Trump's "final offer" for peace requires Ukraine to accept Russian occupation

[Mac-7]

Until the next time.....

I would rather spend the next ten years building up our defenses than locked in an endless and bloody stalemate

 

[Crepitus]

I would rather spend the next ten years building up our defenses than locked in an endless and bloody stalemate

Are you a Ukrainian then?

 

[Zavulon]

I'm not sure where NATO puts nukes, but Sweden is now a member of NATO, just saying, even closer to Moscow than Ukraine. Putin messed up invading Ukraine, so many dead, so many left Russia, so many Rubles burned, for nothing. He had Crimea in 2014, dumbass, he should have stopped there.

First things first. And who told you, that he won't work with Sweden, too?

 

[Mac-7]

Are you a Ukrainian then?

No

Why do you ask?

 

[gipper]

Putin didn't occupy Crimea. Crimea was always Russian. That's what the vote was all about.

Americans are the most propagandized people on the planet. This issue reflects that very clearly.

Crimea has been part of Russia longer than the USA has existed. It dates back to Catherine the Great.

Secondly, do Americans believe in democracy? Apparently some don’t because the people of Crimea, who are overwhelmingly of Russian descent, voted to rejoined Russia.

 

[gipper]

It was Ukrainian in 2014, and they sent troops in.

They may end up with it, but they didn't start with it.

You clearly know nothing about Crimea. It has been Russian since Catherine the Great. Ever heard of her?

 

[kyzr]

You miss the point. Nato nukes in Sweden or Poland do not threaten Russia because they are outside the Russian defense grid, so any launch would be detected and still retaliated against. But since Russia used to have nukes INSIDE of the Ukraine, there is no defense grid between the Ukraine and Russia. That means a launch from the Ukraine could not be detected until it detonated in Russia.
That would mean most of Russia's retaliatory force could be wiped out on the ground.

I call bullshit. Russia can adjust their defense grid if they had to.
A simpler solution would be to prohibit all offensive weapons in Ukraine, with inspection authority.

 

[kyzr]

First things first. And who told you, that he won't work with Sweden, too?

Not sure what you mean by "work with Sweden"?

 

[Zavulon]

Not sure what you mean by "work with Sweden"?

For starters - economic and diplomatic measures (like with Turkey and Hungary), if it doesn't work - proxy conflicts (like sponsoring and backing Muslim rebellion in Sweden), and if it doesn't work either - ok, then it'll be direct military actions (including nuclear elimination of the main Sweden cities) and occupation of Sweden (with mopping out all the traces of anti-Russian resistance).

You know - carrots and sticks.

 

[frigidweirdo]

‘The U.S. expects Ukraine's response Wednesday to a peace framework that includes U.S. recognition of Crimea as part of Russia and unofficial recognition of Russian control of nearly all areas occupied since the 2022 invasion, sources with direct knowledge of the proposal tell Axios.

What Russia gets under Trump's proposal

"De jure" U.S. recognition of Russian control in Crimea.

"De-facto recognition" of the Russia's occupation of nearly all of Luhansk oblast and the occupied portions of Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.

A promise that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO. The text notes that Ukraine could become part of the European Union.

The lifting of sanctions imposed since 2014.

Enhanced economic cooperation with the U.S., particularly in the energy and industrial’

https://www.axios.com/2025/04/22/trump-russia-ukraine-peace-plan-crimea-donbas

Trump wants to reward his friend and ally Putin for launching an illegal invasion killing thousands, including civilians; that Trump wants to appease a war criminal comes as no surprise, Trump’s a criminal himself – Trump, forever Putin’s useful idiot.

Wow, so basically fuck the Ukraine and give Russia whatever it wants, because... because.... Trump's sucking Putin's dick.

 

[Zavulon]

Wow, so basically fuck the Ukraine and give Russia whatever it wants, because... because.... Trump's sucking Putin's dick.

No. Because America is not ready to a big war especially for such poor reason as Ukraine.
Actually, Europe is already too "independent" in their solutions. Right now they are "mutineers", and give them what they want - and they'll be direct enemies of the USA.

And if the USA doesn't restore leadership in NATO - the restoration of the global leadership is even less possible.

And to restore American leadership in NATO three things are crucial:

1) To force Europeans invest more in conventional European Armies.
2) To force Europeans to invest more in American industry and American nuclear umbrella.
3) To force Europeans to do whatever America said them to do.

The simplest way to do so is to say: "If you don't follow our orders - we wash our hands, and you are on your own. "

 

[kyzr]

For starters - economic and diplomatic measures (like with Turkey and Hungary), if it doesn't work - proxy conflicts (like sponsoring and backing Muslim rebellion in Sweden), and if it doesn't work either - ok, then it'll be direct military actions (including nuclear elimination of the main Sweden cities) and occupation of Sweden (with mopping out all the traces of anti-Russian resistance).
You know - carrots and sticks.

One of us has a very distorted view of economic reality.
I'm not sure what your reference to Turkey and Hungary is about. They are still in NATO.
Swedes won't put up with any type of "rebellion".
You and I both know that "direct military action" against any NATO country, including nuclear war, means the end of Russia.
Russia's military is depleted after years of useless war in Ukraine.
Russia's economy is also depleted due to punishing sanctions, which is why Putin wants them lifted immediately.
With the price of oil dropping Putin's cash reserve will also be dropping.
Its not about Russia's carrots and sticks, its more about Trump's.

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

List of the world's largest countries and dependencies by ...​

Britannica
https://www.britannica.com › ... › Humanities
Mar 14, 2025 — With a total area of 6,592,850 square miles (17,075,400 square km), Russia is the world's largest country. A distant second is Canada, with with 3,855,103 square miles (9,984,670 square km).

Ukraine​

Encyclopedia of the Nations
https://www.nationsencyclopedia.com › Europe › Ukraine
The country's total area is 603,700 square kilometers (233,000 square miles), making Ukraine about the size of Texas.

Why does Russia need more land?

 

[kyzr]

List of the world's largest countries and dependencies by ...​

Mar 14, 2025 — With a total area of 6,592,850 square miles (17,075,400 square km), Russia is the world's largest country. A distant second is Canada, with with 3,855,103 square miles (9,984,670 square km).

Ukraine​

The country's total area is 603,700 square kilometers (233,000 square miles), making Ukraine about the size of Texas.
Why does Russia need more land?

Its not about "land", its about "sphere's of influence" and Russia's national security.
Russia was promised "not one inch further east" by NATO, and then NATO expanded east. (see link below)
All land is not equal. Much of Russia's land is not suitable for farming, while Ukraine is called the "breadbasket of Europe".

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

"Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.”

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

Its not about "land", its about "sphere's of influence" and Russia's national security.
Russia was promised "not one inch further east" by NATO, and then NATO expanded east. (see link below)
All land is not equal. Much of Russia's land is not suitable for farming, while Ukraine is called the "breadbasket of Europe".

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

"Not once, but three times, Baker tried out the “not one inch eastward” formula with Gorbachev in the February 9, 1990, meeting. He agreed with Gorbachev’s statement in response to the assurances that “NATO expansion is unacceptable.” Baker assured Gorbachev that “neither the President nor I intend to extract any unilateral advantages from the processes that are taking place,” and that the Americans understood that “not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.”

BS.

NATO further expanded after the Cold War, adding the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland (1999); Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia (2004); Albania and Croatia (2009); Montenegro (2017); North Macedonia (2020); Finland (2023); and Sweden (2024).

Putin has been president since 2000.

 

[kyzr]

BS.
NATO further expanded after the Cold War, adding the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland (1999); Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia (2004); Albania and Croatia (2009); Montenegro (2017); North Macedonia (2020); Finland (2023); and Sweden (2024). Putin has been president since 2000.

Not sure what you are calling BS?
I was pointing out that as part of the reunification of Germany NATO committed to no eastward expansion.
Then as you show, NATO expanded east.
Putin is now drawing a red line at Ukraine.
Ukraine wants to belong to NATO, and Putin says NFW.
How will this end?

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

Not sure what you are calling BS?
I was pointing out that as part of the reunification of Germany NATO committed to no eastward expansion.
Then as you show, NATO expanded east.
Putin is now drawing a red line at Ukraine.

But that was established before Putin even became president.

Ukraine's Long Path toward NATO - American Diplomacy​

American Diplomacy
https://americandiplomacy.web.unc.edu › 2024/08 › uk...
Aug 1, 2024 — In January 1994, Ukraine became one of the first former Soviet and former Warsaw Pact states to join NATO's Partnership for Peace.

Ukraine wants to belong to NATO, and Putin says NFW.
How will this end?

 

[eagle1462010]

This is going to happen Trump or no Trump.......~S~

Only difference will be Odessa if they dont do a deal.

Russia is pounding Odessa.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am reminded of this scene.