Want to enact more gun control? Convince me.

[Jarlaxle]

Magazine changes can be very, very rapid, taking just seconds. The Columbine shooters had all the time in the world to reload and reload. They shot in the cafeteria, they entered the library, the went back to the cafeteria, then they went back to the library, and finally the science area. The shooting started at 11:19am and they continued their carnage until they committed suicide at approximately 12:08pm - or nearly an hour.

-Geaux

in a low stress environment, yes...one can unload and reload a new magazine very quickly.

in the heat of mass-murder, with blood everywhere, screaming, shouting, cops on the way, the possibility of suicide very close, thinking about one's family, it might take a little more time to change magazines.

yes, limiting magazine size is not a perfect solution.

but its a solution.

i think a good compromise would be to limit magazine size for the general public to 10 rounds.

and allow folks to get a permit with a more extensive background check to allow them to own high-capacity magazines.

It definitely is a solution. As I posted with the Tucson shooting, the shooter was stopped by unarmed citizens when he tried to reload. The more times he has to reload the more opportunities there are.

No, he was stopped when his WEAPON JAMMED!

 

[Abatis]

Why is it you think those arms are so protected, . . .

Because they meet ALL the protection criteria by which SCOTUS decides whether government is held impotent to dictate to the law-abiding citizen regarding their possession and use.

Those criteria are whether the arm is of the type that constitute the ordinary military equipment and can be employed advantageously in the common defense of the citizen and whether the arm is of a type in common use by the citizens.

Only after failing ALL those tests can the arm be deemed "dangerous and unusual" and the government would be allowed to argue that a power should be recognized /afforded to it to allow it to restrict the civilian possession and use of that type of arm.

This means that the government can only regulate the people's keeping and bearing of arms that are not in common use, not of a type that is part of the ordinary military equipment and of a type that would be useless in the common defense of the citizen.

yet others are illegal?

No guns are 'illegal", there are some types that have been deemed to be "dangerous and unusual" by Congress who has claimed the power (through the tax code) to restrict the possession and use of those types of arms by civilians, without the application of the above criteria.

Note that none of those restrictions have been reviewed using a post Heller understanding or the right to arms nor with any recognition of McDonald's affirmation of the right to arms being a fundamental right (thus demanding the application of strict scrutiny to laws challenged as violative of the right).

Can you buy a brand new automatic rifle? Nope.

Heller applied the criteria "in common use" as a final filter, noting that while full auto's are obviously part of the ordinary military equipment (and thus protected under the 2nd), the law restricting them for over 70 years (NFA-34) has effectively made them currently, not in common use. Heller doesn't endorse or affirm the constitutionality of NFA-34's treatment of full auto's and makes a point of noting that the NFA-34 restrictions on full-auto's was not under examination in Miller . . .

So I see no reason why you can buy a hi cap semi-auto. Both can kill lots of people really fast.

You are advancing an emotional construct not a legal one.

Your unfamiliarity with the law is the only reason why you, "see no reason why".

"In common use" has been advanced as the final filter for the protection criteria and in Heller, for deciding the constitutionality of DC's handgun ban, held it to be stand alone.

The fact that semi-auto military look-alike rifles are "in common use" and of the type that constitutes the ordinary military equipment and of a type that could be employed advantageously in the common defense of the citizen, the argument that any law restricting the possession and use by citizens would be constitutional, is relegated to the status of wishful thinking.

 

[Hoffstra]

You are assuming criminals will follow the law!

no, I'm assuming FFLs will follow the law.

if we limit handgun purchases to one per month, and an FFL can't account for all his handguns at the end of the year, he should lose his license.

if one of the guns he sold illegally ends up being used in a crime the FFL should also go to jail.



....also, the point of laws is to deter crime AND to punish crime.

if they don't follow the law, that's fine. We'll just lock their ass in prison when we catch them.

 

[Geaux4it]

You are assuming criminals will follow the law!

no, I'm assuming FFLs will follow the law.

if we limit handgun purchases to one per month, and an FFL can't account for all his handguns at the end of the year, he should lose his license.

if one of the guns he sold illegally ends up being used in a crime the FFL should also go to jail.



....also, the point of laws is to deter crime AND to punish crime.

if they don't follow the law, that's fine. We'll just lock their ass in prison when we catch them.

And what value is there to limiting one handgun purchase per month?

-Geaux

 

[Hoffstra]

And what value is there to limiting one handgun purchase per month?

-Geaux

makes the lives of gun-runners very difficult.

if they make a living buying 20 guns a month down south and selling them up north to crackheads and rapists, limiting their handgun purchases to one per month will require them to hire 20 people that have clean records, to strawman purchase guns for them.

before, they could just buy the guns on their own.

now, they would have to pay 20 people to buy guns for them.

that's a big disincentive.

 

[Geaux4it]

And what value is there to limiting one handgun purchase per month?

-Geaux

makes the lives of gun-runners very difficult.

if they make a living buying 20 guns a month down south and selling them up north to crackheads and rapists, limiting their handgun purchases to one per month will require them to hire 20 people that have clean records, to strawman purchase guns for them.

before, they could just buy the guns on their own.

now, they would have to pay 20 people to buy guns for them.

that's a big disincentive.

Wow.. You lost me there..that's a pretty outlandish statement

-Geaux

 

[Jarlaxle]

You are assuming criminals will follow the law!

no, I'm assuming FFLs will follow the law.

if we limit handgun purchases to one per month, and an FFL can't account for all his handguns at the end of the year, he should lose his license.

if one of the guns he sold illegally ends up being used in a crime the FFL should also go to jail.



....also, the point of laws is to deter crime AND to punish crime.

if they don't follow the law, that's fine. We'll just lock their ass in prison when we catch them.

And what value is there to limiting one handgun purchase per month?

-Geaux

It FEELS GOOD!

 

[Geaux4it]

And what value is there to limiting one handgun purchase per month?

-Geaux

makes the lives of gun-runners very difficult.

if they make a living buying 20 guns a month down south and selling them up north to crackheads and rapists, limiting their handgun purchases to one per month will require them to hire 20 people that have clean records, to strawman purchase guns for them.

before, they could just buy the guns on their own.

now, they would have to pay 20 people to buy guns for them.

that's a big disincentive.

Another illogical approach as most gun crimes are committed with stolen weapons, not ones sold through straw purchases. The report is dated but is in line with more recent data

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

By definition, stolen guns are available to criminals. The FBI's National
Crime Information Center (NCIC)
stolen gun file contains over 2 million
reports; 60% are reports of stolen
handguns. page 3

 

[Missourian]

in a low stress environment, yes...one can unload and reload a new magazine very quickly.

in the heat of mass-murder, with blood everywhere, screaming, shouting, cops on the way, the possibility of suicide very close, thinking about one's family, it might take a little more time to change magazines.

yes, limiting magazine size is not a perfect solution.

but its a solution.

i think a good compromise would be to limit magazine size for the general public to 10 rounds.

and allow folks to get a permit with a more extensive background check to allow them to own high-capacity magazines.

It definitely is a solution. As I posted with the Tucson shooting, the shooter was stopped by unarmed citizens when he tried to reload. The more times he has to reload the more opportunities there are.

No, he was stopped when his WEAPON JAMMED!

I'm pretty sure Aurora guys weapon jammed as a direct result of his highcap magazine as well.

Away from these rituals, new details emerged about the suspect, James Holmes, 24. Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

Colorado shooting spree could have been worse; shooter's gun jammed -The Washington Post.
​

There you go, highcap magazines save lives.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It definitely is a solution. As I posted with the Tucson shooting, the shooter was stopped by unarmed citizens when he tried to reload. The more times he has to reload the more opportunities there are.

No, he was stopped when his WEAPON JAMMED!

I'm pretty sure Aurora guys weapon jammed as a direct result of his highcap magazine as well.

Away from these rituals, new details emerged about the suspect, James Holmes, 24. Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

Colorado shooting spree could have been worse; shooter's gun jammed -The Washington Post.
​

There you go, highcap magazines save lives.

Well, hi-cap mags in an AR, perhaps…

 

[Brain357]

No, he was stopped when his WEAPON JAMMED!

I'm pretty sure Aurora guys weapon jammed as a direct result of his highcap magazine as well.

Away from these rituals, new details emerged about the suspect, James Holmes, 24. Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

Colorado shooting spree could have been worse; shooter's gun jammed -The Washington Post.
​

There you go, highcap magazines save lives.

Well, hi-cap mags in an AR, perhaps…

I realize that with as many mass shootings as we have here that they can be confused. As I stated, the shooter was stopped in the TUCSON shooting when he tried to reload:

"Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the 14th injury."
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the shootings where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot. Yes our situation is so dire that even a representative is not safe.

Clearly a magazine can even be dropped during a reload. But having to reload doesn't slow down a shooter right?

 

[Geaux4it]

I'm pretty sure Aurora guys weapon jammed as a direct result of his highcap magazine as well.

Away from these rituals, new details emerged about the suspect, James Holmes, 24. Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

Colorado shooting spree could have been worse; shooter's gun jammed -The Washington Post.
​

There you go, highcap magazines save lives.

Well, hi-cap mags in an AR, perhaps…

I realize that with as many mass shootings as we have here that they can be confused. As I stated, the shooter was stopped in the TUCSON shooting when he tried to reload:

"Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the 14th injury."
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the shootings where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot. Yes our situation is so dire that even a representative is not safe.

Clearly a magazine can even be dropped during a reload. But having to reload doesn't slow down a shooter right?

Slowing down a shooter is not an excuse or valid reason to violate the majority of law abiding users of standard capacity magazines freedoms

Statistically speaking, acceptable risk as the Senate confirmed

-Geaux

 

[M14 Shooter]

I only support those gun control regulations that will reduce crime and make crime harder.

Ok...

That's why I support background checks for ALL handgun sales and a 1 per month limit on handgun purchases

.
How does this make it harder to commit crime?

This will reduce handguns being accessable to criminals...

... crimials, who do not buy guns thru gun dealers?

cause gun runners simply won't be able to make a profit if they can only buy one handgun a month...

Because "gun runners" will follow this law?

Tell me: How do you enforce these laws?

 

[M14 Shooter]

i see nothing wrong with a 10-roung magazine limit
though....it will only slow down a mass-shooter, not stop him

So what is he ratiuonal basis for the arbitrarly limit?
How does this limit not violate the constitution?

and should the lives of tens of millions of legal and law-abiding gun owners be affected by 5 mass shooters a year?

You apparently think so as you argue to limit the rights of those millions of gun owners because of those 5 shooters.

 

[Brain357]

No, he was stopped when his WEAPON JAMMED!

I'm pretty sure Aurora guys weapon jammed as a direct result of his highcap magazine as well.

Away from these rituals, new details emerged about the suspect, James Holmes, 24. Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

Colorado shooting spree could have been worse; shooter's gun jammed -The Washington Post.
​

There you go, highcap magazines save lives.

Well, hi-cap mags in an AR, perhaps…

Interesting that he jammed. Yet some people are saying anyone with sheet metal an a pliers can make a magazine that works flawlessly. I think it's clear thats not believable.

 

[Brain357]

Well, hi-cap mags in an AR, perhaps…

I realize that with as many mass shootings as we have here that they can be confused. As I stated, the shooter was stopped in the TUCSON shooting when he tried to reload:

"Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the 14th injury."
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the shootings where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot. Yes our situation is so dire that even a representative is not safe.

Clearly a magazine can even be dropped during a reload. But having to reload doesn't slow down a shooter right?

Slowing down a shooter is not an excuse or valid reason to violate the majority of law abiding users of standard capacity magazines freedoms

Statistically speaking, acceptable risk as the Senate confirmed

-Geaux

Why is it any American would need or want this freedom to quickly and easily become a mass shooter? People didn't have it when the country was founded, they used single shot muskets.

This is a completely unnessessary risk.

 

[Geaux4it]

I realize that with as many mass shootings as we have here that they can be confused. As I stated, the shooter was stopped in the TUCSON shooting when he tried to reload:

"Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the 14th injury."
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the shootings where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot. Yes our situation is so dire that even a representative is not safe.

Clearly a magazine can even be dropped during a reload. But having to reload doesn't slow down a shooter right?

Slowing down a shooter is not an excuse or valid reason to violate the majority of law abiding users of standard capacity magazines freedoms

Statistically speaking, acceptable risk as the Senate confirmed

-Geaux

Why is it any American would need or want this freedom to quickly and easily become a mass shooter?

Because by far the overwhelming majority of owners with standard capacity magazines do not commit crimes or become mass shooters.

Stating otherwise, is an Illogical comment that does nothing to support your argument

-Geaux

 

[Brain357]

Slowing down a shooter is not an excuse or valid reason to violate the majority of law abiding users of standard capacity magazines freedoms

Statistically speaking, acceptable risk as the Senate confirmed

-Geaux

Why is it any American would need or want this freedom to quickly and easily become a mass shooter?

Because by far the overwhelming majority of owners with standard capacity magazines do not commit crimes or become mass shooters.

Stating otherwise, is an Illogical comment that does nothing to support your argument

-Geaux

So there really is no logical reason? You said it was an acceptable risk. If there is risk then there must be reward. What is the reward?

 

[Missourian]

I'm pretty sure Aurora guys weapon jammed as a direct result of his highcap magazine as well.

Away from these rituals, new details emerged about the suspect, James Holmes, 24. Authorities said the gunman might have killed more if his assault rifle had not jammed.

Colorado shooting spree could have been worse; shooter's gun jammed -The Washington Post.
​

There you go, highcap magazines save lives.

Well, hi-cap mags in an AR, perhaps…

I realize that with as many mass shootings as we have here that they can be confused. As I stated, the shooter was stopped in the TUCSON shooting when he tried to reload:

"Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the 14th injury."
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the shootings where US Representative Gabrielle Giffords was shot. Yes our situation is so dire that even a representative is not safe.

Clearly a magazine can even be dropped during a reload. But having to reload doesn't slow down a shooter right?

That's what happens when you trust Wikipedia...you get bad information.

A woman tried to grab the gun from Loughner as he reloaded. Two others grabbed him as the second magazine jammed, Dupnick said.


The woman, who was later identified as Patricia Maisch, was wounded while "trying to get the gun away from him," Dupnik said Sunday morning. Later, authorities said Maisch was uninjured.


FBI Director: Loughner is suspect in Giffords shooting rampage


​

Loughner reloaded, when he tried to fire the gun was jammed.


Likely a double feed...the longer the magazine, the stronger the spring has to be.


It has to be strong enough to extend and push that last round into the chamber.


That immense pressure has a side effect of pushing the first two rounds out of the magazine at the same time (called a double feed) and jamming the weapon.


So, yeah, Loughner's 30 round magazine likely saved many lives...had he had a standard magazine, or a ten round magazine, there would have been no double feed and the shooting would have continued.

 

[rdean]