What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[Cellblock2429]

Trump says one thing today and does the opposite tomorrow. A year or so ago he was supporting a plan to cut immigration in half.
Trump Supports Plan to Cut Legal Immigration by Half

I've conversed with a lot people about illegal immigration and the one thing that stands out is that most people that feel strongly about stopping illegal immigration think legal immigration should be reduced or abolished. They just don't want all those Hispanics, Africans, and Asians in their country regardless of how they got here.

Or maybe we feel that they are not assimilating in our country very well and need more time.

That depends of what you mean by assimilation. It's going to take quite a while to change their skin color and eliminate all trace of their heritage, like about 100 years.

/——/ it has nothing to do with changing skin color you freakin moron. It means blending into our society

I said, "That depends of what you mean by assimilation. It's going to take quite a while to change their skin color and eliminate all trace of their heritage, like about 100 years." That was not to be taken literally. Maybe I should have said "like never" and you would understand.

/——-/ Yeah, 100 years and never are often interchanged as in How long was the 100 years war? It was never.

 

[Flopper]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. Immigration is limited to about 680,000 a year. Do the math. If we're going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

 

[Cellblock2429]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. If we going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

/——/ Time to cut back on abortions and rebuild the population.

 

[Flopper]

/——/ We restricted immigrants for decades so the ones here could assimilate. The Immigration Act of 1924 created a quota system that restricted entry to 2 percent of the total number of people of each nationality in America as of the 1890 national census–a system that favored immigrants from Western Europe–and prohibited immigrants from Asia.

Well the left feels this kind of thing has never happened before---only with Trump.

The changes taking place because of foreigners is obvious. It's time to stop migration until at least everybody can speak and read the language here.

I think immigration should be tied to their ability to support themselves rather than quotas. You come here, support yourself for seven years, you can become a citizen. They aren't going to be able to do that if they don't learn to speak English

I agree, but talking with people close to the border (I've never been there) the problem they have are illegals crowding 12 people into a two family home or apartment. That brings down property value. So they can work at McDonald's part time and still make claim of supporting themselves. The other problem is anchor babies. Come here and have a bunch of kids, and then you can share in their welfare plus be able to make claim they need you here because they are little Americans that cannot support themselves.

Those are real issues that need to be solved. We have a better chance to do that though if people can only come legally

Well some of them are coming legally and that's what they do. Again, no first hand experience, but just going by what people who live in the area tell me.

Some of them are coming legally. We have just over 37 million legal immigrants living in the United States. The best estimates of undocumented immigrants are 11 to 12 million. In other words we have about 3 times as many legal immigrants. That's not just "some".

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. Immigration is limited to about 680,000 a year. Do the math. If we're going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

What is this obsession with having to grow? Do you realize we had over a 100 million less people here in 1970 than we do today and we did just fine? And that was back in the day where automation wasn't even a concern.

 

[Flopper]

Trump says one thing today and does the opposite tomorrow. A year or so ago he was supporting a plan to cut immigration in half.
Trump Supports Plan to Cut Legal Immigration by Half

/——/
There has to be limits to any immigration. The illegals are taking spots from the legals.

There is. The body of law governing current immigration policy, provides for an annual worldwide limit of 675,000 permanent immigrants, with certain exceptions for close family members. I don't think Trump is messing with that number. It is .2% of the population, way too small.

And we have almost 2 million illegal aliens combining border crossers with VISA overstays, WAY too large.

Once we get that under control, we can increase legal immigration.

Every action you take is about getting more Democrat votes on the voter rolls. Not one action you're taking costs the Democrats a vote. Your motive is clear

What a shocking revaluation. Democrats don't have to say or do anything to attract Hispanic voters. Donald Trump does it all. He calls them rapist and murders. Says migrants come from shit hole countries. Blames our drug problems on Mexico. Wants to make Mexico pay the cost of defending our border with a wall. Wants to make it impossible for them to bring their families to the US. And he hovers over a taco salad proclaiming, "I love Hispanics."

/——/ One has nothing to do with the other. Maybe if you loved Americans you’d support a strong border.

Our southern border is stronger than it has ever been and illegal immigration has been falling for nearly 2 decades. In 2000 it was over 1.6 million, 1.3 million in 2005, 900,000 in 2010, and 310,000 in 2017.
3 Charts That Show What's Actually Happening Along The Southern Border

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Okay, you see, if the law applies equally to everyone, then it's not an abuse.

You can't refuse service to gay people if you are an atheist who hates gays, and you can't refuse service to gay people if you are a religous person who hates gays.

It's not a law, it's a protection. Learn the difference.

Homosexuality is against most religious creeds. It's in the Holy Bible. You can't tell somebody you won't bake a cake because you hate them, but you can say you won't participate in their ritual because it goes against your religious beliefs.

Religious beliefs aside, there is a moral or offensive part of this. If the KKK came to your town for a party, and went to a black baker asking for a cake showing a black man being hung, should the government allow that black baker to be sued to the point of having to close up his business because he refused to make that particular cake?

Sorry, I can't be responsible for your ignorance. YOu need to get out more. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people who are clearly NOT disabled bringing their dogs into a public place.

Service Animal Scams: A Growing Problem

I also discovered a host of dubious service and emotional support animal "registries." For example, the United States Dog Registry will certify any dog as a “service dog” or a "therapy dog" for $58, and an outfit called ESA of America will happily certify your pet rat, hamster, or iguana as an “emotional support animal.” (Sample ESA customer testimonial–“I have now taken 3 flights with my dog, and the peace of mind of being able to just pack up and go anywhere I want with him is the greatest thing ever.")

Then I began to ask around about bogus assistance animals and immediately began to hear stories. A high profile animal activist confessed to me that several of his friends had purchased phony service vests so they could take their pets into restaurants (he refuses to go out to eat with those friends anymore). And my daughter told me about a woman she knows who got a free flight for her dog to Southeast Asia by having a social worker pal write letter a saying the pet provided her with emotional support (while the ruse worked, the dog did have to wear a canine diaper on the trip).

Right, and people are going through all that just in case they get a Muslim cab driver that doesn't want their dog in the cab.

It all depends on the type of discrimination and the public accommodations laws of the state which define what type of discrimination in public accommodations is illegal. Federal law prevents discrimination based on race, color, place of origin, religion, and disabilities.

I didn't bring it up to have a discussion about law, I brought it up in context of assimilation. These people don't care what the law is. They refuse to allow animals in their cab and that's it.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

...Mexico has no reason whatsoever to stop migrants seeking asylum in the US...

True.

It's time to GIVE them a reason to stop the flow.

Compared to the US, Mexican boarders are pretty open. People from Central America flow into Mexico as easy as US tourist enter Mexico. There are no visas or passports required. Restricting travelers from Central America would be a difficult decision for Mexico.

‐ Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years’ imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years’ imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama’s illegal-alien aunt — a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim).

‐ Law-enforcement officials at all levels — by national mandate — must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal-alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration-enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens’ arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.

How Mexico Treats Illegal Aliens | National Review

 

[Flopper]

The real purpose of taking kids away from their parents is to persuade the parents to waive a trial and plead guilty. Once they plead guilty, their deportation can be expedited and they will be united with their children in few days or weeks. If they ask for their day in court, they won't see their children for months, or up to 1 year and they are told this.

What a load of crap.

If that is the "real reason" and if Barry hasn't done anything wrong by doing it (with your silent approval), than Trump is doing nothing wrong neither.

Kids don't belong to jail. Their parents are lawbreakers, not them.

The Obama administration placed nearly 90,000 children with a sponsor, after they were detained at the border without a legal guardian. The only time children split from their family under Obama was if the adult was suspected of not being a guardian, had an outstanding warrant, or federal agents suspected the adult of another serious crime like trafficking or smuggling.

The Trump administration policy was to separate all children from their parents with no exceptions and if there had not been the outcry from the public and pressure from congress he would still be doing it. No law compelled him to do it. He did as deterrent and to speed up deportations. His actions were so deplorable that even his wife and daughter spoke out against it.

Not real news: The truth about volcanic gems, and immigrant kids placed into care under Obama

 

[kaz]

Budget $4 Trillion a year

21 to build it once. Far less to maintain it.

And it saves the people hundreds of billions a year at all levels of government.

But if you really want to see that $21 billion is a pittance in our budget, pretend it's a welfare program. Then a $1T is a pittance to you

Welfare programs do a lot of good.

Walls are fucking worthless. People just climb over them.

You see, this is where you are kind of confused. The Rich People who run real businesses don't want illegal aliens to stop coming. They WANT that cheap labor as an option.

So you're doing this for the rich people? What a stupid ass you are to carry their water for them

 

[kaz]

What a disappointing article that CATO one by David Bier was. I was looking forward to reading that when I saw it hoping it was a rational analysis. All he did was parrot the talking points of the Democrat party. He also listed challenges with a wall, such as terrain as if the left's premise that 1 illegal alien = 1 million illegal aliens, one gets through the wall failed, is true

Again, if mountain ranges and oceans can be overcome, anything built by man can be overcome.

Only a fraction of the people coming now will get through. You know that very well, which is why you're so desperate to stop it

 

[kaz]

What a disappointing article that CATO one by David Bier was. I was looking forward to reading that when I saw it hoping it was a rational analysis. All he did was parrot the talking points of the Democrat party. He also listed challenges with a wall, such as terrain as if the left's premise that 1 illegal alien = 1 million illegal aliens, one gets through the wall failed, is true

Again, if mountain ranges and oceans can be overcome, anything built by man can be overcome.

/——-/ I suppose you don’t bother locking your doors and windows at night. I mean what’s the point?

Yes, he's melting down because he knows it will work. He's trying to make the border wall sound like a chain link fence.

So Joe, you don't want fences around nuclear power plants either, right? I mean they don't work

 

[kaz]

Budget $4 Trillion a year

21 to build it once. Far less to maintain it.

And it saves the people hundreds of billions a year at all levels of government.

But if you really want to see that $21 billion is a pittance in our budget, pretend it's a welfare program. Then a $1T is a pittance to you

Welfare programs do a lot of good.

Walls are fucking worthless. People just climb over them.

You see, this is where you are kind of confused. The Rich People who run real businesses don't want illegal aliens to stop coming. They WANT that cheap labor as an option.

/——/ But their cheap illegal labor undercuts the minimum wage you cherish. Dem Dianne Finestein said so in 1994. Google it.

Yes, illegal aliens take the jobs from poor Americans and both vote for Democrats. It's win-win for Joe. He doesn't want the gravy train to stop. He doesn't just lose the illegal aliens from voting. As the poor get jobs, more and more will siphon off the Democrat pipeline. That's why Joe's sweating so profusely

 

[Cellblock2429]

Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump:

"If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law," Attorney General Jeff Sessions said Monday at a law enforcement conference in Scottsdale, Arizona. "If you don't like that, then don't smuggle children over our border."

Administration officials explained that the goal of the program is 100 percent prosecution of all who enter the U.S. illegally. When adults are prosecuted and jailed, their children will be separated from them, just as would happen for a U.S. citizen convicted and jailed.​

Anguish at Southwest border as more immigrant children are separated from parents

The Trump administration's willingness to take children from their parents has raised concerns about how far authorities should go to stem unauthorized border crossings and what human cost is acceptable in the name of border security and immigration control.

"There is something terrible happening here that Americans would not support if they understood it," said F. Scott McCown, director of the Children’s Rights Clinic at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law.​

I don't care how much you hate illegal immigrants this is EVIL. You are punishing the children. It's abhorrant and wrong and inexcusable. I hope they rot in hell for this. 700 children so far have been seperated from the only family they know and lost to our often incompetent and mismanaged child care system. I fail to see how any parent could support actions like these.

When parents are held for prosecution, their children are turned over to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. The children are then designated as "unaccompanied minors," and the government tries to connect them to family members who are already in the U.S. Until then, children wait in shelters or are sent to federally contracted foster homes, often without parents being told exactly where they are, immigration advocates said.

It may soon become even more difficult to place children with relatives. The Department of Homeland Security is proposing immigration checks be done on all people in a household who may take in these "unaccompanied" children, which means relatives who are undocumented may be less likely to come forward.

In the meantime, space in shelters and foster homes is limited; The Washington Post reported the administration plans to open facilities at military bases to house some of the separated children.​

/——-/ Young Senator gets it right on illegal immigration,

 

[kaz]

Well the left feels this kind of thing has never happened before---only with Trump.

The changes taking place because of foreigners is obvious. It's time to stop migration until at least everybody can speak and read the language here.

I think immigration should be tied to their ability to support themselves rather than quotas. You come here, support yourself for seven years, you can become a citizen. They aren't going to be able to do that if they don't learn to speak English

I agree, but talking with people close to the border (I've never been there) the problem they have are illegals crowding 12 people into a two family home or apartment. That brings down property value. So they can work at McDonald's part time and still make claim of supporting themselves. The other problem is anchor babies. Come here and have a bunch of kids, and then you can share in their welfare plus be able to make claim they need you here because they are little Americans that cannot support themselves.

Those are real issues that need to be solved. We have a better chance to do that though if people can only come legally

Well some of them are coming legally and that's what they do. Again, no first hand experience, but just going by what people who live in the area tell me.

Some of them are coming legally. We have just over 37 million legal immigrants living in the United States. The best estimates of undocumented immigrants are 11 to 12 million. In other words we have about 3 times as many legal immigrants. That's not just "some".

Actually, no experts actually believe 11 to 12 million. That estimate is over a decade old and would suggest that no one has come here, which is of course crap. Most put the real number at 25 to 30 million

 

[kaz]

/——/
There has to be limits to any immigration. The illegals are taking spots from the legals.

There is. The body of law governing current immigration policy, provides for an annual worldwide limit of 675,000 permanent immigrants, with certain exceptions for close family members. I don't think Trump is messing with that number. It is .2% of the population, way too small.

And we have almost 2 million illegal aliens combining border crossers with VISA overstays, WAY too large.

Once we get that under control, we can increase legal immigration.

Every action you take is about getting more Democrat votes on the voter rolls. Not one action you're taking costs the Democrats a vote. Your motive is clear

What a shocking revaluation. Democrats don't have to say or do anything to attract Hispanic voters. Donald Trump does it all. He calls them rapist and murders. Says migrants come from shit hole countries. Blames our drug problems on Mexico. Wants to make Mexico pay the cost of defending our border with a wall. Wants to make it impossible for them to bring their families to the US. And he hovers over a taco salad proclaiming, "I love Hispanics."

/——/ One has nothing to do with the other. Maybe if you loved Americans you’d support a strong border.

Our southern border is stronger than it has ever been and illegal immigration has been falling for nearly 2 decades. In 2000 it was over 1.6 million, 1.3 million in 2005, 900,000 in 2010, and 310,000 in 2017.
3 Charts That Show What's Actually Happening Along The Southern Border

And it's back up, it ebbs and flows. Regardless, you talk about 310 THOUSAND people like it's nothing. That's still a massive number of people entering our country illegally

 

[Flopper]

The real purpose of taking kids away from their parents is to persuade the parents to waive a trial and plead guilty. Once they plead guilty, their deportation can be expedited and they will be united with their children in few days or weeks. If they ask for their day in court, they won't see their children for months, or up to 1 year and they are told this.

What a load of crap.

If that is the "real reason" and if Barry hasn't done anything wrong by doing it (with your silent approval), than Trump is doing nothing wrong neither.

Kids don't belong to jail. Their parents are lawbreakers, not them.

What Obama did or did not do is irrelevant now. However, Obama separated families when it was necessary, and certainly not as a deterrent or as punishment. Trump did so as deterrent. He would still be doing so now were it not for the backlash in congress and the outcry from the public.

In our immigration system, if you detain parents and take away the kids, parents will waive their right to trial because it's the fastest way to get their kids back. If they ask for a trial they can be detained for up to a year. If they ask for asylum, they could be away from the kids for 4-6 months. What parent is going to take that kind of risk. In the countries these people come from, police take away kids and they are never seen again.

We created family detention center so families could be kept together. There's no reason why we should not use them.

If Barry and Trump are doing the same thing, and what Barry did is irrelevant, how come what Trump is doing is relevant? Second, this is not about what Barry did and Trump doing, my point is that you leftists suddenly start caring about children, only after you were doing the same thing, on even larger care. That makes you hypocrites, all over again.

And, family detention centers that were built by Bush were unacceptable to you lefties, so you demanded changes in policies. Bush caved in, Barry continued the same thing, Trump too. Now you want family detention centers again, that you were against during Bush era.

Trump and Obama were not doing the same thing.

Obama was putting unescorted children with a sponsor. The only spiting of families occurred when there were outstanding warrants against parents or there was evidence of human trafficking.

Trump separated kids from all families detained, zero tolerance. Children as young as 5 years old were routinely being taken from mothers. In one case a 9 month old was taken. His actions created a huge backlash. It was so deplorable that his wife and daughter spoke out against it.

A federal count order released 1700 families in family detention centers because the facilities were not complete; that is they did not meet all requirement for housing children. The only change in policy was to not hold the families in detention until the centers were upgraded. When Obama left office the family detention centers were being used.

 

[francoHFW]

The rich earned their wealth? Are you that stupid? The Walton’s earned nothing. Sam Walton earned their wealth. The Waltons sit on their asses and collect dividends off the work if others.

The rich have a tax code that keeps wealth flowing to the top. They have labour laws which allow them to deny health care or benefits to workers, and to pay them so little their workers need welfare to supplement their incomes.

They appoint a burger flipper as “manager” so they can work him/her 60 hours a week without paying overtime.

Other countries put their people first. America puts their corporations first, and the wealthy second. Working men and women, who make up the vast majority of your population are denigrated, abused and paid the least amount possible.

If the Walton's don't do anything, why don't the workers leave and open up their own store?

In a history of stupid posts, this is by far the dumbest thing ever.

You bitch about your job endlessly. Why don’t you quit and open your own trucking company, or become an independent hauler?

Yeah, I thought about that many times. But I already have a side business that keeps me occupied. I don't need two businesses.

And why is my remark stupid? Is it because you can't answer my question?

Yes, the workers work. That's what they get paid to do. But the workers didn't come up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to open up that store. The workers couldn't pay the utilities or taxes. The workers couldn't compete with similar stores if they paid themselves great money. The workers don't have an office staff to handle government regulations, payroll, billers and paperwork pushers. They don't have the resources to even open up such an office. They don't have to spend the money for snow removal or lot maintenance.

What the Walton's have done is provide a place for people to work. Without them, some of those people wouldn't have any kind of job at all. They spent money to create the idea, the structure, the organization. They risked their own money. That's what they do.

Just because they don't sweep floors doesn't mean they are not earning their money. In the event you didn't know, investment is where you do spend your own money hoping for a return plus profit.

Good for them now tax them please.... Your hero worship is touching.Why are we the only modern country without Healthcare daycare good vacations cheap college and training good infrastructure living wage, super duper? 35 years of GOP giveaway to the rich.

/——-/ We have all of those things you goofball.

You are out of your tiny little mind...

 

[francoHFW]

The rich earned their wealth? Are you that stupid? The Walton’s earned nothing. Sam Walton earned their wealth. The Waltons sit on their asses and collect dividends off the work if others.

The rich have a tax code that keeps wealth flowing to the top. They have labour laws which allow them to deny health care or benefits to workers, and to pay them so little their workers need welfare to supplement their incomes.

They appoint a burger flipper as “manager” so they can work him/her 60 hours a week without paying overtime.

Other countries put their people first. America puts their corporations first, and the wealthy second. Working men and women, who make up the vast majority of your population are denigrated, abused and paid the least amount possible.

If the Walton's don't do anything, why don't the workers leave and open up their own store?

In a history of stupid posts, this is by far the dumbest thing ever.

You bitch about your job endlessly. Why don’t you quit and open your own trucking company, or become an independent hauler?

Yeah, I thought about that many times. But I already have a side business that keeps me occupied. I don't need two businesses.

And why is my remark stupid? Is it because you can't answer my question?

Yes, the workers work. That's what they get paid to do. But the workers didn't come up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to open up that store. The workers couldn't pay the utilities or taxes. The workers couldn't compete with similar stores if they paid themselves great money. The workers don't have an office staff to handle government regulations, payroll, billers and paperwork pushers. They don't have the resources to even open up such an office. They don't have to spend the money for snow removal or lot maintenance.

What the Walton's have done is provide a place for people to work. Without them, some of those people wouldn't have any kind of job at all. They spent money to create the idea, the structure, the organization. They risked their own money. That's what they do.

Just because they don't sweep floors doesn't mean they are not earning their money. In the event you didn't know, investment is where you do spend your own money hoping for a return plus profit.

Good for them now tax them please.... Your hero worship is touching.Why are we the only modern country without Healthcare daycare good vacations cheap college and training good infrastructure living wage, super duper? 35 years of GOP giveaway to the rich.

/——/ The top 20% pay the bulk of taxes.
Time to tax the 47% freeloaders

If you count all taxes and fees, everyone pays between 20 and 30%, super duper, and the rich laugh all the way to the bank...

 

[francoHFW]

The rich earned their wealth? Are you that stupid? The Walton’s earned nothing. Sam Walton earned their wealth. The Waltons sit on their asses and collect dividends off the work if others.

The rich have a tax code that keeps wealth flowing to the top. They have labour laws which allow them to deny health care or benefits to workers, and to pay them so little their workers need welfare to supplement their incomes.

They appoint a burger flipper as “manager” so they can work him/her 60 hours a week without paying overtime.

Other countries put their people first. America puts their corporations first, and the wealthy second. Working men and women, who make up the vast majority of your population are denigrated, abused and paid the least amount possible.

If the Walton's don't do anything, why don't the workers leave and open up their own store?

In a history of stupid posts, this is by far the dumbest thing ever.

You bitch about your job endlessly. Why don’t you quit and open your own trucking company, or become an independent hauler?

Yeah, I thought about that many times. But I already have a side business that keeps me occupied. I don't need two businesses.

And why is my remark stupid? Is it because you can't answer my question?

Yes, the workers work. That's what they get paid to do. But the workers didn't come up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to open up that store. The workers couldn't pay the utilities or taxes. The workers couldn't compete with similar stores if they paid themselves great money. The workers don't have an office staff to handle government regulations, payroll, billers and paperwork pushers. They don't have the resources to even open up such an office. They don't have to spend the money for snow removal or lot maintenance.

What the Walton's have done is provide a place for people to work. Without them, some of those people wouldn't have any kind of job at all. They spent money to create the idea, the structure, the organization. They risked their own money. That's what they do.

Just because they don't sweep floors doesn't mean they are not earning their money. In the event you didn't know, investment is where you do spend your own money hoping for a return plus profit.

Good for them now tax them please.... Your hero worship is touching.Why are we the only modern country without Healthcare daycare good vacations cheap college and training good infrastructure living wage, super duper? 35 years of GOP giveaway to the rich.

You mean we are the only country where people take care of themselves? My Lord, what an awful place.

Also why we have the the worst inequality, poverty, upward Mobility and infrastructure and everything else in the modern world. Thanks GOP and silly dupes like you. We're number 23!!