Virginia...has more guns now....less gun crime, even with the latest shooting.

[2aguy]

In other words, you cannot explain why your claimed correlation does not actually apply everywhere. Thank you.

In otherwords, we're discussing States. Not your house.

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

Then you just conceded my point, affirming my very first post in the thread:

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases. And places without it. When your 'effect' exists regardless of the presence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

Skylar
Post 2

Thank you.

According to every anti gun extremist out there, more guns will lead to more gun murders….it has not happened. They are wrong. However, if you want to lower the gun murder rate even more……disarm the democrats…who do the most shooting...

 

[M14 Shooter]

It would be accurate if you said If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household successfully committing suicide doubles
But you didn't. Your statement speaks to attempt, not success.

Blithering nonsense and another tired false equivalency fallacy.

It's not my fault you didn't work your claim correctly.

Oh, my argment is fine.

Your original statement, the one I responded to, was worded incorrectly.

My orginal statement was fine, citing committing suicide. Says who? Says you.

I said it was, at best, misleading, and at worst, dishonest. Not sure how you missed that, or why you refuse to admit it.

This is where we run into your problem of irrationality. To a rational person, an obvious risk factor that doubled the odds of a member of my household dying would matter.

There you go, trying to conflate terms again.
Your statement that "If you have a gun in the house, the odds of someone in your household successfully committing suicide doubles" does not have the same meaning as the conclusion drawn from your evidence,"that the use of a gun is a "major factor" in a successful suicide attempt."

Parsing your pedantry aside:
Using a gun makes it more likely someone will succeed in committing suicide.
OK. And...?

 

[Skylar]

In otherwords, we're discussing States. Not your house.

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

Then you just conceded my point, affirming my very first post in the thread:

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases. And places without it. When your 'effect' exists regardless of the presence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

Skylar
Post 2

Thank you.

I am pointing out that more Americans than ever before now own and carry guns for self defense…..and the gun murder rate is going down. That means that more gun ownership does not lead to more gun murder……the gun murder rate is going down as the gun ownership rate goes up. You guys can't say that more guns in the hands of more law abiding people means there will be more gun murders.

Of course then you move on to suicides where you are also wrong.

The murder rate is going down even where people aren't carrying guns. The existence of your imagined 'cause' is irrelevant to the effect. If there are more guns......we have lower crime. If there are less guns.....we have lower crime.

And you've already conceded the point that murder rates are going down.....everywhere. Which would presumably include those places that don't have open carry, have restrictive gun laws, or have a populous that doesn't choose to own guns as often.

Your cause, isn't.

 

[2aguy]

In other words, you cannot explain why your claimed correlation does not actually apply everywhere. Thank you.

In otherwords, we're discussing States. Not your house.

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

Then you just conceded my point, affirming my very first post in the thread:

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases. And places without it. When your 'effect' exists regardless of the presence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

Skylar
Post 2

Thank you.

According to every anti gun extremist out there, more guns will lead to more gun murders….it has not happened. They are wrong. However, if you want to lower the gun murder rate even more……disarm the democrats…who do the most shootin

 

[M14 Shooter]

In other words, you cannot explain why your claimed correlation does not actually apply everywhere. Thank you.

In otherwords, we're discussing States. Not your house.

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

 

[Skylar]

Blithering nonsense and another tired false equivalency fallacy.

It's not my fault you didn't work your claim correctly.

Oh, my argment is fine.

Your original statement, the one I responded to, was worded incorrectly.

My orginal statement was fine, citing committing suicide. Says who? Says you.

I said it was, at best, misleading, and at worst, dishonest. Not sure how you missed that, or why you refuse to admit it.

You said it was dishonest....because my claims speak to attempting suicide. The obvious problem with your argument being......it doesn't. Committing suicide doesn't speak to attempting to kill yourself. It speaks to killing yourself. Destroying your entire argument.

Face it: you fucked up. You laughably equated attempting suicide with commiting suicide. And they aren't the same thing. You can't get around that.

And 'poof', all your gibberish about 'dishonesty' goes out the window. While my claim remains gloriously accurate and uncontested:

Having a gun in the home doubles the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.

Keep running

 

[2aguy]

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

Then you just conceded my point, affirming my very first post in the thread:

And for at least the 20th time, murder rates have been dropping everywhere. In places with massive gun sale increases. And places without it. When your 'effect' exists regardless of the presence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

Skylar
Post 2

Thank you.

I am pointing out that more Americans than ever before now own and carry guns for self defense…..and the gun murder rate is going down. That means that more gun ownership does not lead to more gun murder……the gun murder rate is going down as the gun ownership rate goes up. You guys can't say that more guns in the hands of more law abiding people means there will be more gun murders.

Of course then you move on to suicides where you are also wrong.

The murder rate is going down even where people aren't carrying guns. The existence of your imagined 'cause' is irrelevant to the effect. If there are more guns......we have lower crime. If there are less guns.....we have lower crime.

And you've already conceded the point that murder rates are going down.....everywhere. Which would presumably include those places that don't have open carry, have restrictive gun laws, or have a populous that doesn't choose to own guns as often.

Your cause, isn't.

You are wrong….the whole time the states were implementing concealed and open carry of guns, you guys were bitching and moaning that there would be blood in the streets….in every single state that contemplated, then passed these carry laws……you were wrong in every single case. The gun murder rate went down, not up as they allowed law abiding citizens to carry guns….

Why?

Because law abiding citizens can carry guns all day long 24/7 365 days a year and they aren't going to use them to commit crimes or mass shootings….you guys were the ones predicting that gun murder rates would go up, not us.

You all said every traffic fender bender would lead to shoot outs….hasn't happened. In fact, concealed carry gun owners are more law abiding than even sworn police officers….you were wrong again.

 

[Skylar]

In otherwords, we're discussing States. Not your house.

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible? Are you beating up that strawman again?

 

[2aguy]

From FBI table 8…..

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Gun murder rates since 2008

2008…..9,528

2009….9,199

2010….8,874

2011….8,653

2012….8,855

2013….8,454

 

[Skylar]

I am pointing out that more Americans than ever before now own and carry guns for self defense…..and the gun murder rate is going down. That means that more gun ownership does not lead to more gun murder……the gun murder rate is going down as the gun ownership rate goes up. You guys can't say that more guns in the hands of more law abiding people means there will be more gun murders.

And the murder rates drops in the States that *didn't* implement concealed carry. Again, your 'effect' (lower murder rates) occurred regardless of if there was concealed carry or not.

You already admitted murder rates went down everywhere. While recognizing that concealed carry laws weren't expanded everywhere.

You've conceded the entire argument.[

 

[Skylar]

From FBI table 8…..

Expanded Homicide Data Table 8

Gun murder rates since 2008

2008…..9,528

2009….9,199

2010….8,874

2011….8,653

2012….8,855

2013….8,454

Exactly. With murder rates going down in the states that didn't have concealed carry......and those that did. When your 'effect' exists regardless of the presence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

 

[M14 Shooter]

.While my claim remains gloriously accurate and uncontested:
Having a gun in the home doubles the odds of someone in your household committing suicide.

Nothing you have posted supports this.

Parsing your petulant pedantry aside:
Using a gun makes it more likely someone will succeed in committing suicide.
OK. And...?

 

[M14 Shooter]

If your correlation is true, then it applies everywhere.
You're arguing that it does not apply everywhere.. If not B, the not A.

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

 

[Skylar]

Again, the anecdotal evidence fallacy. A polling sample of one doesn't offer us any particular insight into national or state wide violence rates.

Worse, you can't back anything you've said. Where I can objectively verify State gun violence rates. Your logic is simply atrocious.

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And states with lower than average gun ownership rates and lower violent crime.

 

[2aguy]

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And states with lower than average gun ownership rates and lower violent crime.

Yeah, where was that link….I think I saw that one….suicides are counted…right?

 

[2aguy]

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And states with lower than average gun ownership rates and lower violent crime.

Except…more guns means less gun murders…..blows your whole point to crap…..

 

[M14 Shooter]

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And so, why has the number of gun related murders dropped while the number of guns has increased?

 

[2aguy]

Could you give the link on the gun murder rates….I use the FBI table 8 which showed only 8,454 gun murders in 2013….having gone down from the years before…dittos accidental gun deaths…505.

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And states with lower than average gun ownership rates and lower violent crime.

Still need that link to your stats…..

 

[Skylar]

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And so, why has the number of gun related murders dropped while the number of guns has increased?

The violent crime rate in many States with high gun ownership rates has remained high in comparison to the national average. And in comparison to many States that have lower gun ownership rates.

Which is exactly my point.

 

[Skylar]

So you recognize that gun deaths are going down.....everywhere?

How is this possible in light of the fact that there are more guns?

Who said it wasn't possible?

You.
More guns = more gun violence.

And I've backed that up, citing state after State with higher than average gun ownership rates.....and higher than average violent crime.

And states with lower than average gun ownership rates and lower violent crime.

Still need that link to your stats…..

Are you saying that Alaska doesn't have a high gun ownership rate? Or that it doesn't have a high per capita crime rate?