Thoughts on the CDC hiding their 2.4 million defensive gun use research...

[JakeStarkey]

Kleck, no matter how many assertions to the contrary, was rejected forever years ago.

 

[2aguy]

Kleck, no matter how many assertions to the contrary, was rejected forever years ago.

By anti gunners who want to ban guns.....so excuse us if we think your points are stupid...considering his isn't the only study....and the Department of Justice and the CDC both have numbers in the millions.....both the CDC research from the 1990s and the research commissioned by obama in 2013....

you guys focus on him so you can ignore all the other studies.....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*****************************************
If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

 

[JakeStarkey]

Divide the number by the days of the year.

You get 6,675 incidents per hour per day per week per year.

Sure, 2aguy, sure.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I put out facts, the truth and the reality.....why do you guys always lie?

No you don't - It's all NRA propaganda. When are you going to realize that most of the Progressives in USMB are gun owners?

We simply would like to see a few rational RULES and we don't believe anyone is out to grab 'em.

Stop being afraid - If you want to be buried with your arsenal, it'll still be around when you die.

When are YOU going to realize that we're on to you, and well aware that most progressives on USMB are elitist dolts, who are happy to exercise their own rights while being HORRIFIED at the idea that "peons" might dare to lay claim to the same rights?

You simply would like to see "a few rational rules" that keep the riffraff from pretending to be as good as you are.

Stop being conceited. You're not even remotely superior to the "gun nuts" you fear.

 

[2aguy]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

Its mainly because of these contradictions. NCVS study showed only 65,000 defensive gun uses.

Except that the NCVS study a) does not have studying defensive gun use as its primary purpose, and b) therefore has numerous flaws in that regard.

Yep.......

The Daily Kos on why the NCVS is wrong...
Defensive Gun Use Part III - The National Crime Victimization Study

The disadvantages of this study design are:
1) the study is not specifically designed to measure DGUs;

2) the study does not track every type of crime;

3) the study does not ask every interviewee about episodes of DGU;

4) interviewees are not specifically asked about defending themselves with a gun;

5) follow-up studies have demonstrated that the incidence of assault (and especially assaults by relatives and non-strangers) in the NCVS is under-reported, and if crime is under-reported then so too will DGUs be under-reported;

6) respondents’ anonymity is not preserved, and some interviewees may therefore feel wary or unwilling to discuss gun use with federal government employees.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The American people are on to the gun nuts, and a severe reckoning is coming for said gun nuts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Moron....those are actual studies cited by the gun site.......actual research.....from both private and public research groups....

The fact that you guys can't discuss this issue without lying tells us everything we need to know about the anti gun movement...it isn't about truth or facts...you just hate guns in such an irrational way you will lie, cheat and do whatever you have to to push your agenda...

Tell us the CDC and the Department of Justice are part of your conspiracy theory...

Lol - There is NO such thing as an "actual study cited by a gun site"

You're funny though - do keep it up!

I just heard "I refuse to believe that anyone who disagrees with me could have anything to say." Was that what you meant to say?

 

[2aguy]

Divide the number by the days of the year.

You get 6,675 incidents per hour per day per week per year.

Sure, 2aguy, sure.

320 million people carrying over 17 million guns......yep.....as 17 gun self defense studies show......over 42 years, both government and private research groups....with the 3 most famous studies done by anti gun researchers...

 

[2aguy]

The American people are on to the gun nuts, and a severe reckoning is coming for said gun nuts.

You better alert President Hilary....

Your mistake was calling for confiscating all semi automatic weapons and repealing the 2nd Amendment just before the midterms....genius move....

 

[JakeStarkey]

 

[Cecilie1200]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

funny how it's never mentioned that the cdc's gun-related research budget was zeroed out in 1996 at the *request* of the nra, and now they're whining about the research not being publicized twenty years later

Dickey Amendment - Wikipedia



cry me a river

You're sorta neglecting to mention a few things there.

The amendment was introduced after lobbying by the National Rifle Association in response to their perceived bias in a 1993 study by Arthur Kellermann that found that guns in the home were associated with an increased risk of homicide in the home, as well as other CDC funded studies and efforts.[2][4] Mark L. Rosenberg, the former director of the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, has described this amendment as "a shot fired across the bow" at CDC researchers who wanted to research gun violence.[5] In a 2012 op-ed, Dickey and Rosenberg argued that the CDC should be able to research gun violence,[6] and Dickey has since said that he regrets his role in stopping the CDC from researching gun violence,[7] saying he simply didn't want to "let any of those dollars go to gun control advocacy."[8]

In other words, the NRA was - and is - concerned about tax money going to biased research. Justifiably so, in my never-humble opinion, given that the CDC was apparently burying evidence that didn't fit the bias.

 

[del]

what part of *perceived* flummoxes you?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I put out facts, the truth and the reality.....why do you guys always lie?

No you don't - It's all NRA propaganda. When are you going to realize that most of the Progressives in USMB are gun owners?

We simply would like to see a few rational RULES and we don't believe anyone is out to grab 'em.

Stop being afraid - If you want to be buried with your arsenal, it'll still be around when you die.

And when will you realize that most of the gun control advocates not only don’t own guns, but in fact despise them and ultimately fear them?

Do you think David Hogg or his buddies own a gun?

Millennials and younger generations are decidedly against gun ownership. There is no fearmongering going on here.

Although my older son, who is a millennial, came to me the other day and said he'd like to get his own gun, but felt he should talk to me first, since he lives in my house.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

So basically, because you made a bunch of assumptions based on your own interpretation of stats and your "generosity", that's supposed to mean . . . what to the rest of us?

 

[Cecilie1200]

They are not.

The number, if it is accurate (imo, it's not) is attributable to the cops pulling guns 275 times every hour.

I don't see that as "defensive gun use".

I suspect that it goes something like this:

Rwnj sees scary looking guy walking down the street.

Walks past scary guy without making eye contact.

Thinks "good thing I had my pistol on me, no telling what might have happened".

Viola! Defensive gun use number one for the day!

Viola? What the hell do musical instruments have to do with anything?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

Not if you see where Kleck got the number. One of the biggest survey sample was criminals, convicts. Kleck went to prisons and interviewed the convicts and asked them how often the presence of a gun, perceived, suspected, or actually seen, caused them to change their plans.

For muggers, it was far more often, especially in states where concealed carry was more prevalent. For car hackers, again, it was more prevalent, in the same states.

In Georgia, roughly speaking, one in ten residents are licensed to carry concealed. That means that the criminal has a roughly ten percent chance of coming across someone who is legally allowed to be carrying a gun. One in ten victims is liable to be armed.

Kleck took the discrimination numbers from the criminals, and added it to the people who said they had reached for a gun, and someone had fled. And the times that people actually pulled it, and the people who fired.

We often hear that we should ban guns if it can save just one life. Or we should do some other thing even if it can only save one life. We certainly have done a lot more, for a few people every year haven’t we? Airbags. We had a massive airbag recall because a handful of people had died over several years because of defective airbags.

But what about the other way around? Can we ban guns if those guns save just one life? If as Kleck said that the suspected presence of a gun deterred a rapist from attacking some woman, can we dare ban the guns?

We all know that airbags can kill people. Especially smaller children, or older frail people. The sudden explosive inflation is rather violent. Yet, we do not ban airbags. We don’t even decide to leave it up to the customer, letting him or her decide if he wants one. Because the probability is that the airbag is more likely to save a life, than end it.

If you accept how Kleck got his numbers as reasonably valid, and if rapists decide not to attack a woman even once. Not even all the rapists, but lets say half of the rapists decide to not attack a woman who may have a gun once per year, then haven’t you prevented a rape each time that decision is made?

We tell women to fight back. To use pepper spray, to scream for help, to avoid situations where they are alone, and vulnerable. We’ve had the Rape Whistle, the air horn, and all the other silly shit. But lets be honest, you are going to be in those situations sooner or later this year ladies. You are going to have a situation where you are approaching a car at night, when the lighting is not good. Or when you are approaching your door without being able to scan the area, or are home alone when someone is creeping around outside.

Women go to self defense classes to learn how to fight. Women go to awareness classes to learn how to spot dangerous situations and areas. Men are asked to escort the women from time to time. At least they were when I was younger.

Kleck argued that after talking to those rapists in prison, a goodly number were prevented not by rape whistles, or air horns, or pepper spray. A goodly number were prevented when the rapist looked at the women, or the area, and decided that someone might have a gun, and the Rapist moved on. Perhaps he picked someone else perhaps not.

The same is true of robberies, assaults, and the rest according to Kleck.

But that is an interesting standard isn’t it? Let’s apply it to immunizations. Can you prove that your child is going to be exposed to those diseases? Can you prove that my child is going to be exposed to the diseases? No, of course you can’t. But we know that those diseases exist, and it is possible, so we immunize to prevent the disease. Every year people go out and get the Flu Vaccine. The Flu shows up anyway. The next year, everyone is out getting it again. It might not protect you, and it might only make the flu less severe in your case, or the vaccine might be a bad match. But we still line up and get our shots don’t we?

How many cases of Flu does the vaccine prevent? But it prevents some, so we get them.

So how many rapes, robberies, assaults, and thefts do guns prevent. I don’t know. We know they prevent some. The criminals told us that much through Kleck. Kleck used an extrapolation to come up with a number. Perhaps he’s right. Perhaps he’s wrong, and it only prevents a million a year. But are we comfortable deciding that only the guns that are used to kill someone in self defense are to be counted? How about the homeowner who is seen through the windows walking through her house with a shotgun after hearing a noise and it frightens the criminals away?

I don’t deny that people can and do abuse the weapon. I don’t deny that people abuse pain medications. I don’t want to ban pain meds, and don’t support it. Because there are lots of people who really NEED that medication for severe pain. Is addiction a problem? Yes. Is overdosing a problem? Yes. Is pain a problem? You bet your ass it is.

I am willing to accept extrapolated numbers. We accept them in the number of women who were raped, even though that number is higher than actually reported rapes. I am willing to accept that some women do not come forward to file a report, for any number of reasons. I am willing to accept a lot of extrapolated numbers, including police misconduct. A survey showed that cops were lying in roughly one case out of five every day. The survey was conducted of lawyers and judges. People who deal with the courts every day in other words. Perhaps it is that often, perhaps not. We know it is happening, and we know that every single lie told by cops is not caught. But those who argue that police misconduct is not a real issue only want to admit the convictions as proof of wrongdoing. Convictions, not charges, not complaints.

That is like saying that the only murders that happened are ones where the baddie is convicted. Or like arguing that only the rapes that result in a conviction should be counted. We would never stand for that would we?

So how many times are guns used defensively? I don’t know. I don’t know how many times a day a criminal decides not to rob a man, or woman, because they might be armed. I don’t know how many times a woman isn’t raped because she might have a gun. I don’t know how many times a carjacking doesn’t happen because the owner of the car looks like he might be armed. I don’t know how many times someone pulls their pistol and then doesn’t report it because the baddie flees and they didn’t get a good look and don’t want to deal with the cops so they don’t report it. I don’t even know how many rapes happen every year, no one does, because all of them are not reported. I do believe that the total number is larger than the actual reports. I just don’t know how much larger.

None of which addresses my point. If guns are used defensively 2.4 million times a year where are the bad guys with bullet holes?

None of which addresses MY point: when did WE become responsible for YOUR assumptions, and who died and left YOU in charge of setting discussion parameters?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Center for DISEASE Control

Investigating guns......
Not investigating transgender.....

One is a guaranteed right the other is a debilitating mental disorder.

Hmmmm

Interesting thought. Being who you want to be is definitely a right, but I never thought of gun ownership as a mental disorder before.

"Being who you want to be" is NOT a right. I want to be Wonder Woman, but for some reason, I just can't find that magic lasso.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

Not if you see where Kleck got the number. One of the biggest survey sample was criminals, convicts. Kleck went to prisons and interviewed the convicts and asked them how often the presence of a gun, perceived, suspected, or actually seen, caused them to change their plans.

For muggers, it was far more often, especially in states where concealed carry was more prevalent. For car hackers, again, it was more prevalent, in the same states.

In Georgia, roughly speaking, one in ten residents are licensed to carry concealed. That means that the criminal has a roughly ten percent chance of coming across someone who is legally allowed to be carrying a gun. One in ten victims is liable to be armed.

Kleck took the discrimination numbers from the criminals, and added it to the people who said they had reached for a gun, and someone had fled. And the times that people actually pulled it, and the people who fired.

We often hear that we should ban guns if it can save just one life. Or we should do some other thing even if it can only save one life. We certainly have done a lot more, for a few people every year haven’t we? Airbags. We had a massive airbag recall because a handful of people had died over several years because of defective airbags.

But what about the other way around? Can we ban guns if those guns save just one life? If as Kleck said that the suspected presence of a gun deterred a rapist from attacking some woman, can we dare ban the guns?

We all know that airbags can kill people. Especially smaller children, or older frail people. The sudden explosive inflation is rather violent. Yet, we do not ban airbags. We don’t even decide to leave it up to the customer, letting him or her decide if he wants one. Because the probability is that the airbag is more likely to save a life, than end it.

If you accept how Kleck got his numbers as reasonably valid, and if rapists decide not to attack a woman even once. Not even all the rapists, but lets say half of the rapists decide to not attack a woman who may have a gun once per year, then haven’t you prevented a rape each time that decision is made?

We tell women to fight back. To use pepper spray, to scream for help, to avoid situations where they are alone, and vulnerable. We’ve had the Rape Whistle, the air horn, and all the other silly shit. But lets be honest, you are going to be in those situations sooner or later this year ladies. You are going to have a situation where you are approaching a car at night, when the lighting is not good. Or when you are approaching your door without being able to scan the area, or are home alone when someone is creeping around outside.

Women go to self defense classes to learn how to fight. Women go to awareness classes to learn how to spot dangerous situations and areas. Men are asked to escort the women from time to time. At least they were when I was younger.

Kleck argued that after talking to those rapists in prison, a goodly number were prevented not by rape whistles, or air horns, or pepper spray. A goodly number were prevented when the rapist looked at the women, or the area, and decided that someone might have a gun, and the Rapist moved on. Perhaps he picked someone else perhaps not.

The same is true of robberies, assaults, and the rest according to Kleck.

But that is an interesting standard isn’t it? Let’s apply it to immunizations. Can you prove that your child is going to be exposed to those diseases? Can you prove that my child is going to be exposed to the diseases? No, of course you can’t. But we know that those diseases exist, and it is possible, so we immunize to prevent the disease. Every year people go out and get the Flu Vaccine. The Flu shows up anyway. The next year, everyone is out getting it again. It might not protect you, and it might only make the flu less severe in your case, or the vaccine might be a bad match. But we still line up and get our shots don’t we?

How many cases of Flu does the vaccine prevent? But it prevents some, so we get them.

So how many rapes, robberies, assaults, and thefts do guns prevent. I don’t know. We know they prevent some. The criminals told us that much through Kleck. Kleck used an extrapolation to come up with a number. Perhaps he’s right. Perhaps he’s wrong, and it only prevents a million a year. But are we comfortable deciding that only the guns that are used to kill someone in self defense are to be counted? How about the homeowner who is seen through the windows walking through her house with a shotgun after hearing a noise and it frightens the criminals away?

I don’t deny that people can and do abuse the weapon. I don’t deny that people abuse pain medications. I don’t want to ban pain meds, and don’t support it. Because there are lots of people who really NEED that medication for severe pain. Is addiction a problem? Yes. Is overdosing a problem? Yes. Is pain a problem? You bet your ass it is.

I am willing to accept extrapolated numbers. We accept them in the number of women who were raped, even though that number is higher than actually reported rapes. I am willing to accept that some women do not come forward to file a report, for any number of reasons. I am willing to accept a lot of extrapolated numbers, including police misconduct. A survey showed that cops were lying in roughly one case out of five every day. The survey was conducted of lawyers and judges. People who deal with the courts every day in other words. Perhaps it is that often, perhaps not. We know it is happening, and we know that every single lie told by cops is not caught. But those who argue that police misconduct is not a real issue only want to admit the convictions as proof of wrongdoing. Convictions, not charges, not complaints.

That is like saying that the only murders that happened are ones where the baddie is convicted. Or like arguing that only the rapes that result in a conviction should be counted. We would never stand for that would we?

So how many times are guns used defensively? I don’t know. I don’t know how many times a day a criminal decides not to rob a man, or woman, because they might be armed. I don’t know how many times a woman isn’t raped because she might have a gun. I don’t know how many times a carjacking doesn’t happen because the owner of the car looks like he might be armed. I don’t know how many times someone pulls their pistol and then doesn’t report it because the baddie flees and they didn’t get a good look and don’t want to deal with the cops so they don’t report it. I don’t even know how many rapes happen every year, no one does, because all of them are not reported. I do believe that the total number is larger than the actual reports. I just don’t know how much larger.

Another point:. Kleck has been thoroughly discredited as a researcher. Flawed methodology and lack of due dilligence are just a couple of the problems found in his papers.

Another point: saying, "Discredited! Discredited! Discredited!" doesn't actually constitute discrediting anything.

 

[westwall]

Here we have a look at the CDC hiding the results of 3 years of research into defensive gun use......the author points out that Dr. Kleck had to dig out the information from the CDC

GUN WATCH: CDC Failed to Report Strong Evidence of Defensive Gun Uses

The paragraph above does not rule out the surveys done by the CDC. It says that "more than 19 national surveys" not "19 national surveys". Were the authors aware of the CDC surveys done in 1996, 1997, and 1998, that essentially confirmed the estimates made by Kleck and Gertz in the 1995 paper?

The timing and size of the surveys done by the CDC is fascinating. They were done immediately after Kleck and Gertz published their paper. There were three of them. The one in 1996 was the largest ever done. 5,884 people were asked the DGU question. The total number of people asked in the three surveys done by the CDC was 12,870. All were asked the same question. It is as if a single very large survey was done, over three years. Kleck and Gertz' survey asked their DGU questions of 4,977 people.

Kleck goes into considerable detail about how his survey, done in 1993 (published in 1995) differs from the CDC survey. For example, in the CDC survey, only those people who admitted to having a gun in the home were asked the DGU question.
=======

Having read the Kleck and Gertz paper, I often wished that someone would do another survey, to broaden the sample, to provide more data.

Now we find the CDC did three such surveys. All of them validated the Kleck and Gertz survey. One large survey, such as the one by Kleck and Gertz, is indicative. Four of them show scientific replication and add to certainty. We were never told of the results of the confirming surveys done by the CDC.

Gary Kleck, as a scientist, a Democrat, and a proponent of a number of gun control measures, is careful not to cast aspersions on the CDC. He does not accuse anyone of malfeasance. He notes the surveys were done during the Clinton administration, and these findings would have worked against the gun control agenda of the administration. Someone at the CDC made the decision not to publish these results.

Kleck, while doing research, happened to come across the DGU question in a historical CDC survey, online, 21 years after the CDC surveys had been completed.

He was intrigued, and was able to find the original surveys done in 1996, 1997, 1998, and all the results.

It has to be gratifying to Dr. Kleck, to see his results validated after more than two decades. It may be infuriating to know these results were available from 1997 to 1999, and were never made public.

Progressives need and want gun control. Until that is accomplished they can't engage in their fantasized pogroms. And, to do that they will lie, cheat, and of course hide data that refutes their lies.

In other words this is to be expected.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Has anyone here ever thought this ridiculous 2.4 million a year figure through?

Do you realize that means that over 275 times every hour of every day someone uses a gun to defend themselves.

Now lets be very generous here and say that 90% of the time just showing the gun is enough. I personally think that's nonsense, there is no way 9 out of 10 armed desperate people run from a gun but like I said, I'm being generous.

That's 27+ shooting victims an hour, every hour, all day long. 650 people showing up at emergency rooms with unexplained holes in them every day.

250,000 extra gunshot victims a year.

Where are they?

All of this actual research says you are wrong.....after Dr. Kleck did his study, bill clinton ordered the Department of Justice to find anti gunners to do their own study to disprove Kleck, and now we found out he did the same thing at the CDC.....and their numbers? 1.5 million defensive gun uses from the Department of Justice study and 2.4 million by the CDC....all in an attempt to refute Kleck's number...and then, you have all the other research....

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)

CDC...1996-1998... 2.46 million each of those years.( no cops, no military)

Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million

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Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


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Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

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If you take the studies from that Kleck cites in his paper, 16 of them....and you only average the ones that exclude military and police shootings..the average becomes 2 million...I use those studies because I have the details on them...and they are still 10 studies (including Kleck's)....

Lol, so kleck, in his infinite wisdom, thinks people lied to the feds because they were afraid of them? Even though defending yourself is perfectly legal?

Lame excuse.

"Defending yourself is perfectly legal". Uh huh. Never mind that, at the time of Kleck's original study, it was illegal to carry a weapon in numerous places in the country, so admitting to a defensive gun use was the same as admitting you had been illegally carrying a weapon.

Forgetting your own treasured gun bans? Lame excuse.