Time to cut benefits for veterans? Washington Post writer says yes

[healthmyths]

I?m an Army veteran, and my benefits are too generous - The Washington Post

This article is by a former Army Lt Col who says military benefits are far too generous. His arguments:

He says that half the military never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, and of those that did, a huge chunk never saw combat and/or aren't combat troops. In HIS words...he says being a police officer in the US is more dangerous than most military occupations.

He says a person can join at 18, and retire at 38, with a decent check and benefits for life. Even if you never left US soil.


Anyway, you can read the whole article for what it is. And the right wing Washington Post gladly put this piece out there. I had breakfast at my usual spot this morning (the old Alex's on Coleman Blvd in Charleston, where GOP candidates like Gingrich, Graham, Sanford, Santorum, and Perry all make a point to stop at as a local iconic spot)......and the conservative Post and Courier ran this op-ed today.

And they folks at the breakfast bar were all talking about it. Mostly a conservative crowd. And...sadly, they were saying "Well, he's right, we cant afford this anymore".


Military folks....I told you. I told you 3 years ago that it was a matter of time before the right wing would take its fiscal anger and turn it towards you guys. And...slowly but surely...here it comes.

Curious ... will these American soldiers ALL covered with benefits for life including health ... are they counted as part of the "INSURED" Americans??
Because we've been told by this administration there are per Obama " 46 million uninsured Americans". Right? YOU Agree?

If so where do these American service people fit into the category of insured?
Since I believe these service people count under the Tricare category.

I am trying to get a grasp on how many Americans TRULY are INSURED. In FY 2010 there were 310,197,500 Americans.

• 149,464,500 - Employer plans... (Just to be clear.. these are people covered by their employers' plans...OK?)
• 66,390,642 - Medicaid ---- people covered by states' Medicaid..
• 49,435,610 - Medicare
• 15,771,400 - Private plans
• 7,900,000 - Veterans Administration health care system had nearly enrolled as of October 2008.
• http://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_department_of_veterans_affairs.pdf
• 8,300,000 - Tricare.. TriCare Information - Military Health Care
• ========

So the above total is 301,219,252 insured people covered under the above including the people you say GOP wants to get off the insured rolls!

Health Insurance Coverage of the Total Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation
That leaves 8,978,248 UNINSURED..... (Strange isn't it? Obama said there were 46 million uninsured???

Now the Census tells us 10 million of the 46 million UNINSURED are NOT citizens!!! wow!
The Census says of 36 million uninsured 14 million if it weren't for the inefficiencies of Obama administration would be covered under Medicaid BEFORE OBAMACARE!!!
So that leaves 22 million...
BUT 18 million under 34 making over $50,000 Don't want to use their employers' plans...
So that leaves 4 million!
So which is correct?

The point of my contribution is if Obama can't even figure out a simple number of "uninsured"... how in the hell can they administer 1/6th of the economy?

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

I?m an Army veteran, and my benefits are too generous - The Washington Post

This article is by a former Army Lt Col who says military benefits are far too generous. His arguments:

He says that half the military never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, and of those that did, a huge chunk never saw combat and/or aren't combat troops. In HIS words...he says being a police officer in the US is more dangerous than most military occupations.

He says a person can join at 18, and retire at 38, with a decent check and benefits for life. Even if you never left US soil.


Anyway, you can read the whole article for what it is. And the right wing Washington Post gladly put this piece out there. I had breakfast at my usual spot this morning (the old Alex's on Coleman Blvd in Charleston, where GOP candidates like Gingrich, Graham, Sanford, Santorum, and Perry all make a point to stop at as a local iconic spot)......and the conservative Post and Courier ran this op-ed today.

And they folks at the breakfast bar were all talking about it. Mostly a conservative crowd. And...sadly, they were saying "Well, he's right, we cant afford this anymore".


Military folks....I told you. I told you 3 years ago that it was a matter of time before the right wing would take its fiscal anger and turn it towards you guys. And...slowly but surely...here it comes.

You actually could have had a decent topic of discussion here until you ruined it with your fabricated partisan bullshit, but I suspected that would be the case once I got near the end. All you ever do anymore is create troll threads.

The "troll" part you don't like...is me having that decent discussion you wanted.

Republicans need to realize that our governments, at all levels, have people in them to do REAL work, hard work, dangerous work, and its done to protect innocent Americans from real threats. Whether its a gang member on the corner looking for a victim, or a terrorist camp overseas plotting attacks.

People are willing to risk their lives to do those dangerous jobs. BUT...they are regular folks, who want a good paycheck, and some stable assurance that once they get older, too old to be kicking in doors or getting into shootouts or marching through hell to engage the Taliban......that society will give them a decent retirement and healthcare.

Door kickers and soldiers and those like them...they don't do that shit into their 60's like a civilian can do at a desk job or in the corporate world. That's why we've always given military, police and firemen a great retirement plan and benefits.

Some, mostly hard right wingers, want to begin slashing those "sweetheart" government employee packages. They started with firefighters and cops. Now...they are flirting around with doing it to the military, and its SHAMEFUL.

Blah, blah, blah. You're nothing but a partisan hack and everyone here is on to your bullshit. Shut the fuck up.

 

[Stephanie]

You actually could have had a decent topic of discussion here until you ruined it with your fabricated partisan bullshit, but I suspected that would be the case once I got near the end. All you ever do anymore is create troll threads.

The "troll" part you don't like...is me having that decent discussion you wanted.

Republicans need to realize that our governments, at all levels, have people in them to do REAL work, hard work, dangerous work, and its done to protect innocent Americans from real threats. Whether its a gang member on the corner looking for a victim, or a terrorist camp overseas plotting attacks.

People are willing to risk their lives to do those dangerous jobs. BUT...they are regular folks, who want a good paycheck, and some stable assurance that once they get older, too old to be kicking in doors or getting into shootouts or marching through hell to engage the Taliban......that society will give them a decent retirement and healthcare.

Door kickers and soldiers and those like them...they don't do that shit into their 60's like a civilian can do at a desk job or in the corporate world. That's why we've always given military, police and firemen a great retirement plan and benefits.

Some, mostly hard right wingers, want to begin slashing those "sweetheart" government employee packages. They started with firefighters and cops. Now...they are flirting around with doing it to the military, and its SHAMEFUL.

Blah, blah, blah. You're nothing but a partisan hack and everyone here is on to your bullshit. Shut the fuck up.

Exactly, taking some opinion piece from the Compost to blame right wingers of wanting to take Vets benefits
that's lower than a SNAKE

who frikken describes a breakfast bar as used, mostly by conservatives...AND they have some cute little quote FROM ONE person and that makes ALL of the people who are Republican/conservatives WHO feels that way

they can't crawl lower to stir up hate against their fellow country men and women

 

[ogibillm]

And he's wrong. If that cook gave up 20 years of his life, separated from his family for months at a time, worked every shift, for rotten pay -- he deserves his pension and his benefits.

Period.

and the author doesn't argue that he doesn't deserve some pension and benefits in fact he the author of the article flat out says the pot should be sweetened for our volunteers. he just believes that the benefits should not be sacred cows, and that realistically adjustments, like a decrease of 1% in the increase of pension payments for retirees under a certain age is not a draconian crazy adjustment, or that small increases in contributions towards health care that is still drastically cheaper than anything anyone in the private sector is getting should not be out of the question when looking at ways to cut back on spending.

and i dont know if you knew this, but there are lots of people working in food prep that aren't exactly bringing home the bacon or working great hours. they also aren't getting housing allowances, free health care, or any of the other benefits, let alone the retirement.

Yeah. McDonald's doesn't send crew members to Afghanistan for 6 months, either.

and again, even the author of the piece isn't claiming that all benefits should be cut, just that we shouldn't be treating them as untouchable. realistically we may have to trim some of the amazing benefits. they'll still be great benefits, just not as unbelievable as they've been in the past.

 

[RandallFlagg]

and the author doesn't argue that he doesn't deserve some pension and benefits in fact he the author of the article flat out says the pot should be sweetened for our volunteers. he just believes that the benefits should not be sacred cows, and that realistically adjustments, like a decrease of 1% in the increase of pension payments for retirees under a certain age is not a draconian crazy adjustment, or that small increases in contributions towards health care that is still drastically cheaper than anything anyone in the private sector is getting should not be out of the question when looking at ways to cut back on spending.

and i dont know if you knew this, but there are lots of people working in food prep that aren't exactly bringing home the bacon or working great hours. they also aren't getting housing allowances, free health care, or any of the other benefits, let alone the retirement.

Yeah. McDonald's doesn't send crew members to Afghanistan for 6 months, either.

and again, even the author of the piece isn't claiming that all benefits should be cut, just that we shouldn't be treating them as untouchable. realistically we may have to trim some of the amazing benefits. they'll still be great benefits, just not as unbelievable as they've been in the past.

Hmm...OK. It's obvious that you were never man enough to put on the uniform of your country and go to war.

Tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Would you let me shoot you in the ass with a 7.62 or a 5.56 round in exchange for those "amazing" benefits? OR, would you exchange your youth and most of your middle age - being away from your family for years at a time - for those "amazing" benefits?

Tell me - just WHAT EXACTLY is "amazing" about those "benefits"? You seem to be an authority on government benefits - so please enlighten us - what makes them "amazing"?

 

[g5000]

Some years ago active duty were allowed to start participating in the Thrift Savings Plan, the fedgov's IRA. Participation is voluntary.

What is the Thrift Savings Plan (TSP)?

The Thrift Savings Plan (TSP) is a retirement savings and investment plan for Federal employees and members of the uniformed services, including the Ready Reserve. It was established by Congress in the Federal Employees' Retirement System Act of 1986 and offers the same types of savings and tax benefits that many private corporations offer their employees under 401(k) plans.

The TSP is a defined contribution plan, meaning that the retirement income you receive from your TSP account will depend on how much you (and your agency, if you are eligible to receive agency contributions) put into your account during your working years and the earnings accumulated over that time.​

Why Do Members Of The Military Not Invest In The Thrift Savings Plan?

 

[g5000]

Time to cut benefits to VA bureaucrats.

Along with the bureaucrats at FDA, HHS, HUD, DHS, TSA, and the rest of the Alphabet Soup Mafia.

the thing is they have seen cuts in their benefits, or at least raises in the amount they put towards things like their healthcare. they also don't get to retire at age 38 with full benefits either.

One can enlist at 18 and easily retire at 38.

I have never known an enlisted man to actually stop working after "retiring" from the military.

Not one.

 

[g5000]

Here's another reply:
LOU MILLER: Military retirees have earned their benefits | Letters to the Editor | The Sun Herald

I take exception to Tom Slear's June 11 column ("Time to reduce some military benefits").

I enlisted in October 1960 and retired from the U.S. Air Force in August 1984.

Mr. Slear wrote that combat troops are supported by the "logistical tail" and those support troops are located "in a well-guarded, reasonably comfortable bivouac area." I guess Mr. Slear is not aware support troops were also victims of suicide bombers or rockets in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Afghanistan. When they strike, suicide bombers and rockets do not differentiate between combat and support personnel.

I, too, find amusing the attitude that only combat troops are worth anything.

Hey, Johnny Combat -- you can't do your job...AT ALL...without support troops.

Already, there have been discussions in Washington calling for basic pay caps, reduction of commissaries and changes to the Tricare system -- all detrimental to military personnel, their families and retirees.

THIS is what the republicans and tea party in congress want to do.

I agree, if by "the republicans and tea party in congress" you mean "the White House".

White House: Raise Fees, Cut Pay, Housing, and Commissary : MOAA

The administration unveiled its FY 2015 defense budget request on March 4. The proposal calls for a $495.6 billion budget, a top line that is virtually unchanged from the past two years.

--

The budget includes cuts to military compensation and healthcare benefits, a 20 percent cut in headquarters operating budgets, a Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) round in FY 2017, and $159.3 billion in modernization and recapitalization of equipment and facilities.​

That's not the GOP and the TEA Party -- that's Obama wanting to cut pay and benefits. After all, the money to give all those new illegals free shit has to come from somewhere, right?

Paul Ryan has been on the leading edge of cutting military pay and benefits.

 

[g5000]

Time to cut benefits to VA bureaucrats.

Along with the bureaucrats at FDA, HHS, HUD, DHS, TSA, and the rest of the Alphabet Soup Mafia.

the thing is they have seen cuts in their benefits, or at least raises in the amount they put towards things like their healthcare. they also don't get to retire at age 38 with full benefits either.

Not enough.

Let them save and invest like the rest of us. No more pensions and bennies for life.

They are servants, not our masters.

Earn and save like the rest of us.


Okay, you have a choice of taking a corporate job with a 401k or a military job with a 401k and shitty pay and long deployments and a good chance of getting shot at.

What is the incentive of taking the military job except for those who like killing darkies?

 

[RandallFlagg]

the thing is they have seen cuts in their benefits, or at least raises in the amount they put towards things like their healthcare. they also don't get to retire at age 38 with full benefits either.

One can enlist at 18 and easily retire at 38.

I have never known an enlisted man to actually stop working after "retiring" from the military.

Not one.

You and I actually agree here. After the Army, I retired from ANOTHER career in civilian life. (GASP!) I get 2 pensions.......Oh the humanity!!

 

[g5000]

Seems like I've been around this bush before.
I was drafted. Went into the Army being paid less than $80/month. Sent to Vietnam where I was "awarded" hazardous duty (combat) pay of an additional $65/month (waay less than I have to pay the government these days if I choose to live dangerously by not fastening my seatbelt). Was discharged having been rode hard and put up wet (and have never fully recovered from same) to find that my lovely young bride and new baby had gotten tired of waiting for me. I don't qualify for retirement.
The good LTC is not the first I have run into who is an idiot.
You get what you pay for. What is your freedom worth?

The Thrift Savings Plan was created for guys like you who did not serve a full 20. It is a 401k-style plan so that if you only served for four years, for example, you would have something to show for it.

 

[g5000]

and the author doesn't argue that he doesn't deserve some pension and benefits in fact he the author of the article flat out says the pot should be sweetened for our volunteers. he just believes that the benefits should not be sacred cows, and that realistically adjustments, like a decrease of 1% in the increase of pension payments for retirees under a certain age is not a draconian crazy adjustment, or that small increases in contributions towards health care that is still drastically cheaper than anything anyone in the private sector is getting should not be out of the question when looking at ways to cut back on spending.

and i dont know if you knew this, but there are lots of people working in food prep that aren't exactly bringing home the bacon or working great hours. they also aren't getting housing allowances, free health care, or any of the other benefits, let alone the retirement.

Yeah. McDonald's doesn't send crew members to Afghanistan for 6 months, either.

and again, even the author of the piece isn't claiming that all benefits should be cut, just that we shouldn't be treating them as untouchable. realistically we may have to trim some of the amazing benefits. they'll still be great benefits, just not as unbelievable as they've been in the past.

I served on active duty for 20 years, with at least half that time spent at the pointy end of the spear, as we called it.

My retirement benefits have been getting trimmed ever since I retired. Every single promise made to us vets has already been broken. Now they want even more from us.

These cuts have been coming at us from all sides. Not just the left. And the right wing media has been peculiarly silent about the cuts that have been going on since before Obama.

Last year, I and millions of other vets were disenrolled from Tricare Prime by an act of Congress. Not a fucking word of outrage on Fox News about it. You know why? Because that was initiated by Paul Ryan, approved by the Republican House and the Democratic Senate, and then signed by Obama.

Since then, my medical bills have skyrocketed more than any ObamaCare victim. But total silence out of the right wing media about it.

 

[bendog]

It is easy for an O-5 to say retirement pay is too high.

I have heard the idea batted around to convert the military pension plan to be more like a 401k plan. What the tards who came up with that idea didn't think of is why would anyone join the military for shitty pay and shitty working conditions with long deployments away from home only to end up with a pension they could get in the civilian world, except with a smaller payout since they get paid for shit?

No one would enlist, especially now that a lot of the great training and experience you used to get is now all done by defense contractors.

True. But, I have the impression that the kids who got saddled with mult combat tours in Iraq and Afghan are not going to be long time military enlistees. Having matriculated out of high school at the tail end of Vietnam, I realize the guys who took ROTC and put in their 20 got a more than fair deal. Teachers and cops did not, so much. Now the kids who got chewed up by two potus's ... we can't do enough for them.

 

[regent]

Hoover did it correctly he waited for a period when different troubles emerged and then got tough on the veterans. I remember hearing of signs in the bars, Plese No Dogs Or Soldiers.

 

[ogibillm]

Yeah. McDonald's doesn't send crew members to Afghanistan for 6 months, either.

and again, even the author of the piece isn't claiming that all benefits should be cut, just that we shouldn't be treating them as untouchable. realistically we may have to trim some of the amazing benefits. they'll still be great benefits, just not as unbelievable as they've been in the past.

Hmm...OK. It's obvious that you were never man enough to put on the uniform of your country and go to war.

Tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Would you let me shoot you in the ass with a 7.62 or a 5.56 round in exchange for those "amazing" benefits? OR, would you exchange your youth and most of your middle age - being away from your family for years at a time - for those "amazing" benefits?

Tell me - just WHAT EXACTLY is "amazing" about those "benefits"? You seem to be an authority on government benefits - so please enlighten us - what makes them "amazing"?

you're right, i've never volunteered.

my wife has though, and i've seen her off on two deployments. I haven't seen much of her in June since she's been away at AT for most of it.

but then she's a relatively cheap soldier. her insurance is only taken care of while deployed. she only earns time towards full military retirement while she's on active duty orders. she's paid as a federal technician except for her drill weekends. we don't get to shop at a subsidized tax free px, or have our housing paid for.

so here's the thing - she's making all the sacrifice and putting in all the work of the active duty soldier, but she does not receive the same benefits. so when other professional soldiers want to start bitching about how they should receive full retirement benefits after putting their 20 years and how they can't afford to pay even a modicum more towards their health insurance, or accept that their pension will be raised by 1% less than it otherwise would be i don't have a lot of sympathy. there are plenty of soldiers out there doing the same job without the perks.

so again, i'm all for service incentives and perks. but they can't be treated as if they are untouchable. just like social security - the system is good in theory but it may have to be adjusted to the times.

 

[RandallFlagg]

and again, even the author of the piece isn't claiming that all benefits should be cut, just that we shouldn't be treating them as untouchable. realistically we may have to trim some of the amazing benefits. they'll still be great benefits, just not as unbelievable as they've been in the past.

Hmm...OK. It's obvious that you were never man enough to put on the uniform of your country and go to war.

Tell you what...I'll make a deal with you. Would you let me shoot you in the ass with a 7.62 or a 5.56 round in exchange for those "amazing" benefits? OR, would you exchange your youth and most of your middle age - being away from your family for years at a time - for those "amazing" benefits?

Tell me - just WHAT EXACTLY is "amazing" about those "benefits"? You seem to be an authority on government benefits - so please enlighten us - what makes them "amazing"?

you're right, i've never volunteered.

my wife has though, and i've seen her off on two deployments. I haven't seen much of her in June since she's been away at AT for most of it.

but then she's a relatively cheap soldier. her insurance is only taken care of while deployed. she only earns time towards full military retirement while she's on active duty orders. she's paid as a federal technician except for her drill weekends. we don't get to shop at a subsidized tax free px, or have our housing paid for.

so here's the thing - she's making all the sacrifice and putting in all the work of the active duty soldier, but she does not receive the same benefits. so when other professional soldiers want to start bitching about how they should receive full retirement benefits after putting their 20 years and how they can't afford to pay even a modicum more towards their health insurance, or accept that their pension will be raised by 1% less than it otherwise would be i don't have a lot of sympathy. there are plenty of soldiers out there doing the same job without the perks.

so again, i'm all for service incentives and perks. but they can't be treated as if they are untouchable. just like social security - the system is good in theory but it may have to be adjusted to the times.

So your Wife is in the Guard. I had subordinates in my civilian career that also served in the Guard and a couple actually retired from the Guard and receives a monthly pension. I readily admit that I know little about the Guard. I was RA.

Now, please, explain this idea of "untouchable" to me. Veterans benefits have been cut slowly, for the past 40 years. What are these "perks" that you seem to think that the military flaunts at you? Do you mean care at the VA??? Have you watched the news for the past 6 months?

Oh, I get it, you mean that we can fly (standby) on any military aircraft (providing there is a seat)? Trust me - that is no "perk". Oh....you must mean the commissary!!! We get to shop there and save 3-4 percent (maybe) on groceries.

How the hell does that equate to "untouchable"?


And frankly, as far as your Wife not getting those same "perks" that the other active duty soldiers, sailors, Airmen and Marines "receive" - tell your Wife to transition to Active Duty if it offends you so much - better yet, enlist. Find out for yourself just how "well" these men and women are treated on a daily basis. Not just during deployment or on the weekends...24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I?m an Army veteran, and my benefits are too generous - The Washington Post

This article is by a former Army Lt Col who says military benefits are far too generous. His arguments:

He says that half the military never deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, and of those that did, a huge chunk never saw combat and/or aren't combat troops. In HIS words...he says being a police officer in the US is more dangerous than most military occupations.

He says a person can join at 18, and retire at 38, with a decent check and benefits for life. Even if you never left US soil.


Anyway, you can read the whole article for what it is. And the right wing Washington Post gladly put this piece out there. I had breakfast at my usual spot this morning (the old Alex's on Coleman Blvd in Charleston, where GOP candidates like Gingrich, Graham, Sanford, Santorum, and Perry all make a point to stop at as a local iconic spot)......and the conservative Post and Courier ran this op-ed today.

And they folks at the breakfast bar were all talking about it. Mostly a conservative crowd. And...sadly, they were saying "Well, he's right, we cant afford this anymore".


Military folks....I told you. I told you 3 years ago that it was a matter of time before the right wing would take its fiscal anger and turn it towards you guys. And...slowly but surely...here it comes.

Yes, Washington Post, as Conservative as Jake Starkey

Bucs90 you continue to amaze us

 

[bucs90]

Yeah. McDonald's doesn't send crew members to Afghanistan for 6 months, either.

and again, even the author of the piece isn't claiming that all benefits should be cut, just that we shouldn't be treating them as untouchable. realistically we may have to trim some of the amazing benefits. they'll still be great benefits, just not as unbelievable as they've been in the past.

I served on active duty for 20 years, with at least half that time spent at the pointy end of the spear, as we called it.

My retirement benefits have been getting trimmed ever since I retired. Every single promise made to us vets has already been broken. Now they want even more from us.

These cuts have been coming at us from all sides. Not just the left. And the right wing media has been peculiarly silent about the cuts that have been going on since before Obama.

Last year, I and millions of other vets were disenrolled from Tricare Prime by an act of Congress. Not a fucking word of outrage on Fox News about it. You know why? Because that was initiated by Paul Ryan, approved by the Republican House and the Democratic Senate, and then signed by Obama.

Since then, my medical bills have skyrocketed more than any ObamaCare victim. But total silence out of the right wing media about it.

Yep, and its a damn shame. Its why I stopped voting GOP. Local Republicans took aim at police benefits/pension over the last 5 years, just like Paul Ryan and his silent-but-determined friends in Congress who want to see military benefits cut.

Police officers have always thought the GOP would always be on their side. They aren't.

Sadly, and even more tragically, the GOP is slowly beginning to betray the military also.

As I said on this forum many times....I'm not a Democrat or a liberal. But after the betrayal that Republicans did to police officers......I'll be damned if I'll EVER vote for another Republican for the rest of my life.

And Paul Ryan is making those same betrayals to our vets. Fucking disgraceful.

 

[Peach]

It is easy for an O-5 to say retirement pay is too high.

I have heard the idea batted around to convert the military pension plan to be more like a 401k plan. What the tards who came up with that idea didn't think of is why would anyone join the military for shitty pay and shitty working conditions with long deployments away from home only to end up with a pension they could get in the civilian world, except with a smaller payout since they get paid for shit?

No one would enlist, especially now that a lot of the great training and experience you used to get is now all done by defense contractors.

Agreed, and of course the ever present risk of death & disfigurement. On duty military cannot sue the government either, unless gross negligence exists; not even Iraq qualifies for that.

 

[Howey]

the thing is they have seen cuts in their benefits, or at least raises in the amount they put towards things like their healthcare. they also don't get to retire at age 38 with full benefits either.

One can enlist at 18 and easily retire at 38.

I have never known an enlisted man to actually stop working after "retiring" from the military.

Not one.

That's true, but some do. The intelligent ones like me retire, work for the state, get the state retirement, then draw VA disability and SS.

Wicked tax free bucks!!