This is how we end it! (solution)

[Coyote]

Alright, fine. I will do my own work instead of asking you to do it for me. What do the Israelis need to shift in their thinking?

Stop getting flustered. It is simple. Right of return, an end to the occupation and equal rights for everyone.

When the right of return comes up, it brings up some very serious questions and two proverbs.

You can't unbreak eggs once broken. In other words you cant go back and change things back.

What does the right of return mean? That every individual and progeny can return? Where to exactly? Would Israel cease to exist? Would this be a GOOD thing? If Jews once again became a minority how would their rights be protected? Like they were in Europe in the not so distant past? Like they were in Arab countries when they wete expelled?

How would you reassure a Jewish child who's grandparents died in Buchenwald and who's sister died in a bomb attack on a bus that she would ever be safe or secure in this new country?

Keep in mind that as much as you complain about Israel the rest of the Middle East's record on human rights and minority protections is pretty abysmal.

The other proverb is that two wrongs don't make a right. You can not fix the wrongs committed on the Palestinians by perpetrating another great injustice. Or can you?

Millions of diverse ordinary people who have lived Israel for several generations have rights as well.

 

[Shusha]

Who else knows what it is like to live through generations of occupation?

The Jewish people.

 

[Coyote]

The problem when fanatics overrun the argument is that it is easy to become defensive and inflexible protecting your corner against really awfull rhetoric. I find it gets harder to see both sides very well

Do you acknowledge an occupation and settlements?

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

 

[abi]

When the right of return comes up, it brings up some very serious questions and two proverbs.

You can't unbreak eggs once broken. In other words you cant go back and change things back.

We unbroke the eggs in the Sinai and Gaza.

And all over Europe too.

What does the right of return mean? That every individual and progeny can return? Where to exactly? Would Israel cease to exist? Would this be a GOOD thing? If Jews once again became a minority how would their rights be protected? Like they were in Europe in the not so distant past? Like they were in Arab countries when they wete expelled?

Hopefully with a free and fair elections.

How would you reassure a Jewish child who's grandparents died in Buchenwald and who's sister died in a bomb attack on a bus that she would ever be safe or secure in this new country?

The holocaust again? THE PALESTINIANS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLOCAUST.

 

[abi]

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

I mean that Shusha denies their existence and claims there is no occupation.

 

[abi]

If Jews once again became a minority how would their rights be protected?

And sorry, but only a zionist insinuates that Jews must be the majority in Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

The problem when fanatics overrun the argument is that it is easy to become defensive and inflexible protecting your corner against really awfull rhetoric. I find it gets harder to see both sides very well

Do you acknowledge an occupation and settlements?

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

How do you define "settlements"?

 

[Shusha]

If Jews once again became a minority how would their rights be protected?

And sorry, but only a zionist insinuates that Jews must be the majority in Palestine.

Not the question.

 

[Coyote]

When the right of return comes up, it brings up some very serious questions and two proverbs.

You can't unbreak eggs once broken. In other words you cant go back and change things back.

We unbroke the eggs in the Sinai and Gaza.

And all over Europe too.

What does the right of return mean? That every individual and progeny can return? Where to exactly? Would Israel cease to exist? Would this be a GOOD thing? If Jews once again became a minority how would their rights be protected? Like they were in Europe in the not so distant past? Like they were in Arab countries when they wete expelled?

Hopefully with a free and fair elections.

How would you reassure a Jewish child who's grandparents died in Buchenwald and who's sister died in a bomb attack on a bus that she would ever be safe or secure in this new country?

The holocaust again? THE PALESTINIANS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLOCAUST.

You ignore the larger questions here.

The holocaust should not used as an excuse but it also cannot be ignored as it was an integral part of the emergence of Israel as a state. There is no other Jewish state. No other safe place.

You mention not understanding how people can live under generations of occupation. Likewise I fond it also hard to understand how people can live through a concentration camp. Do you?

 

[Shusha]

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

I mean that Shusha denies their existence and claims there is no occupation.

Its a civil war, not an occupation. Its just a detail. I am not claiming that the Palestinians don't have legitimate complaints. But the detail matters.

 

[Coyote]

The problem when fanatics overrun the argument is that it is easy to become defensive and inflexible protecting your corner against really awfull rhetoric. I find it gets harder to see both sides very well

Do you acknowledge an occupation and settlements?

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

How do you define "settlements"?

Housing built on occupied/disputed territory taken in war by the occuping/opposong force and deemed illegal under international law.

I know we dont agree on this one.

 

[abi]

There is no other Jewish state. No other safe place.

The does not need to be a Jewish state in Palestine any more than a Christian one in China.

Jews are very safe, even thriving in many countries this world over.

You mention not understanding how people can live under generations of occupation. Likewise I fond it also hard to understand how people can live through a concentration camp. Do you?

Yes, horrible, be serious.

 

[teddyearp]

Also, you cut off what I said on purpose.

You do it almost every time! How's it feel snowflake?

 

[Coyote]

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

I mean that Shusha denies their existence and claims there is no occupation.

Its a civil war, not an occupation. Its just a detail. I am not claiming that the Palestinians don't have legitimate complaints. But the detail matters.

A civil war implies a once united country.

 

[Shusha]

The problem when fanatics overrun the argument is that it is easy to become defensive and inflexible protecting your corner against really awfull rhetoric. I find it gets harder to see both sides very well

Do you acknowledge an occupation and settlements?

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

How do you define "settlements"?

Housing built on occupied/disputed territory taken in war by the occuping/opposong force and deemed illegal under international law.

I know we dont agree on this one.

I think we might if we discussed it further. But I'll start a separate thread for it.

 

[abi]

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

I mean that Shusha denies their existence and claims there is no occupation.

Its a civil war, not an occupation. Its just a detail. I am not claiming that the Palestinians don't have legitimate complaints. But the detail matters.

A civil war implies a once united country.

And, by definition, a civil war is not happening when an army comes from one continent to fight against those of another.

 

[Shusha]

A civil war implies a once united country.

Sure. An occupation requires two distinct sovereign countries. Civil war is a better fit.

 

[Coyote]

There is no other Jewish state. No other safe place.

The does not need to be a Jewish state in Palestine any more than a Christian one in China.

Jews are very safe, even thriving in many countries this world over.

You mention not understanding how people can live under generations of occupation. Likewise I fond it also hard to understand how people can live through a concentration camp. Do you?

Yes, horrible, be serious.

Jews are not very safe. Look at their history of persecution and the rise of antisemitism around the world. The holocaust is still in LIVING memory. They are a very small minority and easily scapegoated. How many countries refused to take in Jews in ww2? Until it was too late? If I were Jewish it would be hard to put that behind me and trust in the good will of people who once hared me and could again in times of trouble. They have a right to a homeland. So do the Palestinians. There is enough room for all you know.

 

[abi]

Jews are not very safe. Look at their history of persecution and the rise of antisemitism around the world

I have in some depth and what we see today in terms of what is commonly called antisemitism is mainly due to the zionist regime.

Please stop with the holocaust stuff.

 

[Lastamender]

The problem when fanatics overrun the argument is that it is easy to become defensive and inflexible protecting your corner against really awfull rhetoric. I find it gets harder to see both sides very well

Do you acknowledge an occupation and settlements?

What do you mean acknowledge? I oppose settlements as a deliberate provocation and obstacle to the peace process

Islam, which is what Israel is dealing with, needs no provocation. People that cannot admit the hate for Jews taught in the Koran and to Palestinian children guarantees no solution will ever be found. Islam will not honor treaties, it is not bound to, also clearly stated in Islamic literature.

 

[Shusha]

There is no other Jewish state. No other safe place.

The does not need to be a Jewish state in Palestine any more than a Christian one in China.

Jews are very safe, even thriving in many countries this world over.

You mention not understanding how people can live under generations of occupation. Likewise I fond it also hard to understand how people can live through a concentration camp. Do you?

Yes, horrible, be serious.

Jews are not very safe. Look at their history of persecution and the rise of antisemitism around the world. The holocaust is still in LIVING memory. They are a very small minority and easily scapegoated. How many countries refused to take in Jews in ww2? Until it was too late? If I were Jewish it would be hard to put that behind me and trust in the good will of people who once hared me and could again in times of trouble. They have a right to a homeland. So do the Palestinians. There is enough room for all you know.

As most of you know, I live in Canada. Canada is a very safe, accepting, multi-cultural county. (Far from perfect, there is lots of work to be done still. But generally safe.)

Still, this Hanukkah, a number of synagogues in Canada received startling, genocidal death notes. Our local synagogue also received hate mail this past week. It is impossible to put behind us the atrocities of the past while they are still being called for.

(Though that didn't stop us from having a party in the city square last night).