6 million of them yet to return and their land has been carved up to the point that today it looks more like swiss cheese than the land they were forced off of by the zionist regime.

I really hate speaking for these people as I can't begin to understand what a multigenerational occupation does to a people, but I am leaning towards a one state solution based in freedom with equal rights for all.

How eould thst be insured and how would you protect minorities goven the current record in thr ME.