Virginia...has more guns now....less gun crime, even with the latest shooting.

[Skylar]

Yes, this article looks at the gun laws in Virginia. Katie Pavlich is a journalist and has completed the AR-15 and pistol classes at gun fighter school. she wrote about her experiences at the school last year. her she is discussing the myths that we need more gun laws and that we have a gun violence epidemic...

Of course, gun murder is going down, not up...and now 12.8 million people carry guns for self defense.

Katie Pavlich - The Truth About Guns in Virginia

Finally, it's important to point out that although every crime carried out with a firearm is a tragedy, there isn't a "gun violence epidemic" as the anti-gun activists claim. In recent years, gun sales in Virginia have exponentially increased while crime, including crimes carried out with firearms, have significantly decreased.

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases

Hmm.
What does this do to the claim that more guns = more gun murders?

What does this do to whose claim?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yes, this article looks at the gun laws in Virginia. Katie Pavlich is a journalist and has completed the AR-15 and pistol classes at gun fighter school. she wrote about her experiences at the school last year. her she is discussing the myths that we need more gun laws and that we have a gun violence epidemic...

Of course, gun murder is going down, not up...and now 12.8 million people carry guns for self defense.

Katie Pavlich - The Truth About Guns in Virginia

Finally, it's important to point out that although every crime carried out with a firearm is a tragedy, there isn't a "gun violence epidemic" as the anti-gun activists claim. In recent years, gun sales in Virginia have exponentially increased while crime, including crimes carried out with firearms, have significantly decreased.

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases

Hmm.
What does this do to the claim that more guns = more gun murders?

What does this do to whose claim?

Murder rates have dropped everywhere, even in areas with more guns.
What does this do to the claim that more guns = more gun-related murders?

 

[Skylar]

I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.

Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

Okay. Suicide isn't violence. So let's scratch that from your equations.

When a gun in the house doubles the rate of suicide, no....we don't 'scratch that'.

Now the states with more guns have less violent crime and less gun violence.

Really? Alaska has one of the rights rates of gun ownership. Yet its consistently in the top 10 for violent crime. In 2014 it had 603 violent crimes per 100,000 on a national average of about 386.

South Carolina has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the nation. And in 2014 was number 1 for violent crime with double the national average.

Hawaii has the lowest gun ownership rate in the nation. And has one of the lowest rates of violent crime in the nation, at 286.

Arkansas is in the top 5 for gun ownership rates. And in the top 10 for violent crime rates, at 552

There's something wrong with your hypothesis.

Guns are not the risk factor for suicide, drug use, alcoholism and mental health problems increase the risk, not gun ownership, since close to half of all suicides in the U.S. are done without guns. Take away guns and the other half will switch methods from guns to what the other suicides use.

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.

That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

No, they aren't. They are merely a tool. Remove the guns and the tool merely changes. That means they are not a risk factor. But that would be an honest appraisal, and we all know you aren't honest.

A far, far less effective tool. With suicide attempts succeeding less than 5% of the time. Guns increase that to over 90%. Without a gun you may attempt suicide, but its overwhelmingly likely you won't succeed. With a gun, its almost certain you will succeed.

Making guns an enormous risk factor for suicide, doubling the odds of committing suicide. These aren't subtle numbers.

 

[Skylar]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

Again, whose claims are you referring to?

 

[Skylar]

Yes, this article looks at the gun laws in Virginia. Katie Pavlich is a journalist and has completed the AR-15 and pistol classes at gun fighter school. she wrote about her experiences at the school last year. her she is discussing the myths that we need more gun laws and that we have a gun violence epidemic...

Of course, gun murder is going down, not up...and now 12.8 million people carry guns for self defense.

Katie Pavlich - The Truth About Guns in Virginia

Finally, it's important to point out that although every crime carried out with a firearm is a tragedy, there isn't a "gun violence epidemic" as the anti-gun activists claim. In recent years, gun sales in Virginia have exponentially increased while crime, including crimes carried out with firearms, have significantly decreased.

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases

Hmm.
What does this do to the claim that more guns = more gun murders?

What does this do to whose claim?

Murder rates have dropped everywhere, even in areas with more guns.
What does this do to the claim that more guns = more gun-related murders?

For the third time, whose claims are you referring to? You're using the passive voice like you're being given a commission with each attempt

 

[M14 Shooter]

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.
That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

 

[M14 Shooter]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

Again, whose claims are you referring to?

Yours.
I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.
Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yes, this article looks at the gun laws in Virginia. Katie Pavlich is a journalist and has completed the AR-15 and pistol classes at gun fighter school. she wrote about her experiences at the school last year. her she is discussing the myths that we need more gun laws and that we have a gun violence epidemic...

Of course, gun murder is going down, not up...and now 12.8 million people carry guns for self defense.

Katie Pavlich - The Truth About Guns in Virginia

Finally, it's important to point out that although every crime carried out with a firearm is a tragedy, there isn't a "gun violence epidemic" as the anti-gun activists claim. In recent years, gun sales in Virginia have exponentially increased while crime, including crimes carried out with firearms, have significantly decreased.

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases

Hmm.
What does this do to the claim that more guns = more gun murders?

What does this do to whose claim?

Yours.
I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.
Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

 

[Skylar]

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.
That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.

The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.

Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.
That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

 

[Skylar]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

Again, whose claims are you referring to?

Yours.
I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.
Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

That's in reference to States. Not your house alone. You're using the anecdotal evidence fallacy. Offering us gun violence in your home in a discussion of gun violence on a State level.

And I've offered my examples of how higher gun ownership rates do NOT result in lower violent crime. Citing 10 states where gun ownership rates are high.....and violent crime is well above average. And cited 5 more examples where gun ownership rates are low and violence crime is below average.

 

[Skylar]

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.
That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

And increase in success rates of suicide attempts from less than 5% to more than 90% when a gun is used isn't a random coincidence. Its immediately caused by the use of the gun.

You can argue its an unrelated coincidence if you'd like. But the evidence doesn't back that bizarre assumption.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

Again, whose claims are you referring to?

Yours.
I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.
Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

That's in reference to States. Not your house alone.

Oh, I see.
You claim doesn't apply everywhere, just where it is convenient for you to apply it.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.
That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

And increase in success rates of suicide attempts from less than 5% to more than 90% when a gun is used isn't a random coincidence. Its immediately caused by the use of the gun.

Not sure how any of that in any way supports your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles
How does having a gun make it 100% more likely that someone in my house will commit suicide?

 

[Skylar]

Blithering nonsense. Guns are an enormous risk factor for suicide. One of the single largest, in fact. If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.....doubles.
That's a 100% increase. You can ignore these facts and these numbers. But you can't make anyone else ignore them.

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

And increase in success rates of suicide attempts from less than 5% to more than 90% when a gun is used isn't a random coincidence. Its immediately caused by the use of the gun.

Not sure how any of that in any way supports your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles
How does having a gun make it 100% more likely that someone in my house will commit suicide?

I've already explained that to you repeatedly. Go back and read any of the half dozen posts related to how guns make suicide attempts more lethal. And you have your answer.

Guns don't increase the rate of suicide attempts. Instead, it dramatically increases the rates of succeeding at the attempt.

 

[Skylar]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

Again, whose claims are you referring to?

Yours.
I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.
Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

That's in reference to States. Not your house alone.

Oh, I see.
You claim doesn't apply everywhere, just where it is convenient for you to apply it.

Read the OP. We're discussing states. Not your house.

You're doubling down on the anecdotal evidence fallacy. If your argument had merit, you wouldn't have had to.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

And increase in success rates of suicide attempts from less than 5% to more than 90% when a gun is used isn't a random coincidence. Its immediately caused by the use of the gun.

Not sure how any of that in any way supports your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles
How does having a gun make it 100% more likely that someone in my house will commit suicide?

Guns don't increase the rate of suicide attempts.

Then your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles is, at best, misleading, and at worst, dishonest.

The fact that guns make suicide attempts more likely to succeed is, in terms of the regulation of guns, meaningless.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I have 15x more guns than my neighbor - I have 15, he has 1
If more guns = more gun violence, why do we both have exactly the same rate of gun violence?

Again, whose claims are you referring to?

Yours.
I'm talking gun violence. The more guns, the more gun violence. Including the more cops likely to be shot.
Less guns, less gun violence. Including cops less likely to be shot.

That's in reference to States. Not your house alone.

Oh, I see.
You claim doesn't apply everywhere, just where it is convenient for you to apply it.

Read the OP. We're discussing states. Not your house.

In other words, you cannot explain why your claimed correlation does not actually apply everywhere. Thank you.

 

[Skylar]

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

And increase in success rates of suicide attempts from less than 5% to more than 90% when a gun is used isn't a random coincidence. Its immediately caused by the use of the gun.

Not sure how any of that in any way supports your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles
How does having a gun make it 100% more likely that someone in my house will commit suicide?

Guns don't increase the rate of suicide attempts.

Then your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles is, at best, misleading, and at worst, dishonest.

The fact that guns make suicide attempts more likely to succeed is, in terms of the regulation of guns, meaningless.

The dramatic increase in the success rate of a suicide from less than 5% to more than 90% establishes your causation. The gun makes suicide attempts orders of magnitude more lethal. Where without a gun, well in excess of 95% of suicide attempts don't succeed.
The relationship between gun ownership and higher suicide rates is immediate and verifiable: guns increase the lethality of suicide attempts.
Flushing your 'fallacy' claim.

"Relationship" does not prove causation. Period.

And increase in success rates of suicide attempts from less than 5% to more than 90% when a gun is used isn't a random coincidence. Its immediately caused by the use of the gun.

Not sure how any of that in any way supports your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles
How does having a gun make it 100% more likely that someone in my house will commit suicide?

Guns don't increase the rate of suicide attempts.

Then your claim that If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household committing suicide doubles is, at best, misleading, and at worst, dishonest.

Oh, its quite accurate. Again, you're confusing suicide attempts with committing suicide. They aren't same thing. You're using the false equivalency fallacy.

Do you understand the difference between attempting suicide......and commiting suicide? Because its at the core of why your argument broke.

The fact that guns make suicide attempts more likely to succeed is, in terms of the regulation of guns, meaningless.

In terms of the rate of suicide within homes where guns are present its immediately relevant. As guns make what would almost certainly fail into an attempt that will almost certainly succeed.

And with your acknowledgement that guns make suicide attempts more likely to succeed, you've conceded my point. This is the exact risk factor I'm referring to. The exact cause of the dramatic increase in suicide rates when a gun is present.