Too long ignored?

[Jon]

My ex worked for Westinghouse back in the '80s, repairing signals on railroad lines. I assume you guys know this is the preferred method of moving toxic waste, like nuclear rods? Those lines are in terrible condition.

A disaster or two is inevitable if we do not wake the fuck up.

Railroads are privately owned and operated. Are you suggesting the federal government should fund maintaining those railroads? Because I'm pretty sure Mr. Buffett has enough money to maintain his own investments.

 

[Charles_Main]

we've already heard this story, nearly two years ago when they passed the "unread" "emergency" stimulus funds to take care of the infrastructure and put people to work doing "shovel ready" jobs. we ain't falling for that shit a second time. get over it.

Any stimulus funds that went for shovel-ready infrastructure were a drop in the bucket. Just watch the fucking documentary, genius. This isn't a political issue.

The repairs may be desparately needed, but, seriously, the thieves in DC just spent a Trillion dollars to fix things and all they did was bribe their cronies and reward their sycophants.

How much more graft and corruption needs to go unchecked in this?

It would be nice if we had honest citizen Senators and Congressmen, but sadly, they are all venemous and corrupt jackels who live to steal and will will sell their daughters, wives and mothers into prostitution for a compaign contribution.

As long as we need to pass the repair money through the hands of those that just can't seem to function without a payoff, we're screwed.

Exactly why the Thieves in DC should not be the ones fixing roads and bridges.

I think we all agree our Roads and shit need a lot of work. That is not a political Issue. It is just the truth. The political Issue starts when Liberals start telling us how the Federal Government should spend Billions to fix it when State and local Governments should be dealing with. When we all know they will find ways to waste, steal and otherwise inefficiently use Most of every dollar we send them. They will reward contracts, and decide what gets fixed not based on what needs it the most, but on which Supporter needs rewarding, or which project will get them the most votes.

They will tell us how it will create Jobs. When the fact is all it will do is create temporary work for Union Construction Worker. It will not create any Private sector Growth, Which is the only thing that will get us out of this hole. They will use the condition of our roads and bridges to justify more massive Federal Spending on stuff the Federal Government should not be fucking around with. That I am getting real sick of.

I don't know about you guys but I have had just about enough of any Federal Spending on this BS. For the reasons listed above.

 

[uscitizen]

For a long time economic growth in the USA came with accompanying growth in infastructure.

Things have changes with much of our "growth" for the last decade or so being bogus and delivering very little in accompanying infrastructure.

I don't care what you may claim I am not convinced that trading stocks shakey mortgages, etc puts out very much infrastructure. However building a manufacturing plant, building a dam, putting in a pipeline, etc does.

 

[MaggieMae]

Because there already is a tried and tested formal process for handling infrastructure maintenance and development, and the problems we have in it come, as usual from our politicians.

Take sewers: cities/towns with sewer systems and treatment plants get their revenue for maintenance and upgrades from the customer base. They also get moneys from tap-on fees. They do not have to accumulate enough money to upgrade, they can leverage enough money to make those with a much smaller amount. But the EPA and state departments of environmental management properly get involved and force they when upgrading to do things they might not want to take the time of resources to do. It may mean abandoning an old plant and going further downstream an build a new one there. but this means building a larger intercepting main line than they ordinarily would think needed, and they just want to get on with it so they can encourage growth and property tax base again. This is a good process, and means all levels of government are involved.

But there are times and places where the local government officials can move the money that would be used to leverage the needed work to pet projects, and they let their plant deterioriate. Again they are forced to pay attention because their constitutents suffer from lack of growth and development, and new jobs fail to materialize for their children as they graduate from high school or college.

The process is self adjusting and regulating if left alone. It has developed over the past 150 years, and works well when not short circuited.

I happen to live between two incorporated population centers. The larger one sees the revenues from sewage treatment as a boondoggle to expand other unrelated city sponsored services; an ice skating arena, a new park, buying a piece of real-estate for some future government expansion of unknown purpose, or some other scheme that would be better left to private enterprise, or at least put off until the budget permits; though I doubt that land speculation has a place in city government...ever. But when these diversions take place the budget soars, and property taxes become unbearable to many. Then the citizens rise up, a new governing body moves in and undoes the harm if the harm hasn't been too great. This is self regulating.

The smaller incorporated population center resolved its sewage plant problems by a process of study, and application, and leveraged financing from the FHA, and has move on. They operate with targetted taxes and revenues from the public they serve. That's because the process is so close to the citizens, and they have an need and an opportunity to be involved, attend meetings, serve on commissions to resolve the deficiencies; the American way.

When the government sends vast sums of moneys out to the precincts it short circuits this regulating system, and sets up an expectation for the same in the future.

The engineers who are involved in this study: I wonder how gainfully employed their businesses are in the work they see as needing to be done. Why not offer their services to any number of local authorities which they identify as those being in need? If the situation is dangerous, or at a tipping point there are plenty of ways to move these critical projects into actualization, and the financing process is there without their usurping it. They seem to be politically motivated in this expose. I don't want to kill any politicians at all; I'd just like them to find another way to seek prominence. This type of movement, if it took hold, would waste vast sums of money, and interupt the process.

While I understand your argument about manipulating money that should go to the intended project but is spent frivolously in some cases, that still doesn't address the obvious deteriorization that everyone who's eyes are wide open can see every single day of his/her life, somewhere. I don't think anyone will ever solve the problem of waste in major construction projects. It also can happen by manipulative private contractors! Imagine that. Someday, when the right thread comes along, I'll tell my horror story about a condo in Houston I bought that was so inferior, the entire complex had to be torn down within five years, before it fell down.

A lot of infrastructure funding comes from issuing bonds at the local level, but it is still in most cases, a private contractor selected for the actual work. So, in essence, such projects are not completely controlled by manipulating politicians nor brought to the public's attention by biased documentaries.

I don't deny that there is always an oppportunity to do some good work on infrastructure. And you say any of us can look around and identify the deterioriation. Fine . . identify something in plain sight and call the responsible authority (water co, sewer co, highway dept) and ask them what the status of that identifiable problem is at the present moment. I would bet that it is already identified and in the process of a solution in a normal work cycle which protects public safety and investment.

Highway maintenance and construction are already folded into a tax/revenue targetted system. This is ideal. Money from the general fund is not used for these things, but instead taxes from the sale of gasoline is held in a trust fund for maintenance or new work. This is the case for both federal and state funding, with states proposing and leveraging federal money for projects they identify. To me this is ideal. Actually, as I've said it's the same for water and sewer; the customers pay for the systems maintenance. Extensions, surprisingly are paid for by developers, who work under city or town auspices and approvals, so no governemt money is used. Bridges are also covered by the highway trust fund.

Dams at ponds and lakes are oftentimes privately onwned and are definitely outside any system of funding for repair or maintenance that I am aware of, so there is a potential problem, with safety issues. Still there is authority for the state or other civil entity to cause inspections, and enforce compliance by the individuals involved.

Too often, our politicians demand earmarks from highway funds, unrelated to highway maintenance. In our own district right now an elevated (call it a bridge) roadway for a walking path is being constructed over a local residential street which really has no great amount of traffic, and less traffic than many other cross streets the "walking path" must cross. I know concrete work and this is a million dollar project, serving no really useful purpose. It's possible, likely really, this is the resuilt of a deal to get a vote for an earmark (Obama money?) that came from money that could've been properly spent. At least it won't be in the way. But how about wheelchair users who can't safely negotiate the grade up-slope or down slope. I assume they'll just leave the path and bi-pass this dangerous incline.

The system needs to be tigntened, not loosened. Inspector Generals can monitor extablished systems, but stuff like the "stimulus" money can be wasted, and once an Inspecto-General identifies waste . . . what the heck, it's already done, so who really cares.

Your problem with a condo in Houston came from a failure of enforcement of the building code. If inspections had been enforced along the way, none of that would've happened, because the project would've been red flagged until corrections were made to ensure proper construction methods. I understand that at least one of the major cities in Texas has a problem with zoning, and that could extend over to building compliance.

When a city like Houston refuses to pass zoning ordinances, then fine, but then the state fire marshal should enforce building standards and compliance. Clearly something happened there that shouldn't have. I'd suspect corruption between a contractor and a set of public officials.

While I agree that most local road/sewer/etc. problems are dealt with by using local and/or state taxes, often road systems intersect with US highways. Where I live, you can actually see improvement of a town road end where the US highway begins. Same with the Interstate. If you ever travel, say, north or south on I-95, you will notice abrupt differences in the road surfaces as you enter or exit states. Some states don't allocate enough in their own transportation funds; some move to tolls to pay for their share of maintenance.

Again, I don't see any of the needs to maintain our infrastructure as political in nature, and it needs to stop being treated as such. I really appreciate your intelligent contributions to the subject. If only we could jack up interest among some of the people who post here and treat the issue as a joke.

With respect to the Houston condo, as far as I know, the construction WAS inspected at each stage. How is one supposed to prove that inspection isn't done, when the responsible agency claims it was? I did a final walk-through with an inspector and was able to catch a few things, but who could know that after 3 months there would be such a problem with rainwater runoff seeping directly into the building instead of outside that the walls were like sponges? There was a final resolution by class action against the developer, but of course it took years.

 

[Samson]

Any stimulus funds that went for shovel-ready infrastructure were a drop in the bucket. Just watch the fucking documentary, genius. This isn't a political issue.

 

[MaggieMae]

Any more questions?

Well, I was really looking for some verification of this:

They were top of the line diamond plated chrome...the guys who unloaded the said a normal switch cost a thousand dollars each...these were $8500 each...bought with stimulus money.

But I trust you wouldn't make it up. Is there any debate that those presumably more expensive switches are/are not needed in order to guarantee they won't freeze up? If the purpose in the end is to generate more ridership, I'd say it's worth it. But I'm no expert on that subject.

 

[MaggieMae]

Vote out incumbents. Preferably those who run as Independents.

And, let's have term limits on these bastards. Limit the amount of time they have to become corrupt.

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

Right now, every Congresscritter spends over 50% of their time fundraising, in some manner. That means we get them working on our business less than half the time - on our dime.

How long until it takes up 75% of their time? 90%? When will they have time to do the legitimate business of the people who send them there?

You know what would incentivize them to spend more time actually working? Get the damned House and Senate live sessions off C-Span which will end the grandstanding.

 

[MaggieMae]

"The Crumbling of America" can be seen on The History Channel from 5PM to 7PM (edt) today.

This is a HUGE wakeup call.

America's infrastructure is collapsing. Tens of thousands of bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete. A third of the nation's highways are in poor or mediocre shape. Massively leaking water and sewage systems are creating health hazards and contaminating rivers and streams. Weakened and under-maintained levees and dams tower over communities and schools. And the power grid is increasingly maxed out, disrupting millions of lives and putting entire cities in the dark. The Crumbling of America explores these problems using expert interviews, on location shooting and computer generated animation to illustrate the kinds of infrastructure disasters that could be just around the bend.

The stimulus checks in the mail. With all that money the government borrowed every road bridge and government building should be up to date by now.

Not hardly. I see you didn't bother reading the cost analysis links I posted. Stimulus "checks" by the way do squat. Bush tried that in the summer of 08--$250.00 to everyone--what did you spend yours on, and did it improve your overall personal finances through September?

 

[midcan5]

As a long distance cyclist and a much shorten distance kayakist, it is just amazing the deterioration you see when you look close. But I often feel our approach is a band-aid approach and not a solid well thought out approach. The problem often is there are no alternate routes or paths, and citizens or local communities like the band-aid as it is faster and cheaper. I have been under bridges on my kayak that should be demolished instead of repaired but that cost would be exorbitant and an enormous inconvenience. One bridge in south Jersey is now closed and I have been on it and under it often and it is a joke. In the end we have to go back to public transportation, living close to work, bicycles, and just good sense.

Here's my solution, written a while ago but like all my ideas, a perfect one. http://www.usmessageboard.com/energy/56561-plowing-not-drilling.html



"The way people in democracies think of the government as something different from themselves is a real handicap. And, of course, sometimes the government confirms their opinion." Lewis Mumford

 

[MaggieMae]

Any stimulus funds that went for shovel-ready infrastructure were a drop in the bucket. Just watch the fucking documentary, genius. This isn't a political issue.

Perhaps I should have said it should NOT be a political issue. Better, assclown?

 

[Samson]

Any stimulus funds that went for shovel-ready infrastructure were a drop in the bucket. Just watch the fucking documentary, genius. This isn't a political issue.

Perhaps I should have said it should NOT be a political issue. Better, assclown?

We should all hold hands, and sing in perfect harmony.

 

[MaggieMae]

As a long distance cyclist and a much shorten distance kayakist, it is just amazing the deterioration you see when you look close. But I often feel our approach is a band-aid approach and not a solid well thought out approach. The problem often is there are no alternate routes or paths, and citizens or local communities like the band-aid as it is faster and cheaper. I have been under bridges on my kayak that should be demolished instead of repaired but that cost would be exorbitant and an enormous inconvenience. One bridge in south Jersey is now closed and I have been on it and under it often and it is a joke. In the end we have to go back to public transportation, living close to work, bicycles, and just good sense.

Here's my solution, written a while ago but like all my ideas, a perfect one. http://www.usmessageboard.com/energy/56561-plowing-not-drilling.html



"The way people in democracies think of the government as something different from themselves is a real handicap. And, of course, sometimes the government confirms their opinion." Lewis Mumford

Great idea, but how long would it take before Cargill and Monsanto laid dibs on the fresh farmlands? Bye bye small farmer incentives.

 

[MaggieMae]

So did anyone bother to actually watch the documentary? I can tell the ones who did not, so don't even bother responding with more of your not-so-clever comments.

 

[WillowTree]

Any stimulus funds that went for shovel-ready infrastructure were a drop in the bucket. Just watch the fucking documentary, genius. This isn't a political issue.

bullshit fuctard, that's exactly what it is. a political issue so youse demonRats can piss away another trillion dollars.

I'm sure you would feel exactly the same way even if you lived in NYC and experienced the main sewer lines all exploding simultaneously. You're full of shit anyway.

I duz eat regularly.

 

[California Girl]

And who would have to vote for term limits? The very people it would affect. Nope. Gotta get the money out of politics, period. Frankly, there ARE some good people of all political persuasion with noble intentions, but money money money now more than ever in history speaks much louder than words.

We need term limits.

And yea, we do need a far tighter control on the money.

And we really need to stop voting on party rather than people.

Let me get this straight:

Right-wingers and tea-baggers preach personal responsibility, yet want to create a new law to save them from having to actually practice personal responsibility?

And even though they SWEAR that they hate government because they say that it curtails their "freedom", they would happily turn to a government solution in an effort to VOLUNTARILY limit their freedoms?

Holy shit!

I am an individual, I do not represent any view other than my own. Clearly you are incapable of understanding simple facts like individual thought.

 

[rightwinger]

No politician gets re-elected on performing maintenance on bridges, tunnels and levys. For this reason we have allowed our infrastructure to deteriorate to dangerous levels

 

[Samson]

No politician gets re-elected on performing maintenance on bridges, tunnels and levys. For this reason we have allowed our infrastructure to deteriorate to dangerous levels

That's a very good point.

And a good example of why government cannot be trusted more than private enterprise.


Hey, why don't we give politicians the job of maintaining a healthcare system.....

I'm certain that couldn't be any harder than maintaining a bridge, right?

 

[uscitizen]

Correct neither private enterprise nor government can be trusted.

Everyone is out to get you.

RUN!

 

[Samson]

Correct neither private enterprise nor government can be trusted.

Everyone is out to get you.

RUN!

Now we know who built the fucking bridge.

 

[uscitizen]

Correct neither private enterprise nor government can be trusted.

Everyone is out to get you.

RUN!

Now we know who built the fucking bridge.

I am better at tearing them down.

Now you better run like a refridgerator.