Washing machines/dryers prices up 17% under Trump (thank you, tariffs)

[Andylusion]

What? Social mobility is massive today.

And actually, I would disagree with that claim completely. The lowest classes in this country, live a standard of living much closer to that of the wealthy elite today, than at any time in the past.

By any measure that is true today.

As for killing off mid-sized business, that's true, and it's because the government has more and more regulations and controls over the market than ever before.

And managerial training... that's just flat out false. Millions of companies have training programs and reimbursement programs.

JP Morgan was responsible for Dodd-Frank...to destroy smaller firms.
Just like Microsoft killed off smaller software firms by giving stuff away.

How is that bad? If you can get software for a lower price, how is this bad?

That's like saying GM giving seat belts away for free in their cars, killed off the Tucker which was the first car to have seat belts.

How is the customer getting more products at a lower price, bad? If you are able to make a business model, that provides more products and services to the customer for a lower price, that's not a negative.

And yet, it will cause other companies that can't do that, to go out of business. Because they are not providing more services and products at a lower cost.

As for JP Morgan and Dodd-Frank..... all regulations inherently destroy competition and benefit the larger corporations.

This is inherent to all regulations. it's natural. Like rain causes things to get wet, regulations push out competition.

Even if JP Morgan had nothing to do with it... it would naturally benefit JP Morgan.

Why?

Because inherently the way regulations work, causes two results that both benefit the large corporations.

1. It reduces innovation and the ability to differentiate products and services.

How does a small or mid-size company, convince customers to use them over large companies that are well established and known? By either innovating and company up with a completely different product, or by modifying the product to be different than the large corporations product.

Regulations force companies to keep their products within a defined boundary. That makes the products from large companies, and small companies to be more like each other, and it prevents the smaller companies from innovating a new product.

Well if the small corp product, and large corp product are similar, why would you choose the small company which could be risky, because they could go out of business, over the large trusted company that is well established?

You wouldn't. You would be more likely to use the products from the large corporation, that you know and trust, sense both products are similar.

2. It levies expenses on both companies, which inherently means the larger more wealthy company, will be more easily able to afford those additional costs.

If you pass a regulation that costs half million to meet..... which company is going to be able to afford it? Your small size company that only makes a million a year? Or my mega corp that makes a hundred million a year? Or a billion a year?

Obviously my large corp will be easily able to afford the cost of meeting those regulations. Your tiny corp, is more likely to close, or sell out to me, since the cost of those regulations will eat up most of your revenue.

Business Visa legislation is not based on available labor, it's based on competent labor.
You're going to tell me that only Indians can produce the crap software that has plagued us since 1998?
Every Business Visa not from India was sent packing in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Microsoft's success caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs.
After the 2008, the laid off Business Visas weren't sent back to India.
Stores fired Americans, even those making Minimum Wage, and hired the BVs.
You know what it's like going to MACY's and being helped by someone who doesn't speak English?

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

 

[Indeependent]

JP Morgan was responsible for Dodd-Frank...to destroy smaller firms.
Just like Microsoft killed off smaller software firms by giving stuff away.

How is that bad? If you can get software for a lower price, how is this bad?

That's like saying GM giving seat belts away for free in their cars, killed off the Tucker which was the first car to have seat belts.

How is the customer getting more products at a lower price, bad? If you are able to make a business model, that provides more products and services to the customer for a lower price, that's not a negative.

And yet, it will cause other companies that can't do that, to go out of business. Because they are not providing more services and products at a lower cost.

As for JP Morgan and Dodd-Frank..... all regulations inherently destroy competition and benefit the larger corporations.

This is inherent to all regulations. it's natural. Like rain causes things to get wet, regulations push out competition.

Even if JP Morgan had nothing to do with it... it would naturally benefit JP Morgan.

Why?

Because inherently the way regulations work, causes two results that both benefit the large corporations.

1. It reduces innovation and the ability to differentiate products and services.

How does a small or mid-size company, convince customers to use them over large companies that are well established and known? By either innovating and company up with a completely different product, or by modifying the product to be different than the large corporations product.

Regulations force companies to keep their products within a defined boundary. That makes the products from large companies, and small companies to be more like each other, and it prevents the smaller companies from innovating a new product.

Well if the small corp product, and large corp product are similar, why would you choose the small company which could be risky, because they could go out of business, over the large trusted company that is well established?

You wouldn't. You would be more likely to use the products from the large corporation, that you know and trust, sense both products are similar.

2. It levies expenses on both companies, which inherently means the larger more wealthy company, will be more easily able to afford those additional costs.

If you pass a regulation that costs half million to meet..... which company is going to be able to afford it? Your small size company that only makes a million a year? Or my mega corp that makes a hundred million a year? Or a billion a year?

Obviously my large corp will be easily able to afford the cost of meeting those regulations. Your tiny corp, is more likely to close, or sell out to me, since the cost of those regulations will eat up most of your revenue.

Business Visa legislation is not based on available labor, it's based on competent labor.
You're going to tell me that only Indians can produce the crap software that has plagued us since 1998?
Every Business Visa not from India was sent packing in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Microsoft's success caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs.
After the 2008, the laid off Business Visas weren't sent back to India.
Stores fired Americans, even those making Minimum Wage, and hired the BVs.
You know what it's like going to MACY's and being helped by someone who doesn't speak English?

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

 

[Andylusion]

No, most are not complete assholes. They just have short term goals and are not that interested in their net worth or what it might be in the future. Why? Because they're not going to be around that much longer. They want to take that dream vacation while they're able to enjoy it and aren't interested in what their estate will be worth upon their death. That's not necessarily a dumb thing to do. It's all a matter of priorities and what is truly important to you.

No, the BANKERS are complete assholes. It is their professional responsibility to give decent financial advice to their customers.


Taking out a loan against the value of your home, to take a vacation is the exact opposite of that.

No, I disagree.

I don't expect the car manufacturers to give me an education on how not to kill myself or someone else, with a car. I expect that it is incumbent upon me, to be educated on how to use something, before I use it.

Beyond that, by definition a loan is a predatory concept. I'm going to give you something I have, just so you can give it back plus more.

Inherently all loans are therefore predatory. By their nature, that's what they are.

Thus, you claiming the the banks should educate customers on wise financial advice, is basically saying "Banks should tell customers to not be their customers, and not use their products".

Your expectation is beyond unreasonable, it's insane. No company of any type, is going to run around telling their customers not to use their products.

The solution is simply to spend some time with your kids, and educate them to not go into debt. Have more people like that Evil Christian Dave Ramsey, teaching students in schools, how to not borrow, and not be a slave to the banks.

If you really want to stop the banks from being predatory, then support laws the prohibit loans. Of course whenever I suggest this, suddenly the anti-bank people, become massive lending supporters. Which is almost mental illness. You want lenders.... but hate people who lend, and complain constantly. Almost mental illness the views you people have.

Funny how G-d himself, seems to have the right idea. Lending with interest is forbidden to the Jews.

I suggest you stop sucking Rush Limbaugh d*ck and brush up on Sarbanes/Oxley.

Did you actually have any kind of a point to make?

Yes, Ohio guy, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Your first good attribute is that you've confessed here a 1,000 times that you're willing to take shit from people.
Your next contention is that in your state, where a tiny percentage of computer programming is done, that tons of people have jobs.
I guaranty that they will be replaced in due time by about the age of 40 and will never be able to get another job; this has already happened to over 3,000,000 people in the US.
Just because you don't meet them doesn't mean they don't exist.
Any potential employer simply pays the local Social Security Office $60.00 bucks and finds out they were programmers and throws them out of the queue.
I had to restart my career through a friend into a non-programming position where I spend 70% of my time programming because the packages they use are fraught with errors and it costs a fortune to modify screens.

If you have a Smart Phone you know it took ATT, Citibank and Chase more than a year to make their Apps work.
Because the Indians they use suck.
And when the Indians get laid off, the Best And Brightest wind up working at Walmart.
They can't go home because they would rather commit suicide.

And if MS won't pay for programmer you think businesses one thousandth the value of MS can if they can get cheap shit labor?
Heck, I worked at software shops where they made releases several times a day because every fix caused 5 problems.

So that 55 year old Sr Software Engineer that my friend works for.... how does he fit into your "guaranty that they will be replaced in due time by about the age of 40"?

People are replaced in all careers, at all ages, constantly throughout the economy. I have no doubt that people are replaced.

The question is why. Is it because they cost too much? Is it because the market shifted away form the skills they have? Is it because they were not willing to keep learning new skills to keep up with the demand?

All of those are viable reasons to replace someone.

If you have a Smart Phone you know it took ATT, Citibank and Chase more than a year to make their Apps work.
Because the Indians they use suck.
And when the Indians get laid off, the Best And Brightest wind up working at Walmart.
They can't go home because they would rather commit suicide.

Actually that's not entirely true either. You are showing me that you don't really know these people, or that you have only had limited interaction. I know these people. I have friends who are from India. I more than a few that have returned to India.

And most do not end up working at Walmart. That's bonkers stupid talk from an idiot. You think a person with a degree is going to end up working at Walmart? You dumb as crap if you think that.

And lastly, lets say it did take more than a year for them to get their apps to work. Who cares? If the value of having that app was high enough, then the company would have paid more for higher quality programmers.

Obviously the value of the program is low, if they were willing to wait a year to get it to work.

Again, if the Indian programmers were that bad, and there was a market value to having better programmers, then the company would have gotten better programmers.

Did you see hundreds of thousands closing all their accounts with those companies because they didn't have an app for a year? No. That should tell you about how much market value those programs had.

And if MS won't pay for programmer you think businesses one thousandth the value of MS can if they can get cheap shit labor?
Heck, I worked at software shops where they made releases several times a day because every fix caused 5 problems.

Again... if you really believe what you are saying.... that there is this massive value to the programming that the market will meet.... and these companies are making garbage software..... then make your own company, staff it with Americans, and put all your competitors out of business.

Otherwise, you are just barking mad, and not putting your money where your mouth is. Anyone can say, everyone else is making junk. Takes a little more than that, to prove it, by making your company and putting the competition in bankruptcy.

If you can prove it, then do so. Go make your company, hire the top quality programmers, and prove it. Either prove it...... or shut.... up....

 

[Indeependent]

No, the BANKERS are complete assholes. It is their professional responsibility to give decent financial advice to their customers.


Taking out a loan against the value of your home, to take a vacation is the exact opposite of that.

No, I disagree.

I don't expect the car manufacturers to give me an education on how not to kill myself or someone else, with a car. I expect that it is incumbent upon me, to be educated on how to use something, before I use it.

Beyond that, by definition a loan is a predatory concept. I'm going to give you something I have, just so you can give it back plus more.

Inherently all loans are therefore predatory. By their nature, that's what they are.

Thus, you claiming the the banks should educate customers on wise financial advice, is basically saying "Banks should tell customers to not be their customers, and not use their products".

Your expectation is beyond unreasonable, it's insane. No company of any type, is going to run around telling their customers not to use their products.

The solution is simply to spend some time with your kids, and educate them to not go into debt. Have more people like that Evil Christian Dave Ramsey, teaching students in schools, how to not borrow, and not be a slave to the banks.

If you really want to stop the banks from being predatory, then support laws the prohibit loans. Of course whenever I suggest this, suddenly the anti-bank people, become massive lending supporters. Which is almost mental illness. You want lenders.... but hate people who lend, and complain constantly. Almost mental illness the views you people have.

Funny how G-d himself, seems to have the right idea. Lending with interest is forbidden to the Jews.

I suggest you stop sucking Rush Limbaugh d*ck and brush up on Sarbanes/Oxley.

Did you actually have any kind of a point to make?

Yes, Ohio guy, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Your first good attribute is that you've confessed here a 1,000 times that you're willing to take shit from people.
Your next contention is that in your state, where a tiny percentage of computer programming is done, that tons of people have jobs.
I guaranty that they will be replaced in due time by about the age of 40 and will never be able to get another job; this has already happened to over 3,000,000 people in the US.
Just because you don't meet them doesn't mean they don't exist.
Any potential employer simply pays the local Social Security Office $60.00 bucks and finds out they were programmers and throws them out of the queue.
I had to restart my career through a friend into a non-programming position where I spend 70% of my time programming because the packages they use are fraught with errors and it costs a fortune to modify screens.

If you have a Smart Phone you know it took ATT, Citibank and Chase more than a year to make their Apps work.
Because the Indians they use suck.
And when the Indians get laid off, the Best And Brightest wind up working at Walmart.
They can't go home because they would rather commit suicide.

And if MS won't pay for programmer you think businesses one thousandth the value of MS can if they can get cheap shit labor?
Heck, I worked at software shops where they made releases several times a day because every fix caused 5 problems.

So that 55 year old Sr Software Engineer that my friend works for.... how does he fit into your "guaranty that they will be replaced in due time by about the age of 40"?

People are replaced in all careers, at all ages, constantly throughout the economy. I have no doubt that people are replaced.

The question is why. Is it because they cost too much? Is it because the market shifted away form the skills they have? Is it because they were not willing to keep learning new skills to keep up with the demand?

All of those are viable reasons to replace someone.

If you have a Smart Phone you know it took ATT, Citibank and Chase more than a year to make their Apps work.
Because the Indians they use suck.
And when the Indians get laid off, the Best And Brightest wind up working at Walmart.
They can't go home because they would rather commit suicide.

Actually that's not entirely true either. You are showing me that you don't really know these people, or that you have only had limited interaction. I know these people. I have friends who are from India. I more than a few that have returned to India.

And most do not end up working at Walmart. That's bonkers stupid talk from an idiot. You think a person with a degree is going to end up working at Walmart? You dumb as crap if you think that.

And lastly, lets say it did take more than a year for them to get their apps to work. Who cares? If the value of having that app was high enough, then the company would have paid more for higher quality programmers.

Obviously the value of the program is low, if they were willing to wait a year to get it to work.

Again, if the Indian programmers were that bad, and there was a market value to having better programmers, then the company would have gotten better programmers.

Did you see hundreds of thousands closing all their accounts with those companies because they didn't have an app for a year? No. That should tell you about how much market value those programs had.

And if MS won't pay for programmer you think businesses one thousandth the value of MS can if they can get cheap shit labor?
Heck, I worked at software shops where they made releases several times a day because every fix caused 5 problems.

Again... if you really believe what you are saying.... that there is this massive value to the programming that the market will meet.... and these companies are making garbage software..... then make your own company, staff it with Americans, and put all your competitors out of business.

Otherwise, you are just barking mad, and not putting your money where your mouth is. Anyone can say, everyone else is making junk. Takes a little more than that, to prove it, by making your company and putting the competition in bankruptcy.

If you can prove it, then do so. Go make your company, hire the top quality programmers, and prove it. Either prove it...... or shut.... up....

You will never have the NYC Wall Street experience I had or be able to go back to GW's years where he eradicated the non-Indian programming community.
Developers from all over the world were sent packing; many with advanced degrees who developed fantastic financial applications the first time around.
President Trump ran on this and a few other issues.
It is currently very difficult for H1-Bs to stay and get it as Sessions is keeping his long lasting promise to end this joke.

To be honest with you I put thought into joining this sham.
But I'm not an atheist and I try to avoid lying about anything.

 

[Andylusion]

How is that bad? If you can get software for a lower price, how is this bad?

That's like saying GM giving seat belts away for free in their cars, killed off the Tucker which was the first car to have seat belts.

How is the customer getting more products at a lower price, bad? If you are able to make a business model, that provides more products and services to the customer for a lower price, that's not a negative.

And yet, it will cause other companies that can't do that, to go out of business. Because they are not providing more services and products at a lower cost.

As for JP Morgan and Dodd-Frank..... all regulations inherently destroy competition and benefit the larger corporations.

This is inherent to all regulations. it's natural. Like rain causes things to get wet, regulations push out competition.

Even if JP Morgan had nothing to do with it... it would naturally benefit JP Morgan.

Why?

Because inherently the way regulations work, causes two results that both benefit the large corporations.

1. It reduces innovation and the ability to differentiate products and services.

How does a small or mid-size company, convince customers to use them over large companies that are well established and known? By either innovating and company up with a completely different product, or by modifying the product to be different than the large corporations product.

Regulations force companies to keep their products within a defined boundary. That makes the products from large companies, and small companies to be more like each other, and it prevents the smaller companies from innovating a new product.

Well if the small corp product, and large corp product are similar, why would you choose the small company which could be risky, because they could go out of business, over the large trusted company that is well established?

You wouldn't. You would be more likely to use the products from the large corporation, that you know and trust, sense both products are similar.

2. It levies expenses on both companies, which inherently means the larger more wealthy company, will be more easily able to afford those additional costs.

If you pass a regulation that costs half million to meet..... which company is going to be able to afford it? Your small size company that only makes a million a year? Or my mega corp that makes a hundred million a year? Or a billion a year?

Obviously my large corp will be easily able to afford the cost of meeting those regulations. Your tiny corp, is more likely to close, or sell out to me, since the cost of those regulations will eat up most of your revenue.

Business Visa legislation is not based on available labor, it's based on competent labor.
You're going to tell me that only Indians can produce the crap software that has plagued us since 1998?
Every Business Visa not from India was sent packing in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Microsoft's success caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs.
After the 2008, the laid off Business Visas weren't sent back to India.
Stores fired Americans, even those making Minimum Wage, and hired the BVs.
You know what it's like going to MACY's and being helped by someone who doesn't speak English?

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

 

[Indeependent]

Business Visa legislation is not based on available labor, it's based on competent labor.
You're going to tell me that only Indians can produce the crap software that has plagued us since 1998?
Every Business Visa not from India was sent packing in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Microsoft's success caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs.
After the 2008, the laid off Business Visas weren't sent back to India.
Stores fired Americans, even those making Minimum Wage, and hired the BVs.
You know what it's like going to MACY's and being helped by someone who doesn't speak English?

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

You have smaller branches where the non-programming positions are not necessarily BVs.
And you actually believe everything you read.
You do realize that when that position "isn't filled" the company will request an H1-B.
They're called Ghost Jobs.
Check for that same position in 3 months; it will still be open.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We need the EU, Canada, Mexico, and the TPP countries.

More than they need us? I don't think so.

Last week I made a delivery to one of our customers we have been servicing for several years. The shipper told me I was not allowed to wait in my truck while getting loaded any longer; I must wait inside.

Slightly insulted at his hint I am not to be trusted in my truck while being loaded, he felt compelled to explain: he stated they got a huge new customer, and their new customer created guidelines for their shipping department. Regardless whether the shipper was dealing with their goods or not, they insisted that all drivers must be out of their trucks while loading or unloading.

We had another customer do a similar thing. They too created guidelines as to how the shipping department conduct their business whether the trucks are involved with their freight or not, and the company caved in.

I thought to myself, regardless how much business they gave me, I would tell them to F off. Certainly I could enforce guidelines on their freight or freight carriers, but not tell me how to run my shipping department for all.

It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Our second customer I mentioned makes us stop at the gate, tell them the order number and trailer, makes us come inside to sign a login sheet, and forces us to wait inside or drop the trailer while getting loaded or unloaded, all because Walmart made the rules.

The point I'm trying to make is this: your largest customers have a lot of leverage. The US is the largest customer of many of our trading partners. Sure, they will respond harshly to our tariffs, but given time, they will likely see a huge loss in exports and perhaps finally cave in.

There is one huge massive failure in this equation.

Politics. Yeah, when you are dealing with company between company, you are right, the person buying has leverage.

But country between country, that isn't the case. I just isn't. Simply put, there is no leverage there, that you think there is.

Mainly because you are dealing with politicians. Remember world war 1? There were tons of people throughout the world, who were literally writing books that international trade made war impossible. There was no way that Germany would go to war, because they imported so much of their materials from all the countries that they would go to war with.... specifically France.

But when you talk about fighting between nations, for someone to step back and acquiesce to someone else, makes them look weak. Standing firm, even when it wreaks economic damage, looks like strength to the public. You end up gaining support for destroying your economy, and losing support for gaining your economy.

If you want a modern example, just look at Russia. The wide spread sanctions against Russia, have utterly ruined their booming economy, and yet they are still fighting in the Ukraine, even now.
In the Trenches of the War in Ukraine, I See History Repeating Itself

If they did cave, the results would be that they would lose support of the public, and the government will fall.

We saw this in Greece. The Right-wing government agreed to the terms of the bailout, and From 2012 to 2014, the economy of Greece was on course for a steady recovery. Then the public voted against the government, and elected a Left-wing government, on the promise they would stick it to the EU, and ignore the requirements of the bailout. The result was the economy went on a massive dive, until the government realized they were on the verge of a complete default.

You want another example? The UK and the EU. The rallying cry for most of the Brexit supporters, was that we don't want Brussels dictating our national policy. Doesn't matter if those policies were ultimately good. What matters is, foreign people shouldn't be telling us what to do, and we're going to leave the EU to prevent that. Their economy had a massive (although short-term) crash from that policy, and only was short-term because nothing has happened yet.

People and governments, routinely will vote and push positions that are against their economic interest, in the name of maintaining their control over their policy.

So the idea that you are going to dictate policy to Mexico, or China, and they are going to cave, is simply not true.

I'm just saying.... it simply isn't true. They will not cave.

By the way, the US was a leader in trade before the great depression. Our tariffs on imported goods, had no leverage against the rest of the world, which only dug in its heals, and put in place retaliatory tariffs.... which is exactly what we are seeing today.

While I'm no fan of tariffs, I think in this new age of trading it will simply take time to weigh the results. I may be wrong but I may be right. I think our economy is strong enough for a minor trade war, but not so much for other countries.

Yes, politics is in play, and it depends on who can suffer the most damage. After all, when was the last time we didn't have a trade deficit? I think Trump just wants everybody to play by the same rules is all. I don't think it's all that much to ask for.

Here's the deal, as I see it.

The key, as you stated is, "minor trade war". As long as it stays minor, then it will remain minor.

Our economy right now is diversified enough to handle it. If you keep things limited to just steel and aluminum, we might be able to survive this, because unlike the 1930s, our entire economy isn't built on manufacturing, primarily in steel and aluminum.

What is going to kill us, is if the rest of the world retaliates with tariffs on all kinds of American goods, and that prompts Trump to equally tariff all kinds of goods, and then you will be seeing some devastating consequences.

The only good side is, most of the world (not all), is pretty on board with the idea that trade wars and protectionism is bad.

Also, I think the Congress is on the verge of passing legislation to prevent Trump from unilaterally imposing protectionism.

So between the two, we might be able to stave off the damage.

I just don't know if tariffs will be a total loss to the US. First of all, it might get some countries back to the table to discuss more equitable trading standards. Secondly, higher priced foreign products gives our US made products a better chance at selling in the stores. The more US goods sold in stores, the better for our economy.

Yes, it could be a push, but what if we end up a little ahead in the end? I really just don't know and to be honest, I don't think anybody does since this has never been tried on such a large scale before. Yes, Bush put tariffs on steel when he was in office, but when the results were tariffs on our exports, he backed down faster than he went in. There was no way to evaluate the final outcome.

 

[Indeependent]

Business Visa legislation is not based on available labor, it's based on competent labor.
You're going to tell me that only Indians can produce the crap software that has plagued us since 1998?
Every Business Visa not from India was sent packing in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Microsoft's success caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs.
After the 2008, the laid off Business Visas weren't sent back to India.
Stores fired Americans, even those making Minimum Wage, and hired the BVs.
You know what it's like going to MACY's and being helped by someone who doesn't speak English?

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

The Dream Act has within it 2 provisions from 2 Bills...
House Bill HR633
Senate Bill S744

The provisions declare that the US has a void in skilled labor in 10 professions...
Among those professions are...
Physicians
Accountants
Attorneys
Electrical Engineers
Mechanical Engineers
Nurse Practitioners

Each of these categories requires no less than 160,000 Business Visas per annum.
Yeah, no problem...a minimum of 1,600,000 Business Visas per annum won't effect our economy at all.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

The Dream Act has within it 2 provisions from 2 Bills...
House Bill HR633
Senate Bill S744

The provisions declare that the US has a void in skilled labor in 10 professions...
Among those professions are...
Physicians
Accountants
Attorneys
Electrical Engineers
Mechanical Engineers
Nurse Practitioners

Each of these categories requires no less than 160,000 Business Visas per annum.
Yeah, no problem...a minimum of 1,600,000 Business Visas per annum won't effect our economy at all.

Wait a minute, attorneys? We have a lawyer around every corner in this country. Any downtown has huge buildings full of lawyers. Because of competition, they advertise on highway signs, on the side of busses, commercials on television. I always thought the problem was the US has way too many attorneys.

 

[Indeependent]

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

The Dream Act has within it 2 provisions from 2 Bills...
House Bill HR633
Senate Bill S744

The provisions declare that the US has a void in skilled labor in 10 professions...
Among those professions are...
Physicians
Accountants
Attorneys
Electrical Engineers
Mechanical Engineers
Nurse Practitioners

Each of these categories requires no less than 160,000 Business Visas per annum.
Yeah, no problem...a minimum of 1,600,000 Business Visas per annum won't effect our economy at all.

Wait a minute, attorneys? We have a lawyer around every corner in this country. Any downtown has huge buildings full of lawyers. Because of competition, they advertise on highway signs, on the side of busses, commercials on television. I always thought the problem was the US has way too many attorneys.

Tell that to Big Tech that wants $15.00/hour attorneys.

 

[Marion Morrison]

I looked at a new washer today. It looked like it had good features. It was $420


The mil of metal on the box was not thick enough for me.

I went to take my old washer to the dump, and the "box" part came off, and the tub was still standing there. That thing worked for 25 years, with a stick wedged in the lid switch.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I looked at a new washer today. It looked like it had good features. It was $420


The mil of metal on the box was not thick enough for me.

I went to take my old washer to the dump, and the "box" part came off, and the tub was still standing there. That thing worked for 25 years, with a stick wedged in the lid switch.

If the tariffs kicked in and nobody told the public about it, people wouldn't even question it. While we Americans are obsessed with price, the intrinsic costs escape us because we don't care. Take green for instance. Every single product you buy today has some intrinsic global warming cost. Why aren't Americans in an outrage over this? Because they don't know it's there.

As a person in the transportation industry, I can tell you "green" costs us billions per year. We have to pass that loss to our customers who in return, need to charge more for their products you and I buy every day.

Did the MSM ever bring up or report on these costs? Hell no. That's why nobody complains.

 

[Andylusion]

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

The Dream Act has within it 2 provisions from 2 Bills...
House Bill HR633
Senate Bill S744

The provisions declare that the US has a void in skilled labor in 10 professions...
Among those professions are...
Physicians
Accountants
Attorneys
Electrical Engineers
Mechanical Engineers
Nurse Practitioners

Each of these categories requires no less than 160,000 Business Visas per annum.
Yeah, no problem...a minimum of 1,600,000 Business Visas per annum won't effect our economy at all.

Ok so? What part of anything you said, changed any part of what I said, or even applied to it?

You said there were no programming jobs in ohio paying over $105K a year. I posted that I found dozens, and listed off the large tech firms hiring programmers in Columbus Ohio.

You responded with the Dream Act.

 

[Andylusion]

Funny how the left-wing supports illegal immigration constantly, but then screams about legal immigration later.

I know dozens of employed American software coders. The idea that somehow Indians have completely replaced Americans, is false. I know 3 companies right now.... right NOW, that have software engineers and none of them are Indian. All are American.

In a few words, get over yourself. If you don't have a job as a software programmer, it's because you suck. Good programmers are in high demand, even if you are American. If you think Microsofts hiring Indians is so bad, then join another company, and put them out of business. Make a better product, if you think you can.

Trust me, many companies are begging to have an alternative to Microsoft. The market is there, if you can actually come up with a solution.

Again, if you don't like the store's employees, then go somewhere else. If you think people are willing to pay a premium to have American workers, then open your own store, hire only Americans, and see how that works for you.

We both know how that will turn out, because we both know if there was a market value to it, then someone wanting to make billions, would have already opened a store with only Americans, or a software company with only Americans. The fact it hasn't happened, because the theory isn't true.

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

You have smaller branches where the non-programming positions are not necessarily BVs.
And you actually believe everything you read.
You do realize that when that position "isn't filled" the company will request an H1-B.
They're called Ghost Jobs.
Check for that same position in 3 months; it will still be open.

I'm confused by the responses I'm getting from people.

What part of "I have a personal friend who applied for and got a programming job that is paying $100K", seems to indicate these are 'ghost jobs'?

You are telling me that absolutely everyone in the world is lying to me, but you? I don't think so.

 

[Indeependent]

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

The Dream Act has within it 2 provisions from 2 Bills...
House Bill HR633
Senate Bill S744

The provisions declare that the US has a void in skilled labor in 10 professions...
Among those professions are...
Physicians
Accountants
Attorneys
Electrical Engineers
Mechanical Engineers
Nurse Practitioners

Each of these categories requires no less than 160,000 Business Visas per annum.
Yeah, no problem...a minimum of 1,600,000 Business Visas per annum won't effect our economy at all.

Ok so? What part of anything you said, changed any part of what I said, or even applied to it?

You said there were no programming jobs in ohio paying over $105K a year. I posted that I found dozens, and listed off the large tech firms hiring programmers in Columbus Ohio.

You responded with the Dream Act.

And I told you they are "Ghost Jobs".
They will not be filled for several months and then the companies will apply for H1-Bs.
You not stupid but you're very naive.

 

[Indeependent]

I presume these programmers are not in NY or NJ.
I know many people in Nassau County who are in IT but are using packages, not actually programming; and making shit money.

Blue border states are Business Visas havens.
Also keep in mind that there are over 3,000,000 H1-Bs in the US; many of them were fired due to the Housing crash and took jobs away from Black Americans.

I'll make you a bet...make up an software developer resume and post it on any job site using your American name.
I guarantee you won't get a call.
Almost everyone I know who is a programmer has a Math or hard science degree, not a CIS degree.
So get over yourself.

Saying that there is a problem in a specific state, to me is a non-argument. Throughout all human history, people moved to find jobs. If you happen to live in a state where there are (apparently) no programming jobs....... MOVE YOUR BUTT. Go where the jobs are.

Ok, well already know that's false, because I posted that I was learning programming for database on linked in, and had a guy call me up to do the job, and I had to turn him down, because I was only learning it, not that I could do it yet.

So unless you think "Andrew" is an Indian name, it didn't stop them from trying to recruit me. Also I know people who work at software firms, and their Sr Software Engineers are all Americans.

Bottom line.... if you can't find a job as a software programmer as an American in this country, the problem is in your mirror.

You are wrong, Sir.

Like I said, "Ohio".
You are not going to find a high end, 100+K, full-time, business application developer position in Ohio.
These jobs are in the big cities and they very rarely hire non-Indians.

What are you smoking? You apparently know nothing about programming jobs in columbus Ohio. We have IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, Battelle, Nationwide, Chase, Amazon just came in, we have AT&T, and the list goes on.

I just punched into Indeed, Columbus Ohio Programming 105K minimum salary, and got two pages of results.

No, you are full of crap. You make up whatever you want, and get all bent and crazy about your own fictional reality, that doesn't exist.

You have smaller branches where the non-programming positions are not necessarily BVs.
And you actually believe everything you read.
You do realize that when that position "isn't filled" the company will request an H1-B.
They're called Ghost Jobs.
Check for that same position in 3 months; it will still be open.

I'm confused by the responses I'm getting from people.

What part of "I have a personal friend who applied for and got a programming job that is paying $100K", seems to indicate these are 'ghost jobs'?

You are telling me that absolutely everyone in the world is lying to me, but you? I don't think so.

What degree does your friend have?
I know mathematicians and engineers who get these jobs.
They usually play the role or project leader or manager and very rarely write code.
I know dozens of people are Wall Street who have these jobs and they have to have phone meetings with the Indians in India.
These guys want to rip their hair out.

And to tell you the truth, if Sessions is succeeding in making it virtually impossible to haul in the slaves, I'm thrilled.

 

[Flopper]

Wanna buy laundry equipment for your home? Good luck paying more than you used to, thanks to Donald J. Trump and his tariffs.
In this thread, we will come up with ideas as to how to lower said prices again:
Opinion | Trump’s tariffs are already backfiring

Today Canadian tariffs on US imports go into effect on a lot more than just washing machines, steel products, aluminum products, and everything from Maple syrup to ball point pens. 25% EU tariffs have gone into effect on bourbon, Harleys, as well as agricultural products like orange and cranberry juice; to steel and aluminium items; to manufactured goods, such as makeup, clothes and boats.

And the insanity continues as governments taxes the most successful producers to protect the least successful and we all end up with poorer quality at a higher price.

Good job, Mr Trump. Keep it up and we will soon be in a recession.

Every pushback from our trading "partners" validates Trump's policy.

Wanna buy laundry equipment for your home? Good luck paying more than you used to, thanks to Donald J. Trump and his tariffs.
In this thread, we will come up with ideas as to how to lower said prices again:
Opinion | Trump’s tariffs are already backfiring

Today Canadian tariffs on US imports go into effect on a lot more than just washing machines, steel products, aluminum products, and everything from Maple syrup to ball point pens. 25% EU tariffs have gone into effect on bourbon, Harleys, as well as agricultural products like orange and cranberry juice; to steel and aluminium items; to manufactured goods, such as makeup, clothes and boats.

And the insanity continues as governments taxes the most successful producers to protect the least successful and we all end up with poorer quality at a higher price.

Good job, Mr Trump. Keep it up and we will soon be in a recession.

Every pushback from our trading "partners" validates Trump's policy.

Trump has a policy?

That was a cowardly dodge of my point. And you know it.


Every pushback from our trading "partners" validates Trump's policy.

How about explaining how a pushback validates Trump policy and I'll comment on it.

 

[Flopper]

We need the EU, Canada, Mexico, and the TPP countries.

More than they need us? I don't think so.

Last week I made a delivery to one of our customers we have been servicing for several years. The shipper told me I was not allowed to wait in my truck while getting loaded any longer; I must wait inside.

Slightly insulted at his hint I am not to be trusted in my truck while being loaded, he felt compelled to explain: he stated they got a huge new customer, and their new customer created guidelines for their shipping department. Regardless whether the shipper was dealing with their goods or not, they insisted that all drivers must be out of their trucks while loading or unloading.

We had another customer do a similar thing. They too created guidelines as to how the shipping department conduct their business whether the trucks are involved with their freight or not, and the company caved in.

I thought to myself, regardless how much business they gave me, I would tell them to F off. Certainly I could enforce guidelines on their freight or freight carriers, but not tell me how to run my shipping department for all.

It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Our second customer I mentioned makes us stop at the gate, tell them the order number and trailer, makes us come inside to sign a login sheet, and forces us to wait inside or drop the trailer while getting loaded or unloaded, all because Walmart made the rules.

The point I'm trying to make is this: your largest customers have a lot of leverage. The US is the largest customer of many of our trading partners. Sure, they will respond harshly to our tariffs, but given time, they will likely see a huge loss in exports and perhaps finally cave in.

There is one huge massive failure in this equation.

Politics. Yeah, when you are dealing with company between company, you are right, the person buying has leverage.

But country between country, that isn't the case. I just isn't. Simply put, there is no leverage there, that you think there is.

Mainly because you are dealing with politicians. Remember world war 1? There were tons of people throughout the world, who were literally writing books that international trade made war impossible. There was no way that Germany would go to war, because they imported so much of their materials from all the countries that they would go to war with.... specifically France.

But when you talk about fighting between nations, for someone to step back and acquiesce to someone else, makes them look weak. Standing firm, even when it wreaks economic damage, looks like strength to the public. You end up gaining support for destroying your economy, and losing support for gaining your economy.

If you want a modern example, just look at Russia. The wide spread sanctions against Russia, have utterly ruined their booming economy, and yet they are still fighting in the Ukraine, even now.
In the Trenches of the War in Ukraine, I See History Repeating Itself

If they did cave, the results would be that they would lose support of the public, and the government will fall.

We saw this in Greece. The Right-wing government agreed to the terms of the bailout, and From 2012 to 2014, the economy of Greece was on course for a steady recovery. Then the public voted against the government, and elected a Left-wing government, on the promise they would stick it to the EU, and ignore the requirements of the bailout. The result was the economy went on a massive dive, until the government realized they were on the verge of a complete default.

You want another example? The UK and the EU. The rallying cry for most of the Brexit supporters, was that we don't want Brussels dictating our national policy. Doesn't matter if those policies were ultimately good. What matters is, foreign people shouldn't be telling us what to do, and we're going to leave the EU to prevent that. Their economy had a massive (although short-term) crash from that policy, and only was short-term because nothing has happened yet.

People and governments, routinely will vote and push positions that are against their economic interest, in the name of maintaining their control over their policy.

So the idea that you are going to dictate policy to Mexico, or China, and they are going to cave, is simply not true.

I'm just saying.... it simply isn't true. They will not cave.

By the way, the US was a leader in trade before the great depression. Our tariffs on imported goods, had no leverage against the rest of the world, which only dug in its heals, and put in place retaliatory tariffs.... which is exactly what we are seeing today.

While I'm no fan of tariffs, I think in this new age of trading it will simply take time to weigh the results. I may be wrong but I may be right. I think our economy is strong enough for a minor trade war, but not so much for other countries.

Yes, politics is in play, and it depends on who can suffer the most damage. After all, when was the last time we didn't have a trade deficit? I think Trump just wants everybody to play by the same rules is all. I don't think it's all that much to ask for.

Here's the deal, as I see it.

The key, as you stated is, "minor trade war". As long as it stays minor, then it will remain minor.

Our economy right now is diversified enough to handle it. If you keep things limited to just steel and aluminum, we might be able to survive this, because unlike the 1930s, our entire economy isn't built on manufacturing, primarily in steel and aluminum.

What is going to kill us, is if the rest of the world retaliates with tariffs on all kinds of American goods, and that prompts Trump to equally tariff all kinds of goods, and then you will be seeing some devastating consequences.

The only good side is, most of the world (not all), is pretty on board with the idea that trade wars and protectionism is bad.

Also, I think the Congress is on the verge of passing legislation to prevent Trump from unilaterally imposing protectionism.

So between the two, we might be able to stave off the damage.

I just don't know if tariffs will be a total loss to the US. First of all, it might get some countries back to the table to discuss more equitable trading standards. Secondly, higher priced foreign products gives our US made products a better chance at selling in the stores. The more US goods sold in stores, the better for our economy.

Yes, it could be a push, but what if we end up a little ahead in the end? I really just don't know and to be honest, I don't think anybody does since this has never been tried on such a large scale before. Yes, Bush put tariffs on steel when he was in office, but when the results were tariffs on our exports, he backed down faster than he went in. There was no way to evaluate the final outcome.

First, they have always been at the table. Trade negotiators are always negotiating something.

Tariffs have never made much sense but make even less today. For example, steel producers in the US once supplied practically all the needs of steel fabricators in the US so a tariff on imported steel helped the steel producers and did not effect the fabricators. But today the fabricators buy specialized steel products abroad that are not even made by US producers. So the tariffs helps big steel and hurt most smaller fabricators. This is the sort thing that occurs throughout the economy. You can't put a tariff on a major import without a lot of unintended consequences.

However, IMHO, the worst thing about tariffs is we have the government determining who benefits and who suffers instead of the free market.

Tariff wars can start very rapidly however, they tend to end very slowly because trade negotiation are always very slow because there are so many different political interest involved. The Trade war that Trump has initiated may well continue to escalate and last for years.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

More than they need us? I don't think so.

Last week I made a delivery to one of our customers we have been servicing for several years. The shipper told me I was not allowed to wait in my truck while getting loaded any longer; I must wait inside.

Slightly insulted at his hint I am not to be trusted in my truck while being loaded, he felt compelled to explain: he stated they got a huge new customer, and their new customer created guidelines for their shipping department. Regardless whether the shipper was dealing with their goods or not, they insisted that all drivers must be out of their trucks while loading or unloading.

We had another customer do a similar thing. They too created guidelines as to how the shipping department conduct their business whether the trucks are involved with their freight or not, and the company caved in.

I thought to myself, regardless how much business they gave me, I would tell them to F off. Certainly I could enforce guidelines on their freight or freight carriers, but not tell me how to run my shipping department for all.

It doesn't work that way unfortunately. Our second customer I mentioned makes us stop at the gate, tell them the order number and trailer, makes us come inside to sign a login sheet, and forces us to wait inside or drop the trailer while getting loaded or unloaded, all because Walmart made the rules.

The point I'm trying to make is this: your largest customers have a lot of leverage. The US is the largest customer of many of our trading partners. Sure, they will respond harshly to our tariffs, but given time, they will likely see a huge loss in exports and perhaps finally cave in.

There is one huge massive failure in this equation.

Politics. Yeah, when you are dealing with company between company, you are right, the person buying has leverage.

But country between country, that isn't the case. I just isn't. Simply put, there is no leverage there, that you think there is.

Mainly because you are dealing with politicians. Remember world war 1? There were tons of people throughout the world, who were literally writing books that international trade made war impossible. There was no way that Germany would go to war, because they imported so much of their materials from all the countries that they would go to war with.... specifically France.

But when you talk about fighting between nations, for someone to step back and acquiesce to someone else, makes them look weak. Standing firm, even when it wreaks economic damage, looks like strength to the public. You end up gaining support for destroying your economy, and losing support for gaining your economy.

If you want a modern example, just look at Russia. The wide spread sanctions against Russia, have utterly ruined their booming economy, and yet they are still fighting in the Ukraine, even now.
In the Trenches of the War in Ukraine, I See History Repeating Itself

If they did cave, the results would be that they would lose support of the public, and the government will fall.

We saw this in Greece. The Right-wing government agreed to the terms of the bailout, and From 2012 to 2014, the economy of Greece was on course for a steady recovery. Then the public voted against the government, and elected a Left-wing government, on the promise they would stick it to the EU, and ignore the requirements of the bailout. The result was the economy went on a massive dive, until the government realized they were on the verge of a complete default.

You want another example? The UK and the EU. The rallying cry for most of the Brexit supporters, was that we don't want Brussels dictating our national policy. Doesn't matter if those policies were ultimately good. What matters is, foreign people shouldn't be telling us what to do, and we're going to leave the EU to prevent that. Their economy had a massive (although short-term) crash from that policy, and only was short-term because nothing has happened yet.

People and governments, routinely will vote and push positions that are against their economic interest, in the name of maintaining their control over their policy.

So the idea that you are going to dictate policy to Mexico, or China, and they are going to cave, is simply not true.

I'm just saying.... it simply isn't true. They will not cave.

By the way, the US was a leader in trade before the great depression. Our tariffs on imported goods, had no leverage against the rest of the world, which only dug in its heals, and put in place retaliatory tariffs.... which is exactly what we are seeing today.

While I'm no fan of tariffs, I think in this new age of trading it will simply take time to weigh the results. I may be wrong but I may be right. I think our economy is strong enough for a minor trade war, but not so much for other countries.

Yes, politics is in play, and it depends on who can suffer the most damage. After all, when was the last time we didn't have a trade deficit? I think Trump just wants everybody to play by the same rules is all. I don't think it's all that much to ask for.

Here's the deal, as I see it.

The key, as you stated is, "minor trade war". As long as it stays minor, then it will remain minor.

Our economy right now is diversified enough to handle it. If you keep things limited to just steel and aluminum, we might be able to survive this, because unlike the 1930s, our entire economy isn't built on manufacturing, primarily in steel and aluminum.

What is going to kill us, is if the rest of the world retaliates with tariffs on all kinds of American goods, and that prompts Trump to equally tariff all kinds of goods, and then you will be seeing some devastating consequences.

The only good side is, most of the world (not all), is pretty on board with the idea that trade wars and protectionism is bad.

Also, I think the Congress is on the verge of passing legislation to prevent Trump from unilaterally imposing protectionism.

So between the two, we might be able to stave off the damage.

I just don't know if tariffs will be a total loss to the US. First of all, it might get some countries back to the table to discuss more equitable trading standards. Secondly, higher priced foreign products gives our US made products a better chance at selling in the stores. The more US goods sold in stores, the better for our economy.

Yes, it could be a push, but what if we end up a little ahead in the end? I really just don't know and to be honest, I don't think anybody does since this has never been tried on such a large scale before. Yes, Bush put tariffs on steel when he was in office, but when the results were tariffs on our exports, he backed down faster than he went in. There was no way to evaluate the final outcome.

First, they have always been at the table. Trade negotiators are always negotiating something.

Tariffs have never made much sense but make even less today. For example, steel producers in the US once supplied practically all the needs of steel fabricators in the US so a tariff on imported steel helped the steel producers and did not effect the fabricators. But today the fabricators buy specialized steel products abroad that are not even made by US producers. So the tariffs helps big steel and hurt most smaller fabricators. This is the sort thing that occurs throughout the economy. You can't put a tariff on a major import without a lot of unintended consequences.

However, IMHO, the worst thing about tariffs is we have the government determining who benefits and who suffers instead of the free market.

Tariff wars can start very rapidly however, they tend to end very slowly because trade negotiation are always very slow because there are so many different political interest involved. The Trade war that Trump has initiated may well continue to escalate and last for years.

Sure, it could do that, but let's give him a chance and see how it works out.

Tariffs are something that can be rescinded in two minutes. If Trump was a professional politician, I may be more weary. But Trump is a businessman. This is a subject he's studied for quite sometime. As a businessman who has traded internationally, I trust his experience.

Again, not crazy about tariffs, but on the other hand, open to new ideas; ideas that few if any have tried.

 

[Flopper]

There is one huge massive failure in this equation.

Politics. Yeah, when you are dealing with company between company, you are right, the person buying has leverage.

But country between country, that isn't the case. I just isn't. Simply put, there is no leverage there, that you think there is.

Mainly because you are dealing with politicians. Remember world war 1? There were tons of people throughout the world, who were literally writing books that international trade made war impossible. There was no way that Germany would go to war, because they imported so much of their materials from all the countries that they would go to war with.... specifically France.

But when you talk about fighting between nations, for someone to step back and acquiesce to someone else, makes them look weak. Standing firm, even when it wreaks economic damage, looks like strength to the public. You end up gaining support for destroying your economy, and losing support for gaining your economy.

If you want a modern example, just look at Russia. The wide spread sanctions against Russia, have utterly ruined their booming economy, and yet they are still fighting in the Ukraine, even now.
In the Trenches of the War in Ukraine, I See History Repeating Itself

If they did cave, the results would be that they would lose support of the public, and the government will fall.

We saw this in Greece. The Right-wing government agreed to the terms of the bailout, and From 2012 to 2014, the economy of Greece was on course for a steady recovery. Then the public voted against the government, and elected a Left-wing government, on the promise they would stick it to the EU, and ignore the requirements of the bailout. The result was the economy went on a massive dive, until the government realized they were on the verge of a complete default.

You want another example? The UK and the EU. The rallying cry for most of the Brexit supporters, was that we don't want Brussels dictating our national policy. Doesn't matter if those policies were ultimately good. What matters is, foreign people shouldn't be telling us what to do, and we're going to leave the EU to prevent that. Their economy had a massive (although short-term) crash from that policy, and only was short-term because nothing has happened yet.

People and governments, routinely will vote and push positions that are against their economic interest, in the name of maintaining their control over their policy.

So the idea that you are going to dictate policy to Mexico, or China, and they are going to cave, is simply not true.

I'm just saying.... it simply isn't true. They will not cave.

By the way, the US was a leader in trade before the great depression. Our tariffs on imported goods, had no leverage against the rest of the world, which only dug in its heals, and put in place retaliatory tariffs.... which is exactly what we are seeing today.

While I'm no fan of tariffs, I think in this new age of trading it will simply take time to weigh the results. I may be wrong but I may be right. I think our economy is strong enough for a minor trade war, but not so much for other countries.

Yes, politics is in play, and it depends on who can suffer the most damage. After all, when was the last time we didn't have a trade deficit? I think Trump just wants everybody to play by the same rules is all. I don't think it's all that much to ask for.

Here's the deal, as I see it.

The key, as you stated is, "minor trade war". As long as it stays minor, then it will remain minor.

Our economy right now is diversified enough to handle it. If you keep things limited to just steel and aluminum, we might be able to survive this, because unlike the 1930s, our entire economy isn't built on manufacturing, primarily in steel and aluminum.

What is going to kill us, is if the rest of the world retaliates with tariffs on all kinds of American goods, and that prompts Trump to equally tariff all kinds of goods, and then you will be seeing some devastating consequences.

The only good side is, most of the world (not all), is pretty on board with the idea that trade wars and protectionism is bad.

Also, I think the Congress is on the verge of passing legislation to prevent Trump from unilaterally imposing protectionism.

So between the two, we might be able to stave off the damage.

I just don't know if tariffs will be a total loss to the US. First of all, it might get some countries back to the table to discuss more equitable trading standards. Secondly, higher priced foreign products gives our US made products a better chance at selling in the stores. The more US goods sold in stores, the better for our economy.

Yes, it could be a push, but what if we end up a little ahead in the end? I really just don't know and to be honest, I don't think anybody does since this has never been tried on such a large scale before. Yes, Bush put tariffs on steel when he was in office, but when the results were tariffs on our exports, he backed down faster than he went in. There was no way to evaluate the final outcome.

First, they have always been at the table. Trade negotiators are always negotiating something.

Tariffs have never made much sense but make even less today. For example, steel producers in the US once supplied practically all the needs of steel fabricators in the US so a tariff on imported steel helped the steel producers and did not effect the fabricators. But today the fabricators buy specialized steel products abroad that are not even made by US producers. So the tariffs helps big steel and hurt most smaller fabricators. This is the sort thing that occurs throughout the economy. You can't put a tariff on a major import without a lot of unintended consequences.

However, IMHO, the worst thing about tariffs is we have the government determining who benefits and who suffers instead of the free market.

Tariff wars can start very rapidly however, they tend to end very slowly because trade negotiation are always very slow because there are so many different political interest involved. The Trade war that Trump has initiated may well continue to escalate and last for years.

Sure, it could do that, but let's give him a chance and see how it works out.

Tariffs are something that can be rescinded in two minutes. If Trump was a professional politician, I may be more weary. But Trump is a businessman. This is a subject he's studied for quite sometime. As a businessman who has traded internationally, I trust his experience.

Again, not crazy about tariffs, but on the other hand, open to new ideas; ideas that few if any have tried.

It's true that a president can certainly abolish tariffs he has applied any time provide he's willing to eat crow.

However, once tariffs are applied on thousands of products across the nation, there are going to be winners and looser that are going to be exerting political pressures on both the president and congress. It is no longer a business decision it is political decision. Abolish these tariffs and you loose support in these states. Cut those tariffs and loose support in another area. Do nothing and lose support someplace else. Since the opposition has applied tariffs also, they face political pressures also in their country meaning they may not be willing suspend tariffs at all or the ones we are most interested in. It get's very complicated and political aspects rule the day. This is why a lot of very wise economist say, don't start trade wars, nobody really wins.

It is not a zero sum game. Often, everybody loses.

BTW I don't know of anything Trump has done in international trade. No, opening a hotel is not international trade. I bet the closest Trump has every got to International trade is course work at the Wharton School of Business over 50 years ago