This is why we need a living wage

[Againsheila]

They should make themselves worth more to their employer.
Sorry, Noomi. Flipping burgers isn't worth much because if you quit, I can have someone trained to replace you as quick as you can say, "Do you want fries with that?"

But it costs you more to retrain new people more often than it would to raise their pay by such a small percentage as is being suggested. And, especially for those companies that are making record business. Granted, if the company is barely making it, it might not be profitable.

Make yourself valuable. Ask your manager if you can help close the store or inventory supplies. Learn to do something that your co-workers can't do. Learn something that the next guy through the door doesn't know.

True that if a person shows incentive some managers will recognize it and make it worthwhile, but not all will.

It costs me next to nothing to train a guy to cook French fries. Put a measured amount in the basket. Drop them in the oil. Set the timer. When the bell rings, lift the fries out of the oil. Oh and don't stick your face in the hot oil.
If you quit, I can have someone cooking fries in 10 minutes.

When I got out of HS, I worked as a machinist for a couple years before college. This was 1967 when minimum wage was $1.25.
I started at MW but by the end of the week, I was making $2.00. By the end of the month, I was making $4.00.
I have worked for companies that did not recognize extra effort and incentive. In every case, they were union shops where working hard was discouraged.

Exactly why we need to raise the minimum wage. For decades small businesses, especially fast food restaurants would fire people anytime they got close to getting a raise or benefits. If they could, they'd just make them so miserable they'd quit on their own. So many of them are working two jobs that they'd just change the hours so they'd have to quit on of their jobs. And sadly, today, we have so many immigrants and adults fighting for those low wage jobs our economy is in really bad shape.

 

[alan1]

I applaud you on many levels. You are helping instill a work ethic in the kid, you are helping him empower himself with a trade that he can fall back on or expand into a real business someday, and you are teaching him that he must do what he is paid to do in order to be paid. That said, it is not really an example of a "living wage" situation. If anything, it is an example of how prices are set. You are willing to pay it and he is willing to do it for that price. That is no different than what happens in the larger market at McDonald's that will start the kid off at Minimum Wage if he is willing to do it. Otherwise they will find someone else who will just as you would need to find someone else to mow your grass if he was not willing to do it at a price you were willing to pay.

That is very libertarian of you, and very factual of you.
Nobody is forced to work for minimum wage or for a wage they find unacceptable. Wages are a negotiation between an employer (somebody willing to pay for labor) and an employee (somebody willing to offer labor for a wage). We often pay for stuff we don't want to do ourselves. I buy bacon at a grocery store because I don't want to raise a pig, kill a pig, clean a pig, cut a pig up, build a smokehouse, cut down trees to build the smokehouse and for the smoking, or all the other things that are required so I can eat bacon. I'm more than willing to pay for hog ranchers, butchers, smokers and tree-cutters to do that work for me. But, there is only so much I will pay for bacon, if the rancher, butcher, smoker, smokehouse builder and tree-cutter all earned $50 an hour I probably wouldn't buy bacon or raise, butcher and smoke my own hogs for the bacon, I'd go without bacon.

You're right about going without bacon. When food production was much more labor intensive, and required a much larger percentage of the population to work on farms, food was more expensive and you probably would do without bacon at least more frequently than now. That's exactly right. It is not simply a matter of each stage of food production paying higher wages but rather the total cost of that food production. If each stage required ten fold the number of manhours, either wages would plummet or food would get more expensive or a combination thereof. We live in a wonderful time where bacon is cheap and plentiful and conveniently available. In how many periods of history could so many people eat meat from multiple animals at the same time (bacon cheeseburger), in such portions, and with such frequency?

I'm glad that you understand where I was going with that.

That part about
"Nobody is forced to work for minimum wage or for a wage they find unacceptable. Wages are a negotiation between an employer (somebody willing to pay for labor) and an employee (somebody willing to offer labor for a wage)."
is not entirely true. Because it is not entirely true, labor unions were born. Because it is not entirely true, we have a minimum wage.

"...the exploitation of a class of workers who are in an unequal position with respect to bargaining power, and are thus relatively defenceless against the denial of a living wage, is not only detrimental to their health and wellbeing, but casts a direct burden for their support upon the community. What these workers lose in wages, the taxpayers are called upon to pay. The bare cost of living must be met."
West Coast Hotel Co. v. Parrish, 300 US 379 - 1937

Actually, my above statement (that you put in italics) is absolutely true. Neither you nor anybody else can show me proof that legal slavery or involuntary servitude exists in this country. A judge can make a cute quote all he want's to, you can interpret it however you want to, but the truth is, nobody is forced to work for a wage they are not willing to work for.
In addition, I would never let a union decide for me (or a company) what the value of my labor is worth. I am not defenseless when it comes to bargaining power for my talents and skills, I am realistic about it. I get paid more than my peers because I am worth more to the company. A union would have us all earn the same compensation. Some years I negotiate more vacation time and accept a smaller smaller salary increase, unions don't allow for that flexibility.

 

[alan1]

They'd probably be fired if they took it. Regardless, the problem with that evil Walmart argument is that in my area, the "living wage" is below Walmart's average wage nationally, not to mention that paying a person enough to survive on part-time work is unfair to full-time workers.

Why do you think they'd be fired because somebody tipped them?.

I don't know that they would be, but it would not surprise me in the least. Some businesses discourage the tipping of employees because it might either lead to employees always having their hand out or to some customers not willing to tip made to feel uncomfortable.

I hope that was a facetious or joking comment.
Somethings are unclear on internet message boards.

No I wasn't. What would make you think it was fair?

It wouldn't be fair. My mistake, I thought you advocating for it.

 

[Andylusion]

They are naively accepting a low wage because they have nothing else. But they should be paid more.

Why would they accept the wage if it did not better their situation? Are they better off making a small amount or no amount at all?

Not everyone is in a position of being able to be picky. Still, that's no reason to take advantage of people.

You are taking advantage of people, when you go to work in expectation of agreed upon payment.

You are talking advantage of people, when you have someone fix your car for an agreed upon payment.

When you go to a cheaper store to buy food, when you replace your TV with a bigger better model, when you buy that triple latte from Starbucks, you are taking advantage of people who are offering a service or product you want.

Why is it when the employer takes advantage of people who want jobs, that's bad, when when it's you taking the products and services those jobs provide, that's good?

 

[Andylusion]

But it costs you more to retrain new people more often than it would to raise their pay by such a small percentage as is being suggested. And, especially for those companies that are making record business. Granted, if the company is barely making it, it might not be profitable.


True that if a person shows incentive some managers will recognize it and make it worthwhile, but not all will.

It costs me next to nothing to train a guy to cook French fries. Put a measured amount in the basket. Drop them in the oil. Set the timer. When the bell rings, lift the fries out of the oil. Oh and don't stick your face in the hot oil.
If you quit, I can have someone cooking fries in 10 minutes.

When I got out of HS, I worked as a machinist for a couple years before college. This was 1967 when minimum wage was $1.25.
I started at MW but by the end of the week, I was making $2.00. By the end of the month, I was making $4.00.
I have worked for companies that did not recognize extra effort and incentive. In every case, they were union shops where working hard was discouraged.

Exactly why we need to raise the minimum wage. For decades small businesses, especially fast food restaurants would fire people anytime they got close to getting a raise or benefits. If they could, they'd just make them so miserable they'd quit on their own. So many of them are working two jobs that they'd just change the hours so they'd have to quit on of their jobs. And sadly, today, we have so many immigrants and adults fighting for those low wage jobs our economy is in really bad shape.

What??
"In every case, they were union shops where working hard was discouraged"
Response....
"Exactly why we need to raise the minimum wage"

Huh?


I have been in the low wage market for decades. I have never earned more than $20K in a single year, in my whole life.

To this day, I have never once, not one time, seen any boss, company, or employeer of any place, fire someone because they were close to getting a raise.

First off, raises are not set in stone to begin with. If they didn't want to give a raise, they simply wouldn't get it.

The only counter example, would be Unions, where some union contracts require raises at set times. Well yeah, if a person isn't worth a raise, and some dumb union contract requires they get a raise.... yeah I would fire them too.

The same reason I would fire the guy who changes my oil, if he suddenly demanded $100 for an oil change. Changing oil isn't worth $100. Nor is flipping a burger over magically worth $15/hr just because they flipped the burger over for 12 months.

 

[alan1]

I read many posts about how low walmarts wage stacture is .



the darling of the left who died a few years back steve( apple ) jobs PAID MIN WAGE TO A LOT OF HIS EMPLOYEES AND OUTSOURCED MOST OF IT why no complaint t about him ? he is one democrat of many who pay min to employees at least be consistant

All employers should be paying a living wage to all their employees. If you don't make enough to pay a living wage, you really don't make enough to hire anybody.

Let's raise the minimum wage to the purchasing power it had when it started, index it for inflation, and then the debate will be over.

Do you tip every person you feel is underpaid? Enough of a tip to bring them up to the wage you feel that they deserve?
Last I looked, nobody is stopping you from doing so.

 

[alan1]

Bulcrap! We have sacrificed so we would have money when we retire. You think this is about me? Have I really struck you as being so selfish?

Honestly, yes you have. When I see people demanding "to each according to their need," as you do, it is ALWAYS a scheme to feather their own nest.

Well, you're wrong. I volunteer at my friend's church giving out lunches to the homeless once a week, I volunteer at our local theater, I'm a member of a non academic sorority that raises funds to fight cancer. I give a whole lot of my self. Demanding a living wage for the lowest paid workers in the richest country in the world is not selfish, it's sensible.
Plus, it's economically sound. Put the money in the hands of the people who will spend it and that enriches our economy.

Feel free to volunteer all you want to, that is noble.
Forcing others to volunteer (via law or tax) is tyranny.

 

[alan1]

All employers should be paying a living wage to all their employees. If you don't make enough to pay a living wage, you really don't make enough to hire anybody.

Let's raise the minimum wage to the purchasing power it had when it started, index it for inflation, and then the debate will be over.

Define "living wage"

Should a high school kid who works 3 hours a day after school be paid a living wage what ever THAT is? Should a bagger at Win Dixie be paid as much as a plumber?
I own a small business. I generally spend 12 plus hours a day there. Since I bought the place, I've gone 4 months with just one single day off. I do not draw a salary. Should I be forced to pay myself? How much?

The CEO got a huge raise. You didn't. Here's why.

Nearly 45 percent of U.S. workers who earned less than $10.10 an hour last year had either attended college or had graduated, according to an analysis by John Schmitt, a senior economist at the liberal Center for Economic and Policy Research

Who gives a shit?
Bill Gates was a college dropout.
Mark Zuckerberg was a college dropout.
Ellen DeGeneres was a college dropout.
Steve Jobs was a college dropout.
Oprah Winfry was a college dropout.

 

[HenryBHough]

Three outta five ain't bad.

 

[alan1]

The CEO got a huge raise. You didn't. Here's why.

Nearly 45 percent of U.S. workers who earned less than $10.10 an hour last year had either attended college or had graduated, according to an analysis by John Schmitt, a senior economist at the liberal Center for Economic and Policy Research

Oh yes! The evil CEO straw man comes out now. I am the CEO of my corporation. Am I evil because I don't pay myself a "living wage"?

Did you read the quote? nearly 45 percent of workers in our country who make $10.10 an hour or less have at least some college or a college degree. Nearly half of our workers are educated enough to be paid more yet they aren't. Why? Because the jobs aren't there and the spending power of minimum wage, which they are forced on, has gone down. Raise it so that it has the same spending power it had when it was started, then index it for inflation and our whole country will be better for it.

Oh the irony.
Yer current signature line is this,
"We have to pass this bill so you can find out what's in it! Nancy Pelosi"

 

[alan1]

The CEO got a huge raise. You didn't. Here's why.

Nearly 45 percent of U.S. workers who earned less than $10.10 an hour last year had either attended college or had graduated, according to an analysis by John Schmitt, a senior economist at the liberal Center for Economic and Policy Research

Oh yes! The evil CEO straw man comes out now. I am the CEO of my corporation. Am I evil because I don't pay myself a "living wage"?

Did you read the quote? nearly 45 percent of workers in our country who make $10.10 an hour or less have at least some college or a college degree. Nearly half of our workers are educated enough to be paid more yet they aren't. Why? Because the jobs aren't there and the spending power of minimum wage, which they are forced on, has gone down. Raise it so that it has the same spending power it had when it was started, then index it for inflation and our whole country will be better for it.

Forced? Really?

 

[alan1]

My niece got her degree in Environmental studies. Even with the disaster that is Fukishima she can't get a job in her field. She had to go back to school and get a degree in pharmacology and she still doesn't make much more than minimum wage and she has $thousands in college loans.

Well, since we want to act like personal anecdotes are important.........
My youngest daughter has merely a high school education, thus no college debt, and is making $48k a year working for an insurance company (after leaving the bank). She's 24 years old.
Yer niece sounds kind of dumb if she has two degrees and still works for crap wages. Maybe she should sue the college for educational malpractice.

 

[Againsheila]

A child of 13 years does real good know the difference between a dangerous and safe workplace. They are not stupid, but I do still oppose child labor strongly.

I'm not entirely opposed to 14 year olds working as long as the job is safe. 14 year olds are currently allowed to work certain jobs in my state and I don't see a problem with that.

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14 year olds working should only be working or helping out by their own choices in which is to hang out with mom or dad while they are working at home or on the family farms, and this in so that they may learn something about work or working from their moms or dads in that way, but the age should be at 16 to work for another, and it should be for part time work only while going to school or part time during the summer time maybe. 18 should be when a young person get's their first full time job as it has always been in the past to my understanding of these things.

When I was 12, I started working in the berry fields, the only job available to people under 16. When my sister was 10, she started babysitting, by the time I was 10, that was considered illegal. I'm not so sure we shouldn't have our children working, as long as the environment is safe Let them go back to picking berries in the field, nothing dangerous about that, and we can send the illegals packing.

 

[alan1]

Starting pay is 11.50 an hour. And they dont hire dumbfucks and slackers. Which eliminates most low wage workers.
The thing you have to remember is not all workers are willing to make a commitment to a job. Those that are succeed,whether they work at Costco,Micky D's. Or a fortune 500 company.

$11.50 an hour is slightly less than $24k a year.
Cute picture, but way less in salary than the caption in it.
Dummies probably believe the caption.

 

[Againsheila]

Why would they accept the wage if it did not better their situation? Are they better off making a small amount or no amount at all?

Not everyone is in a position of being able to be picky. Still, that's no reason to take advantage of people.

You are taking advantage of people, when you go to work in expectation of agreed upon payment.

You are talking advantage of people, when you have someone fix your car for an agreed upon payment.

When you go to a cheaper store to buy food, when you replace your TV with a bigger better model, when you buy that triple latte from Starbucks, you are taking advantage of people who are offering a service or product you want.

Why is it when the employer takes advantage of people who want jobs, that's bad, when when it's you taking the products and services those jobs provide, that's good?

I don't think you know the definition of "taking advantage."

 

[Againsheila]

Starting pay is 11.50 an hour. And they dont hire dumbfucks and slackers. Which eliminates most low wage workers.
The thing you have to remember is not all workers are willing to make a commitment to a job. Those that are succeed,whether they work at Costco,Micky D's. Or a fortune 500 company.

$11.50 an hour is slightly less than $24k a year.
Cute picture, but way less in salary than the caption in it.
Dummies probably believe the caption.

I'm sure that's an average, which means some workers are paid more and some are paid less. Even so, they start at far better than what Walmart starts it's employees at and I haven't seen an unhappy Costco employee yet. They are always cheerful and ready to help. You need help in Walmart you have to practically tackle someone, and that's if you can find them. Yes, I buy Velcro fasten shoes at Walmart for my son who is 27 and can't tie his own shoes.

 

[alan1]

Many 'mom and pop' stores earn a lot more than you might think.

I own a mom and pop "store" My wife and I have yet to draw a dime of salary.

Yes. Some earn a comfortable living, but most just get by. Asking them to give their employees a 50% raise would put a great many out of business. Would you rather make $7 or $0?

If I couldn't pay my employes a decent wage, I shouldn't be in business.

You don't own a business.
You work at McDonalds.
If you don't like your wage, then quit.
Feel free to start your own burger business, pay your employees a "decent wage" and drive McDonalds out of business with your better business model.
Nobody is stopping you.

 

[SAYIT]

Wrong. If you start a business and want to hire someone to help you out, you either pay them a decent wage, or do the work yourself. If you can't afford to pay someone to help you out, your business sucks. If you can't do the extra work yourself, your business sucks and you need to go back to the drawing board.

No way do you have the right to exploit people just because you are too stupid to work out how to make your business flourish.

How is it exploiting someone if they are willing to accept the wage you offer? They aren't any worse off than they were before you created the job are they?

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In this economy, they are forced to take whatever jobs they can, it's slavery almost at it's worst. It means you have to work for starvation wages...

Please, please stop the incessant socialist whining! You're making my eyes bleed.
Have some compassion!

 

[alan1]

You know, once upon a time, with a college education, you could get a job practically anywhere, and it didn't matter what your degree was, as long as you had one. Not so today. No, we've shipped our well paying jobs overseas and just to make it worse, we've brought in guest workers and illegals to take our jobs here and keep our wages low.

And yet you want our lowest wages to go up again. What was it again that caused the jobs to ship overseas? The low price of labor here right? Oh wait....

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Nice try, but changes in our corporate laws as well as tax incentives sent our jobs overseas.

Move overseas and take your jobs back.

 

[alan1]

Wrong. If you start a business and want to hire someone to help you out, you either pay them a decent wage, or do the work yourself. If you can't afford to pay someone to help you out, your business sucks. If you can't do the extra work yourself, your business sucks and you need to go back to the drawing board.

No way do you have the right to exploit people just because you are too stupid to work out how to make your business flourish.

You work at McDonalds.
Are you being exploited?
Or are you to stupid to find a better job/own a McDonalds franchise.