What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[kaz]

The real purpose of taking kids away from their parents is to persuade the parents to waive a trial and plead guilty. Once they plead guilty, their deportation can be expedited and they will be united with their children in few days or weeks. If they ask for their day in court, they won't see their children for months, or up to 1 year and they are told this.

What a load of crap.

If that is the "real reason" and if Barry hasn't done anything wrong by doing it (with your silent approval), than Trump is doing nothing wrong neither.

Kids don't belong to jail. Their parents are lawbreakers, not them.

What Obama did or did not do is irrelevant now. However, Obama separated families when it was necessary, and certainly not as a deterrent or as punishment. Trump did so as deterrent. He would still be doing so now were it not for the backlash in congress and the outcry from the public.

In our immigration system, if you detain parents and take away the kids, parents will waive their right to trial because it's the fastest way to get their kids back. If they ask for a trial they can be detained for up to a year. If they ask for asylum, they could be away from the kids for 4-6 months. What parent is going to take that kind of risk. In the countries these people come from, police take away kids and they are never seen again.

We created family detention center so families could be kept together. There's no reason why we should not use them.

If Barry and Trump are doing the same thing, and what Barry did is irrelevant, how come what Trump is doing is relevant? Second, this is not about what Barry did and Trump doing, my point is that you leftists suddenly start caring about children, only after you were doing the same thing, on even larger care. That makes you hypocrites, all over again.

And, family detention centers that were built by Bush were unacceptable to you lefties, so you demanded changes in policies. Bush caved in, Barry continued the same thing, Trump too. Now you want family detention centers again, that you were against during Bush era.

Trump and Obama were not doing the same thing.

Obama was putting unescorted children with a sponsor. The only spiting of families occurred when there were outstanding warrants against parents or there was evidence of human trafficking.

Trump separated kids from all families detained, zero tolerance. Children as young as 5 years old were routinely being taken from mothers. In one case a 9 month old was taken. His actions created a huge backlash. It was so deplorable that his wife and daughter spoke out against it.

A federal count order released 1700 families in family detention centers because the facilities were not complete; that is they did not meet all requirement for housing children. The only change in policy was to not hold the families in detention until the centers were upgraded. When Obama left office the family detention centers were being used.

Keep your eye on the sparrow

 

[Cellblock2429]

If the Walton's don't do anything, why don't the workers leave and open up their own store?

In a history of stupid posts, this is by far the dumbest thing ever.

You bitch about your job endlessly. Why don’t you quit and open your own trucking company, or become an independent hauler?

Yeah, I thought about that many times. But I already have a side business that keeps me occupied. I don't need two businesses.

And why is my remark stupid? Is it because you can't answer my question?

Yes, the workers work. That's what they get paid to do. But the workers didn't come up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to open up that store. The workers couldn't pay the utilities or taxes. The workers couldn't compete with similar stores if they paid themselves great money. The workers don't have an office staff to handle government regulations, payroll, billers and paperwork pushers. They don't have the resources to even open up such an office. They don't have to spend the money for snow removal or lot maintenance.

What the Walton's have done is provide a place for people to work. Without them, some of those people wouldn't have any kind of job at all. They spent money to create the idea, the structure, the organization. They risked their own money. That's what they do.

Just because they don't sweep floors doesn't mean they are not earning their money. In the event you didn't know, investment is where you do spend your own money hoping for a return plus profit.

Good for them now tax them please.... Your hero worship is touching.Why are we the only modern country without Healthcare daycare good vacations cheap college and training good infrastructure living wage, super duper? 35 years of GOP giveaway to the rich.

/——/ The top 20% pay the bulk of taxes.
Time to tax the 47% freeloaders

If you count all taxes and fees, everyone pays between 20 and 30%, super duper, and the rich laugh all the way to the bank...

/——-/ I was just counting income tax but you make a valid point, add sales and use tax, fees and tolls then the rich are hit even harder and pay far more than their fair share.

 

[Flopper]

I think immigration should be tied to their ability to support themselves rather than quotas. You come here, support yourself for seven years, you can become a citizen. They aren't going to be able to do that if they don't learn to speak English

I agree, but talking with people close to the border (I've never been there) the problem they have are illegals crowding 12 people into a two family home or apartment. That brings down property value. So they can work at McDonald's part time and still make claim of supporting themselves. The other problem is anchor babies. Come here and have a bunch of kids, and then you can share in their welfare plus be able to make claim they need you here because they are little Americans that cannot support themselves.

Those are real issues that need to be solved. We have a better chance to do that though if people can only come legally

Well some of them are coming legally and that's what they do. Again, no first hand experience, but just going by what people who live in the area tell me.

Some of them are coming legally. We have just over 37 million legal immigrants living in the United States. The best estimates of undocumented immigrants are 11 to 12 million. In other words we have about 3 times as many legal immigrants. That's not just "some".

Actually, no experts actually believe 11 to 12 million. That estimate is over a decade old and would suggest that no one has come here, which is of course crap. Most put the real number at 25 to 30 million

Compete nonsense. Most all reputable research organization puts the numbers between 11 and 12 million.

Pants on fire Trump. "It could be 3 million. It could be 30 million," Trump said.

Homeland Security estimated 12 million in 2012

11.4 million Migration Policy Institute (MPI) analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data from the 2014
11.1 million Statistics Portal 2014
11.3 million Pew Research Center 2015
10.8 million Center for Immigration Studies 2016

Profile of the Unauthorized Population - US
5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S.
Unauthorized immigrant population U.S. 1990-2014 | Statistic
Looking at the New Estimates of the Illegal Population

 

[Kondor3]

Death rates of whites in America now exceed birth rates, a trend that started decades ago is accelerating...

Quite probably true. And that's OK. Too many people in this country already as it is. We could trim 50,000,000 off of our 300,000,000 and not bat an eye.

...

Also the number of mixed race marriages and births are increasing...

Quite probably true. Neither a good thing nor a bad thing in its own right. Demonstrates more acceptance and tolerance within society on the macro level. That's positive.

...Maybe in a hundred years we'll see the end of discrimination based on skin color. It will then be the blue eyes vs the brown eyes.

A fine little LibProg orgasmic fantasy.

 

[danielpalos]

I agree, but talking with people close to the border (I've never been there) the problem they have are illegals crowding 12 people into a two family home or apartment. That brings down property value. So they can work at McDonald's part time and still make claim of supporting themselves. The other problem is anchor babies. Come here and have a bunch of kids, and then you can share in their welfare plus be able to make claim they need you here because they are little Americans that cannot support themselves.

Those are real issues that need to be solved. We have a better chance to do that though if people can only come legally

Well some of them are coming legally and that's what they do. Again, no first hand experience, but just going by what people who live in the area tell me.

Some of them are coming legally. We have just over 37 million legal immigrants living in the United States. The best estimates of undocumented immigrants are 11 to 12 million. In other words we have about 3 times as many legal immigrants. That's not just "some".

Actually, no experts actually believe 11 to 12 million. That estimate is over a decade old and would suggest that no one has come here, which is of course crap. Most put the real number at 25 to 30 million

Compete nonsense. Most all reputable research organization puts the numbers between 11 and 12 million.

Pants on fire Trump. "It could be 3 million. It could be 30 million," Trump said.

Homeland Security estimated 12 million in 2012

11.4 million Migration Policy Institute (MPI) analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data from the 2014
11.1 million Statistics Portal 2014
11.3 million Pew Research Center 2015
10.8 million Center for Immigration Studies 2016

Profile of the Unauthorized Population - US
5 facts about illegal immigration in the U.S.
Unauthorized immigrant population U.S. 1990-2014 | Statistic
Looking at the New Estimates of the Illegal Population

We should be making money (not losing money) from around twelve million people by providing a federal id. for Government purposes. A fee or a fine, can make that happen.

Applied Capitalism can result in (a market friendly visa) times around twelve million persons to collect revenue from.

No, visa "taxation", no Republic "representation!"

 

[Dragonlady]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. If we going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

/——/ Time to cut back on abortions and rebuild the population.

80% of women having abortions can’t afford to raise the children. If you turn women into breeding cattle, you’ll be added one million babies per year who are poor, and who require substantial income supports to raise them. Since health care, education and nutrition for the poor is well below standard, these kids are likely to remain a drain on the public purse throughout their lives.

 

[Cellblock2429]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. If we going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

/——/ Time to cut back on abortions and rebuild the population.

80% of women having abortions can’t afford to raise the children. If you turn women into breeding cattle, you’ll be added one million babies per year who are poor, and who require substantial income supports to raise them. Since health care, education and nutrition for the poor is well below standard, these kids are likely to remain a drain on the public purse throughout their lives.

/——/ turn women into breeding cattle? What a ridiculous, idiotic Strawman argument. Do you think women have no say in having sex? Do you still believe they are slaves to a man’s whim? Come up with a reasonable argument and you just might win someone over.

 

[danielpalos]

We desperately need more legal immigrants...

Incorrect. We are a nation of 330,000,000 - one third of a billion - we already have the intellect and the warm bodies to produce whatever we need.

Our birth rate is much too low. It just reached a 30 year low and if the trend continues as is likely, our birth rate will be less than the death rate within 10 to 15 years. We also have 10,000 people a day going into retirement and we are generating 150,000 to 250,000 jobs a month. If we going to continue to grow, we are going to need a lot more people in the 21 century.

/——/ Time to cut back on abortions and rebuild the population.

80% of women having abortions can’t afford to raise the children. If you turn women into breeding cattle, you’ll be added one million babies per year who are poor, and who require substantial income supports to raise them. Since health care, education and nutrition for the poor is well below standard, these kids are likely to remain a drain on the public purse throughout their lives.

/——/ turn women into breeding cattle? What a ridiculous, idiotic Strawman argument. Do you think women have no say in having sex? Do you still believe they are slaves to a man’s whim? Come up with a reasonable argument and you just might win someone over.

Public policy pays them when they reproduce, not be more productive.

 

[JoeB131]

Are you starting to see a pattern here yet Joe? Isn't it obvious what they are telling you?

Um, not really.

I never disputed Bush won 2004 somewhat honestly, if you think that scaring the shit out of people with fake wars is honest.

But in 2000 and 2016, Republicans lost the popular vote. Period. They also lost in 2008 and 2012 and 1996 and 1992.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Are you starting to see a pattern here yet Joe? Isn't it obvious what they are telling you?

Um, not really.

I never disputed Bush won 2004 somewhat honestly, if you think that scaring the shit out of people with fake wars is honest.

But in 2000 and 2016, Republicans lost the popular vote. Period. They also lost in 2008 and 2012 and 1996 and 1992.

/——/ Good thong the popular vote doesn’t count.

 

[JoeB131]

There are more jobs than workers today. There is no reason to be on FS unless you are physically or mentally incapable of holding a job.

Except a lot of those jobs don't pay enough. Actually, we had the same issue under Obama, but back then, you didn't think less than 5% unemployment was a bad thing.

The thing is, 40% of people on SNAP have jobs. Most of the rest are retired, disabled or children.

I know you won't read the link, so I'll tell you what Maine did. They instituted requirements to receive food stamps. These are people with no dependents:

Have a job working at least 20 hours a week.
Volunteer at least 20 hours a month.
Be enrolled in a vocation program.

Do you know what the results were? Most of those people dropped out of the program. Guess they weren't that hungry after all. Many conservative run states did the same thing getting the same results, and guess what? Nobody got killed.

Actually, Maine didn't see any bit of a reduction in SNAP usage than anyone else did.

Our View: On food stamps, don’t follow Maine’s example

In this experiment, Gov. LePage took from tens of thousands of poor residents benefits from the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program, more commonly known as SNAP or food stamps, under the idea that it would force those residents to find work and thus remove themselves from government dependency.

Not many got jobs they wouldn’t have eventually found otherwise, and most of those who did find work likely still qualified for assistance. Meanwhile, hunger in Maine got worse, even as it improved almost everywhere else.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

If the Walton's don't do anything, why don't the workers leave and open up their own store?

In a history of stupid posts, this is by far the dumbest thing ever.

You bitch about your job endlessly. Why don’t you quit and open your own trucking company, or become an independent hauler?

Yeah, I thought about that many times. But I already have a side business that keeps me occupied. I don't need two businesses.

And why is my remark stupid? Is it because you can't answer my question?

Yes, the workers work. That's what they get paid to do. But the workers didn't come up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to open up that store. The workers couldn't pay the utilities or taxes. The workers couldn't compete with similar stores if they paid themselves great money. The workers don't have an office staff to handle government regulations, payroll, billers and paperwork pushers. They don't have the resources to even open up such an office. They don't have to spend the money for snow removal or lot maintenance.

What the Walton's have done is provide a place for people to work. Without them, some of those people wouldn't have any kind of job at all. They spent money to create the idea, the structure, the organization. They risked their own money. That's what they do.

Just because they don't sweep floors doesn't mean they are not earning their money. In the event you didn't know, investment is where you do spend your own money hoping for a return plus profit.

Good for them now tax them please.... Your hero worship is touching.Why are we the only modern country without Healthcare daycare good vacations cheap college and training good infrastructure living wage, super duper? 35 years of GOP giveaway to the rich.

You mean we are the only country where people take care of themselves? My Lord, what an awful place.

Also why we have the the worst inequality, poverty, upward Mobility and infrastructure and everything else in the modern world. Thanks GOP and silly dupes like you. We're number 23!!

The US produces close to a half-million new millionaires every year. How much more upward mobility do you want than that? The main reason we have poverty if because the Democrats have promoted irresponsibility. Single parent homes (which Democrats also promoted) is a leading reason for poverty.

"Folks, if you pay people not to work, don't be too surprised when they don't."
Rush Limbaugh

 

[danielpalos]

In a history of stupid posts, this is by far the dumbest thing ever.

You bitch about your job endlessly. Why don’t you quit and open your own trucking company, or become an independent hauler?

Yeah, I thought about that many times. But I already have a side business that keeps me occupied. I don't need two businesses.

And why is my remark stupid? Is it because you can't answer my question?

Yes, the workers work. That's what they get paid to do. But the workers didn't come up with the hundreds of thousands of dollars to open up that store. The workers couldn't pay the utilities or taxes. The workers couldn't compete with similar stores if they paid themselves great money. The workers don't have an office staff to handle government regulations, payroll, billers and paperwork pushers. They don't have the resources to even open up such an office. They don't have to spend the money for snow removal or lot maintenance.

What the Walton's have done is provide a place for people to work. Without them, some of those people wouldn't have any kind of job at all. They spent money to create the idea, the structure, the organization. They risked their own money. That's what they do.

Just because they don't sweep floors doesn't mean they are not earning their money. In the event you didn't know, investment is where you do spend your own money hoping for a return plus profit.

Good for them now tax them please.... Your hero worship is touching.Why are we the only modern country without Healthcare daycare good vacations cheap college and training good infrastructure living wage, super duper? 35 years of GOP giveaway to the rich.

You mean we are the only country where people take care of themselves? My Lord, what an awful place.

Also why we have the the worst inequality, poverty, upward Mobility and infrastructure and everything else in the modern world. Thanks GOP and silly dupes like you. We're number 23!!

The US produces close to a half-million new millionaires every year. How much more upward mobility do you want than that? The main reason we have poverty if because the Democrats have promoted irresponsibility. Single parent homes (which Democrats also promoted) is a leading reason for poverty.

"Folks, if you pay people not to work, don't be too surprised when they don't."
Rush Limbaugh

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment. Don't be fooled if we have to play games with a "rigged system".

 

[Flopper]

What a shocking revaluation. Democrats don't have to say or do anything to attract Hispanic voters. Donald Trump does it all. He calls them rapist and murders. Says migrants come from shit hole countries. Blames our drug problems on Mexico. Wants to make Mexico pay the cost of defending our border with a wall. Wants to make it impossible for them to bring their families to the US. And he hovers over a taco salad proclaiming, "I love Hispanics."

/——/ One has nothing to do with the other. Maybe if you loved Americans you’d support a strong border.

I believe it's our responsibility to protect our borders. Asking Mexico a country whose GDP is 5% of ours to pay for defense our border is downright embarrassing. If the mightiest nation on earth can't defend it's borders against peasants, mostly women and children, maybe it doesn't deserve those borders.

So Mexico (who helped usher in this current group of people) have no responsibility for what's going on? They allow this to happen. They encourage it to happen, but it's our fault.

What do you think Canada would say if we sent Mexicans to their border? You know, allow them to ride a train all the way up north, then dump those people on them?

Of course it would be our fault. We helped these people get to that border. We didn't stop them, we didn't try.

The Mexican government turned back 400 people at the border because they were not allowed to enter Mexico.

The Mexican government allowed the remainder to enter Mexico legally. The government had no legal grounds to stop them from traveling to the US border to petition for asylum. The government did not transport, lodge or feed them. Private organizations helped them and in some towns, food and lodging was provided by the people.

It appears the only people that encouraged any criminal act were border guards that refused to let petitioners put foot on US soil to petition for asylum leaving them no choice but to unlawfully enter the country.

I hope you're not saying Mexico allowing asylum seekers to petition the US is why they should pay for a 20 billion wall to protect the Unities States. That's pretty far fetched.

Regardless of any action of Mexico, it is the responsibility of the US to protect it's border and certainly not Mexico's responsibility. Asking the Mexican goverment to protect the US border is completely insane.

It appears Trump is trying to work some deal with Mexico so they will stop asylum seekers who can enter Mexico legally at Guatemalan border. Hopefully, Mexico will give him the big FU.

/——/ You’re just making stuff up. Mexico has every legal right to stop anyone from entering their country for any reason. Your entire post is pure conjecture and wishful thinking.

Mexico like the US has immigration laws that bar certain groups. The difference is Mexico has a very lax immigration policy compared to the US. Their main thrust is stopping drug and human trafficking.

The last time I was in the Yucatan, I flew into Cancun. There was a long line at Mexican immigration. A number of people were bypassing immigration going out an exit. A young boy in a uniform was standing by the exit. I ask him if I can go out the exit and he said yes and opened the door and I caught a cab. It was the next day that I realized, I was in the country illegally.

The border with Guatemala is 700 miles with 10 border crossing but there are 350 unofficial crossing mostly unmonitored. Thousands of people cross between the two countries daily much as people crossed our southern border a hundred years ago.

Could Mexican immigration stop asylum seeks, probably with some difficulty but why should they? These people aren't violating their laws. Before Trump the US and Mexico had very good relations and I suspect they would have been willing to cooperate. Today, I doubt it.

 

[JoeB131]

And here you are, trying to tell me about jobs I already know pay shit. You don't even know the company AIM. Their tractors are ten years old and pure garbage. You might make money when the thing is running or if the DOT cops don't have you pulled over for an inspection. And guess what? That job will be posted for the next several weeks or until a foreigner takes the job.

I'm not 25 years old. I can't be hopping up and down off of a flatbed even if it did pay anything. And take note that they offer insurance, not provide it. In other words, besides the crap money, they want an employee contribution as well.

Oh, noes, not an employee contribution....

Okay, looking at this company AIM. On indeed, it gets a rating of 3 stars on Indeed from employees. 3.1 on Glassdoor. That's actually not bad, considering most of those reviews are left by ex-employees.

 

[Dragonlady]

Death rates of whites in America now exceed birth rates, a trend that started decades ago is accelerating...

Quite probably true. And that's OK. Too many people in this country already as it is. We could trim 50,000,000 off of our 300,000,000 and not bat an eye.

...

Also the number of mixed race marriages and births are increasing...

Quite probably true. Neither a good thing nor a bad thing in its own right. Demonstrates more acceptance and tolerance within society on the macro level. That's positive.

...Maybe in a hundred years we'll see the end of discrimination based on skin color. It will then be the blue eyes vs the brown eyes.

A fine little LibProg orgasmic fantasy.

Hardly. In Europe it was French vs English for centuries. Rulers have used tribalism and “us vs. them” since the dawn of time. It riles up the population and allows demagogues and despots to commit atrocities.

The language, rhetoric and fear mongering Trump is using against immigrants is the same language that Hitler used against the Jews.

What’s worse is that those Jews who tried to flee Nazi Germany were turned away. The US wouldn’t let them in, nor would Canada. Some fled to other European countries but were shipped to camps after Hitler conquered Europe.

What Trump is doing to those Central American immigrants seeking asylum is no different than what Hitler did. He divided Germany in racial groups. Aryans were superior race. Roma, Catholics, and the disabled were undesirable. First he vilified them. Called them subhuman, animals. Said they were destroying Germany. Then he built camps. And then came the Final Solution.

Trump has been vilifying immigrants, Muslims, blacks and Latinos since he announced his candidacy. Now he’s jailing them, separating families.

Now he’s building concentration camps.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The real purpose of taking kids away from their parents is to persuade the parents to waive a trial and plead guilty. Once they plead guilty, their deportation can be expedited and they will be united with their children in few days or weeks. If they ask for their day in court, they won't see their children for months, or up to 1 year and they are told this.

What a load of crap.

If that is the "real reason" and if Barry hasn't done anything wrong by doing it (with your silent approval), than Trump is doing nothing wrong neither.

Kids don't belong to jail. Their parents are lawbreakers, not them.

The Obama administration placed nearly 90,000 children with a sponsor, after they were detained at the border without a legal guardian. The only time children split from their family under Obama was if the adult was suspected of not being a guardian, had an outstanding warrant, or federal agents suspected the adult of another serious crime like trafficking or smuggling.

The Trump administration policy was to separate all children from their parents with no exceptions and if there had not been the outcry from the public and pressure from congress he would still be doing it. No law compelled him to do it. He did as deterrent and to speed up deportations. His actions were so deplorable that even his wife and daughter spoke out against it.

Not real news: The truth about volcanic gems, and immigrant kids placed into care under Obama

Wrong:

The number of immigrant children held in custody has surged under Trump's crackdown–but Obama held many more

Immigrant children: Here's what's happening with kids at the border, policywise

 

[JoeB131]

So you're doing this for the rich people? What a stupid ass you are to carry their water for them

not at all..

My solution to illegal aliens would be go after the places that hire them, not try to top them at the border, which is useless since they will always find another way in.

You see, what we do with the Mexicans we catch? We send them back to Mexico and they try again a few weeks later. You have to get it right every time. they just have to get it right, once.

It's the detainees and refugees from Central America that are causing the current problem with the ugly images.

 

[JoeB131]

Only a fraction of the people coming now will get through. You know that very well, which is why you're so desperate to stop it

Actually, they'll just get more clever about getting across. Most undocumented workers don't come in across the southern border to start with.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And here you are, trying to tell me about jobs I already know pay shit. You don't even know the company AIM. Their tractors are ten years old and pure garbage. You might make money when the thing is running or if the DOT cops don't have you pulled over for an inspection. And guess what? That job will be posted for the next several weeks or until a foreigner takes the job.

I'm not 25 years old. I can't be hopping up and down off of a flatbed even if it did pay anything. And take note that they offer insurance, not provide it. In other words, besides the crap money, they want an employee contribution as well.

Oh, noes, not an employee contribution....

Okay, looking at this company AIM. On indeed, it gets a rating of 3 stars on Indeed from employees. 3.1 on Glassdoor. That's actually not bad, considering most of those reviews are left by ex-employees.

That's probably because they interviewed hourly employees and not percentage employees. AIM does a lot of subcontracting. What that means is a company hires them to do their daily deliveries instead of getting their own trucks and drivers. This is also known as dedicated services. So in essence, the employees never deals with AIM. They deal with their customer whoever that may be. They are dedicated to work only for that customer and their deliveries.