TULIP (God calls some to atheism)

[BreezeWood]

so says the avowed communist.

.
if that were addressed to me, I'm happy all day long that night and the next day and on into the weekend ... and for you maybe if gloomy a sunday or two.

* also prove there was ever a time energy or matter have not always existed.

 

[Taz]

Has anyone ever spoken to God?

Only those who pray.

Has God ever spoken to a human?

All the time, through the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice.

So someone has recorded this?

The question is what would that actually look like, right?

So nobody has recorded this voice. Got it. Then you all must simply imagine it.

Are you expecting magic again, Taz?

I'm just going by what YOU said.

"the Holy Spirit who speaks in a very quiet voice"

So either god is speaking for real, or you're imagining it. Which is it?

We both know better what you meant, Taz. You dismiss and ridicule what you don't understand.

From my own personal experiences I have had revelations that when they popped into my head I instantly recognized that they were true. Mind you I am not describing religious revelations, but ordinary everyday kind of things about my ordinary everyday issues that I am confronted with. Usually they happen in the morning when I am in that halfway state of being asleep and being awake. There is only one time when we are not conscious of self and that is when we are asleep. So it makes perfect sense to me that that is the time I am most receptive to the spirit which binds us but is not a part of the material world. This is how I believe revelations work.

You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

So basically, you’re living in a dreamworld.

Like I said before... You keep worshiping yourself and I'll keep worshiping the creator of existence and we'll see who leads the the more harmonious and peaceful life.

You're worshipping a fantasy. If that brings you peace, I'm not against that.

How do you know?

Because you've shown no empirical proof for your invisible magician.

Untrue. The existence of God can be known through the light of human reason by examining what He created. What you mean to say is that you reject all evidence for God. There is no evidence you will accept as proof of God's existence. And then there is Jesus Christ.

But no one knows who, how or why the universe was created. I'd accept real, tangible empirical evidence. And you don't have that. For you, it's "my magical invisible friend exists because the universe exists. And my invisible friend cares how we live our live, well... just because."

The just because is because virtue is logical, taz. As for your failure to investigate the only evidence you will ever have until you enter into a relationship with the Creator, that's on you.

And then there is Jesus Christ.

None of what you said is empirical proof. So you still have nothing but a fantasy.

Actually it is. If you created something I could use it as evidence. Anything tangible can be used as evidence, dum dum.

But you have nothing that points to an invisible magician as the culprit. Cumlicker.

I wouldn't believe in an invisible magician either, dummy. But existence is the evidence you are looking for.

How does existence tie into your invisible friend? Fudge packer.

God created it so you could share in His existence.

No, but show the connection, the proof.

The connection is that what was created is evidence, dummy. Evidence is used to prove. But it seems your strategy is to systematically rule out the use of any and all evidence that can be used to prove God's existence solely because the existence of that evidence can be used to prove God's existence. Brilliant.

There's YOUR connection, dummy.

You don't connect existence with an invisible being. You just say "because it is". That's no proof. fartsniffer.

 

[Taz]

What would it take to assure you that God is real and God cares about you?

The same way you would prove you are real. I would want Him to stand right in front me me and say, “hi”. That would convince me.

Why should convincing you be important exactly?

Because people like you say that god kingdom is so fantastic, I want to see it for myself. But so far, nothing but goose eggs.

Then go and find it. No one is stopping you but you.

Just tell us how you found God so that we can use the same method. It turns out this is quite a complicated process for some reason.

Have you ever considered that God hates some people and loves others? (Like the Bible says). If God hates me then He probably doesn’t want me to find Him.

John Calvin is considered the greatest theologian of all times. John Calvin taught that God chooses some and ignores others. His theology actually makes sense and is consistent with the observation of myself and many atheists.

You seem to be an amateur theologian with a theology that makes no sense whatsoever. Are you sure that you and Calvin knew the same god?

Your theology is lacking an explanation for why God reveals Himself to you but refuses to reveal Himself to me. Calvinism explains it plainly and clearly.

Why? You aren't interested in it. You are here to amuse yourself. Besides, I don't believe you are willing or capable to do what is required. But on the off chance I have you pegged all wrong, it's simple. Die to self. Of course, simple does not necessarily mean easy.

So maybe Calvin wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was or as you think he was. God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

wtf does "die to self" means? Anything?

It means you should stop loving yourself so much that you can't see reality.

That makes no sense. It's just some random meaningless homily.

You'll never know because you can't stop loving yourself long enough to find out.

What does loving myself have to do with an invisible being?

 

[presonorek]

The concept of God being "obligated" is foreign to me and I cannot make sense of it.

It was never said that way. In evangelical Christianity we teach the ABC’s.

A-Admit to God you are a sinner.
B-Believe in Jesus as the Son of God.
C-Confess and turn away from your sins.

After you perform this ritual sincerely then you are saved from eternal torture in hell and receive eternal life. God has no say in the matter. This is central for all denominations of evangelical Christians. We also have a custom known as prayer and if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains. So basically if you ask God to cure your 94 year old great grandmother and you believe it to be true then God has to do it.

I love everything about Christianity except the bizarre custom of praying for medical needs. Asking for medical needs is not even part of the model prayer Jesus gave.

Yes. Prayer is a method of ordering God around. No. Nobody called it ordering God around but that is exactly what it is.

 

[presonorek]

I think that reality including Arks sailing the seas, men living for 900 years, animal sacrifice, etc., warp the concept of reality. The gods might have taken the time to edit the books written about them. They chose not to. Why did they not require the reader to understand allegory vs. literal rendering of the tales? Why did they not acknowledge that "hey, we're sort of right but those Egyptian gods, yeah, they were really right".

People have been studying the Bible for ages. There is a lot of information available, and many viable theories that are worth considering. Some really good scholars start with the premise that what is not true now (i.e. talking donkeys and snakes) are not true now. If mankind cannot live for 900 years now, then it was not possible then. All would agree this reasoning is based on knowledge and reasoning gathered through the years. Two theories that make the most sense: Zeros added to emphasize the importance of that person and what he accomplished. The theory I favor is this was a family (or tribal) name and the family/tribe lasted 900 years. The important thing is not to claim any theory as fact, to be comfortable with the knowledge that some knowledge or the way things were done thousands of years ago, has dissipated over the years.

The Bible is interesting. Your life is even more interesting. Your insights are just as worthy of consideration. Why shouldn't the original audience been expected to fully understand metaphor, symbolism, and allegory? In our own day don't we fully expect our audience to understand the expression (and many like it), "It's raining cats and dogs...and I stepped into a poodle."

It sounds like you are a free thinking atheist. You reject the stupid parts of the Bible but accept the parts that are good.

That’s actually a good thing. Not all Christians think. Most mainstream Christians reject thinking as a matter of virtue. You analyze the data and discard the nonsense. That’s what atheist do with the Bible too. Your relationship to the Bible is equal to the relationship an atheist has to the Bible. I’m not sure what we are arguing about. We both agree that the Bible is a powerful source of literature and we both believe some of it is not to be taken literally. We are both atheist of the God in the Bible. The God that you are buddies with is not the one in the Bible.

 

[Meriweather]

It was never said that way. In evangelical Christianity we teach the ABC’s.

A-Admit to God you are a sinner.
B-Believe in Jesus as the Son of God.
C-Confess and turn away from your sins.

Catholic ABCs

A. God loves you.
B. You love God above all else
C. (I forget. I never got past B.)

For the longest time I kept lists of everyone I loved. God was at the bottom. So I kept trying to love God more than I loved others. God moved up one or two places from time-to-time, but it was decades before He got to the top of the list. Decades. And every so often, He still slips down a notch or two.

In Catholic school it was a given that we sin, a given that sins are forgiven. We were taught about the ideal that we aim for; that sin is simply the failure to meet that ideal, that goal. God loves that we keep trying. He loves when we give up; He will help us find away forward. One thing that confession teaches Catholics is that it is almost impossible to turn away from sin. We are continually reminded we can't just let go of sin--we have to pick up something that replaces that sin. Guess what, we never reach the place where we can rest on our laurels, but we are always in God's love. We were taught to abide in love so that love may abide in us.

 

[Meriweather]

After you perform this ritual sincerely then you are saved from eternal torture in hell and receive eternal life. God has no say in the matter. This is central for all denominations of evangelical Christians. We also have a custom known as prayer and if you have faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains. So basically if you ask God to cure your 94 year old great grandmother and you believe it to be true then God has to do it.

Do you know what we learned about torture? In hell everyone was sitting around a huge table with food in the middle. Everyone had a long spoon to reach the feast, but the spoon was too long to return the food to one's mouth. Everyone was hungry and miserable, trying to keep the food on the spoon and place that spoon in their mouth. The view of heaven was exactly the same--the huge table, the long spoons, but here everyone was laughing, talking, and were eating their fill, because with their long spoons they were feeding one another. The lesson was that God doesn't torture any of His children, but the children often find ways to torture themselves. When one finds themself caught in this kind of trap, find someone to help out of the trap and see what happens.

As far as faith the size of a mustard seed moving mountains. Every year we drove through Nevada to visit my grandparents. There are plenty of mountains in Nevada, and I tried faithfully to get at least one of them to move. None did. Ever. Therefore I had to pick one of two options: I either did not have faith the size of a mustard seed, or I was not correctly understanding Jesus' message. I chose I did not understand and kept thinking about what this could mean. What I discovered is that when something needed to change in my life, if I had the faith to attempt that change, I could in deed move "mountains."

I still pass through Nevada from time-to-time, and I still grin and tell the mountains, "Everyone of you should have been replanted in the depths of the sea. Good thing God was protecting you from this small child."

 

[Meriweather]

I love everything about Christianity except the bizarre custom of praying for medical needs. Asking for medical needs is not even part of the model prayer Jesus gave.

I am a strong, but realistic advocate of wholistic health. Body, mind, and spirit are all connected. Sometimes the healing that takes place in mind and spirit can affect bodily health, just as bodily health (or lack there of) can affect mind and body. God heals the spirit. Whether that takes care of bodily maladies depends on the malady. I have never once been cured of a sore throat or even a pimple. However a strong, healthy spirit has sometimes been a great help through illness and injury. Asking for spiritual strength/healing during bodily weakness is a fine prayer.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes. Prayer is a method of ordering God around. No. Nobody called it ordering God around but that is exactly what it is.

Do you believe every time you ask, or make a request of someone, is you ordering them around? If you happen to mutter, "I need a pencil" that is really a command to those around you?

 

[ding]

ding's back on ignore, so to whatever he's heehawing at me.. I say neighayhayhay!

It was your pride that made you tell others that you put me on ignore. God forbid anyone think you saw what I wrote and couldn't respond.

But in reality that's exactly what it is.

 

[ding]

so says the avowed communist.

.
if that were addressed to me, I'm happy all day long that night and the next day and on into the weekend ... and for you maybe if gloomy a sunday or two.

* also prove there was ever a time energy or matter have not always existed.

Of course you are. You are a communist.

The SLoT proves that energy and matter in our universe had to have a beginning. Not to mention, CMB, red shift, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, an expanding universe, etc.

 

[ding]

What would it take to assure you that God is real and God cares about you?

The same way you would prove you are real. I would want Him to stand right in front me me and say, “hi”. That would convince me.

Why should convincing you be important exactly?

Because people like you say that god kingdom is so fantastic, I want to see it for myself. But so far, nothing but goose eggs.

Then go and find it. No one is stopping you but you.

Just tell us how you found God so that we can use the same method. It turns out this is quite a complicated process for some reason.

Have you ever considered that God hates some people and loves others? (Like the Bible says). If God hates me then He probably doesn’t want me to find Him.

John Calvin is considered the greatest theologian of all times. John Calvin taught that God chooses some and ignores others. His theology actually makes sense and is consistent with the observation of myself and many atheists.

You seem to be an amateur theologian with a theology that makes no sense whatsoever. Are you sure that you and Calvin knew the same god?

Your theology is lacking an explanation for why God reveals Himself to you but refuses to reveal Himself to me. Calvinism explains it plainly and clearly.

Why? You aren't interested in it. You are here to amuse yourself. Besides, I don't believe you are willing or capable to do what is required. But on the off chance I have you pegged all wrong, it's simple. Die to self. Of course, simple does not necessarily mean easy.

So maybe Calvin wasn't as knowledgeable as he thought he was or as you think he was. God is reality and the only way anyone will ever see reality is to die to self. When you can do that you will see how God has worked in your life.

wtf does "die to self" means? Anything?

It means you should stop loving yourself so much that you can't see reality.

That makes no sense. It's just some random meaningless homily.

You'll never know because you can't stop loving yourself long enough to find out.

What does loving myself have to do with an invisible being?

Go back and re-read this thread box.

 

[Meriweather]

It sounds like you are a free thinking atheist. You reject the stupid parts of the Bible but accept the parts that are good.

There are no "stupid parts of the Bible." After my own experience of God, the Bible mystified me, I couldn't understand it. That is when I began studying history, cultures, languages. Once I got away from Modern English and Western culture it made great sense.

Keep in mind, I still tend to be a rabble-rouser when it comes to my own opinions of Jacob and Esau (I'm on Esau's side); Saul and David (I favor Saul, and just barely keep myself from despising David); argue that the more secular leader was a great deal more merciful than the priests when it came to the Amalekites, etc. I love Jonah for his failures, etc.

The Bible was written by brilliant people with humor. Try reading God and His ways more as a setting than as a character; it may help to make better sense of the written word.

 

[Meriweather]

You analyze the data and discard the nonsense.

I discard nothing. I do remember that not everything in the Bible is about me or my issues.

 

[Meriweather]

The God that you are buddies with is not the one in the Bible.

Sorry, God and I are not "buddies". Far from it. That would be like saying I am buddies with my chinchillas. If I cannot truly understand a chinchilla, I don't fool myself that somehow I understand God. As far as my limited abilities can take me, I do try to know God. That might make about a short millimeter closer to God than the most sincere atheist.

 

[presonorek]

It sounds like you are a free thinking atheist. You reject the stupid parts of the Bible but accept the parts that are good.

There are no "stupid parts of the Bible." After my own experience of God, the Bible mystified me, I couldn't understand it. That is when I began studying history, cultures, languages. Once I got away from Modern English and Western culture it made great sense.

Keep in mind, I still tend to be a rabble-rouser when it comes to my own opinions of Jacob and Esau (I'm on Esau's side); Saul and David (I favor Saul, and just barely keep myself from despising David); argue that the more secular leader was a great deal more merciful than the priests when it came to the Amalekites, etc. I love Jonah for his failures, etc.

The Bible was written by brilliant people with humor. Try reading God and His ways more as a setting than as a character; it may help to make better sense of the written word.

I am in the process of reading through the Book of Mormon. I find it interesting that all the heroes in the Bible were actually bad people and the heroes of the Book of Mormon are good people.

Jacob was a liar. David was an all around bad guy but was a man after God’s own heart. Paul was a militant murderer of Christians. Solomon was an adulterer to the degree that would make Wilt Chamberlin blush. Samson was a murderer. I think the lesson is that God can use anybody for His service. The sinister side of me tells me that the Bible is actually written for the use of a few elites to utilize to control others. It makes me wonder why in centuries past people were murdered for translating the Bible. The Bible is an easily deciphered coded message for the wicked people of this world and if too many people read the Bible then the wicked people lose their power because we will know what they are up to. Every time a cult leader reaches notoriety we discover that the cult leader had an obsession with the Bible. Maybe it is not a coincidence that all the heroes in the Bible are bad guys. Maybe that is kinda the message. Bad guys rule. Good guys will believe anything you say as long as you use the god concept constantly. You can mold those good guys into anything you want and utilize them to reach any of your goals. Remind them constantly that good people deny themselves and submit to authority. It is almost too transparent to me. I guess I am one of the elites that the Bible was written to.

The next step is becoming a bad guy and utilizing the things I learned from the Bible.

 

[BreezeWood]

so says the avowed communist.

.
if that were addressed to me, I'm happy all day long that night and the next day and on into the weekend ... and for you maybe if gloomy a sunday or two.

* also prove there was ever a time energy or matter have not always existed.

Of course you are. You are a communist.

The SLoT proves that energy and matter in our universe had to have a beginning. Not to mention, CMB, red shift, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, an expanding universe, etc.

.

* also prove there was ever a time energy or matter have not always existed.

The SLoT proves that energy and matter in our universe had to have a beginning. Not to mention, CMB, red shift, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, an expanding universe, etc.

.
simultaneously ...
.

.
or just the beginning of your litany of absurdities.
.
.
the religion of antiquity is the true / only path to happiness and admission to the Everlasting - redhead has you pegged pretty good. comrade.

 

[ding]

so says the avowed communist.

.
if that were addressed to me, I'm happy all day long that night and the next day and on into the weekend ... and for you maybe if gloomy a sunday or two.

* also prove there was ever a time energy or matter have not always existed.

Of course you are. You are a communist.

The SLoT proves that energy and matter in our universe had to have a beginning. Not to mention, CMB, red shift, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, an expanding universe, etc.

.

* also prove there was ever a time energy or matter have not always existed.

The SLoT proves that energy and matter in our universe had to have a beginning. Not to mention, CMB, red shift, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations, an expanding universe, etc.

.
simultaneously ...
.
View attachment 477325
.
or just the beginning of your litany of absurdities.
.
.
the religion of antiquity is the true / only path to happiness and admission to the Everlasting - redhead has you pegged pretty good. comrade.

The religion of antiquity is communism, right?

 

[presonorek]

.

the religion of antiquity is the true / only path to happiness and admission to the Everlasting

Where can I find information about this religion of antiquity? Can I just make up the rules and accuse the rules of being old? How does this religion of antiquity work exactly? It honestly doesn’t even sound like a real thing.

 

[ding]

It sounds like you are a free thinking atheist. You reject the stupid parts of the Bible but accept the parts that are good.

There are no "stupid parts of the Bible." After my own experience of God, the Bible mystified me, I couldn't understand it. That is when I began studying history, cultures, languages. Once I got away from Modern English and Western culture it made great sense.

Keep in mind, I still tend to be a rabble-rouser when it comes to my own opinions of Jacob and Esau (I'm on Esau's side); Saul and David (I favor Saul, and just barely keep myself from despising David); argue that the more secular leader was a great deal more merciful than the priests when it came to the Amalekites, etc. I love Jonah for his failures, etc.

The Bible was written by brilliant people with humor. Try reading God and His ways more as a setting than as a character; it may help to make better sense of the written word.

I am in the process of reading through the Book of Mormon. I find it interesting that all the heroes in the Bible were actually bad people and the heroes of the Book of Mormon are good people.

Jacob was a liar. David was an all around bad guy but was a man after God’s own heart. Paul was a militant murderer of Christians. Solomon was an adulterer to the degree that would make Wilt Chamberlin blush. Samson was a murderer. I think the lesson is that God can use anybody for His service. The sinister side of me tells me that the Bible is actually written for the use of a few elites to utilize to control others. It makes me wonder why in centuries past people were murdered for translating the Bible. The Bible is an easily deciphered coded message for the wicked people of this world and if too many people read the Bible then the wicked people lose their power because we will know what they are up to. Every time a cult leader reaches notoriety we discover that the cult leader had an obsession with the Bible. Maybe it is not a coincidence that all the heroes in the Bible are bad guys. Maybe that is kinda the message. Bad guys rule. Good guys will believe anything you say as long as you use the god concept constantly. You can mold those good guys into anything you want and utilize them to reach any of your goals. Remind them constantly that good people deny themselves and submit to authority. It is almost too transparent to me. I guess I am one of the elites that the Bible was written to.

The next step is becoming a bad guy and utilizing the things I learned from the Bible.

Are you trying to sound like the Churchlady?